RUF87

On paper anyway.

Well Lex, the question of whether I can take a stock GS400 with my TLS is over.

Here are my offical 1/4 mile times from last nights Ultimate Street Nights at the Texas Motorplex.

R/T - .796
60' - 2.261
330' - 6.222
1/8 - 9.456
MPH - 77.73
1000 - 12.280
1/4 - 14.659
MPH - 93.95


And as you will recall, the guy with a GS400 that ran against one of our guys ran a 14.89.

Now I just need to finally meet one head up and go for it.

Note: I have no CAI, Headers, plugs or any other form of engine mod.

Ruf

J.T.'s 3.2CL

You will loose if you race one on the highway at speed. More than likely you will also loose if you race it from a stop. Ask Rominl, he has both.

RUF87

Dude, look at what was said.

TLS - 14.658
GS400 - 14.879

The GS400 was slower on a professional drag strip.

Perhaps your friend has one of the slower TLS's that run low 15's.

Bottom line I beat the GS400's time, and did it 3 more times that same night.

BTW- I pulled a 0-60 time of 6.18sec as well. And several of the other TLS's and CLS's with us beat his time.

Nuff Said! Type-S won big last night.

Ruf

J.T.'s 3.2CL

I'm not trying to put down you or the TL-S, but the GS400 would pull away after the quarter mile. It would be close if the cars didn't race over 100 m.p.h. Street races are different than track races, anything can happen.

Nov/98 Car & Driver

Lexus GS400
0-60 6.2
1/4 14.8
0-100 15.8
0-130 24.5


July/2000 Road & Track

Acura TL-S
0-60 6.2
1/4 14.8
0-100 16.0
0-130 36.9

TL-S Man

Nice quarter mile kill--but J.T's 3.2TL mentions a good point: the Lexus's V8 torque combined with the TL-S's tall gearing will be enough to do damage over 90mph or so. Still, the TL-S does what it does very well, and it does it with a V6. We have nothing to be ashamed of!

RUF87

Those stats are meaningless on the track or street. That's what I'm saying.

My times were done on a prime time track and they beat the times posted by a GS400 at the same track.

So much for stats. It all comes down to the driver between cars that are close. Notice I said close and not equal. The GS400 is barely faster than a TLS in the 1/4, and that's where I proved my point.

I also never stated that a TLS would beat a GS400 on the top end. My arguement was with a Lexus guy who claimed a TLS could never beat a GS400 0-60 or the 1/4, and I've done both.

That's all that matters. Not some car rag post that 99% of car owners can't reproduce.

And, no to cars perform the same. So that .2-tenths of a second to 100MPH you stated is a rounding error when it comes to each driver and or car that cam off the line. Some are faster and some will be slower. That is a fact.

Don't misunderstand that I'm trashing the GS400. This is an over year long battle for me to find a GS400 to run and or publish offical track results. I've done the later, which rests my case without exception. My time was better than his . . .period.

So TLSers, know that you can hang and win 0-60 or in the 1/4.

Ruf

samkws

this is a 300hp V8...if it cannot pull against a 3.2L engine...it would be a real shame...

u gotta know how much ur car can go...and be happy with the quarter mile~

Edr0e

I have a 2k TL - P . Once in a while I would go out with a couple friends just to see what our cars are capable of.

All I have is Aem Cold air, Aem Pullies, com ptech springs, Wingswest body kit, and 18 inch rims... BTW my rims slow me down

One weekend many months ago I had the opportunity to race a
GS 400 ( bone stock ). My friend flagged us and we were off down a 2 mile road with no traffic.

First race - I had a good launch ( torque brake + gate shift ) beat him by less than a car before he let off at around 95mph.

Second race - He 's really pissed and comes back for more. This time we launched even. We were head to head and unfortunately for him my VTEC had to hand him his ass (2wice)!
Had to put on the EMERGENCIES lol!

His friend in an SC400 comes up and wants to race now!!! The SC 400 must be faster??? He had mods or something... Well anyways he beats me barely by maybe a hood.
So now im pissed!!! I go back and hit him up for a second run. It may sound funny but I MISHIFTED lol! Instead of shifting to third I shifted to fourth there fore missing a lot of the vtec in 3rd(piece of sh*t automatic).
So he reluctantly races me this time thinkin im gonna use nitrous or something...
So I line up to race, final race for the night...
I knew I was capable of beating this guy.

Off the line I instantly took a car lead ( good traction, no slip) and after that it was a game of catch up for the SC 400. In the end I beat him by a car (110mph)

The Lexus ' with MODS will rape us indeed.

But honestly, they are very heavy cars. And they are not that fast.

I lost badly to a GS430 w/ I/H/E. I wonder if the GS400 is faster or is the Gs430 Faster???

Edr0e

Yeah, I was was thinking in my head... I would rape the sh*t out of both lexus' if I had headers and 2 .75 inch piping. Surprisingly the V8's top end is not too impressive.... Unless it really hauls ass from 110mph +


The faces on these guys when I beat them was priceless. They had no idea what kinda car I was in ( debadged heh) One guy thought I was driving a Legend.

SilverBulletCLS

The GS400 is very heavy, and that is very much against it.

The best chance a GS400 has against us is right off the line, but on a roll and on the highway we will walk away from one. I ran one that was modded a friend owns. I was stock at the time. I was on his bumper the whole time when he floored it. I had 3 people he had 2.

Up to 110 the TL-S or CL-S will take any GS400.

RUF87

Please don't take offense to this, but 1/4 mile times are not just HP. You could have a 450HP car and if wheel, tranny, weight, etc are not designed for that sort of performance in mind, then you can still lose to a 250HP vehicle.

There was even a TLS with headers, and dyno'd with 23HP more than me, and he still lost. Most of it had to do with my wheels and tires. Some of it was driver technique, and after telling what I did, the races between us got a lot closer. So don't let anyone ever tell you that you just punch and go with an automatic.

So there is a lot more to predicting results than just looking at the HP and stuff. Trust me, I've been drag racing for over 25 years and built my own engines and cars.

Ruf

RUF87

Sounds like you had a great time.

The GS400 is certainly fast, but my point was that many people don't give us a chance.

Anyway, the war of words with the Lexus guy, 1SICKLEX has been a friendly one and I was just giving him some grief because I posted a time that most stock GS400 owners would be happy with. Not to mention most stock Type-S owners. :p I would have been happy with a time below 15-sec, but this was great as every TLS and CLS that night was running below 14.9.

Ruf

BlackShadow

Good kill Ruf!

Like the saying goes, you win some you lose some. I guess the gs400 lost that night.:p

The only thing I disagree with is top end. There is no way a tl-s can hang with a gs400 past 110+ mph. Remember, it's a V8 and there is no replacement for displacement! But down low, it is anybody's race because they are pretty close.

Come on sick, let the bashing begin.

Edr0e

So what do ya say about the 400 vs. 430. ??? I m thinkin 400 because its much lighter.

rominl

i guess i wouldn't participate as much in this kind of gs400 vs tls talk anymore. not that i am scared (it would be funny if i am scared when i actually own both) but i think it's pointless.

i never really say that the gs4 will smoke the tls, and in fact it won't. imho the gs4 will still win any time, i won't doubt abou that. from stop, rolling, low end, high end.

the gs4 has slow response too. going 5th gear on highway at 60mph, you floor the car and the car won't shoot for like 1.5 second. but the eshift on the gs4 is a lot faster than the sport shift on the tls. in fact the one on tls is stupidly slow imho. (this is only for gs4. gs430 has no eshift anymore).

the gs4 is heavy, but not that heavy for the hp. at the crank the tls is looking at 13lb/hp, and the gs4 is 12.67lb/hp. but don't forget the tq, gs4 has 310 which is quite a bit.

i haven't done any 0-60 on my tls, but my gs4 now has a heavy set of 19 on the car (when i say heavy, it's heavy). everyone knows having 19 on the car slows it down, specially when it's heavy. i did quite a few tries on 0-60, and i constantly get 6.1. with the stock 17 the car is a lot faster from stop i can tell you, and i have seen stock gs4 that does 5.8. for the record i haven't seen a tls with 0-60 of anything less than 6.1, let alone 5.x.

for the comment about "Surprisingly the V8's top end is not too impressive.... Unless it really hauls ass from 110mph +". that's some wrong information imho. the gs4 will pull at any speed. i have tried to pull both cars from 80. the gs4 pulls from 80, 90, 100, all the way to 120 in no time. that's not even using the eshift. and at 120 the car was still pull hard but i didn't wanna lose my licence. now that's not impressive? i can tell my tls can't come close.

"The best chance a GS400 has against us is right off the line, but on a roll and on the highway we will walk away from one." umm.... please, the other way. if anything, the tls or cls will win the gs4 from a stop. from rolling the gs4 has a much higher chance of winning. and "we will walk away from one"? i hope it's not the case that the gs4 has the parking brake on. you will never WALK away from gs4 i guarantee you.

and like i always said, these talk about what car wins, etc... you want to include the driver or not? if you include the driver, anything can happen. i never say the gs4 will smoke the tls, so i am not surprised with a normal driver on the gs4 it will pull some stupid time. and imho that's not really useful talk at all. if you wanna compare cars, that's more interesting. and by the numbers, sorry to say, but tls will not win the gs4.

the gs430 engine isn't that much heavier than the gs4. it actually reaches the peak tq at lower rpm, a good thing. but the weird thing is that the time by gs4 is slowing down every year, no one knows why. the 98 gs4 was record at 5.8 0-60, but for 02, it's something like 6.4? i don't know why.

another example. some while ago my gs drove the gs4 on i5 (long straight road) and i was in the tls "chasing" her. she pulled away every time i was closing in, and i was in sport shift already. i couldn't even get close to her at all. and she was just on auto gasing the car (sorry, not even flooring. she doesn't know how to race). but every time she WALKED away from me. that's speed like around 80 or so.

the very next night. i was in the gs4 and she was in the tls chasing me. after a while she ended up calling me and tell me to slow down, coz' she had a very hard time keeping up. me? i was enjoying the music with the car in auto and rpm never reaches 5000.

i didn't post the story here but the other night i killed a cls on the road. that's stock to stock engine wise and like i said i have that heavy ass 19 on my car. i was doing 35 on local talking to my gf and i saw this cl (didn't know it's a cls) closing in fast, maybe around 50 or so.

i waited until he was like 2 cars behind me and i floored the car. he wasn't able to gained on my at all and i was ahead of him all time. keep in mind i was pulling from 35 to win him.

on the next light this messed up and all-mad kid looked at me and wanted it again. sure why not. light turned green, he jumped out, and then i floored my car. in a split second i was ahead of him again and i was still pulling. i let go coz' i had to make a left turn. when he passed by me i could still see his angry face. oh, and i was in d5 too. if anything i think this story would worth some.

enough of my stories, i have put my share here. Ruf87 you got those times they are really awesome. seriously i don't know if i can pull that kind of time with my tls here in cali. did the gs4 run with you the same day on the same track about the same time?

RUF87

No question BlackShadow, the TLS really loses it when you hit 4th. The gearing jumps way too much, especially since there is a 5th gear.

So I might play with a GS400 on the big end, but really don't think we have a prayer, unless we are heavily moded.

Anyway, some folks seem to forget that car mags only published the best results for the GS400 and notice that there were very few follow ons as there have been with the TLS.

Also, some folks only care about a car magazines results and never consider the fact that no two cars will be the same.

In the end, all that matters is that mine was able to beat the average times that stock GS400s were posting. Which is what was originally stated as an impossibility by many. So never say never, anything can happen.

Ruf

patrick

Ruf, I think if you were racing in a GS400 against a TL-S, you'd probably win. The most important critical factor (IMHO) is the driver. You can beat the GS4 because of your experience and knowledge behind the wheel. Put another driver with as much experience/knowledge as you have (say you are racing a cloned version of yourself), and perhaps it'll be a different story.

RUF87

That certainly is plausable. I'll take that as a compliment. :p

And to be mostly honest about this, that was in part the whole story behind my discussion with Lex. That the GS400 is just a bit faster was not enough to ensure a win each time.

Also, the comment was made that no way ever would a stock GS400 lose, even to a moded TLS. Well that sent me on a mission because over my 25+ years of street and drag racing I know a slower car can win.

In all honestly, I'd expect a GS400 to win 7-8 out of 10 races with a TLS. However, you are right in that the driver does come into the equation. Now if you left both cars in say, D5, then the GS400 would probably win every race.

But with my non-OEM wheels and tires, I'd expect to beat a stock GS400 6-7 out of 10 times.

They really do make a difference. Just check out the post I did on the TLS thread
http://www.acura-tl.com/forum/showth...threadid=49675

My buddy Inferno's TLS is putting out 23hp more than me, but I won 3 out of 4 races, and the video is of the one he won.

So you can't always predict who's going to win based on HP and or some general statistic.

Ruf

Edr0e

GS400 is an all around great car! NO DOUBT. I actually wanted one but wasnt able to afford it being 19 and a full time student and all...

My bestfriend bought a GS300 and lemme tell you the interior is plush. I lub it The styling ... well its a little bulky, but besides that theres so much more after market parts available ie kits, turbochargers, etc.

Yeah, I agree you cant compare the two cars without a lot of controversy So lets just agree that a V6 vs. V8 is not a fair match. Put the GS300 up against our TL'S and theres no comparison.

J.T.'s 3.2CL

I have a TL-P with I/H/E and have two friends that both have GS400's and I race them all the time, and I lose each time as well. :o Some races are closer than others but past 90 m.p.h. I might as well quit trying. I don't mean to sound like a jerk doubting people's kill stories, but does any one elese find it hard to believe that a TL-P with only intake and pullies beat a GS400 two times in a row? Is something wrong with my car? If this is true I am sorry for doubting you but if not.....

Stock vs. stock the GS430 will win. That GS430 must have been hella fast because they run about 14 flat stock.

The 400 is only 22 pounds lighter.

rominl

amen

rominl

now the tls will not walk away from the gs3, it will RUN away from it

rominl

not really, in terms of speed the gs4 and gs430 are both the same, the gs430 is no where faster than a gs4. the gs430 does have smoother ride and shifts coz' of the larger displacement

J.T.'s 3.2CL

.

J.T.'s 3.2CL

I will stand corrected since you have one and know what your talking about. I always thought it was only quicker by a few tenths in the quarter. Either way they are both faster than us TL-P's.

rominl

i hope you were not referring to me. that's actually why i decided to get a gtech pro to test my car myself, and that's how i got 6.1 all the time

J.T.'s 3.2CL

Werd.

RUF87

Not you specifically.

But let me tell you that a faster time does not guarantee a win at the track.

Seriously. Look at the video link above. I lost that one to Inferno even though I posted a better (quicker) time. Inferno beat me off the line and that is a BIG part of drag racing. And that is why I don't care if some cars post a better 0-60 or 0-100 time. A drag race is all about who crosses the finish line first. That's what I'm talking about and that's why I KNOW I can beat a GS400 in a drag race with my TLS.

Let me give you an example:

Let's say you ran the 1/4 at 93.95MPH and another guy did it at 96.4MPH. Who won? Or let's say one car ran the 1/4 in 14.7 and another did it in 14.9. Who won?

You don't know who won the race because you don't have all the data. You need to know the reaction times to tell who would cross the finish line first. Again drag racing is about who get from Point A to Point B first. Not who get's from Point A to Point B the fastest.

I know this may be confusing to some, but that's how drag racing works. And that's why it doesn't matter that on paper the GS400 posts better times than the TLS. All that flys out the window when you line up at that x-mas tree.

Ruf

bronx02tl

I heard the wings west body kit adds like 15 hp at the wheels:p

Edr0e

What size piping are u using? You lose on bottom end w/ headers and bigger piping.

Allout

Ruf, In your example above, the person that crosses the finish line at 14.7 seconds beats the guy who crosses the line at 14.9 under a traditional "Drag Race" with both launching at the same time. A faster time through a fixed distance is still faster than a lower time through a fixed distance (1/4 mile) You are correct that a faster trap time does not determine a winner but a faster elapsed time does.

J.T.'s 3.2CL

Actually a lower e.t. can win. The winner is the first car to cross the finish line regardless of time.

edgalang

I agree...but there HAS to be some sort of basis for general measurement. Not everything in the world can be in a "grey area", because if that's the case, econoboxes across the world can claim they can beat exotics...albeit that MAY be true, in general it is not. Regardless, I doubt people here question your driving ability. I just wish I can sit in the same car while you do it (I've never driven my car like you have in that video).

Allout

To cross the finish line first, you must by default have a lower e.t.

J.T.'s 3.2CL

WRONG!

Dragstrips are relatively featureless racing venues: a straight, level ribbon of pavement 1320 ft. long, usually asphalt, with a concrete "launch pad" forming the starting line area and an ample braking area at the other end. The clocks that measure elapsed times (e.t.) for each run are triggered by light beams at the starting line and at the finish, exactly a quarter-mile away. Beams at the finish line also record top speed on the run, though this data is not used to determine the win or loss, but only provided as a measure of how well the vehicle has been tuned for the conditions. It all seems simple enough--until you realize that it's quite possible for the car with the higher elapsed time (or slower e.t., in racer parlance) to cross the finish line first and win the race.

Dragstrips use a countdown of lights, a series of yellow bulbs followed by a green in the classic "Christmas tree" configuration, to start each match. If the driver should dawdle a moment at the starting line after the green comes on, it will not affect the e.t. measurement, because the e.t. clock is actuated by the beam at the front tire, not by the starting lights. In other words, while the green light starts the race, it does not start the timing clocks.

Because the car's front tire can roll forward a few inches without closing the beam that starts the e.t. clock, the driver has an opportunity to get in motion before the green light actually lights up. Reaction times (the delay between the green coming on and the elapsed-time clock starting) are measured to three decimal places, and races are often decided by one or two thousandths of a second. In tight competition, the driver with the slower car but faster reactions might win--adding to the pressure to make a perfect run each time. But the margin can be shaved only so much: If the starting line beam is triggered before the green has lit, the red "foul" light glows and the driver is disqualified immediately.--N.S.M.

Edr0e

Bronx TL... You must not know how to drive your car:o
I/H/E should give you somewhere around 250 hp to the crank. You should easily walk away from a stock SC400 or GS400.

The driver really does count...

I raced a TL-S with Aem Cold Air. All i have is Cold Air, and pullies on the TL-P. It was a dead even race until about 80 mph thats when he started to inch away from me.

Same thing with the CL-S that I raced. Hes over on the CL board. His car is featured in SDSTREETRACING.COM. ALL HOOKED UP, I/H/E .. custom kit, slammed, gunmetal 19's, NX 80 shot.
This race was surprising to me... I ended up taking a half a car lead off the line and then he inched it away until he was passing me at around 90 mph. ( of course he wasnt squeezing )

You lose a lot of bottom end I noticed w/ Headers + Exhaust. But once you hit VTEC in 3rd gear thats when you start to catch up.


Im glad im selling my car soon Shes been thru a lot . But it still has only 35000 miles on it.

Edr0e

I know this is off of the subject... But I remember seeing a video w/ someone on this board in a Silver TL- P on 19' inch rims. He was in a parking lot using nitrous... only to eventually get harrassed by the cops. Well if i can remember, ive never seen a TL or CL burn out in 1st and 2nd like that!

This CL- S a couple of weeks ago... Aegean Blue ( nicest acura besides the graphics) Almost nicer than Ken2000's and ValueTL.
He had custom kit, his car was slammed!!! On gunmetal 19's. Nice looking car! He had SDSTREETRACING.COM stickers all over it...
Well I had an opportunity to talk to this guy. Hes running NX express 80 shot along w/ I/H/E. ( Hes crazy, he has NX EXPRESS Stickers on his car like hes being sponsered by them , just blantantly advertising to get pulled over.) He said hes had no problems with his tranny surprisingly...

Well I watched him race a Trans Am Firebird (modded). Ive never seen a J series motor peel out in 2nd and 3rd. It was amazing!!! He ended up barely losing to the trans am. It was a good racE!
He said he gets nooo traction off the line using nitrous so he engages it in 2nd.

I was amazed on how fast our J series motor sounded and looked. People were amazed on how fast he was. All I could hear from the crowds was " man that guy must have spent a lot of money on his car "

It seems that hes pulling low low 14's with the 80 shot...

Edr0e

Put it this way... I used to lose all the time to cars that i should beat... I35, E320, 323i's, IS300's, RSX -S, Stock integra GSR's <---these are friends who still think they can smoke me only cuz i didnt know how to drive my car then...

One day I was messing around with my car after I lost to a stock Infiniti I35... I came to realize that SS is slow.... D5 is slow....

So I tried D1 --> D2 ---> D3 gate shifting. It wasnt easy because you dont want to hit the rev limiter. So after a few practice runs I decided to give it another try against the I35.

The first time I raced the I35 in Sport Shift I lost pretty badly...

Its all good though! I came back and beat him gate shifting. You should have seen the look on his face as I was passing him =D 6ooo rpms screaming by him... I couldnt even hear his car.

You wanna hear something funny, my friend thought I added something to make my car faster within the 15 mins that i was gone like octane booster. He kept saying hes running 89 octane BAHAHAHAHA!!!

To this day I cant believe how much faster your car can be if you learn how to drive it.

I was out there getting smoked!!! only cuz i didnt know how to rev to 6400 rpms in first gear and second gear.

Sport shift wont let you rev your motor as high, i noticed only when the car is cold will it go anywhere close to the rev limiter.

Edr0e

RUF87 knows what im talking about It seems hes been drag racing for a while. Its all about the driver to a certain extent. Im only 21 but ive been on the import scene since i was 15... We drive sedans No doubt... nice ones at that Lemme tell you... for a daily driver its not bad.

You dont know how tempting it was to buy a WRX or even a Civic Hatchback and turbo charge it... I've watched several friends waste $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$!

My best friend who I grew up with, recently spent 22k on fabricating his race car... a 93 GMC TYphoon. It pulled 11.2 on 23lbs of boost. He has a fully fabricated 4.8 litre AWD MONSTER! He dynoed 450 hp w/ 4lbs of boost. Tubonetics T66 Ball bearing turbo. He ran his car exactly 3 times at the track before it blew up! Now he needs a full rebuild, and hes already driving a bucket to work 1989 Volvo Turbo Intercooled lol!

RUF87

BINGO! We Have a WINNER! JTs 3.2 know his . . .

Anyway, if anyone noticed, I've always been talking about drag racing. I've been into it since I was 16 and have been for 26 years. I even raced amature class with my 64SS Malibu and went to the Qtr Finals my 1st time out. What was interesting was that everyone of the Quick 16 class was running open exhaust, slicks, some with their seats out and many with NOS. I was full interior, exhaust, radial tires and no NOS.

I beat most of these guys because of my reaction time. It's something you can practice and will even help you on a street race. It's all about mentally tuning your reaction to some trigger. At the track it is a x-mas tree. Here you simply work on counting down the lights in your mind over and over, then when you stage, you count down and when that last set of yellows go on, you nail it, just before the green comes on.

At this meet the light went straight to green after the staging lights came on, which makes it a bit tougher to do. My usual reaction times with the x-mas tree is in the .540 to .640 range, but under those condiditons I was in the .685 to .780 range. The averages for many of the other drivers was in the .980 to 1.20 range. The math tells you that I still had about a .4sec advantage. This means a guy can run a 14.3 and still lose to my 14.65.

On the street, you need to look in on the cadence or movement of the starter. Kind of like a defensive lineman in football listening to the QB and watching for the first indication of the offensive lineman making their move.

The point is you are looking for every edge you can. Otherwise why bother racing someone. Just pull out your latest issue of some car rags stats and determine the winner. How much fun would that be? Not!

Anyway, no disrespect to anyone here. Just a point I was proving that driver differences and even slight variations between the same model cars can make a .5 sec difference an uncertainty as to who would win. That was my point with the GS400, it's not that much faster and I believed that I could beat one. That's all, nothing more, and I'm not saying the TLS is faster, just that I could beat one.

So get out there and practice your driving skills, you too may beat a faster car because of them. And when you do, yeehaw!

And watch a drag race event on TV some time, it will really help you better understand that drag racing is a lot more than just lining up two cars and punching the gas. It's a lot harded than most people think.

Ruf