stackowax

I have a 2000TL with 100K miles on it; the timing belt tensioner (I think that is what the mechanic said) malfunctioned in some way yesterday. I don't think the timing belt actually broke (you could see that, yes?) but the timing belt did come lose. According to my mechanic there is a chance that the valves (?) were not bent as a result but the only way to know that for sure is install a new timing belt, plus pump, etc. and start the car up and see what happens.

The reason he thinks the valves might not be bent is that I was stopped when it happened (the car stalled immediately afterword). I *did* start it up again (which took several tries) and drove it about 50 feet to get off the road and then turned it off. I guess his point is that if I had been flying down the highway and this happened I could be sure the valves are bent but since it happened when the engine was idling and hardly driven afterwords, the valves might not be bent.

Anyway, anybody think there is a chance the engine will be okay? Anybody know enough about this to predict what that chance might be?

webmastir

while you wait for replies, you might want to check out this thread. it may help answer some questions in the meantime..

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...lt+valves+bent

^very similar thing happened to another member.

stackowax

Thanks, just had a look. Frankly, could not understand much of it (I'm no gear head--not even close). I gather, though, that one ought to be able to determine whether there is a problem with the engine before replacing the timing belt and that this way of proceeding would save labor charges if a new engine was needed?

stackowax

If I can follow up my own question. Suppose it needs a new (used) engine. Reading the linked thread above it would seem like it would be better to have your own engine rebuilt than to by a used one whose history is unknown. At least I know that I changed the oil every 3500 miles and did all of the regular service. True, my Acura dealer did not do what they were supposed to do at these regular services (for example, recommend changing the timing belt based upon time rather than mileage). But, other than this major snafu, the car has been well maintained. I don't know what it would cost to rebuild an engine but supposing that is possible and it is not to outrageously priced, wouldn't that be the better option?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

there is a chance that they may not have bent (being that you were at an idle, but really the only way to tell if they are bent is put a new belt on, and see how it actually runs and such (or at least a new tensioner on it), then see if it runs good from there,
if so, then get the whole timing belt done and such (you are close enough to it anyways), but if not so, and the valves are indeed bent you can decide where to go from there then (i would rebuild instead of a new "used" motor, and basically it would be doing head gaskets as far as labour goes [plus a little] and not a "FULL" rebuild)

and as you say you *did* start it afterwards, to say you may have also bent them then, if you had been lucky to not have bent them the first stalling (but thank you for being honost in what you did afterwards)

yes it would be in that you know the exact history of the engine (with oil changes and stuff [and most people go quite a bit beyond 3500 on oil changes]), but it will proably cost a slighty more, but not that much

stackowax

Thanks. Last question I guess is whether it takes some sort of special expertise to rebuild an engine. I think the shop I go to is pretty good but I'm guessing this isn't something that is done all that often. Are there specialist in engine rebuilding or head gasket repair or whatever? Or is this sort of thing more routine than I think.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

expertise not really, but you have to take your time and follow a couple of exact procedures (and know what you are doing). but there are experts; they are called engine machine shops (but normally they only rebuild engines on a stand and not in the car [they get sent engines by regular shops]), and yes any competent shop should be able to do it (and rebuilt a couple of motors over the years, just not as many as a machine shop though)
your shop will proably (should be, and more then likely will be, some might be able to do it inhouse, but not many) pull the heads off to get rebuilt by the machine shop (to rebuild the heads, which is proably all that is damaged (plus timing belt) (and leave the engine block still in the car)
common, sadly kinda is (i am an auto tech, so i see how alot of people maintain there cars), especially with people who do not like to do preventitive maintence (yours seems to be more of a uncommon case though), but a more likely scenario would be, is bad head gaskets (which some engines are notorious for ), and head gaskets entail the exact same labour (minus the labour to completely rebuild the heads and such)

fsttyms1

Thats not true. You can find a used low mileage motor MUCH cheaper than you can have yours rebuilt (400-800 bucks). DO the timing belt and regular maintenance on it before you install it and you will be fine. 3500 mile oil changes arent needed and something you really dont need to worry about.

stackowax

Any suggestions as to where I can find low mileage engines in this price range. Are there known "reputable" merchants in this arena? And, sorry to pepper you with questions but what is regular maintenance *before* installation?

Nersh7

ebay it, there is one right now for $300 TL type S auto

01tl4tl

there is 100 percent chance the valves are bent- it was running when the tensioner pulley failed yadayada-
the pistons come up and find an open exhaust valve or 2- BEND bang boom engine stop!

Not worth rebuilding that engine as possiblity of further damage internally like piston- rods bent-shock damage to rod bearings etc
You are WAY better off getting an engine from a car with rear end damage- not front crash as that can damage engine too

maitenenace before install is the 105 service-= new water pump-timing belt- all its related tensioners and pullies- spark plugs NGK Iridium, thermostat and radiator hoses
Of course it will get an oil change
Its easy to work on an engine sitting on the bench rather that stuck down in the car

Get out the phone book and look under auto repairing- find smaller sized ads for private shops that have a honda or acura in the list of their specialties
Go in person and ask how many they have done in this type situation- what do they replace, total cost
They can buy the engine and get a warranty with it for you too

Guess the rest of the 00-01 owners better get on this project- all this time we were told speed kills- and it was really age kills!

01tl4tl

start with local junkyard- now called auto recycling- to get the right engine
Not all are plug and play swap on a 2000

01tl4tl

anyone saying they need to do $1000 of work to see if its destroyed or need another $1500 because thats the only way to test it!!!!!- is testing your abilty to know truth from holiday bonus for the shop

there are simple non-destructive test that can be done to know if its dead, which it is or will be even with the money put into it---6 months down the road something else goes

rcb2000

Is there an inspection hole for the timing belt and it's components? or does it have to be taken apart to check? I just got a TL with 115K and have no clue what maintainance has been done to it. I'm well aware belts don't last and it has to be replaced before it goes and looses a tooth or breaks.

01tl4tl

you cant tell much without seeing the inner portion of the belt by removal

acura says 7 years 105kmiles and many have gone much farther within the time limit, and some well over the time limit
there is supposed to be margin for error,, but if the car was used in high temps or other severe conditions- that can age the belts and the critical tensioner faster- in which case acura says 60kmiles

if you recently bought a TL with 110+ chances are 100% it needs the timing belt
Unless the former owner showed you a receipt, they dumped the car when dealer said $1500-2000 for the service

stackowax

What year engines will work on a 2000TL? Just the 2000 model or will later "second generation" model engines work? And is an S Type (from 2000 or any other year) simply a drop-on replacement.

01tl4tl

call the wrecker- now called automobile dismantling and recycling- see phone book
they know what crosses over and what will need extra parts

stackowax

Just an update: they tested the the pressure in the cylinders and four of the six cylinders were fine and two had no pressure at all basically. So my mechanic's advice is to fix that part of the engine that contains the two damaged valves--the cylinder head?--I wish I knew something about engines so I could say exactly what the part is (but I'm guessing everyone on here knows what I'm talking about). This involves getting just that part off an old engine, sending to a machine shop to make sure everything is as it should be, and then installing it. Anybody think this is a crazy idea? A good idea?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

crazy??? no that is pretty standard procedure for bent valves (and like people have said you can get an used engine for cheap, you will still have to pay for the labour to actually remove and reinstall the whole engine (and tranny has to come out too, since they're bolted together] versus just the removing, rebuilding, and placeing the cylinder heads back on [where just the top of the engine has to be pulled apart)

but anyways:
you have bent a couple of valves (what the black arrows are pointing to, there are 24 valves total on your engine [12 intake, and 12 exhaust)

and the valves are in the cylinder heads (the gray part above the pink line i painted [needed a unique color to diagram] and that seam like thing that you see even with the pink line would be the head gasket,

so the cylinder heads (you have two heads on your engine, one for each cylinder bank [the V in V6] has to be removed in order to get those bent valves out to be replaced with new ones



just ask if you got more questions

01tl4tl

check the price of what they want to do - which appearently is remove 1 cylinder head for replacement of 2 exhaust valves and valve seats to send to machine shop

If 2 are bad/BENT! only an idiot has just those 2 done while the whole head is there in your hand- must replace all the seats and valves as needed
Doing less than a full job will make it run bad- doing only 1 head will make it have issues down the road
Its about balance

Check junkyard for price on replacement used engine complete- and if they install them how much for that

On the acura- its an `Interferance engine` which means that exhaust valves WILL get bent when a t-belt breaks- the pistons have a little pocket on top to make an exta few mm clearance just for normal operation!
imagine what happened when the open valves impacted with the rising piston-at several thousand rpm.. and more than once....
Im telling you from personal experience working on cars a long time and having seen this problem- 6 months from now its going to have more problems- if it even runs after this work--doesnt sound like this shop is too smart- or they want to make money now on work that wont hold- then charge you again when it fails

01tl4tl

that diagram is an excellent way to understand the issue- the piston hits the stuck open valve (the camshaft isnt turning) and sends a shock wave into the camshaft above the valve- that is what rotates and opens the valves
It also sends a shock wave downward to the cranshaft- the thing the entire engine rotates on
Those parts dont like abuce like that AT ALL
piston damage- rod-rod bearing-crankshaft-camshaft-and their respective bearing all getting hammered
Would you feel safe taking that to redlne after that experience

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

if that happened to my motor i would have absolutly no problem to take it to redline afterwards, most of the time the piston has no damage except for a couple of little nicks on top of the pistons (a nick or two usually for each valve), and like he said it happened when he came to a stop, so idle, there is not quite the same amount of force behind it if say the t/belt broke at 6,000 RPM

(but i have seen a mitsi 4g63 with holes punch through the pistons before though, but they were also proably revving the shit out of it when those valves hit)


also you make it sound like those valves got slammed into, when in reality they were proably just glanced, and bent ever so slightly where they can not create a "perfect" seal anymore, but they can still pull up out of the way of the pistons



and like he ^^ said both heads need to be pulled (did not fully state that in my posts) and sent to the machine shop to be rebuilt and not just one, kinda pointless to have a perfect head, and the other one with 100K on it (yes the rebuilt one has a 100K on it too, but would have been rebuilt to "like new" condition)

jperdoch

Personally, I think that if you can find a low milage motor, it is probably cheaper and safer to go that route.

If you trust the mechanic and want him to at least pull the head and inspect the piston for damage first, you can go that route too...

01tl4tl

fries- I respect your knowledge but must ask- have you ever seen one of these engines inside after the valve gets bent? the exhaust valves will be the biggest worry and can be literally bent a few degrees on its shaft to head connection- so its not just a soft seal its no seal at all and each time it gets hit it shock waves the camshaft and all the bearings take abuse

The OP states the shop advised 2 cyls next to each other with zero compression- but they should be reporting on leakdown- cant turn over the engine with bad belt and already broken parts~
That sounds fishy and not a good sign for the engine
My other concern with this shop is their desire to do the water pump/timing belt job just to see if there is other damage- thats a TOTAL scam on the customer- recently a ziner has similar situation and after 1700 they wanted another 1500$$$
I was in the biz a long time~ it causes ulcers in decent people

The recess in the piston top gives it barely enought clearance--so close they had to cast indents into the piston tops!!
I have seen valves that got way out of adjustment actually contact a piston- so Interferance Engine really earns its name with the acura

There are still unknowns on this car but so far I would be inclined to go with a different engine

Some of us can replace anything on the car and fixing this would not be a big deal- the labor hours being the biggest expense after the head work, or drop a new motor in when this one blows
Others are stuck with scofflaws running shops

01tl4tl

note: the valves dont sit flat on top of the pistons- its a pretty steep angle so when the valve does make contact its on an edge- thats why they bend

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

yes i have seen the inside of an engine

and yes i know about the tight tolerence inside engines, and normally the piston will hit it the hardest the first time , then not hit it again or not as hard, because the edge that hit is now pushed farther up where the opposite edge is now pushed down further into the cylinder, see next post and let me draw up a little diagram to show you knida what i mean.
also engines will still run with bent valves but not very well at all, so there is still some sort of seal/resistence to airflow, especiaclly if you rev it, Rajca and Civicdriver drove a couple of thousand miles each on their engines (bent valves from missed shifts [overrevved]) so the pistons are quite strong when they do hit the valves

like what i said before, they need to at least put on a new belt (you proably can reuse your old belt temporarily depending on if it is missing any teeth or anything [just enough to actually check the motor out)(really tensioner though as said before) to be able to actually turn over the motor, but i did not say they had to do a full timing belt job just to see what is all damaged, just that they needed to put on a new tensioner to check it (so no new waterpump, bearings or anything like that just yet, till it is fully decided on what he is going to do with it, after the condition of the motor is accessed)

out of adjustment valves hit the piston i've seen a supposealy (sp?) NON-interference engine hit it valves and bend 12 out of the 16 (a 4 cylinder) when one of the idlears seized up and actually snapped the bolt which was holding it on (it actually siezed to the bolt too) (they had declined that bearing in a earlier t/belt job so it bite them in the ass for trying to be cheap on the first job ), but anyways they had proably hit due to the carbon build up on top of the piston, it was just enough to make them hit


i will say there is labour in pulling the heads and rebuilding them, but their is also alot more labour in having to pull the whole motor out (with the tranny too, might not hurt to actually change the tranny at the same time as PM), buying a "new" motor, then transfering all the accesories to the new motor, and catching up on the maintence on the new motor (easier while it is out ) and haveing to stuff it back into place
and like he said he did oil changes on his motor every 3k, not very many motors actually get treated so nicely, so it has kinda unknown maintence on the new on, so i would not completely give up on his motor (now if it has a hole in one of the pistons, then i would say definetly get a new motor then, but from what i have seen in my experiance, it is not likely especially if it died on him coming to an idle

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

i switched around the valve colors to show how they would be more then likly sitting (yes it is kinda exagerated, but easier to see)

01tl4tl

I meant seen inside a TL engine with bent valve issue- not just any engine~
And I forgot to mention carbon buildup as an additional factor in raising the piston height and reducing the valve clearance--SEAFOAM!!!

Yes you can run a while with problem getting worse-Ive seen them driven and revved with a shredding belt- right up to total failure
It does make everything worse
I also assume customer has underreported the event- or drove with the problem without knowing until massive failure
If its tensioner as in this case- thats really bad-

Maybe I find it easier to work on engines removed from car- no need to remove trans with it in this case

The cost of a shop installing a new tensioner and belt just to find out other things are bad,,and the 2 with zero compression are a bad sign

I would say find out exactly what test the shop ran and go from there- we need more info
Perhaps the OP could move his modem closer to the car?

01tl4tl

Its not too much labor to remove the head on the side with 2 bad readings and inspect
Hows that for a compromise fries?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

for that non-interference engine with bent valves GOOD LUCK to actually get the customer to be willing to pay for it to be seafoamed (i like BG stuff, but same result it's cleaned inside)

most customers do under report things, like on that non-iterference engine that bent the valves, they never heard a noise :lmao: from the engine tilll it died, or they just don't pay attention to it

but yeah driving it with it already damaged can easily make it way worse then if it was just fixed right away

yes engines are easier to work on when they are out of the car, cause you don't have to lean over anything, but kinda hard to convince a customer of the extra hours of labour (sometimes 10+ hours which is basically $1000+ extra) to R&R it

about the only thing that you can do with a missing t/belt is a leakdown test, but that could easily be skewwed by you not turning the cams to exactly were they are suppose to be for that cylinder, so part of my reason for at least getting a t/belt on there, to put everything back in time/sync

yeah more info can definetly help from waxy as to what test and stuff the shop did

01tl4tl

I meant seafoam for the rest of us~ as a prevention

we have interferance engines where a carbon buildup will contribute to problems like raising the compression and lowering the valve to piston clearance

My Honda 2 wheeler requires `decarbonizing` on a frequent basis- per its owner book

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

and getting the carbon off the back of the valves too, which likes too soak up the fuel (takes longer to start with carbon there, due to the carbon soaking up the fuel first, but also you should get better throttle response too)

also a quality gas (with enough detergent) can also help minamise the carbon buildup inside the engine, if not even eliminate it over a peroid of time, but yeah most people geneally look for the cheapest gas, so not really worth it to count on that

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

and i just remembered i have seen the inside of a J series motor (a J35 out of a 01 odyessy), it was like 3 years ago though, so don't remember it too well
it did not come in for bent valves, it had been run out of oil at only 120K, and it did not leak ethier, but had burned it off (last oil change was like 20K over (by the sticker on the windshield) when we rebuilt it (and first time actually seeing the vehicle,

but yeah i don't work on too many j series motors (it's not what comes into my work) we have like only 5 of them that come in and 3 of them are like on a as needed repair scheadle if you want to call it that; next one only has like 50K on it and the guy hardly ever puts miles on it (mainly uses his motorcycle during the summer, and even then only works like a mile or two down the road from his house; last one is mine that i just bought off a customer, and even then he made sure to be in for an oil change every 3k, and we did his t/belt at 90K, so it should not be having to be opened ANY time soon (i want a 3.6 stroker though)


so 4 out of the 5 have never been cracked open, and fifth was for oil issues not valves

stackowax

Sorry to check out--ton of stuff to do this weekend. Just to fill in a few details, with apologies to 01tl4tl in advance. The shop did go ahead and replace timing belt/tensioner/water pump etc. So the compression test was done with those things fully installed. (fwiw, they think the proximate cause of the problem was the water pump seizing/failing). The cost for doing this was $900 and they are saying it will be another $1200 to fix the engine. It did sound like, though, they were only going to pull one of the heads, not both. I'll check on that. Sounded to me like it was going to be closer to $3K to get and install an engine. Which they would do but it was my mechanic's opinion that that wasn't necessary given what he was seeing from the compression test that were run.

stackowax

PS: I've put sub-91 octane gas in this car maybe two or three times over its lifetime, so this engine has seen almost no low-octane gas.

PSS: I guess this would fall into the category of under reporting but I did not mention that there have been some issues with the transmission recently. Some slippage when shifting into 3rd, I think. The shop did indicate that they picked up a transmission related code when they ran diagnostic test. So it is going to need a new transmission. This shop doesn't do transmission work though; they thought that it might be best to have Acura do it since they thought that Acura would probably provide a three year warranty. Other wise, they recommended taking it to a place I had heard of before--might have been AAMCO, to see about rebuilding it.

stackowax

One more comment/question: unless I'm misunderstanding what the shop is doing (and/or don't understand what is meant by the term "rebuilding") they are not rebuilding the head on the side where they know the valves have been damaged--or at least not the head that is on there now. They are replacing the current head with a different one--getting a head from salvage--making sure it is in good shape (by sending it to a machine shop) and using that instead of the one that is there now. So what exactly would be accomplished by pulling the other head and rebuilding it?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

on getting at least (the very occasional tank of lower grade is not going to hurt it, it is when it starts getting lower grade on a repetitive basis), next thing is what brand of gas do you put in, cause that helps too (Shell geneally seems to be the best , but alot of time is on the higher end of cost of per gallon which kinda sucks but that is what i prefer to put in mine, cause it geneally runs it's best)

so they don't remove and replace trannies , you can buy a remanufactured tranny from acura, so all you do is swap the trannies out and send the old/bad tranny back to Acura/Honda (don't even have to wait for the old one to be rebuilt); and you should still get the three year (36,000 miles too, depending on if the dealer records the mileage and stuff and proably will) warrenty on the transmission itself if your shop installs it, but not the labour because it was not "INSTALLED BY ACURA"

about AAMCO, i would avoid it like the plague; try this:
https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-cl-transmission-recall-q-55/tranny-nightmare-please-read-1st-744964/

gives you an idea on how they do things


btw: the tranny is not related to the t/belt in any way, so no problem there, but like i said before is that if they do happen to replace the engine, it would save you quite a bit of money in labour if they do happen to replace the tranny at the same time (the tranny comes out at the same time as the engine and already has to be unbolted from the engine)(basically only would have to pay for the price of the tranny)

and to help you with the tranny, have them replace the fluid (only use Acura/Honda ATF) and the filter ($$$ little sucker, but worth it [mine has been basically completely plugged before; did it at like 102K, which got rid of some harsh shifts]) on it (it is on the top of the tranny, right under the intake tube to the airbox), it can bring some life back into the tranny, and be able to put off replaceing it for a while

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

rebuilding the undamaged head would be like replacing the valve stem seals and such, so the engine does not internally leak oil and such, and burn it off, and also mechanically cleaning off the back of the valves

as far as your current head being rebuilt it proably be right about the same price (if not cheaper) to rebuild it (then it would be in like "new condition, not just some used head)with a couple of new valves, valve guides and seals, then it would be to get a wrecked car's old head

and as far as pulling the head that is undamaged, you want every cylinder to run exactly the same as the others, so it is smooth and runs it's best; and one way to gurentee (sp?) that is to pull and rebuild the undamaged head (and the engine is already half way apart anyways)

if they are just going to put on a salvaged car's head, i would almost rather see them to just get another motor to put into your car


btw: rebuilding is kinda like remodeling a house, you remove all the bad stuff (damaged), and install better stuff (undamaged), while doing a little bit of PM (preventive maintence) of replaceing things (like the valves seals mentioned above), that would otherwise be a pain in the ass to get to when everything is reinstalled (like bringing the electrical system inside the house up to code while the drywall is already ripped off the walls) (or replacing pipes [plumbing] that are not quite leaking yet, but you can easily tell are badly corrided (sp?), and won't be long before they start to leak)

01tl4tl

here is my opinion as a former service writer and tech: This shop is bending over the customer big time
Since its put back together- a compression AND cylinder leakdown need to be done to check the rings for damage

they need a different head because this one got hammered BIG time and is beyond repair~ warped? thats heat damage
That should be a giant red flag!! as to what else may have been hurt

If the water pump was the primary failure the engine has probably had some serious heat - as pump is seizing it runs slow or starts and stops- abusing the tensioner pulley and eventual shredding of belt or breakage of parts as happened--which damages cylinder heads as well, and ring problems etcetc

Fries can agree on this point?

100k and trans gone- thats normal- $2500-3500 for trans from acura with 3/36 on the trans itself- about 4 grand installed
rebuilds at private shops 2500-3000
Acura gives you a new case with better oil passages than the ones made before 2005

I think it may be time to walk away after $900, cut your losses
or spend more than its really worth to repair the entire car-
and not having it repaired 100%- like doing both heads,, I would worry every day

01tl4tl

stack- was the recall for the trans to install an external oiler jet kit ever done?
If not- you may still be able to get a trans for free or reduced cost from acura