stackowax

Yes, this was done.

stackowax

And I did try to get Acura to replace transmission or at least provide one at a reduced cost and they refused. That was before the timing belt fiasco. And, fwiw, I'm pretty sure had I just gone ahead with the transmission repair, this timing belt thing probably would have happened anyway as no one from Acura ever even suggested doing the timing belt repair and I was still 6,000 miles from 105K and I assume they would have only done it at that point.

01tl4tl

thats why its 7 years or 105kmiles- you were pushing 9 years in a place with cold temps- rubber doesnt like hot or cold~

trans and other prob are not related

now the question is- do you want to spend another 5-6 grand on this car?
once they get the engine apart there are always more expenses~

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

not doing the normal qoute thing for this, it is easier for me this way (your qoutes are in bold)


here is my opinion as a former service writer and tech: This shop is bending over the customer big time
Since its put back together- a compression AND cylinder leakdown need to be done to check the rings for damage

more needs to be checked out now cause it is atleast in semi-running condition now (may run like crap, but it should at least run)

they need a different head because this one got hammered BIG time and is beyond repair~ warped? thats heat damage
That should be a giant red flag!! as to what else may have been hurt

normally you can just rebuild the head even with bent valves, but there are some heads that when they get bent valves, you just throw away, but i am pretty sure this is not one of them. ?warped? a little bit of warpage is actually pretty normal just from the normal heating and cooling of the motor, but in no way should it be excesive, which is normally an indictation it has been overheated (normally still fixable, but not a good sign at all)
and yes if the motor has EVER been overheated, it needs to be check over very carefully for any other potential damage

If the water pump was the primary failure the engine has probably had some serious heat - as pump is seizing it runs slow or starts and stops- abusing the tensioner pulley and eventual shredding of belt or breakage of parts as happened--which damages cylinder heads as well, and ring problems etcetc

x2, has the radiater ever been replaced before due to an accident or something, might have been run low on coolant at some point; the coolant helps to keep the water pump's bearings cool and stuff, which might have caused them to fail early from getting too hot at one point in it's life

Fries can agree on this point?

above or below???

100k and trans gone- thats normal- $2500-3500 for trans from acura with 3/36 on the trans itself- about 4 grand installed
rebuilds at private shops 2500-3000
Acura gives you a new case with better oil passages than the ones made before 2005

yeah i would say just go for the acura trans (which is what i am going to do when mine finally craps out (luckily fine for now), if i dont do a 6-speed manual conversion yet) you know that they are at least going to have better quality control then most places, and as said before if the shop does happen to put a new/used engine into you car, you can save yourself quite a bit in labour if they do both at the same time, alot of carryover labour between the two

I think it may be time to walk away after $900, cut your losses
or spend more than its really worth to repair the entire car-
and not having it repaired 100%- like doing both heads,, I would worry every day

considering that by the way it sounds like you have taken care of the car, it might be worth it to just fix it, cause i know you do not find alot of cars that have actually had there oil changed every 3,500 and been maintained very well, and the new/newer car will proably have to be caught up on maintence anyways, and there is a good chance that this one is paid off, and considering the problems it has currently, you proably will not get a whole lot of money out of selling the car,
so you would have to consider the amount of money you would lose on this car, compared to just getting it fixed, it just kinda sucks that both things kinda happened at the same time, and that they are both big things to fix, but it is understandable if you move on and want a different car

01tl4tl

my concern of cylinder head warpage comes from aluminum heads- with a bad water pump- so bad it caused failure of its tensioner and timing belt...
Why does the shop want to get another head?- must suspect something bad as a machine shop time is minimal, not like it takes days

The car has value to a ziner type person who can drop in another engine and 6speed

In my experience- once its been overheated - and guaranteed there was some unseen overheating going on--loss of coolant from water pump seal `weep hole` can cause temp guage to be fooled and read normal- all while you are driving another 10k miles with the leak--in about 6 months after replacing the pump other issues crop up
In this case the head gaskets will be new so thats the next thing that would normally fail after an overheat, the rest is whatever long term damage was going on
If we were able to really know the history on this problem, the type of oil used, was the coolant ever changed, the normal daily use-hours-miles, which seems to be low overall for the year

So since it is running the shop should perform more test- make a final determination of cost for repairs and transmission (is all that cost considered like making a car payment if one doesnt have 5 grand in hand and has to get a loan?)

That shop may not like pulling engines or trans- it does basic jobs with basic techs, (not real mechanics who fix things) so another shop would do all the work
take it to that place direct- dont pay a surcharge for them to take it over and get 30% for their time

Having been in the biz and retired from it- I try to advise on what scoundrels will try on you- especially with business at all time lows and holidays being slow normally-
auto shops are not making enough to cover expenses- the next car needs to make 2 grand or they cant make payroll or rent---
Every place has quotas- any less and they cant make the bills- are you the one who will save them?????

01tl4tl

we were agreeing on `above`- if its been hot- a good thing?,,,,no its not~

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

about the different head, ok i see what you mean now, and i was kinda like "why do they want to get a different head" too

yeah some people it is easier for them to fix it, when they don't have to pay for labour , waxy

yeah gauge is not always 100% accurate especially when it is not immursed into the actual coolant, but still should have been giving some tell tale signs, of like huge flucterations in a short amount of time
and yes more problems might pop up in time related to this

pulling a engine is not the biggest money maker a shop can have, but they can still make money off of it,
and basically any shop should be able to remove and replace a tranny or motor (if they actually have decent techs)
and for me pulling a tranny or motor is actually kinda fun, compared to the doing repetitive jobs like brakes and such (don't get to very often , cause i/the shop i work at, try and actually keep the customer's cars on the road by doing Preventitive Maintence

01tl4tl

I've seen air trapped behind the thermostat will cause a TL guage to read normal all while losing fluid thru the water pump seal AND may cause fan to not run

To ALL : If your temp guage goes anywhere but 1-2 ticks below half, I dont care in stop and go traffic or if fully loaded -ac on full blast- air temp 100 degrees- going uphill at 70~
the temp should stay constant- thats the job of the thermostat, radiator and coolant working in harmony

Any movement of the needle above half certainly bears investigation ASAP

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

some cars will actually go above the half way mark, till the fan will actually turn on, like domestics (only has high and off on the fan, so they try and keep it off as long as possible), but yeah on our cars it should not move a damn bit above that 1-2 ticks, let alone the half way mark
and about the a/c in 100 degree weather, you should feel the a/c turn off way (inside fan should still be on though) before the temp gauge ever even gets to the half way mark (goes into self protect mode, of keeping the engine cool; and much better for you to be hot for a couple of minutes, then to be standing on the side of the road in that weather)

stackowax

While I can't say this for sure, my best guess is that the history of this particular problem was very short. I had not noticed anything peculiar about the way the car ran--it seemed fine--until the day I had the timing belt problem. On that day, I started the car and it didn't turn over immediately and that was unusual. Tried again and it started (fwiw, the shop did check the battery and it isn't achieving as full of charge as it should--the battery is about three years old). Anyway I began driving and after about three blocks I began to smell something that I didn't quite recognize (it wasn't a burning smell and my best guess now is that it was antifreeze). The car's cabin also seemed to get humid rather rapidly. After a couple of blocks I came to a stoplight. When I stopped, the car stalled and died. I tried to start it up and this time it sounded horrible. I was at a very busy intersection and needed to get the car out of traffic so I tried it again. It did start but it was clear to me that it wasn't going to go very far, so I drove it about forty feet into a parking lot and shut the car off. Is it possible that something else was going on before the day this happened? Maybe, but as I say, the car was running well and I didn't notice anything amiss. (FWIW, the car did have a 92,500 service and Acura didn't catch any problems then. It was at the Acura dealer for an oil change and a State inspection at 96K and it was at that service that they indicated there might be problems with the transmission. But nobody flagged any other problem with the car.)

The longer history of the car is that it was purchased new and driven about 40,000 miles in its first two years (most of those miles were on the Mass Turnpike). Once moving to Pittsburgh, the mileage per year dropped significantly (work was closer to home) and the commute was about a 50/50 combination of stop and go traffic and highway driving. Roughly 22 and 35 miles roundtrip, every other day (minus weekends) until about three years ago. Maybe a long trip (600 plus miles) every other year. And errands on weekends. I can't remember when gas topped $4 gallon but it was at that time that I started driving this car (the Acura) to work (8 miles round trip in town) and my wife started taking the 4 cylinder Accord. During that same time period the car would have rarely been driven in the summer (couple of times a week maybe and then for short distances). The last six months it has been driven maybe a 1500 miles (I started taking the bus to work).

I can't say what type of oil was used; I can only say that it was only ever changed at an Acura dealer or a Honda dealer somewhere between 3K and 4K intervals. It had every scheduled service mostly at an Acura dealer but a couple of times at a Honda dealer (7.5K, 15K, 22.5K etc.) I'm assuming--perhaps wrongly--that the coolant would have been changed at regular intervals at these services. The Acura dealer in PA--Spitzer Acura--never changed the transmission fluid (what they say now is they always "checked it" and they saw no reason to change it, which I now know is nonsense). The Boston Acura dealer changed the transmission fluid at the 30K service. The Acura dealer in PA never suggested--let alone emphasized--having the timing belt changed. So, would I be surprised if they didn't change the coolant when they were supposed to? I guess not.

Not sure what else there is to add in terms of history. I'll say this, my history with Acura will end with this car. From my point of view, their service (or lack there of) ruined this car. I took it to them BECAUSE I figured they would provide the service it needed when it needed it. My working assumption was that Acura would know more than anyone what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. I could not have been more wrong about that.

stackowax

A correction to the above for clarity and accuracy (I can't edit it now). The sentence that reads "Roughly 22 and 35 miles roundtrip, every other day (minus weekends) until about three years ago." Should read "Roughly 22 and 35 miles roundtrip, on alternate days (minus weekends)...." The ending of the same sentence "until about three years ago" should be deleted. Whenever gas prices crossed $4 is when the driving pattern changed.

stackowax

Just to add one more point--I won't be buying any Honda product again either nor will I EVER use either a Honda or an Acura service department again. Once the (2005) Accord we have craps out--which I hope is a long time from now--I'll be going elsewhere.

stackowax

Okay, last point--in the form of a question. This whole experience raises serious questions for me about whether servicing a car is really cost effective. How many fewer miles would we have gotten out of the Acura had we never changed the oil--indeed never done any service beyond what it would have taken to get the car to pass the state inspection? Is it really improbable that we would've gotten a 100K out of this car had we not done any service at all?

01tl4tl

the book doesnt call for coolant change until the 105- but you were well over 7 years- so the coolant was acidic and losing abilty to really cool- the additives die in it

Changing oil every 3500 was good plan with the low miles trips you took, otherwise 5000-7500 is good for most of us
All those 10 minute drives are killer on the engine- it needs to be fully warmed up inside to dry the moisture from the oil and exhaust system- thats once a month 45 minutes on freeway cruise according to the book -if you drive less than 10 miles per trip/engine start

book calls for the 105 coolant change with new water pump, and most service writers dont do the math of age/vs miles, and dont know enough about cars to be doing a good job

IMO- the coolant went bad- the water pump wasnt properly lubed- the car made many many short trips over its life- possible corrosion of the belt tensioner bearings
leading to their failure with loss of timing belt--(condition of the belt will tell what the real failure was) then as belt was getting loose--or was stopped!- valves got bent-car ran bad- dies at stoplight when rpm is low and compression loss shows itself, then restarts to get you out of intersection and that was giving its life to save yours

I had a bad feeling on this car from the first post- some of them you just know are going to be a heartbreaker deal
trans and engine at same time- no help from corp= thats pretty much a bummer

Possible scenario: As the belt tensioner began to sieze the alternator wasnt getting full time turning- the belt can literally be stopped (funny burning smells of belt and hot LEAKING coolant- is that sickly sweet smell and humidity in cabin) all while the pullies still attempt to turn under engine crankshaft power- so the alternator is not putting out fully all the time= low battery and water pump not pumping and the water pump isnt turning so no cooling flow thru the engine

Maintaining your car is a good plan in most cases- this one has extremes of short use and non- use leading to failure

Yes you should be able to go 7/100 with little more than fluid changes in `normal` conditions- yours were not normal

replacement coolant bottle says to change at 5 years max!, dunno why acura says 7/105 on that unless they figured 20kmiles a year- 5 years and the big service takes care of eveything
Did mine at 5 years- coolant still `looked` great but was replaced anyway

Honda seems to make the more reliable car as far as transmission than the acura division and runs on 87

your point about inspections not catching the problem- with the lower plastics in place you cant see the water pump to do an inspection- nor would you normally do so-
just look at the res bottle - top it off possibly without saying anything to you and you keep driving without being made aware

Sorry this has all come down on you and a good reliable car comes into your life

01tl4tl

my remarks on `temp should not go above 1-2 tick below halfway` was about the gen2 TL only- other cars may vary but our car has rock steady control of temp in all conditions was the point I tried to make
Got to watch the guages~

stackowax

My point about the servicing/inspections wasn't that they should have done a visual inspection to look for a problem; it was rather than they should have done what the service manual calls for. Period. End of story. WTF am I bringing to an Acura dealer for if not to do the service when it was supposed to be done? I'm not a mechanic (clearly); I'm not the 'expert' here. They are. That's what they get paid to do.

In my judgment, you can't put a car out there which has zero tolerance for a belt breaking and not rigorously enforce the maintenance schedule. And you can't put a car out there with a transmission that is prone to fail and not even do basic service to the transmission.

Honda North America's response to this situation has been appalling. They would not even concede that the dealer had done anything wrong by not following Acura's own service schedule. Instead they blamed *me* for not servicing the car properly.

Every car I've purchased since 1989 has been a new Honda/Acura product, which is to say for most of my adult life. 90% of the service has been done at Honda/Acura dealers. This experience has led me to conclude that Honda is no longer a reliable/trustworthy company, if they ever were. As I said, I'm done with Honda/Acura.

01tl4tl

Not defending honda BUT-
you drove the car in the `severe service duty` of the service manual- if you dont tell the service writer that - so it goes on the reduced limits list- then how can they know what you need to have done?
Its hard to sell the 105 to customers- 90% decline, so without the miles they didnt bother

A `service tech` is low man on the pole who changes oils and looks for obvious things- brake pads at the wear tabs etc- while the really skilled techs are reserved for the big jobs similar to what your car needs now
They only get paid to do whats on their list and nothing more- if you dont complain they dont look past basics--no fluids on their floor? must be fine!--coolant bottle low--refill- dededeeeeeee

I know many service writers are nothing more than car or shoe salesmen who moved over to service- sales is sales- dont have to know squat about the product, just look at the list on the board and on in the computer- they dont look at the cars book!!

you will find shops dont always follow the book- which is pretty loose in what it allows- and will suggest items based on their experience

the trans doesnt fail on every TL- overall its not that large of a percentage of all of them made but enough to get Goodwill in most cases
Hidden in the maitenance book is things like ps and trans fluid changes at 60
and other things like valve adjust are `as needed` where you have to adjust them to know they needed it!- those are done with the 105 most likely- if the shops bothers to tell you
Would you believen the majority of shops even dealerships DONT replace the timing belt tensioner- saying `its fine now`--as if it will last another 100~

Again sorry to see you have such a great loss but I hope you can find a solid toyota or similar... and read the owner book carefully

01tl4tl

When you dealt with acura for some help on trans- was it the LA office or just the local dealer- was it service MANAGER working on your behalf?

And the `not serviced properly comment` - dealer or corp?- dealer has a record of all your visits and that should generate some goodwill too

Acura hates upset customers so its good to write them by snail mail with copy of this thread

phee

iTrader: (5)

op. u got hose with the timing belt bs. u can get a good engine for about 500 bucks and have a shop put it in for 600-700. job done.

phee

iTrader: (5)

also, the timing belt job should only be 1 hr of labor since the engine is out.

i can do it in 36 minutes, timed.

stackowax

It was the "regional manager" for Acura working out of the LA office--Damon Hambruch. The service manager supposedly appealed to Acura on my behalf but I would imagine they turned right around and said you clowns didn't change the transmission fluid, this is your (the dealer's) problem not ours.

The "not serviced properly" comment was made with full knowledge of all the service that had been done. Mr. Hambruch seemed to think that "servicing properly" included not simply paying for 30K, 45K, 60K service (and all the others) but a close review of my receipts to see exactly what fluids I was charged for and then comparing those receipts to the service manual. My failure to check for the presence of fluid charges is what led to his claim that I had not serviced the car properly.

Hambruch also thought it was my responsibility to see through comments from the Spitzer Acura service department that suggested doing the service wasn't necessary, i.e., "we checked the transmission fluid and it is fine." He believes that such comments are simply wrong, because "transmission fluid breaks down over time." But he also thinks that I was responsible for knowing that such comments are false. According to Hambruch, it all comes down to the customer.

Hambruch's position, and the dealer's position, is that neither Acura North America nor the dealer have any responsibility to insure the car is properly serviced. This is true even when the customer brings the car to an Acura dealer for that particular service. Nor does the dealer have any responsibility to perform x, y or z service at a, b, or c mileage even when they publish literature that says they do that service at those mileage points. All of these things were said to me by Hambruch directly and explicitly. (Of course, the idea that they would do something based upon time or driving conditions, well, that isn't even on their radar screen.)

This is what I mean by appalling behavior. Acura North America knows dealers are not doing the service they are supposed to be doing. They know customers are paying for this service and believe themselves to be betting the service but are not. And they find none of this to be problematic.

If they hate upset customers they have an interesting way of showing it.

stackowax

I don't like this five minute editing rule! But I do want to add it was Hambruch's whole approach to this situation that led me to believe that Acura has become completely untethered from any ethical moorings and that they have lost any sense of responsibility to the people who purchase and use their vehicles. Hambruch isn't getting this from no where--i.e., I'm sure he is not a "rogue" agent--he is embodying the corporate culture that IS Acura today. If he had said to me, "look, we're sorry but this thing is out of warranty and there is nothing we can do" it would have been one thing. But to blame ME for the failure to service the vehicle while admitting he is fully aware that this happens every day all across the country and he really doesn't care that it is going on and frankly isn't even bothered by it, that is another thing altogether. That's a company that has completely lost touch with its responsibility to their customers.

01tl4tl

I would be writing to acura corp- not phone contact- a real paper letter with all this info!
Acura dealers are suppose to be maintaining the cars to acuras published standards and I cant imaging blaming a good customer for dealers failure to folllow protocal!!!!

Write Write Write- !!!! they bs'd you from start to finish-

may want a lawsuit against the current shop for misdiagnosis too

stackowax

Thanks. I'll definitely be writing them. If they don't make some accommodations I'll go from there.

stackowax

Quick question about the was the "external oiler jet kit." First, would the installation of this kit ordinarily be accompanied by change in the transmission fluid? Second, was this intended to prevent the failure of the entire transmission or was the concern about specific gears--2nd and 3rd for example?

Finally does the oiler jet work by spraying transmission fluid (or as the name seems to imply oil). If the former, and the transmission fluid was not changed, wouldn't the kit be kind of pointless?

01tl4tl

the kit installed an external line with trans fluid that went into the normal filler hole on top of trans
Its intent was to provide better oiling to the 2nd gear set and shaft- which could break if subjected to severe heat- like snapping at 70mph and locking up the front wheels, very exciting stop~

A boroscope camera was used to inspect inside for any heat damage- if good then kit installed.
No fluid replacement was called for or needed
It was NOT a fix to the wearout problem from not enough disc and not enough cooling to them = early wearout that is the common failure
The 2005 case design change helped alot but still is not a cure 100%
Opinions vary as to what fix would really work but all agree its not happening yet

Ogolden1

Hey Stackowax, I just read your entire thread. I'm really sorry to hear about your problems; and am even more disturbed about the Corporate response and attitude.

I was wondering if you could update us about what's happened in the last couple weeks?