wildcat71

Does anyone know if E85 fuel will work in our TL's? are there any mods available for us to use this fuel? reason asking, some of the local gas stations have finally started selling this type of fuel, and the prices have been between $.40 to $1.00 a gallon cheaper than the "normal" 91 premium. just tryin to save some $$ at the pumps.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

You can use up to 15% blend but no more.

01tl4tl

NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
normal gas- 91 octane for the TL contains 10-15% ethanol- the max allowable in the book is 15% ethanol to 85% gasoline

E85 is 85 percent Ethanol and 15% gasoline- the exact opposite of what we run!!!
It has a much lower combustion explosiveness, making less HP, needing more fuel to go the same distance,
Its ruining small farms, the actual foods we all buy, and small countries ecomony already (riots in mexico)--- and they are not even into any real production levels!
Write your congressman- no food use for oil!

E85 is absolutely NOT for use in our car at all-
they are using it in Indy car racing because they used to run methanol- and needed something that showed flame when it burned- much easier to fight a fire you can see!
(why is the driver break dancing???) And they needed to seem friendly to the Earth as more people look at racing as a waste of fuel and maker of emissions- so the teams are struggling to make the same power as last year. Thats every driver and crews comments~
Hhopefully it will disappear,,, as just another multi billion dollar mistake- IMO

fsttyms1

rob-2

Even if you could run it, the savings would be lost in the lower mpgs.

If you're going to consider buying e85, try running 87 gas. I and many others do regular without any issues.

As it currently stands, I believe I'm of a group of drivers here getting better then EPA rated mileage. So cheaper gas plus more miles to the gallon equals savings.

cs_maan

I fill mine up with 91 because the total cost in the end is $2 or $3 more than if I would've went with 85 fuel. I did the math.

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

but I thought it was 91-89-87. Theres 85 octane gas where you live?
and yes the savings are minimal between the grades of gas. Acura suggests premium and thats what I pump. "My baby gets what my baby wants."

cs_maan

My mistake I meant 87 I have seen 85 at maybe ONE gas station that I've been to but maybe I misread, anyways I figured I'll start filling my 01 Camry Gallery Edition with premium too.

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

If it says regular is OK, then use regular. Studies suggest that using premium in a car that only asks for regular yields no extra benefits. I would only use premium at like chevron or shell since their premium has extra cleaning agents. So like maybe once in a while my mom's camry gets premium. Or you can bypass all that and put in some fuel cleaner and just pump regular all the time. I get fuel cleaner free after MIR.
And using top tier gas is also suggested. That goes for both the camry and TL.

rob-2

When I was both your ages I thought the gas mattered too. Then I got married, had real bills to pay, and the likes.

Enjoy the fun... it makes almost no difference. If you took the $5/week in savings and started to put it away for retirement you'd be better off then burning it out your pipes. Car will be dead long before you and it wont matter the gas.

01tl4tl

I sure hope you dont find that low octane gas has caused a burned valve and 600-1200$ removal and repair of cylinder head!

That kind of negates your 5 bucks a week savings (using less than 91 as required by acura) - when the car dies long before you do!!!

rob-2

You keep repeating this, there is no evidence to suggest lower octane gas does this to motors. A burnt valve would have a different issue, and this noise would not be duplicated with others who have always used 91.

Article for all of you who just read Tom's comments and got scared. http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...emiumgas_x.htm

totaledTL

I would be interested to read any evidence of this too. References/links, or have you actually repaired/witnessed a TL engine damaged in this way? How do you know for certain it was caused by 87 octane fuel?

pnoi521

You know theres a place in Sacramento that sells 100 octane gas. I think it's at least like $8/gal though.

rob-2

I'd like evidence as well. Say something is one thing, having creditable proof is another.

fsttyms1

IF the 2 of you would read, he didnt say it WAS the cause, he hoped it wasnt.

Its not rocket science though. Pings great bad conditions in the motor. Weather you hear them or not they could be there. The computer has knock sensors that are very good at looking for even the slightest ones. all it takes is 1 to destroy a motor. Simply put FOR THE LAST TIME the car was tuned for 91. It will run on 87 but its best for 91. The TL-P is LESS dependent on it than the type-s, but they both should be run on it.

fsttyms1

This kind of post shows me that you have no clue to what octanes do, but continue to argue that they make no difference.

rob-2

Well I've shown an article with many major auto people quoted, now you show something that states otherwise. That's how we go back and forth on a topic.

I've present evidence from sources who are more credible then anyone one this board. Opinions, mine, yours or anyone else's are no good unless they are back by facts.

The fact is (according to the article and others) that it's not a question of engine damage but rather performance.

I don't have to know a ton about octane to know that industry experts both in auto production and fuel say it's about performance.

Prove the concept wrong. Good evidence will sway me, opinions are not fact and hold zero weight in a debate. Facts speak...

fsttyms1

What are you looking for for proof? There arent going to be articles like that. WE ARE NOT saying it happened or will, we are saying it could be a possibility. Especially with the less than desireable fuel in cali. There is however proof that octane and improper tuning will blow motors up. FAST. (which is what our ECUs are doing to compensate) There have been thousands of motors blow up from pinging. Its what happens from detonation. Which is the result of octane and timing. Like i stated before, you dont have to hear it for it to be present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking

Tuners have been dealing with it since the beginning. Its the reason higher octane fuels were produced.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

Ethonal = epic fail

rob-2

Well considering the evidence I've put forward states that a motor rated for 91 can burn 87 without risk of damage, you would present a credble source that states otherwise.

FYI Honda accord with 10.5:1 takes Regular and so does their v6 at 10:1
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-...fications.aspx

Again, prove to us that the 91 oc requirement is not just a way acura is pulling out every last ponny from the motor.

Bearcat94

From your linked article:


I know, from experience, that BOTH the 2G (2002) and 3G (2007) TL-S will knock with 87 and 89; the '07 knocks with 93 on high temp days .


The article is generally slanted toward people with cars that recommend 87or 89 and choose to run 91/93 - for no useful purpose other than burning money.


You'll also note all the auto industry people say the car will "run" on 87 even if designed for 91/93. Yet no one talks about long term durability/survivability.

rob-2

Then you realize that this whole compression thing and regular gas required is a joke when you discover the regular 2000 TL has a 9.8:1 compression motor.

http://www.hondanews.com/categories/...0?archive=2000

So a Honda can run 87 oc gas, at up to 10.5:1 but an Acura, made by the same company requires 91. Yeah, I'm a marketer I know how this works. 91 is linked to higher performance cars, and by requiring they be filled with 91 helps bolster their image. It has nothing to do with compression as so often stated.

rob-2

Porsche Germany does and they have up to 14:1 compression

fsttyms1

i dont know why i even try.
Yes it can bur it. And Yes there shouldnt be a risk, BUT it can happen.

FYI the accord was TUNED from the beginning for regular. The TL wasnt.
YES It is a way of pulling the most from the motor. Ive stated that before. You dont listen!!! The car is OPTIMIZED FOR PREMIUM. IT WILL RUN ON REGULAR BUT AT A COST TO ITS OVERALL PEAK EFFICIENCY.
And like ive stated before some like yourself havent seen a difference in mileage. Others (like myself) have see reductions in performance and mileage (but according to you we are blowing hot air). Most would rather run what the manufacturer recommends and get the most from their motor.
Run what you want. Im done.

rob-2

Kris, I respect your opinion we really need some facts to back this up. There is too much that suggest there is no issue with running lesser gas. Yet many folks would tell you there could be damage to your motor. When such a statement is clearly not true.

Of course I'm talking about a NA motor. Forced induction I am to understand has lower tollerances for knocking.

01tl4tl

'I've present evidence from sources who are more credible then anyone one this board.


Better be careful with that kind of thinking and statement- !!!!

We have people here- and you have NO idea who or what anyone's real background is!-
or their real job- Or who races- flies- works for acura- does car testing for teams etc.
The talents of our members are many~
Some like to hide, and others play dumb- to avoid conflict and let you learn the hard way.

Relying on Mythbusters and wiki as your source of truth about what effects an acura TL, is a good way to have many problems in life--- IMO

I cant diagnose rob2s noise unless he moves the modem much closer to the engine!!!!, BUT logic says a bad valve adjustment makes noise right away, not months later.
And iirc, there has been change or improvement in this noise in the last few months of driving it- is that correct? loose valves get worse, so you wont want to drive it anywhere!!

Thats my experience in- lets call it 1000+ valve adjustment services on datsun z cars and bmw's. Get it right-- or its back in a day or 2 with a bad bad noise.

on robs car-- no test of oil pressure or compression has been done, that I know of- so the next logical thing is gas related damage to the valvetrain

All car gas starts as 87 then additives to reduce detonation- retard combustion- they raise the octane, are put into it. Run lower than spec and the ECU has to retard the timing even more- perhaps more than its program will allow-
Other car makers use different ECU to fit their country of use.

100 octane will NOT make a TL go faster or run better! I can get it at the track, and use special 100LL in the airplane- I know!!!
A supercharged or Turbo TL will gain mass quantities of performance on 100 octane, but a normally aspirated TL or other car will not gain anything for the price.
I see guys at the track with street cars at track days--thinking it all the time....we have to caution them, and let them put 20 bucks in----
only to find we had all tried this long before them!!!

fsttyms1

See post 22.

fsttyms1

AND AGAIN. Its HOW its tuned. The Acuras were TUNED for 91. NOT 87 They are OPTIMIZED for 91.

rob-2

Proof guys.

Tom - The engine was likely noisy right after the valve work as I've stated before, I didn't notice it. I rarely drive from outside the car . Lets all get some facts here so far we have opinions.

When a maker of high compression motors states you can run regular in them without risk of damage I consider that to be fact. Repair/working on does not qualify one to make statements about the design of the motor, until of course one designs motors.

Now unless someone is going to come out and say 14:1 is different between makers the physical restrictions of 14:1 cannot be debated. If we're talking about detonation, we're talking about the point at which fuel cannot be compressed further before it burns pre-spark.

If a maker, like Porsche who clearly states they build cars for premium fuel but run on any grade world wide. I would like to know what makes our 9.8:1 or 10.5:1 or 11:1 compression any different.

Yes, you can state ECU management but the physical difference does not change with different management. Compress the gas to far and it burns at the wrong time.

We still have not even begun to deal with the myth that 91 in a TL is required and where that might actually come from.

As the evidence thus far shows Honda builds higher compression motors to run on 87. Only their 'high performance' s2000 requires premium fuel and gets the most power pre litre of any production motor (or did until the 2.2l). So their older accord with the 3.0l getting the same power as the TL used regular.

I'm not buying they tune them differently, I don't think they have to. I think they slap a label on the car and program the ECU to get the max power out of the motor design for their advertising for 2XXHP. Then the 91 allows for the most HP and gives us all the feeling that we're driving something special.

You don't have to look to far to see how often premium priced items sell better. For example, there have been new niche sports magazines that have launched with a higher price tag then their competitors to give the purchaser the feeling they're buying something 'more'. We're talking about Acura, a luxury sports car maker. You believe for a moment that 91 (premium gas) and Acura (premium Honda brand) are ONLY connected by engine design. Not likely, it's called market positioning and brand image.

Lets all not be sheep here and get the facts out in the open. So far we have no evidence presented to suggest the car is in any danager of running on 87oc gas. Very much the contrary, we have evidence from many sources, as sited, that says otherwise.

On with the facts.

I hate cars

Direct injection motors can tolerate more compression for a given octane. No port injected gasoline engine in the world will run on 91 with a 14.0:1 ratio for long.

I hate cars

FI motors have a higher tendancy to knock, not a lower tolerance. Higher hp/torque motors are sometimes less tolerant of knock because there's already so much cylinder pressure.

I hate cars

This is widely known common knowlege that knock causes big problems. Not always right away but eventually it's going to hurt the motor. This would be like asking someone to prove that A comes before B.

01tl4tl

when rob adjust his valves next weekend and that solves his noise- I will shut up about using the correct specified grade gas,,, and as always- each is free to do what they want

I hate cars

The TL is tuned for 91 gas. It doesn't matter if it has a 8.0:1 compression ratio, the fuel and timing maps are for 91 and that's what it requires.

I commute in my car and I've tried every possible combination of gas and closely monitored it. You will get worse gas mileage and power with 87 to the point that it's cheaper to run 91 in the first place and you're not beating up the bottom end in the process.

Think about it, where does the reduced power on 87 come from? It comes from the knock sensor retarding timing to protect the motor. We don't have an octane sensor, the engine has to knock first, then the sensor retards timing. It does not retard it indefinately, maybe a second at a time and then it adds timing back again and it pings again and retards again and again and again lol.

Again, it is cheaper to run 91 octane in the TL.

The turbobuick guys are able to run the same boost levels on E85 as they do with C-16 race gas which is 116 octane. Only problem is you lose so much fuel economy with it, it's not worth it.

There are conversion kits that normall replace rubber fuel system components, bigger fuel injectors, sometimes a new E85 compatible fuel pump but not worth it IMO. Then there's the economy that it's tearing up too.

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

Where?
Not that im gonna get any, just curious to know.

pnoi521

I forgot. I think it was like... damnit nevermind. I killed my battery one time and the guy that came to jump it had a TL and some racing cars and told me abotu it. I think its at an Arco station. Arco over by winding way somewhere...

BTW this thread is ridiculous. You guys are just going in circles. He's never going to change his mind about using lower octane gas.

totaledTL

I do 'have a clue' what octane means- and if you''ll reread the post, it's apparent I'm not trying to argue. I didn't say they 'make no difference'. Just would like to read what those opinions are based on. This is a forum, right, so opinions and experiences are going to vary. Remain calm.....

01tl4tl

only the valve adjustment will tell~~

fsttyms1

Read what what opinions are based on? Why we should use 91??