Amsoil ATF review
08-04-2006, 07:35 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by TunedTL
Color is an indication of fluid oxidation, but it is a very crude method. Didn't Micheal see an oil analysis report of one ATF that was not seem burnt (no loss of original dye color) but showed severe oxidation in the oil analysis?
To me, not enough ATF means the not enough flow to cool critical part, which lead to higher temperature to increase wear. Why not make sure the limited amount of ATF that does get to those problem parts can survive the harsher temperature?
To me, not enough ATF means the not enough flow to cool critical part, which lead to higher temperature to increase wear. Why not make sure the limited amount of ATF that does get to those problem parts can survive the harsher temperature?
In this case I thought color was an indication of the particles that begin to
float once the clutch pack materials begin to break up.(?) A brown / reddish
color is what I noticed.
/Steve
(tranny replaced Aug 05 @49995. 12K+ on replacement...so far OK)
08-04-2006, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by vinovelo
In this case I thought color was an indication of the particles that begin to
float once the clutch pack materials begin to break up.(?) A brown / reddish
color is what I noticed.
/Steve
(tranny replaced Aug 05 @49995. 12K+ on replacement...so far OK)
float once the clutch pack materials begin to break up.(?) A brown / reddish
color is what I noticed.
/Steve
(tranny replaced Aug 05 @49995. 12K+ on replacement...so far OK)
Again, I think it boils down to personal preference. However, I am little surprised people are more than happy to put aftermarket synthetic engine oil but close minded to put aftermarket synthetic ATF. Yet it is our transmission has design problem that needs help
If nothing else, extended drain interval alone justify the switch for me 
08-04-2006, 09:16 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by TunedTL
Unlike engine oil, there is no combustion by-product that the transmission fluid needs to hold. I doubt <100 ppm of copper, aluminum or iron will cause color to change. In another word, change of physical property (not chemical composition) is suspected with the change of color here.
Again, I think it boils down to personal preference. However, I am little surprised people are more than happy to put aftermarket synthetic engine oil but close minded to put aftermarket synthetic ATF. Yet it is our transmission has design problem that needs help If nothing else, extended drain interval alone justify the switch for me
Again, I think it boils down to personal preference. However, I am little surprised people are more than happy to put aftermarket synthetic engine oil but close minded to put aftermarket synthetic ATF. Yet it is our transmission has design problem that needs help
If nothing else, extended drain interval alone justify the switch for me
08-04-2006, 09:26 PM
#44
Originally Posted by TunedTL
However, I am little surprised people are more than happy to put aftermarket synthetic engine oil but close minded to put aftermarket synthetic ATF. Yet it is our transmission has design problem that needs help.
Originally Posted by TunedTL
If nothing else, extended drain interval alone justify the switch for me
08-04-2006, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MikePA
I am a little surprised at people who think they know more than Honda engineers. I'm also surprised at these same people who think it's not their responsibility to prove their theory correct. Instead they believe others have to prove them wrong and if they dare to disagree, then they are 'close minded'. Additionally, people don't use synthetic engine oil to address an engine design flaw.
FWIW, I am the one that post links to actual UOA, hard data that proves Honda Z1 ATF that is toast <15K.
08-05-2006, 12:36 AM
#46
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so what's up with spending 10 dollars more on 3 quarts of ATF every 6 months???
drink 3 less starbucks coffee during the 6 months and there u go
drink 3 less starbucks coffee during the 6 months and there u go
08-05-2006, 05:01 AM
#48
Originally Posted by samkws
so what's up with spending 10 dollars more on 3 quarts of ATF every 6 months???
drink 3 less starbucks coffee during the 6 months and there u go
drink 3 less starbucks coffee during the 6 months and there u go
My opinion is if switching to synthetic tran fluid were a solution, the Honda engineers would have suggested that instead of tranny replacement.
08-05-2006, 06:03 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by MikePA
The issue isn't the cost of Amsoil, the issue isn't synthetic versus dino. The issue is will it prevent a tranny failure.
My opinion is if switching to synthetic tran fluid were a solution, the Honda engineers would have suggested that instead of tranny replacement.
My opinion is if switching to synthetic tran fluid were a solution, the Honda engineers would have suggested that instead of tranny replacement.
08-06-2006, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MikePA
The issue isn't the cost of Amsoil, the issue isn't synthetic versus dino. The issue is will it prevent a tranny failure.
My opinion is if switching to synthetic tran fluid were a solution, the Honda engineers would have suggested that instead of tranny replacement.
My opinion is if switching to synthetic tran fluid were a solution, the Honda engineers would have suggested that instead of tranny replacement.
No one is suggesting synthetic ATF is a solution to a bad design with mechanical flaws, we are discussing how to prolong transmission life. It is obvious what Honda offers and suggests so far (design, TSB, fluid) are not affective. The difference is some are willing to explore other options, some don't.
08-06-2006, 04:51 AM
#51
Originally Posted by TunedTL
The difference is some are willing to explore other options, some don't.
In another thread, you said you're selling you're car. So, why do you care about tranny fluid?
08-06-2006, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MikePA
Yeah, I know. You already stated that people who don't agree with you are close minded. More civil discussion, eh?
In another thread, you said you're selling you're car. So, why do you care about tranny fluid?
In another thread, you said you're selling you're car. So, why do you care about tranny fluid?
I want my transmission in good condition whether I want to sell it or keep it.
I have posted UOA links, exact quote from U.S. federal law, quote from TL's service manual, Amsoil flash point spec. I don't know what you call it, but still asking for "support" means these data don't matter, maybe because they don't reflect the opinion you firmly believe. But if you have an URL link, UOAs to share otherwise, please post.
08-06-2006, 01:17 PM
#53
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Don't make me close this thread...
Originally Posted by TunedTL
Who designed TL's problem tranny with in the first place? Who recommended official ATF change interval into the service manual yet having ATF fail 1/2 to 1/3 of supposed useful lifetime? And I have not even started to talk about oil jet...
No one is suggesting synthetic ATF is a solution to a bad design with mechanical flaws, we are discussing how to prolong transmission life. It is obvious what Honda offers and suggests so far (design, TSB, fluid) are not affective. The difference is some are willing to explore other options, some don't.
No one is suggesting synthetic ATF is a solution to a bad design with mechanical flaws, we are discussing how to prolong transmission life. It is obvious what Honda offers and suggests so far (design, TSB, fluid) are not affective. The difference is some are willing to explore other options, some don't.
Regardless of the "visual" condition of Honda Z1, burnt, brown, etc, I've never seen it cause an actual transmission failure due to fluid failure. Honda points out in a service guide that foul smelling and/or dark colored ATF is actually OK, BTW.
There was one sample of ATF-Z1 on BITOG with around 60,000 miles on it, a 5-spd Auto in a RSX, and the fluid was perfectly fine.
Originally Posted by TunedTL
Unlike engine oil, there is no combustion by-product that the transmission fluid needs to hold. I doubt <100 ppm of copper, aluminum or iron will cause color to change. In another word, change of physical property (not chemical composition) is suspected with the change of color here.
Again, I think it boils down to personal preference. However, I am little surprised people are more than happy to put aftermarket synthetic engine oil but close minded to put aftermarket synthetic ATF. Yet it is our transmission has design problem that needs help If nothing else, extended drain interval alone justify the switch for me
Again, I think it boils down to personal preference. However, I am little surprised people are more than happy to put aftermarket synthetic engine oil but close minded to put aftermarket synthetic ATF. Yet it is our transmission has design problem that needs help
If nothing else, extended drain interval alone justify the switch for me
Originally Posted by TunedTL
I think it is not logical to say nothing will work while one does not even try or even think about possible solution that listed here. Yes Acura has a pathetic design but does finger pointing lead to a possible way to prolong our transmission life?
Amsoil Flash point is 435 flash, if Honda says 400+ degree then Honda Z1 ATF will be toasted into ashes but Amsoil does not. If there is not enough fluid to get to certain critical place in the first place, why not to make sure the limited amount of ATF does get there can do its job better?
Yes fluid may not be the cause, but can anyone here have any scientific data that leads to the conclusion that deterioted fluid won't lead to further mechanical damage?
Amsoil Flash point is 435 flash, if Honda says 400+ degree then Honda Z1 ATF will be toasted into ashes but Amsoil does not. If there is not enough fluid to get to certain critical place in the first place, why not to make sure the limited amount of ATF does get there can do its job better?
Yes fluid may not be the cause, but can anyone here have any scientific data that leads to the conclusion that deterioted fluid won't lead to further mechanical damage?
However, lets get our facts straight first. Its highly unlikely that your ATF will ever reach 400F or 435F anyway, so don't worry about that.
Second, the flashpoint is merely THE flashpoint at which the fluid ignites, I believe. So, using that as your guide is somewhat misleading as the flashpoint reading will go down with usage due to volatility, etc...
Thus, please don't use the flashpoint as the sole guide to considering one ATF to be superior over another.
Originally Posted by TunedTL
Color is an indication of fluid oxidation, but it is a very crude method. Didn't Micheal see an oil analysis report of one ATF that was not seem burnt (no loss of original dye color) but showed severe oxidation in the oil analysis?
To me, not enough ATF means the not enough flow to cool critical part, which lead to higher temperature to increase wear. Why not make sure the limited amount of ATF that does get to those problem parts can survive the harsher temperature?
To me, not enough ATF means the not enough flow to cool critical part, which lead to higher temperature to increase wear. Why not make sure the limited amount of ATF that does get to those problem parts can survive the harsher temperature?
Originally Posted by TunedTL
Look, I am here to discuss this issue in a civil matter. I never claim that I know more than Honda engineers, it is a false accusation and false assumption on your part.
FWIW, I am the one that post links to actual UOA, hard data that proves Honda Z1 ATF that is toast <15K.
FWIW, I am the one that post links to actual UOA, hard data that proves Honda Z1 ATF that is toast <15K.
If you're referring to the UOA I posted of a AV6 recently, then no. The fluid was not exactly "toast," it was fine. But the wear pattern, on the other hand, was a different story and was of concern.
08-06-2006, 02:09 PM
#54
Originally Posted by TunedTL
What does what I plan to do with my car has anything to do with transmission fluid?
I want my transmission in good condition whether I want to sell it or keep it.
I have posted UOA links, exact quote from U.S. federal law, quote from TL's service manual, Amsoil flash point spec. I don't know what you call it, but still asking for "support" means these data don't matter, maybe because they don't reflect the opinion you firmly believe. But if you have an URL link, UOAs to share otherwise, please post.
I want my transmission in good condition whether I want to sell it or keep it.
I have posted UOA links, exact quote from U.S. federal law, quote from TL's service manual, Amsoil flash point spec. I don't know what you call it, but still asking for "support" means these data don't matter, maybe because they don't reflect the opinion you firmly believe. But if you have an URL link, UOAs to share otherwise, please post.
I simply follow deductive reasoning.
1. Acura/Honda had a tranny problem that was/is going to cost them warranty dollars.
2. Acura/Honda wants to resolve this problem as inexpensively as possible.
3. More frequent fluid changes and/or using synthetic fluid is cheaper than replacing the transmission.
4. Acura/Honda engineers analyzed the failures and decided the right answer was to replace the transmission, a more expensive solution. Eventually, they redesigned the failing portion of the tranny.
5. Fluid based solutions, either as preventative or curative measures, were not selected.
It's that simple.
08-06-2006, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
Regardless of the "visual" condition of Honda Z1, burnt, brown, etc, I've never seen it cause an actual transmission failure due to fluid failure. Honda points out in a service guide that foul smelling and/or dark colored ATF is actually OK, BTW.
There was one sample of ATF-Z1 on BITOG with around 60,000 miles on it, a 5-spd Auto in a RSX, and the fluid was perfectly fine.
First of all, the < 100 ppm reading is used for engine oil more than transmission fluid analysis. < 1000 ppm is actually considered the condemnation limit for most automatic transmissions , but of course, there needs to be a normal wear pattern and not a sudden spike of wear metals.
There was one sample of ATF-Z1 on BITOG with around 60,000 miles on it, a 5-spd Auto in a RSX, and the fluid was perfectly fine.
First of all, the < 100 ppm reading is used for engine oil more than transmission fluid analysis. < 1000 ppm is actually considered the condemnation limit for most automatic transmissions , but of course, there needs to be a normal wear pattern and not a sudden spike of wear metals.
ATF is a hydraulic fluid and a coolant, doesn't fluid failure affects tranny's ability to shift smoothly and cool down properly? Actually it is very often to find Blackstone Lab to ask those with high Al levels in UOA have tranny shift problems.
I agree, always make the best out of the situation, right?
However, lets get our facts straight first. Its highly unlikely that your ATF will ever reach 400F or 435F anyway, so don't worry about that.
Second, the flashpoint is merely THE flashpoint at which the fluid ignites, I believe. So, using that as your guide is somewhat misleading as the flashpoint reading will go down with usage due to volatility, etc...
Thus, please don't use the flashpoint as the sole guide to considering one ATF to be superior over another.
However, lets get our facts straight first. Its highly unlikely that your ATF will ever reach 400F or 435F anyway, so don't worry about that.
Second, the flashpoint is merely THE flashpoint at which the fluid ignites, I believe. So, using that as your guide is somewhat misleading as the flashpoint reading will go down with usage due to volatility, etc...
Thus, please don't use the flashpoint as the sole guide to considering one ATF to be superior over another.
Flashpoint is just one part. It should be combined with other indicators such as viscosity, wear particles count (pattern would help), oxidation % (if avaliable), and any physical symptom reported, etc. Also mentioned the flashpoint since Kris quoted Honda saying certain part >400 F.
Actually I am going to do an UOA for the partial Amsoil fill at ~30K oil miles, for preventative diagnostic purpose and to find out how good is the fluid.
True, but it was the opposite. The vehicle was a 02 RSX, if I recall correctly, with the 5-spd Automatic. Fluid had just over 60,000 miles on it, and the wear pattern was perfectly normal yet the fluid appeared brown.
Please continue discussing it in a civil matter so I won't have to close this thread, as we have great discussion occuring here.
If you're referring to the UOA I posted of a AV6 recently, then no. The fluid was not exactly "toast," it was fine. But the wear pattern, on the other hand, was a different story and was of concern.
If you're referring to the UOA I posted of a AV6 recently, then no. The fluid was not exactly "toast," it was fine. But the wear pattern, on the other hand, was a different story and was of concern.
08-06-2006, 10:24 PM
#56
Moderator
1) I doubt, even at wear metal content > 1000 ppm, that you will see any visible "flakes" of metal upon draining.
2) Yes, fluid failure can affect wear protection. A change in the frictional properties can adversely affect shift performance and shudder protection. Honda units seem to be very susceptible to a fluid's retention of "shift feel," as a mere drain/fill can cause more positive shifts. It seems as though the TCM in these vehicles does not control the shift times and/or other shift aspects, as from past experience, I can rarely discern any shift differences following a fluid change in GM vehicles.
3) Wear is really the most important part, second to fluid condition such as oxidation and TAN. TAN may be higher or lower for some fluids, as some fluids do not start out a 0 for TAN.
Unless the fluid was changed completely, and I mean by > 90%, it is near impossible to monitor the wear pattern in a transmission. Thus, in order to get an accurate representation of the wear pattern with a given fluid, you must take one sample, followed by a second one a short time afterwards (i.e. 10-15K miles), and see the differences and wear rates. This also holds true for the TAN readings, as I mentioned earlier. If the TAN is a bit on the high side at one sample, but remains stable, then its probably OK.
Remember though, that it can be quite difficult to obtain good oxidation readings on transmission fluids. In order to obtain an accurate reading, a virgin sample of the fluid of the fluid must first be run through the machine to compare to the used sample, to find the actual values. But if a complete fluid change isn't done (100%), the readings would be skewed, and at best, you'd have to rely on trending to an extent.
2) Yes, fluid failure can affect wear protection. A change in the frictional properties can adversely affect shift performance and shudder protection. Honda units seem to be very susceptible to a fluid's retention of "shift feel," as a mere drain/fill can cause more positive shifts. It seems as though the TCM in these vehicles does not control the shift times and/or other shift aspects, as from past experience, I can rarely discern any shift differences following a fluid change in GM vehicles.
3) Wear is really the most important part, second to fluid condition such as oxidation and TAN. TAN may be higher or lower for some fluids, as some fluids do not start out a 0 for TAN.
Unless the fluid was changed completely, and I mean by > 90%, it is near impossible to monitor the wear pattern in a transmission. Thus, in order to get an accurate representation of the wear pattern with a given fluid, you must take one sample, followed by a second one a short time afterwards (i.e. 10-15K miles), and see the differences and wear rates. This also holds true for the TAN readings, as I mentioned earlier. If the TAN is a bit on the high side at one sample, but remains stable, then its probably OK.
Remember though, that it can be quite difficult to obtain good oxidation readings on transmission fluids. In order to obtain an accurate reading, a virgin sample of the fluid of the fluid must first be run through the machine to compare to the used sample, to find the actual values. But if a complete fluid change isn't done (100%), the readings would be skewed, and at best, you'd have to rely on trending to an extent.
08-06-2006, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
1) I doubt, even at wear metal content > 1000 ppm, that you will see any visible "flakes" of metal upon draining.
2) Yes, fluid failure can affect wear protection. A change in the frictional properties can adversely affect shift performance and shudder protection. Honda units seem to be very susceptible to a fluid's retention of "shift feel," as a mere drain/fill can cause more positive shifts. It seems as though the TCM in these vehicles does not control the shift times and/or other shift aspects, as from past experience, I can rarely discern any shift differences following a fluid change in GM vehicles.
3) Wear is really the most important part, second to fluid condition such as oxidation and TAN. TAN may be higher or lower for some fluids, as some fluids do not start out a 0 for TAN.
Unless the fluid was changed completely, and I mean by > 90%, it is near impossible to monitor the wear pattern in a transmission. Thus, in order to get an accurate representation of the wear pattern with a given fluid, you must take one sample, followed by a second one a short time afterwards (i.e. 10-15K miles), and see the differences and wear rates. This also holds true for the TAN readings, as I mentioned earlier. If the TAN is a bit on the high side at one sample, but remains stable, then its probably OK.
Remember though, that it can be quite difficult to obtain good oxidation readings on transmission fluids. In order to obtain an accurate reading, a virgin sample of the fluid of the fluid must first be run through the machine to compare to the used sample, to find the actual values. But if a complete fluid change isn't done (100%), the readings would be skewed, and at best, you'd have to rely on trending to an extent.
2) Yes, fluid failure can affect wear protection. A change in the frictional properties can adversely affect shift performance and shudder protection. Honda units seem to be very susceptible to a fluid's retention of "shift feel," as a mere drain/fill can cause more positive shifts. It seems as though the TCM in these vehicles does not control the shift times and/or other shift aspects, as from past experience, I can rarely discern any shift differences following a fluid change in GM vehicles.
3) Wear is really the most important part, second to fluid condition such as oxidation and TAN. TAN may be higher or lower for some fluids, as some fluids do not start out a 0 for TAN.
Unless the fluid was changed completely, and I mean by > 90%, it is near impossible to monitor the wear pattern in a transmission. Thus, in order to get an accurate representation of the wear pattern with a given fluid, you must take one sample, followed by a second one a short time afterwards (i.e. 10-15K miles), and see the differences and wear rates. This also holds true for the TAN readings, as I mentioned earlier. If the TAN is a bit on the high side at one sample, but remains stable, then its probably OK.
Remember though, that it can be quite difficult to obtain good oxidation readings on transmission fluids. In order to obtain an accurate reading, a virgin sample of the fluid of the fluid must first be run through the machine to compare to the used sample, to find the actual values. But if a complete fluid change isn't done (100%), the readings would be skewed, and at best, you'd have to rely on trending to an extent.
No way your are really 16. I am going to do a drain/fill qith 3 quarts amsoil in a few days and I bet my car shifts better. Longevity on the other hand I doubt anythign will help, but I have 132k on my original tranny and it still works fine. I really just want firmer, quicker shifts and amsoil will alow both to happen I believe, but I will "know" in a few days.
08-07-2006, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
3) Wear is really the most important part, second to fluid condition such as oxidation and TAN. TAN may be higher or lower for some fluids, as some fluids do not start out a 0 for TAN.
Unless the fluid was changed completely, and I mean by > 90%, it is near impossible to monitor the wear pattern in a transmission. Thus, in order to get an accurate representation of the wear pattern with a given fluid, you must take one sample, followed by a second one a short time afterwards (i.e. 10-15K miles), and see the differences and wear rates. This also holds true for the TAN readings, as I mentioned earlier. If the TAN is a bit on the high side at one sample, but remains stable, then its probably OK.
Remember though, that it can be quite difficult to obtain good oxidation readings on transmission fluids. In order to obtain an accurate reading, a virgin sample of the fluid of the fluid must first be run through the machine to compare to the used sample, to find the actual values. But if a complete fluid change isn't done (100%), the readings would be skewed, and at best, you'd have to rely on trending to an extent.
Unless the fluid was changed completely, and I mean by > 90%, it is near impossible to monitor the wear pattern in a transmission. Thus, in order to get an accurate representation of the wear pattern with a given fluid, you must take one sample, followed by a second one a short time afterwards (i.e. 10-15K miles), and see the differences and wear rates. This also holds true for the TAN readings, as I mentioned earlier. If the TAN is a bit on the high side at one sample, but remains stable, then its probably OK.
Remember though, that it can be quite difficult to obtain good oxidation readings on transmission fluids. In order to obtain an accurate reading, a virgin sample of the fluid of the fluid must first be run through the machine to compare to the used sample, to find the actual values. But if a complete fluid change isn't done (100%), the readings would be skewed, and at best, you'd have to rely on trending to an extent.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/margins.html
Only problem is information (e.g. multiple tests) cost $. BITOG helps in big way since VOA is posted, UOAs with same model and driving style can also be used as reference points.
Amsoil, with its questionable markting tactics, at least release spec, which helps to set a baseline.
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/atf.aspx
I searched for Honda Z1 and Toyota T-V VOA/data spec but could not find any.
My planned UOA is mainly for diagnostic or information gathering, but I will post when I hit 30K. Perhaps someone else who are using Amsoil (and accumulate miles faster than I can) can post their results.
08-07-2006, 12:24 AM
#59
Moderator
Consistent sampling methods and using the same lab aid a lot in reproducibility. Also, as I've stated earlier, one reading may be meaningless, especially with such poorly reproducible test such as TAN, so trends are extremely important.
If you want firmer shifts, try DexronIII(H) or DexronVI only fluid. Or anything, of that matter, that is not Z1 rated.
And my age is correct...
If you want firmer shifts, try DexronIII(H) or DexronVI only fluid. Or anything, of that matter, that is not Z1 rated.
And my age is correct...
08-07-2006, 07:26 PM
#60
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I just did a drain and fill with 3 quarts amsoil today. I noticed my car shifted smoother than before. The shifts did seem a little crisper, but it doesn't shift any faster. I only drove a total of 10 miles today so this isn't a great examples. I plan on doing another 3 quart drain and fill in the next two weeks and hopefully that is all I will need as amsoil is pricey.
08-07-2006, 07:27 PM
#61
Moderator
Pricey? $7.75/qt isn't that bad in my book, considering that Honda Z1 averages about $5.75/qt from most dealerships, though I can buy in bulk, online, for around $3.50/qt...
08-07-2006, 09:20 PM
#62
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by TunedTL
Who designed TL's problem tranny with in the first place? Who recommended official ATF change interval into the service manual yet having ATF fail 1/2 to 1/3 of supposed useful lifetime? And I have not even started to talk about oil jet...
No one is suggesting synthetic ATF is a solution to a bad design with mechanical flaws, we are discussing how to prolong transmission life. It is obvious what Honda offers and suggests so far (design, TSB, fluid) are not affective. The difference is some are willing to explore other options, some don't.
No one is suggesting synthetic ATF is a solution to a bad design with mechanical flaws, we are discussing how to prolong transmission life. It is obvious what Honda offers and suggests so far (design, TSB, fluid) are not affective. The difference is some are willing to explore other options, some don't.
Plain and simple, our failures arent about bad fluids. Its about mechanical wear due to design restrictions
08-07-2006, 09:44 PM
#63
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quick question:
Since I have a 99 TL with the 4 speed tranny and the 3rd gear clutchpack isn't a huge concern compared to the 5 speeds, wouldn;t running synthetic ATF help me?
Since I have a 99 TL with the 4 speed tranny and the 3rd gear clutchpack isn't a huge concern compared to the 5 speeds, wouldn;t running synthetic ATF help me?
08-07-2006, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
Just one question for you then. If you are willing to understand that its a design problem and fluid isnt the solution, How is trying different fluids exploring other options.
Plain and simple, our failures arent about bad fluids. Its about mechanical wear due to design restrictions
Plain and simple, our failures arent about bad fluids. Its about mechanical wear due to design restrictions
Same analogy of Toyota owners using synthetic engine oil for 1mzfe oil sluge prone engines. Does synthetic engine oil solve Toyota's design problems? No. Does it make a bad situation better, Yes.
08-07-2006, 10:21 PM
#65
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by TunedTL
Better fluid, longer OCI and better protection.
Same analogy of Toyota owners using synthetic engine oil for 1mzfe oil sluge prone engines. Does synthetic engine oil solve Toyota's design problems? No. Does it make a bad situation better, Yes.
Same analogy of Toyota owners using synthetic engine oil for 1mzfe oil sluge prone engines. Does synthetic engine oil solve Toyota's design problems? No. Does it make a bad situation better, Yes.
08-07-2006, 10:26 PM
#66
Moderator
What sludge problem? 1MZ-FEs never had a sludge problem...it was merely caused by owner's following the wrong service schedules....
Again, synthetic ATF would help further prevent a fluid related problem, but would do little or none toward the design flaw.
Again, synthetic ATF would help further prevent a fluid related problem, but would do little or none toward the design flaw.
08-07-2006, 10:27 PM
#67
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by sbuswell
quick question:
Since I have a 99 TL with the 4 speed tranny and the 3rd gear clutchpack isn't a huge concern compared to the 5 speeds, wouldn;t running synthetic ATF help me?
Since I have a 99 TL with the 4 speed tranny and the 3rd gear clutchpack isn't a huge concern compared to the 5 speeds, wouldn;t running synthetic ATF help me?
08-07-2006, 10:36 PM
#68
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
What sludge problem? 1MZ-FEs never had a sludge problem...it was merely caused by owner's following the wrong service schedules....
Again, synthetic ATF would help further prevent a fluid related problem, but would do little or none toward the design flaw.
Again, synthetic ATF would help further prevent a fluid related problem, but would do little or none toward the design flaw.
08-08-2006, 01:22 AM
#69
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Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
What sludge problem? 1MZ-FEs never had a sludge problem...it was merely caused by owner's following the wrong service schedules....
Again, synthetic ATF would help further prevent a fluid related problem, but would do little or none toward the design flaw.
Again, synthetic ATF would help further prevent a fluid related problem, but would do little or none toward the design flaw.
For most dino, the TBN is in the low range a little over 3K.
Here is a UOA of someone that did a VOA of Toyota (Mobil bulk) 5w30 oil, that dino oil sheared to 20 weight oil in 200 miles, that is even before the owner uses its first tank of gas after oil change.
TBN decrease from 7.2 to 3 after a mere 1500 miles. Cu also shot up to 12 ppm, Fe shot up to 18 ppmhttp://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...c;f=3;t=000141
Another Camry V6 with dino fill, same 1mzfe engine with 3587 miles, TBN is 2.7
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=003650#000000
Another Toyota V6 with Pennzoil dino, TBN is 0.7 after 2400 miles, Pb is 131 ppm. Switched to Chevron Supreme dino, no much better
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...c;f=3;t=000229
For M1 syn oil, it is a little better, 5000 miles and still have TBN of 3. Indicating M1 5w30 could go 6K, which double the dino OCI. Cu is a mere 4 ppm, Fe is 10 ppm despite putting far more miles
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=001163#000000
Does one gets far less useful miles from Mobil 1 with 1MZ-FE than on the J32A2? Yes. Does it solve a design problem, No. But that is the best one can do with an oil chewing engine. Does synthetic offer better engine protection and resistant to oxidation, yes.
Toyota has extended the engine warranty to 8 year unlimited miles, pretty much admitting a design issue. Furthermore, Toyota has been publicizing the newer 3MZ-FE which has a fix to solve the narrow coolant passage (higher engine temperature) that plague the 1MZ-FE.
08-08-2006, 09:15 AM
#70
Senior Moderator
^ and that is a completly different design issue that has an effect with fluid than our tranny.
08-08-2006, 11:23 AM
#71
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
^ and that is a completly different design issue that has an effect with fluid than our tranny.
What we trying to explore here is a possibility of synthetic ATF to extend OCI to what the TL's manual calls for. Similiarly, TL's transmission design has caused an elevated temperature that Honda Z1 can not handle beyond 15K (depends on driving style, operating condition etc), causing owners to change it 1/3 to 1/2 of Acura's recommended OCI for ATF.
Like Michael noted, that $2-2.5 difference per quart is not a big deal, if one can get 22.5K out of the Amsoil (or Specialty Formulation), the owner breaks even in $ but still enjoys better protection against heat. Amsoil ATF's base oil also have better resistant to oxidization, shown by its higher flash point.
I am not here to convince what anyone else put into his car, afterall, it is a personal choice. Just stating reasons, which I believe pretty good ones, that some of us do want to give Amsoil a try.
08-08-2006, 11:59 AM
#72
Senior Moderator
we arent saying it isnt good to change it. But to say your trying it as a option to extend the trannies life??
I guess when i get home i will have to take pictures of the parts so people understand what is failing on our cars
I guess when i get home i will have to take pictures of the parts so people understand what is failing on our cars
08-08-2006, 04:54 PM
#73
Moderator
Without diving too deeply into this (busy today), but I do recall reading all of those UOAs you posted not too long ago. To summarize:
1) TBN is measured by a variety of methods, and Blackstone's testing method consistently reads about 2 pts lower than the industry standard, D-4739 method, which has a 1.0 cut-off.
2) If you look closely, the schedule is 4-months/5000 miles under severe service, or 6-months/7500 miles under normal service.
This is designed so that if a driver does 1-3 mi trips and puts in 600 miles a month, they'd obviously be operating under a condition where more frequent service is needed...they should be going far less than 5K between changes. Hence, the 4-month rule, so in that case, the person would only be going about 2400 miles in between service.
3) There will always be oddball engines, as I call it, which have some issues...such as the one with the bearing issues.
4) Toyota V6 engines wear extremely well....shearing doesn't seem to bother them. The important part is to see how the shearing is affecting wear, if wear is OK, don't worry about it.
5) I have two reports on a Toyota 3MZ-FE, which is just as bad as a 1MZ-FE. Havoline 5w30 thinned to a 20wt too, and the TBN was a hair under two on Blackstone's scale, but Iron wear about 1ppm/1000 miles, and this was with about 3300 miles on the oil with 5K total miles on the engine.
1) TBN is measured by a variety of methods, and Blackstone's testing method consistently reads about 2 pts lower than the industry standard, D-4739 method, which has a 1.0 cut-off.
2) If you look closely, the schedule is 4-months/5000 miles under severe service, or 6-months/7500 miles under normal service.
This is designed so that if a driver does 1-3 mi trips and puts in 600 miles a month, they'd obviously be operating under a condition where more frequent service is needed...they should be going far less than 5K between changes. Hence, the 4-month rule, so in that case, the person would only be going about 2400 miles in between service.
3) There will always be oddball engines, as I call it, which have some issues...such as the one with the bearing issues.
4) Toyota V6 engines wear extremely well....shearing doesn't seem to bother them. The important part is to see how the shearing is affecting wear, if wear is OK, don't worry about it.
5) I have two reports on a Toyota 3MZ-FE, which is just as bad as a 1MZ-FE. Havoline 5w30 thinned to a 20wt too, and the TBN was a hair under two on Blackstone's scale, but Iron wear about 1ppm/1000 miles, and this was with about 3300 miles on the oil with 5K total miles on the engine.
08-08-2006, 10:21 PM
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1) Even if absolute TBN is not used, relative TBN combined with wear # still indicate a concerning trend: dino UOAs with fewer miles have higher wear and lower acid neutralizing additives than syn UOAs with more miles. The superiority of synthetic fluid (in this case synthetic engine oil) helps, no matter where you draw the bottom line. Look like the beefer additive package and better base oil help big time. This is where this example applies to TL's transmission, better ATF could result in fewer wear for a given miles, which could lead to longer tranny life.
2) Yes, you are correct. 5K or 4 month
3) The chance of UOAs with dino oil (three different brands) are oddball bad engines and UOAs with syn oil are oddball good engines is small.
In fact, here is another M1 synthetic oil UOA with even better result @4750 miles.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=001684#000000
4) Yes, but shearing of Toyota/Mobil 5w30 oil as few as 200 miles is almost unheard of with other engines. Shearing to 20 weight oil means physical property has changed. Furthermore the engine did not stop, it continue to shear oil @1500 miles to a even lower viscosity. If one wants a 20 weight oil, he will buy 5w20. Also look at the Cu, Fe, Pb wears, higher than any of 1mzfe's M1 UOAs
5) I agree with you on 3MZ-FE, to me, it is a patch design until Toyota is ready to introduce 2GR family to next generation of Toyota/Lexus models.
2) Yes, you are correct. 5K or 4 month
3) The chance of UOAs with dino oil (three different brands) are oddball bad engines and UOAs with syn oil are oddball good engines is small.
In fact, here is another M1 synthetic oil UOA with even better result @4750 miles.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=001684#000000
4) Yes, but shearing of Toyota/Mobil 5w30 oil as few as 200 miles is almost unheard of with other engines. Shearing to 20 weight oil means physical property has changed. Furthermore the engine did not stop, it continue to shear oil @1500 miles to a even lower viscosity. If one wants a 20 weight oil, he will buy 5w20. Also look at the Cu, Fe, Pb wears, higher than any of 1mzfe's M1 UOAs
5) I agree with you on 3MZ-FE, to me, it is a patch design until Toyota is ready to introduce 2GR family to next generation of Toyota/Lexus models.
08-08-2006, 10:59 PM
#76
Moderator
1) Not sure. You're drawing conclusions from a very few, select samples. Also, the oils that were run in those engines were of last-generation oils, and my reports with the 3MZ-FE engines in the newest Highlanders were of SM/GF-4.
As for the beefier additive pack, it isn't really the case. The additive pack may be better designed, but it isn't necessairly "beefier" than a comparable one from a dino oil. Yes, the TBN starts out higher, but that's just one part.
In addition, all of the M1 samples you used were of extremely high-mileage engines, where wear values have already dropped significantly. Not exactly a fair comparison to lower mileage engines that are still wearing-in...
2) My point is that you've randomly selected samples of "oddball" analysis reports.
3) I could care less. It could've merely been an oil issue with the particular brand/model or bulk dino fill.
4) I'm posting two 3MZ-FE UOAs just for the sake of this discussion about additive packs, as the newer SM/GF-4 oils will contain lower additive levels yet still maintain good protection.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...c;f=3;t=003115
Here's another one I have that isn't posted:
2005 Highlander
Havoline 5w30, Purolator PureOne Oil Filter
3373 miles on oil, 5224 on engine
TBN= 1.9
Al 3
Fe 4
Cu 1
Sn 1
Mo 266
Cr/Pb/Ni/Mn/Ag/Ti/K/Ba=0
B 16
Si 34
Na 1
Ca 1287
Mg 24
P 488
Zn 581
Vis= 53.9 SUS (mid 8cst range)
Flash= 375F
Insolubles, 0.2%
Fuel= <0.5% (Though there's fuel dilution, evidently)
So, looking at these two UOAs, both of them could've gone to 5K without issues...
Sorry for going OT though...
As for the beefier additive pack, it isn't really the case. The additive pack may be better designed, but it isn't necessairly "beefier" than a comparable one from a dino oil. Yes, the TBN starts out higher, but that's just one part.
In addition, all of the M1 samples you used were of extremely high-mileage engines, where wear values have already dropped significantly. Not exactly a fair comparison to lower mileage engines that are still wearing-in...
2) My point is that you've randomly selected samples of "oddball" analysis reports.
3) I could care less. It could've merely been an oil issue with the particular brand/model or bulk dino fill.
4) I'm posting two 3MZ-FE UOAs just for the sake of this discussion about additive packs, as the newer SM/GF-4 oils will contain lower additive levels yet still maintain good protection.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...c;f=3;t=003115
Here's another one I have that isn't posted:
2005 Highlander
Havoline 5w30, Purolator PureOne Oil Filter
3373 miles on oil, 5224 on engine
TBN= 1.9
Al 3
Fe 4
Cu 1
Sn 1
Mo 266
Cr/Pb/Ni/Mn/Ag/Ti/K/Ba=0
B 16
Si 34
Na 1
Ca 1287
Mg 24
P 488
Zn 581
Vis= 53.9 SUS (mid 8cst range)
Flash= 375F
Insolubles, 0.2%
Fuel= <0.5% (Though there's fuel dilution, evidently)
So, looking at these two UOAs, both of them could've gone to 5K without issues...
Sorry for going OT though...
08-08-2006, 11:58 PM
#77
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Micheal, it is way OT. I will PM you since I doubt anyone else have the interest for futher discussion than us.
FWIW, Toyota issued letter to extend warranty on 1MZFE, not 3MZFE. These are two designs, one has a problem, the other doesn't.
FWIW, Toyota issued letter to extend warranty on 1MZFE, not 3MZFE. These are two designs, one has a problem, the other doesn't.
08-09-2006, 12:16 AM
#78
Moderator
3MZ-FE shows no mercy on oil either, but PM me. So back to ATF it is 
Any other happy Amsoil ATF users? I just read about a guy who did a 3 qt drain/refill on his 04 Civic (19.5K miles) with Amsoil and noticed smoother shifts...
Any other happy Amsoil ATF users? I just read about a guy who did a 3 qt drain/refill on his 04 Civic (19.5K miles) with Amsoil and noticed smoother shifts...
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