hyperxterm

I have a 2002 Acura TL-S with 160k miles. I had the Acura dealership replace the transmission (for the 4th time since I've owned the car), and when I drive it home I noticed a leak in my driveway (brownish liquid). I drive the car the next day and the temperature gauge goes above the red, so I have it towed back to the dealership. Now they are telling me my head gasket is blown and they are not responsible!!! This is crazy, the very next day after they replace my transmission and it breaks?

Here is a summary of the work order they did when they replaced the trans.. Does anyone think these could be related and they are responsible?

-- Customer states transmission is slipping
-- Tech installed transmission and test drove
-- Tech performed the mpi world class inspection
-- Tech notes front motor mount broken and trans mounts needed too
-- Tech replaced the motor mounts as he was reinstalling the transmission
-- Straight time discussed with Frank for bolt as tech was removing trans. Some of the threads from the engine came out with bolts. Frank authorized replacement of the threads through the helicoil process. Tech replaced the threads an trans was re-installed.

Can anyone give me some information about if they could have screwed something up while do the repairs? It's too much of a coincidence for me to believe they had nothing to do with it..

Thanks!

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

They should not have been anywhere near the head/head gasket.
Call Acura Customer Care and state your case. I doubt they'll do anything but it's worth a try.

TLer trash

The only things I can think of would be did they lose any coolant and not refill it when disconnecting the trans warmer? Were the hoses left loose on the trans warmer? Did any wiring or connectors that affect fan operation get compromised? If it overheated and took out the head gasket for reasons like the above, they are at fault.
Over and above that it might just be a coincidence.
Good luck trying to prove anything, or getting them to fess up.

piggylover1985

The transmission work should not have anything to do with blown head gasket. Unless when they did the heelicoil, if they drilled or run a tap in too far, or using too long of a bolt through the head or something.

TLer trash

At first, I thought the engine mounts bolted to the trans, but 2 out of three bolt to the block. The top one in this triangle of bolts looks REAL close to the water jacket. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody was drilling and struck water! And the work order said threads in the engine.

01tl4tl

sounds to me like someone let the mounts go broken for a considerable time (maybe a year?) to cause thread rippage from the block!!! that would require hard throttle use too

and this sudden temp issue- you are saying it NEVER went over half - actually 2 ticks below half on the guage... in the last 6 months of you driving?
and you ck the oil and coolant at least once a month?
things like rocks can take out a radiator,,,

where is the actual coolant leak?-
a pressure test will show if they drilled into a passageway
You can bet this car was a PITA for the tech! another trans (groan) and beat to crap with broken mounts,,no maitenance....

hyperxterm

Thanks for the help, I need all the info I can get..

@TLer, piggy -- That's what I thought happened.. they drilled too deep when doing the helicoils and coolant leaked out. The day I got the car back and parked it in my driveway, I noticed a puddle of fluid under the front of the car.. The Acura service rep called me the next day to see how the car was driving (I guess they do a followup phone call after a car is serviced) and I told her that I noticed a fluid leak but the car was driving OK. She said to keep an eye on it and if something happens bring it back in.. Well, on my drive back to the Acura dealership, about 30 miles into the trip the temp. gauge goes up to 75%.. I take notice, but continue driving since I was only 10 minutes away... Then the temp gauge went above the red, so I just pulled over and had it towed the rest of the way..

@01tl4tl, I've never had a problem with the temperature going past half-way mark.. I'm not sure where the coolant leak is from, they have the car now.. And I'm not really mechanically-inclined.. I do have the oil changed (fluids checked) every 3000 miles.. Also, after they installed the transmission, don't they do a check on all the fluids, etc..

Gfaze

When you saw that you should've stopped immediately and called the dealership to tow it the rest of the way. That's exactly what they will say to you if/when you tell them this story. I'm sorry to say but you are at fault for continuing to drive it even though you noticed the temperature was much higher than normal.

01tl4tl

why would they ck ALL the fluids? sure they do add a few ounces of ATF but thats it
Nothing else is related during trans removal

In this case with drilling involved - a prudent tech would have pressure tested cooling system after work was done IF they drilled near a port

You may have a different unrelated problem like bad hose or water pump failure,,
which they should have noticed when the car was in the air,,it is a techs duty to look for obvious additional work,,, and safety issues

the dealer rep only called you to make sure they would get all 10s on the survey card.
You are supposed to leave 100% happy or they should still be working on your car,,never let a car leave with problems!!! thats the rule

Corp reads those surveys then forwards to dealer - who reviews them at weekly shop meetings. If good surveys, bonus cks all around!!
bad surveys,,,dont count on that bonus and watch out for your job~
anything less than all 10s is a failing grade to corp!

01tl4tl

I like where the dealer phone girl is told there is a leak after being in the shop and says 'keep an eye on it and if something happens bring it in'

The correct answer was:
Let me get you the service Manager!!!!- who would have asked what color fluid and sent the tow truck for it

Lets hope for the worst and dealer drilled thru the block- and anything after that is shops fault--customer reported leak the next day when service girl called...was told drive it...

was the water pump ever replaced on this car at 105,, or therabouts

01tl4tl

when you get your new engine, its ok to go 5000 to 7500 miles between oil changes on any brand name oil

3000 miles is lifespan of cruddy oil from the 60s- and quicklube shop marketing!!!

If the dealer has been doing these oil services for you- you have a lot of `goodwill` built up- they owe you~

smartypants

Hi Hyper :

This really sucks !

You might want to notify the service manager in writing that you expect him to "preserve all evidence" which means they need to return all parts they replaced plus any related documentation. I suspect that given the mileage on the car, this will end up in small claims court and that evidence is crucial to your case. It will also put the service manager on notice that you are serious in pursuing a remedy, even if it needs to be legally adjudicated.

Don't pay the bill until they have turned over all the material to you even if it's an entire engine block.

smartypants

01tl4tl

that would have been helpful before..but now...

Be nice and see what they say

hyperxterm

Here's what really sucks, I was going to sell the car in a month because I am moving will not need it. So, first the transmission goes and I'm like great.. $2000 I have to put into it.. but atleast I can sell it for ~$4000.. Now this bullshit with the head gasket..

I'm wondering If I should try to negotiate with them to just keep the car (with the brand new transmission) and give me back my original $2000. They can fix the car and sell it themselves.. OR if I'd be better off paying for the engine rebuild (or whatever it needs now) and then reselling it myself and hoping to break even?

The service rep told me that I blew the head gasket on Friday morning and started telling me that she was getting estimates for getting it fixed, and I was like -- well I'm not responsible for paying any of that, because it obviously was caused by the faulty repair job.. She said, well the transmission work doesn't have anything to do with the head gaskets, blah blah blah. She could tell I was irate and told me she would have the Service Manager call me. I didn't hear back from them yet, so I'm assuming the Service Manager will call me on Monday..

So, if the end result is that they claim they are not responsible and I must pay it, you think I should pay it and tell them to preserve the evidence (also in writing)? Or should call the Acura Customer Care and state my case.. Or should I reverse the charges on my credit card for the transmission, claiming the repairs were not done properly, and therefore fraudulent?

I'm just tying to think of the best way to pursue this when the Service Manager calls me on Monday...

Thanks for all the help guys!!

@01tl4tl: I get the oil changes done at a local quick lube place, not the dealership.. I can't remember if I replaced the water pump.. I'm sure I can dig up the documentation if that would help..

hyperxterm

I told them I noticed it was running hot (I don't remember If I said 75%), but as soon as the temp shot up to above the red I pulled over to have it towed.. When she called me after she got the car back, she asked: Did the car overheat or did the temp just go high? I told her the temp when above the red so I pulled over and had it towed.. I think that will help my case - that I had it towed in, rather than driving it while it overheated. Just because a car temp is at 75% (it was more like 65% anyway) doesn't mean it's in imminent danger of over heating, does it? Sure it running hot, but it's still not in the red danger zone.. Like I said, I don't know much about cars.. So we'll see what happens I guess.

smartypants

Hi Hyper :

If your credit card company will put the amount in dispute, you at least will have some leverage. This is something I would definitely consider doing today. However, keep in mind, this is not a reversal and will not be until the dispute is resolved.

My earlier comments still stand and again keep in mind you are relying on THEIR investigation results to base any recourse on. If they fail to keep the "evidence" (which they will if they find they pooched it) you can still go the small claims court and claim they destroyed all the evidence without your consent to bias the case in their own favor. Judges really hate that !

Sorry to hear you're in the duck soup.

smartypants

01tl4tl

the transmission works.. correct? you have no legal right to withhold payment for that service and can be charged yourself if payment is stopped without legal cause

finding the actual cause of the leak and overheat is whats next- speak only with the Service MANAGER not the phone girl,, who is exactly that...a helper not a manager

anything over half- where the temp guage has run since you owned the car- is overheating
redline is baked! more than once redlined and it needs a replacement head as well as head gaskets

when you first told them- although you were speaking not to a manager in service but a girl at the desk--about coolant leak- it should have been referred to sevice desk and Tow truck dispatched now!- dont drive- let us look over the car now!!

dont have them fix it at your expense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
List the car for sale as newly rebuilt trans and needs head gasket
A ziner type person will consider that a 1 day project and few hundred dollars for new radiator or whatever is needed and score the car up

find out from the manager what caused the failure- dont go beyond that yet

the few ounces of coolant lost normally gets replaced when done, and doesnt cause an overheat like this

01tl4tl

acura client services 1-800 382 2238x5 gets a human phone answering person
Make a report- ask for them to open a file and a relal manager to call you back
they will give you some bs story but insist a manager call you back

normally you dont call acura untill all efforts with the manager have failed- but in this extreme case where lies and bs will no doubt abound as to why this prob wasnt spotted when the car was there,,,

01tl4tl

anything they left loose and coolant leaked out of- its on them for whatever happened

hyperxterm

If the repair job was not done correctly (hoses left loose, coolant not replaced, drilled though engine block, etc.) then regardless if the transmission works, they did not do the repair job properly and caused an engine malfunction... That would be my reasoning for disputing the charges..

That's exactly what I am going to tell them.. I notified you of a fluid leak the morning after I got the car. You told me to keep an eye on it and bring it in if something happens, if you told me to have the car towed in after I told you about the leak, this never would have happened

Should I have them fix it under any scenario (maybe they will agree to pay half?)? What's the most (if any) I should dish out to get this fixed? Or should I just the list the car for sale as you said..? About much would someone be willing to pay for a car that needs a new head gasket and 160k miles.. I'm just worried I wouldn't be able to sell it..


Ok, I'm going to find out exactly what caused the failure from the Service Manager and will tell them to hold off on doing anything else on the car (unless, of course, they say they will fix it for free cause they screwed up -- fingers crossed).. I'll tell them I'm calling Acura Client Services and filing a report..

Then, I'll call the Acura Client Services and open a report and get a regional manager to call me back..

smartypants

Hi Hyper :

I think any reasonable person would be able to draw the conclusion that something was not kosher with the reassembly work after the transmission repair. After such major work I find it hard to believe that the car would just all of a sudden overheat and pop a head gasket without some correlation. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

Keep to your guns but I be would be concerned they will use the 160K miles as an "out"...."what can you expect from an old car ?" Tell them there are lots of folks on this board with 250K plus TL's with their original head gaskets !

Good luck and keep fighting !

smartypants.

UWgrad

Another option would be to get a engine from the salvage yard and sell if after the install.

hyperxterm

Well, I talked to the Service Manager today and he said something like this:

-- There was coolant coming down from the overflow bottle/tube.
-- There was air pushing into overflow bottle
-- Exhaust pushing down on head gasket
-- Exhaust gasses pushes through coolant causing air pockets

He was talking pretty fast so it may not make sense.. Anyway, he said they were not at fault, and as "good-will" will pay for half the repair of the head gasket(s), which comes to $1000 out of pocket for me.. I asked if he would pay 75%, he said he couldn't..

I told him I couldn't believe that the transmission repair had nothing to do with it, and he said if I asked any mechanic, they would probably tell me that replacing a trans does not affect the head gaskets.. He said I could have it towed to another mechanic to have it checked out if I wanted to.

Anyway, I'm going to call Acura Client Services and see what happens with them..

01tl4tl

that all means there is a a blown head gasket..
BUT does not tell you WHY the gasket blew
There has to be a reason or new gasket will suffer the same fate

When I was a tech- that was part of diagnosis- looking and testing radiator- hoses- oil- what made this thing suddenly lose its cool- stuck thermostat???
cannot throw new gasket on and call it done!!!!!

Cant give customer good estimate till after head is removed and measure for warping

did he state it was only one head gasket bad? which one- front or rear

call some private honda shops- a grand is about retail+++ on one side
Some discount!!- and why goodwill if not their fault-- thats odd or a big lie
call 1-800-382-2238x 5 6am to 5pm pacific time--in los angeles, 2 hours later than Hi.

01tl4tl

and yes- a trans job shouldnt cause an overheat- unless as said earlier- they drilled into the block trying to fix motor mount with a helicoil-- and caught the water passage

or do i I have my threads confused?

hyperxterm

Acura Client Services says they created a complaint file but can't force the dealer to do anything.. so that was pretty much a waste of time.

Guess I'll just pay the $1000 to get the head gaskets fixed..

This blows!

hyperxterm

He did say head gaskets so I guess it's both.. I will call him back tomorrow and ask him to tell me (slowly) exactly what caused it - and I'll write it down word-for-word..

I also mentioned about drilling too deep when doing the helicoils and he said the drill bit is a certain size, and it wouldn't go that deep and if it touched the aluminum, the aluminum would have probably shattered.

I agree -- why would they do good-will if they did nothing wrong?

01tl4tl

a certain size drill bit--well you can put something like tape on the bit to kep it from going too far- assuming you know how thick the case material is
there are things you can put on a bit to stop it but its about knowing the depth

When you install a helicoil you drill out the broken bolt then drill the hole larger to insert a threaded coil-- a heli-coil
wikipedia it yourself then know the service desk is feeding you a line
print out the definition of how helicoil is installed and go in person to have them explain how a drill but would shatter aluminum? especially since the block on these motors is not aluminum
what were they drilling into- the aluminum cylinder heads???
on the phone its easy to lie~
Sounds to me like you are getting the major bs
No they wont admit hurting your motor,,,, so get your car out of there and to a private owner shop that does honda/acura

500 a side is no bargain either
They either screwed your car up or totally failed to look it over while it was there- which they are supposed to do when its in the shop

phee

iTrader: (5)

1k for aHG job is soooo much

smartypants

I know I run the risk of re-stating the obvious, but if it will help focus the dialog with the dealer, I feel its well worth it.

Let's step back, take a deep breath and look at the basic facts and assumptions and describe the probable scenario.

They admit that they had to heli coil (somewhere) due to a stripped thread. We're assuming the stripped thread was encountered during the front motor mount change and not the transmission. If this is true, then the drilling would have to occur in the steel engine block because that's where it attach's to the engine (and not on the head). This means that if the drill breached the water jacket, it would leak out of the bolt hole and would likely get worse with heating and cooling.

The engine would gradually loose coolant until it causes the temperature to rise, eventually loosing enough to cause an engine over-temp. It's this over-temp that would have caused the head gaskets to blow.

So in summary, if the drilling is related to the front engine mount change, it was into the engine block and not the head. If the leak is in the engine block, then the engine block would need to be replaced or repaired. Further, the engine block should be inspected by a third party to determine if the leak is found in the bolt hole described above then the scenario above is accurate.

If yes, then you have an excellent chance of recovering your costs. Now, there are automotive inspection companies that will go to dealers and provide a qualified objective look at the evidence.

Best of luck !

smartypants.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

you mean cast iron , but even then i thought we had an aluminum block



but even then, the VERY NEXT day it goes that hot though, maybe like a week later or something at a minimum, something obviously was not right when he got it back, and then depending on the size of the leak i don't think he would have even drove it anywhere, since he did say as soon as it heated too high, he had it towed


like maybe they had drained the coolant and never refilled it (so that it did not make a mess when the cooler got disconnected), and then OP says a brownish liquid, depends on the exact condition of the coolant and how it looks, but it could even possible be tranny fluid, that had over heated and came out the vent)

so to the OP, how big of a leak are we talking here that was in your driveway first of all???

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

set in your OLD ways :shakehead

smartypants

[QUOTE=friesm2000;12098193]you mean cast iron , but even then i thought we had an aluminum block

We call it cast iron out of old habit but in fact it's steel. They haven't used cast iron since they stopped putting in cylinder sleeves.

smartypants

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

[quote=smartypants;12098329]are blocks are aluminum, with cast iron/steel (whatever you like to say exactly for that lol) sleeves in it, give me a sec and i will find a pic for you

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

first an exterior shot, look at where the half shaft bearing mounts

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

again, sure looks like aluminuim to me,

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

and the interior shot, maybe not a full cast iron/steel sleeve, but still a cast iron/steel insert though, for the piston to ride up and down in

01tl4tl

now you understand my new signature!!!!
Im getting too old to remember everything, so some files are partial or fully deleted

more to the point- do you see where a tech can drill thru when fixing a mount?

TLer trash

I don't know if you do or don't think it's a possibility, but these photos don't show the area I was referring to. Just open your hood and look at where the top bolt on the front motor mount goes into the block. It looks really close to the block drain and water jacket. I was skeptical that the dealer was at fault at first, but by just looking at it, I'm now suspicious.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

lol

as far as drilling too far very easy, or even perfectly straight, since you are going to need a right angle drill to get in there, when installed into the car

and as far as putting tape for stopping the drill in time LMFAO, dealers are sometimes the biggest butchers out there

as far as coolant loss, it must have been a pretty drastic loss of coolant, for it to overheat that fast

and an easy way to tell if that bolt was the cause, pull the bolt out, and the hole should not go through at all (a mirror might help especially if still in the car, to see down it)(and btw it be better if the engine was in the car, then you can be very certain that that is indeed your motor)

and also here is another thought (nothing to do with that mount though), maybe they had did the tranny, then forgot to add coolant, and noticed it running hot on the test drive, so they added coolant after the fact, but the damage had already been done, and it just needed a couple of heat cycles to finish off those head gaskets (and the leak in the driveway, was just from the coolant bottle overflowing )