SpicyMikey

Forbes reported that Michelin has decided to cancel the PAX tire R&D due to low demand. All us guys who have them with the CMBS package are going to have to make some decisions in the near future

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited...fx4339121.html

Mike_TX

That could suck.

.
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dwboston

This was posted a few days ago in the tire section. They will still be making the tires to service the installed base, but not doing any further R&D on them. The tires will likely be available for far longer than any of us will own the cars, but the price probably will be going up.

SpicyMikey

Funny, I did a search first to see if there was a posting on this but didn't see anything. Regardless, I guess this should be in the tire section.

Yes, I read in that article that they will continue to make them, but the cost will no doubt be going up (not down). Plus I wonder how this effects resale value. Of course, we could always de-pax the car if the cost of the tires gets so high it makes sense to do so.

Ernie Golfs

There's a guy selling a set of stock RL wheels and tires on Black Market if you want to make a change. I think his last price he PMed me was $275. 32K on tires I think.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...l+wheels+tires

dwboston

If I still have the car in a couple of years when it's time to replace the tires I'll go A-Spec (again).

I look forward to an Acura dealer trying to lower the trade-in value of an RL because of the PAX tires that Acura coprporate forced on the CMBS model.

sotiri

by federal law, the tires have to be available for 10 years.
So, its not a problem yet, but Acura will have to offer a fix for the wheel size.

F.Rizzo

I've seen this movie before: Ford did this in the early 80's with the Michelin TRX tires on the Mustangs.
You can still get them today ($200+ ea.).

SpicyMikey

That's good to know. If the price stays reasonable and they are easy to get then I'll stay with them. I actually like these tires very much and am really disappointed the idea didn't fly. I don't think the idea was flawed, just the implementation of it.

Chuck091279

I'll probably switch out to A-Spec or regular tires. I plan to keep this car for a while and don't want to deal with tire pricing/availability issues.

lland

After reading about the "death" of PAX, I sent Michelin a note telling them that I was disappointed, could only believe that service on the PAX system would only get worse as no new dealers would be added to those with the capacity to serivce them, and that the already high price for the package could only go up.

Here's their response:

* * * * *

Thank you for visiting our Web site and sending us your e-mail. We are sorry for your disappointment in Michelin.

The Michelin PAX tire will still be made available in the replacement market. There are no plans to discontinue the availability of this tire, and current retailers will continue to provide services on this tire.

If you have need assistance finding a dealer or a tire, please contact 24 hour customer service number listed below.

If you have additional questions, please respond to this email or you may call us on the PAX toll-free number 877 PAX TIRE (1-877-729-8473) 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to allow one of our Consumer Relations Representatives to assist you.

Sincerely,

Michael

Michelin PAX Consumer Relations

* * * * *

LL

Chuck091279

This is why when I bought my RL, I worked out a deal w/the dealer that they would sell me 4 wheels + tires (good condition / non-pax) for $400 - and them put it on a "we owe" slip. I'm in no rush for delivery on them though. That, plus the 500 or so for the spare in the trunk, should put me at about 900 bones for my next replacement wheels/tires/spare, which isn't too shabby. However, if Acura pulls out the 1300 deal, I'll stick with PAX for another round. The other wheels are just plan B.

123456SPEED

Should this keep me from wanting a RL with CMBS?
Is it an easy shift to the stock rims/tires?
I read that different wheels would throw the radar beam off alignment and dealers would not put non-PAX tires/rims on the car.
I would think Acura would now offer alternative rims/tires on the CMBS cars.
???

lland

No, this should not keep you from wanting the CMBS. I think those of us with the CMBS package really like it and the adaptive cruise control is a realy "nice to have."

Switching to stock or aftermarket rims isn't difficult. Just buy the wheels, tires, TPMS sensors (unless you use your old ones), lug bolts (they are different for PAX wheels), and about $500 for a spare and related equipment. Depending on what you get, this can get pretty expensive though.

As long as the car is level, I can't imagine it would throw the CMBS radar off, especially if you went with 18" wheels since the PAX wheels are 18.1". There are some differences in suspension parts between PAX and regular but again, I can't imagine it would make all that much difference.

I still have a ways to go until I'll need tires and will certainly consider PAX replacements first (I do like the idea and they do ride and handle well) unless the cost is significantly more than the cost of new wheels, tires, spare, etc. If there is a trade in program when the time comes where I end up with all new wheels, even better!!

LL

SpicyMikey

I assume they will make the PAX optional now. I'm surprised they didn't do it immediately with the 08's like they did with the 08 Odysey. Honda's decision to walk away from Pax probably was the death blow for Michelin. Knowing that, Acura should have also stopped making it required on CMBS RL's.

I'm expecting Acura to offer some sort of migration path away from the PAX for the existing customers. Right now, they say they don't support putting regular wheels on those cars. I never heard it was because of the radar. I thought it was because of offsets and clearance with the brakes. They'll just need to come up with a workaround

SpicyMikey

I agree. The tires are great with the RL. I'm disappointed they abandoned the idea. That's twice now Michelin has introduced a new tire technology and then walked away from it a few years later. I think they've now lost all their credibility. Who would ever take a chance with them again? I'm sure Honda learned their lesson because they really took it on the chin with the Ody customers. it was a disaster for that crowd.

Chuck091279

I have a feeling that acura will throw in the spare and then charge current customers the price of new tires for wheels and nonpax tires. That's just my gut. Also there was someone on here a few months ago that was talking about how he bought a tech but swapped it out for non pax with another on the floor. I don't think its the offset or brakes. I think it'll be a basic swap out with the right parts and sensors of course. my 2 cents.

lland

Nah. MY take is that Michelin didn't lose any credibility with anyone other than PAX owners since outside of us, I doubt anyone really knew PAX existed (or they would have sold more). Of course, we keep good company with Rolls Royce and Bugatti owners...

Now, having said that, my MDX will need tires soon and will be getting a set of Goodyear Assurance TripleTreds.

LL

SpicyMikey

I meant the credibility with OEM partners like Honda, etc. I agree, the consumer impact is minimal.

123456SPEED

The radar beam change may have been related to Aspec suspension on the RL.
Hmm, if I get an RL I wanted CMBS etc, but with the cost of PAX tires, limited support all along, and now PAX being a dead technology, it makes me wonder.
I read that new tires cost someone $1500.
How is PAX different than other runflats? Are they all the same?

Chuck091279

its very different than conventional run flats. It has an inner support beam that requires special wheels. The tire is also interlocked to the wheel so that it does not come apart when driving while flat. If you decide to swap out pax tires you will need new wheels and lugnuts at a minimum. There has been speculation that you could move the toms sensors to the new tires.

If you're thinking about cmbs package...don't. The Acc and cmbs worth every penny. Its so great.

Chas2

Agreed. The CMBS and ACC are very worthwhile additions. The PAX tires are very good for what they are, and IMO perform better than the OEM 17" tires in the handling, noise, ride department, even though the tread patterns are identical.

I would not abandon the ACC/CMBS because of PAX, unless you want to mod the car's suspension. This could cause an issue with the aim of the radar. If you just want to switch out wheels and tires, this should be relatively easy to do, although I do not recall anyone that has done that on this board.

The issue with the Odyssey PAX tires appears to be more of an issue with longevity, which has not been an issue with the RL on this board, and ability to replace the tires, also, not an issue so far.

But many 2006 RLs may have to face the replacement issue this year or next, and we will have to wait and see. So far, I do not recall any real issues...

backfire

Wife got a nail in one of PAX tires . Called Acura dealer requesting they fix it since the car is only 1 year old and 10,000 miles. Dealer says cant get replacement till next wed. Jan 2,2008. Called Michilin man they say tire can be repaired. Discount tire says they can fix tire. Nail is in center of tread. Mean while I have gotten a email into the owner of Acura dealer telling him what a crock this is. Dealer calls Michliin and is told DO NOT fix those tires must be replaced. If you try to repair there is a inner jell that you must not disturb. Acura Dealer owner calls me and he is very upset because he thought they were to have a spare tire on the shelf and Michilin will not let them have one in stock available. Must get through Michilin only when needed. He tells me he paid $15,000 for the stores PAX system and it doesn't seem to work . We told dealer they are covered by a 2 year warranty and Michlin said NO then finally when shown it in writing they agreed. Anyway now they have given the wife a loaner car. While they wait for PAX tire and wheel. What a frickin mess. Good thing I don't live in a small town or would probably have to ship car back to Japan to have tire repaird or replaced. Does anyone know what the list of equipment is needed to swap the PAX out completely and costs? I am considering this when 2 year warranty is off these tires. I plan to get back with the owner and service manager next week to find out how this system is now going to be improved for the customer

lland

Backfire,

I'd bet it's your dealer not Michelin that was the source of your problem. I had my car in for service a while back and asked them to take a look at one of my tires as I thought it had a slow leak. My service manager said it did have a leak and replaced it on the spot. All I had to do was sign the warranty paperwork so they could be reimbursed by Michelin. No problem, no hassle. My understanding is that dealers are supposed to have at least one replacement in stock. Sounds like yours just didn't want to bother and I'd bet he didn't even call Michelin since he got a lot of things wrong:

The tires can be repaired (most of the time)
There is no gel in them (some self-repairing tires have a gel in them)
Michelin would have agreed to the warranty immediately

I wonder how "easy" the fix would be if there was a problem away from a servicing dealer but my one experience was positive.

LL

sotiri

First off, the tires are warrantied by Acura for 2 years under the road hazard warranty, they are supposed to take care of that asap. I had a similar incident earlier this year, I brought the car to acura, and had it back the next day with a REPLACEMENT tire.
DO NOT HAVE THE TIRE REPAIRED.
They are not easily repairable, and there are several issues, gel, and mounting.
Discount Tire is one of the dealers that have the proper equipment to mount that tire on a rim. Check first to make sure you have one by you that does have it, as not all do.
As I recently replaced my PAX tires with new PAX, I saw how they are mounted and gelled, so I can tell you that you will need to find someone who has the proper equipment.
However Acura is supposed to take care of these tires for the first 2 years of ownership, thats what it was on my 06, and in June of this year, thats what they did.

backfire

Yes Sortiri you are correct. About tire IT CANNOT BE REPAIRED. The dealer has the equipment to replace tires. Dealer showed me a letter from Michilin that will not let them have one in stock. They must get from Michilin as needed. The dealer is saying because of the Holiday is the reason they cannot get. I am calling foul and we be contacting Acura Direct to find out what the dealers policy is suppose to be.

dwboston

Did you call the PAX hotline? The number is 1-877-PAX-TIRE (1-877-729-8473) and it's staffed 24 hours. They are supposed to direct you to the closest service center, or if you aren't near one, get you a complete wheel/tire assembly within 12 hours.

Something doesn't sound right between Michelin and the dealer.

sotiri

Michilen wont let ANYONE have the tires in their stock.
Even authorized dealers.
Michilen is the weak link in all of this.
Personally I like the tire, and I like the way its setup, but I friggin hate the way the company acts.

SpicyMikey

I agree it doesn't sound like it did in the past. But now that Michelin has abandoned the PAX, they have nothing to worry about regarding keeping customers happy. It's a dead end for them. I can easily see the support network start breaking down. In fact, I'm kind of expecting it.

backfire

Yes I did and they directed me to several tire stores only to find 1 of the 3 that were able to get me a tire some 40 miles away. I just wanted to confirm that YES michelin is the weak link not allowing dealers to stock item, as was said . Its to bad cause like I like the tires and have always had good luck with the Damm French tire....until now. I am sure as time goes on it will get worse rather then better.

TampaRLX-SH

The PAX tires are apparently only offered in the US on the Honday Odyssey Touring, Acura RL CMBS/PAX and a Nissan Quest Model.

Now here's a juicey thread....

http://forums.automotive.com/70/1300...tem/page3.html

Pages 1-3 speak primarily to fast wear and mostly Ody owners. By Page 3, class action lawsuit...Page 4 horror stories of repair / replacement availability and costs, including RL owners.

Here's a NY Times Report:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/au...rssnyt&emc=rss

Apparently the PAX design does not have enough owners to support the maintenance costs for most dealers. And could Michelin be limiting replacements to 'force' owners to other wheel / tire options and make the headache go away?

It seems Honda / Acura got caught in the cross hairs and will have to pony up to owners under warranty? Maybe wise for PAX owners to know who can service te PAX and who can get ahold of these tires for replacements in advance.

backfire

Just wanted clarify the dealer has the machine which he said cost him $15,000 to change these tires. Michelin will not let them keep one in stock. Therfore we are at the mercy of Michelin to get a tire. It wouldnt surprise me if Michelin isnt closed for christmas vacation like so many other businesses

SpicyMikey

I think your dealer is blowing smoke up your @#$. Why in God's name would Michelin not allow them to stock the tires? I know for a fact the local Tire Kingdom has a set of 4 in stock right now and my dealer has a mounted set ready to go right now as well. I called around to find out.

dwboston

Did you try another dealer? Is there another one around you?

backfire

I contacted TIRE RACK to see about replacement of Pax Tires. They sent me a email that they have received a letter from America Honda stating not to change pax vehicles to conventional tire due to having suspension changes on pax cars. I also then contact discount tire to find the price of replacement set of these tires. TOTAL COST $1600. $50 per tire mounting. They just got a new tire changer for this system which he said cost them $16,000 . He also stated that he had in stock too many and needed to sell some. I told him to have a sale

SpicyMikey

So fast forwarding 5-10 years, if Acura won't support any other tire on these cars AND these tires almost certainly will become hard to find in 5 years, what are the owners of these cars to do? I think I see this headed for a showdown in the not to distant future.

Chas2

Can you say TRX? I am sure they will be available as antique/specialty tires in the years to come. Too bad, because right now, I really have no problems with them.

backfire

yes I did and the first question I asked is what country are you located in. I was told Wisconsin, But I dont think so. The woman was very hard to understand and I told her what I needed and she kept trying to give me a dealer which I didnt want I wanted to speak to a expert on PAX. After giving her all but my ss # I finally gave up and hung up. It was a joke. I have a real problem when you get a foreign country for help lines and they dont understand english

neuronbob

What a nightmare. I think Honda/Acura will eventually be forced into either finding a non-PAX solution for the CMBS/PAX cars or buying extra stock for the inevitable warranty replacements for quite some time.

From my standpoint owning a business....it's a shame that the dealers have to spend $15-16k on a machine that will basically gather dust--there are simply so few cars with the PAX system to justify a huge expense. Thus the install network will likely break down with time due to the announcement of PAX no longer being researched. Michelin must have a way to subsidize its dealers this cost?

SpicyMikey

I agree Bob. Regardless of what Michelin and Honda are saying. Support for the PAX tires (what little there was to begin with) will dwindle quickly over the next 3 years. They will become a specialty tire very fast. Unfortunately, these tires have the added problem of requiring special wheels and modified suspension. This will hurt the value of your car. It's bad news.