ATLDiver

I'm looking at buying a '07 Acura RL-with the PAX tech package and honestly I had never heard of the PAX tire before. After confirming with Michelin they will still produce but not continue research, I'm honestly thinking of passing on the vehicle I'm looking at. The dealer is looking to off-load this CPO car at a great price but I'm apprehensive due to the replacement tire cost and hassle.

Just how many miles can I expect to get out of these PAX tires? The car has 19K miles on it and the tires look almost new but if I'm looking at having to put new tread on in another 15K miles I'll pass on the deal. I just don't like the idea that I can't go down to my local tire discounter and get a new set put on under a grand.

My local dealer has quoted me a price of $282 p/tire for replacement PAX's. Is that the going rate at dealers? Is there any national chains that deal in this system?

Chas2

$282 per tire is not the whole story.

Here is a quote I received from a local Maryland PAX retailer, in fact, the closest one to my house in Virginia

Executive Wholesale Tire on 7/28/08
750 E Gude Dr
Rockville, MD 20850
(301) 294-8820

4 x PAX 245-680R460A @ $385
4 x Gel Packs @ 24.95
Subtotal $1645
Tax $98.76
Labor 4x $80 = 320
Total incl disposal fee $2075

Sounds like the cost of the tire has gone down to $282, but there are other things involved as you can see.

There is a Class Action Lawsuit Settlement that may provide some very limited benefits.
http://www.sfmslaw.com/pages/cases.php?id=343

I have a 2006 PAX car. At 27K miles the PAX look like they will hold up until about 40K miles, this after a track day with the BMW club. They are between 6 and 7/10s. They ride very nicely, I have inflated over OM spec of 32/30 Front Rear to 37/35 Front Rear cold, and I have no complaints for what they are, moderate performance touring tires.

I have purchased a set of new 19" wheels and tires that I will use in the warmer months, and the handling is much better with those wheels and tires. Looks are another side benefit. There is the slightest bit of ride sacrifice with the lower profile tires on the 19s, but not much...wife does not complain. I plan to keep the car for awhile, and I know I will be lucky to get 20-25K miles out of high performance rubber, so I have justified in my own mind the purchase of the new wheels and tires.

That is one of the trade offs you have to decide also if you want the car. For $2000, less actually, you can get a decent set of 18" wheels and rubber, say Enkei SC-05, Goodyear F1 Ultra High Performance All Seasons, new TPMS, mounted and balanced, shipped from the Tire Rack. Get your spare tire at the junk yard.

You will also need for under $100 new (may also be at a junkyard cheaper)
* Trunk Spacer Assembly [styrofoam insert that goes inside the stored spare tire to hold tools] (Part number: 84542-SJA-A00)
* Adapter - Spare Tire [part to hold the spare tire down] (74651-S2x-003)
* Bolt - Spare Tire [long bolt that ties the adapter to the trunk floor] (74652-SDA-003

So maybe another $200 for the spare and parts, assuming you can get the spare at a junkyard.

I also do have to say that the CMBS and ACC is one of those features that was worth the price of entry, and you don't know what you are missing until you have actually used it. The CMBS for safety has saved my ass, and the ACC for its extreme convenience on the long haul, which this car excels at. The ACC works just as well at 35-45 as at 75.

This is a wonderful, highly under rated car, with high build quality and comfort and safety features.

That said, you could just get a regular 2007 technology package car with 17" wheels instead of the 18" PAX. If it were me, I would still have to get new wheels and tires, because in the long run, 18 inch tires are easier to find and cheaper than the odd sized 17 inch tires used on the non PAX cars.

Jackzilla

Chas2 has summed it up perfectly. I would add only the following comments.

I also have 2006 PAX/CMBS Acura, purchased used -- and like you had never heard of the PAX tires, which the dealer I bought from apparently was completely unaware, because of the very good price for the car.

My solution after, learning about the ins-and-outs of the PAX tires, was the buy a set of Acura RL OEM (17") take-off wheel assemblies from an Acura dealer on Ebay. Wheels were complete with TPMS sensors, center caps, mounted and balanced and virtually brand new -- less than 10 miles on the tire set -- all for a price of just over $800. less shipping. Spare wheel assy and accesories ran another $100 from an auto salvage outfit -- also in absolutely mint condition.

Others on the forum seem to prefer going to 18" or 19" wheel sizes, but stock size is perfect for my purposes and as time passes more tire choices ARE becoming available in the stock/oem size.

I still have my PAX wheel assemblies and will rotate them with the standard until they're worn out -- there really is no market for them that I have been able to find. Used this way I expect the two sets to last, probably, 80K to 100K miles -- neither set at this point (21Kmiles) shows any significant wear.

My big problem, and main reason for switching, is the problem of service and/or repair on the road with the PAX tires. There just are so few places that can properly service them that a problem can leave you stranded hundreds of miles from PAX dealer. For that reason my choice is to use the standard wheels for any over-the-road trips -- they can be repaired or replaced just about anywhere.

Like Chas says the pluses of CMBS and adaptive cruise control are WELL worth the small problem correcting the PAX wheel shortcomings. Also, knowing these potential problems could be a valuable bargaining point in negotiating a relly good price for the RL you're lookng at -- it certainly worked out in my favor if only because the dealer DID NOT know about the extra value of the CMBS/PAX package.

You also may have the opportunity to get a set of 2009 RL take-off wheels, which are now 18" and which solve the problem of having a wider choice of replacment tires.

Good luck on whatever your chice. As Chas says and I second wholeheartedly, the RL is a technical masterpiece of automotive engineering, excellently built, yet highly under rated and appreciated -- except by those of us who own and know what a value it is.

ATLDiver

Thanks Jack and Chas for the info, I did decide to buy the RL I was looking at. I had a TL that I was returning off of a lease that was over miles by 2000 but was still able to haggle the dealer down to 31K for the RL after rolling in the TL's miles. The dealer agreed to sell me a set of PAX tires at dead cost when I need them plus they threw in a new DVD for the NAVI and all-weather mats.

Like you, I'll most likely look at picking up standard wheels and a spare kit off Flea-bay.

Chas2

Congrats on your new car!

ATLDiver

I'm thinking of going with 18" because I think they would look better on my car as opposed to the 17". For some reason the 17" PAX wheels look a bit too small for the car IMO. Since I have at least 20K miles to prepare and buy the costs won't be so bad but I'd like to get some suggestions. I'm confused as to the different off-sets of the various wheels are out there and possible suspension clearance.

I know that I won't opt for a new set of those PAX tires, I don't like the idea of the *limited* use and service of them. The dealer where I bought my car said they would help me out when I needed new tires, including swapping them out for a regular setup. By that time, maybe I can find a set of '09 RL wheels someone is looking to get rid of for customs or larger wheels.

Chas2

Again, congrats on the new purchase.

Interestingly, you have 18 inch wheels on your car. Measure the PAX wheel. Even though it looks exactly like the 17" OEM conventional wheels, you will find they are 18".

The 460A in the tire size indicates that the wheel diameter is 460 mm, or 18.1 inches. Interestingly, if you measure the inside (facing the suspension) diameter, you will find it closer to 19". That is the A designation (for asymmetric). This asymmetric character allows the tire to stay locked on the wheel at high speeds, and for that 125 miles at 55 mph, rather than coming off, as with conventional wheels.

The PAX tires are equivalent to 245/45-18 tires, but I think they do look more like a 50 series tire.

That said, you have the same series of decisions to make regarding new wheels regardless of whether you have OEM conventional wheels and tires or the PAX system currently installed.

In my long winded way, I still have not answered your question, and probably never can.

Log into Google, type in

site://rl.acurazine.com wheels

and you will get dozens of threads, with pictures discussing the decision process.

Vary the search term "wheels" and substitute with "PAX" or "PAX replace", etc.

Following is something I wrote up in Wikipedia. Don't know how long it will be up there because the changes I add are usually deleted by someone else because I have not thoroughly foot noted it.

OEM Wheels and Tires

Second Generation Acura RL OEM wheels and tires information is listed below showing the differences between models and years, and detailing information about the Michelin PAX Run-Flat tire system. The second generation of the Acura RL was the first to introduce a new bolt pattern to their passenger cars, 5 bolts with a 120 mm bolt circle (or PCD, Pitch Circle Diameter). Previous Acura sedans, including the first generation RL used 5 X 114.3 mm. In addition, a new lug bolt size, 14 mm x 1.5 was introduced over the previously common 12 mm x 1.5 size. The hub size remains at 64.1 mm.
When fitting non RL specific after market wheels, or even Acura manufactured wheels that apparently have the correct sizing, it is critical to verify fit with the wheel manufacturer. One important thing to note with the second generation Acura RL is the massive size of the 4 piston front brake caliper. All other after market wheel specifications may be correct, but the front brake caliper will still rub. For example, the second generation OEM Acura MDX wheels would appear to fit the second generation Acura RL, but despite the specifications, the wheel spokes do not clear the RL's large front brake caliper.
Another consideration is that Honda/Acura wheels, like many manufacturers, depend on hub-centric wheel fit, that is the wheel mounts and is supported on the 64.1 mm hub. The lug nuts are there to keep the wheel in place. Many after market wheels are bored out a much larger size, for example 75 mm, so that they may fit on a variety of European, American and Japanese cars. In such a case, a centering ring is required, which will take, in this example, the 75 mm wheel bore, down to the required 64.1 mm hub size. Without a centering ring, after market wheels may have vibrations, in addition to the great mechanical strain being put on the lug bolts, which are designed to hold the wheel on to the supporting hub, and not support the wheel (and the car) by themselves.
Finally, any second generation Acura RL wheel must be fitted with compatible tire pressure monitoring sensors, or the car's low or no pressure TPMS warning system will be alarming constantly. TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) Sensor Assy, Acura Part No. 06421-S3V-A04 fits all Acura wheels shown below, as well as many after market wheels.

Conventional Wheels and Tires KB-1 (2005-2008) OEM Style Wheels
Made by Enkei (P/N 42700-SJA-A82) or Asahi (P/N 42700-SJA-A81)
Diameter and Width: 17" x 8"
Bolt Pattern: 5 x 120 mm
Offset: +55 mm
Hub Size: 64.1 mm
Lug Size: 14 mm x 1.5
Lug Style: Honda flat "mag seat" with washer
Lug Nut Wrench: 22 mm
OEM Lug Lock: Acura RL Non-PAX Wheel Lock P/N 08W42-SJA-200 (note this is a different part number than PAX wheel lug locks, and substituting the wrong lug seat is dangerous. PAX wheel lug locks are often sold at a discount, but do not fit conventional wheels properly.)
Est. Wheel Weight: 25 lbs
Est. Total Wheel and Tire Weight: TBD
Tires: Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 245/50-17 98V Grand Touring class All Season Radials

Conventional Wheels and Tires KB-1 (2005-2008) Optional Accessory "A-Spec" Wheels
Diameter and Width: 18" x 8"
Bolt Pattern: 5 x 120 mm
Offset: +55 mm
Hub Size: 64.1 mm
Lug Size: 14 mm x 1.5
Lug Style: Honda flat "mag seat" with washer
Lug Nut Wrench: 22 mm
OEM Lug Lock: Acura RL Non-PAX Wheel Lock P/N 08W42-SJA-200 (note this is a different part number than PAX wheel lug locks, and substituting the wrong lug seat is dangerous. PAX wheel lug locks are often sold at a discount, but do not fit conventional wheels properly.)
Est. Weight: 26 lbs
Est. Total Wheel and Tire Weight: TBD
Tires: Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 245/45-18 96Y Ultra High Performance class All Season Radials
or Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 245/45-18 96Y Ultra High Performance class Summer Radials


I have always tried to adhere to the philosophy that the new wheel has two main purposes, first as a means to put the rubber on the ground for better performance, and second, for enhancing the appearance of the car. I think all too often, the wheel is looked at more for appearance, and the rubber is secondary. Consider what tires you will be putting on the car, with respect to what you want to do with the car, and where you live. Are you going for an all season tire, or more aggressive summer tire?

In your search, try to save weight. You will feel that immediately in the handling of the car. Saving weight means you have to balance cost, because saving weight generally means more expense. The PAX equipped RL is less sensitive to weight for various reasons, but that is too much to go into here, but saving weight is always a good thing...try to keep to below 26-27 lbs per wheel (not including tire).

Finally, the most important thing, is fitment. The RL can be hard to fit because of its front brake caliper. So work with a reputable local or internet retailer that you can discuss fitment with . I have worked with the Tire Rack for years.

I know I have not answered your question, but hopefully it is a start. I am also slowly compiling a database (for my own entertainment) of what people have done on this site. Currently it is kind of an incomplete, not well thought out Excel list, but if you want it, PM me.

ATLDiver

I need to look at my options here, I haven't measured the PAX wheels but they are odd 'ducks' so to speak. I'll look through TireRack's choices and go from there. Thanks....

Chas2

The PAX wheels are throw aways if you decide not to replace them. They are the metric equivalent of 18 inch wheels.

If you look at the Tire Rack, key in a non CMBS model, or you will get nothing to choose from. The easy way would be to look at the 2009 model. Personally, I would consider the Enkei Tuning SC-05 and check on the availability and fitment of the Enkei SC-03. I believe both use the Enkei proprietary MAT technology which offers the benefits of forging without the cost. These like most wheels will come with centering rings and lugs.

BBS RE wheels are forged wheels for more than twice the price. These are built specifically for the RL, with correct hub size (no centering ring), uses the stock lug nuts (which you would have to buy since the PAX lugs would not fit), have the proper offset for the width.

We also know that ASA wheels, 5zigen SC3000 wheels, among others fit. Use the search feature to find pictures of these and the RonJon wheels.

Also look at RonJons wheels. He makes the wheels specifically for Acura/Honda products, and is also a sponsor here. Look at the top of this forum, and you will see the Legend series of wheels on a white 09 RL.

Regardless of what you buy, be sure to get the TMPS sensor assembly.
If you are having someone other than the Tire Rack install TPMS, it would be good to bring along the AcuraService News (see the sticky at the top of the 2G section) that explains the TPMS torque requirements for installation.

Chas2

I neglected to add, that the Acura A-Spec wheels are also a very nice alternative, and you will have no fitment problems. Just as the BBS RE described above, no centering ring, no worries on offset, and standard lugs fit.

You might also want to look at Gorilla Locks as an alternative.

If you want info on the spare tire, and other parts, that is on this forum also. You should be able to get everything from a junkyard for much less than new.