tvande

Just saw that Acura has announced a diesel for their line at the Detroit auto show.

I have *never* been able to figure out how MB sells so many of the things, but I guess they do.

Let me go on record now as saying *I* am not interested in the least.

Makes me wonder where this idea came from....

jhr3uva90

Diesel is VERY popular in Europe, which is why Mercedes and the other Germans are able to sell so many "of the things." Diesel engines' popularity in Europe gave European car companies much incentive to invest a lot into diesel R&D. As a result, today's diesel engines are much cleaner and fuel efficient than the ones we Americans remembers. Also, diesel engines give rise to flex fuel cars that can handle ethanol, biodiesel and other biofuels as well as traditional diesel.

I think it would be wise for Honda to delve into diesel engines if for no other reason than to better compete with the Europeans in their home turf. Also, diesel engines can give Honda another option in their search for alternatives or supplements to gasoline engines.

jftjr

Diesel engines were fine in the USA, until GM decided to start putting them in Olds, Caddies, and Buicks.


Even that would have been fine, had they used a decent diesel engine and not a half-baked conversion from a 350 Chevy gasoline motor....

I'd love a good, modern diesel. Wouldn't you love an RL with lots of torque and 40 MPG?

dwboston

You still can't register a new diesel car in MA, so, no I don't want one.

ram_g

Modern diesels are terrific - lots of power and torque combined with good fuel mileage. I would choose one in a heartbeat if they were an option on a vehicle I was interested in. I think Honda/Acura are on to a good thing here.

Vanilla_Gorilla

Ditto. Diesel engines ROCK!!!

neuronbob

Before you jump on the diesel bandwagon, read the Temple of VTEC's description of driving dynamics in the two diesel products Honda offers.

TOV Driving Impressions: Twin Motegi Ring 1....scroll down to the mention of diesel.

Sounds like the new i-DTEC engine will do well compared to Honda's older i-CTD technology, which is currently used in Europe. I'd take an RL with gobs of torque and 40 mpg as long as the driving experience was similar to a regular gas engine.

Bartmanhoff

I would love a diesel RL. Lots of low rpm torque coupled with SH-AWD, that would be awesome apexing turns not to mention more torque for the stoplight racers. Hopefully it would be coupled with more peak HP, and better mileage to back up the higher fuel cost.

What's not to like other than the smell at the pump

neuronbob

But isn't it difficult to get high HP from a diesel, and that these engines don't rev high? I am not an automotive engineer, so I only know what I've read and don't have real knowledge on the subject.

Bartmanhoff

I'm not an automotive engineer either, but note the success the Audi R10 has had in international and USA-based racing. It crushes the competition, even when it is forced to carry extra weight and less fuel than the other American Lemans series race cars.

The Audi continues to dominate the series even though the organizers continue to change the rules in an effort to balance the competition.

In fact, there is an article in Autoweek about Audi putting a V12 diesel in their R8 supercar...Check it out at:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...416810215/1056

larrynimmo

contrary to popular belief, modern diesels are very troublesome. i would never own a modern diesel outside of an extensive warranty. I own a fleet of FORD diesel work trucks. They get great fuel mileage and have tons of tourque, but there are very few mechanics that can fix problems. Typical engine problems cost 2k - 5k and that is without pulling the heads. Constantly replacing fuel injectors, EGR problems due to turbocharging.

For a truck I could justify the cost, but not for a car engine, I would need to be proven the savings and performance...in other words I won't be the first one to own one.

lumpulus

+1, and even if you could I wouldn't buy one.

ram_g

This is not representative of all diesels. It is well known that Ford has had a bunch of problems with the recent Navistar-built 6.0l Powerstroke diesels, to where Ford and Navistar have sued each other. Also the Powerstrokes are not exactly what I'd call "modern" in terms in diesel engine architecture.

Europe is full of truly modern (small displacement, high pressure common rail, low emissions) diesels and they typically last a lot longer than petrol engines.

LuvMyTSX

Honda's new engine meets the requirements for all 50 states, so yes, you will be able to register it in MA when this engine is available.

I'm betting they put it in the TSX first, which makes the most sense. Europe already gets a diesel Accord (our TSX), and Honda said in the article below that an Acura 4 cyl will be the first to get the new diesel.

http://www.reuters.com/article/lates.../idUSN13358600

BTW, as long as the price isn't outrageous, and the car is quiet and performs decently, I will likely pick up a diesel TSX as my next car. I don't want to be the first to own it, but I am most definitely interested in it.

kirbyflorida

Americans really like torque, but buy horsepower.
Diesels have torque, so do electric motors, which they will also like in the future.

The Audi R-10 diesel is fantastic, saw at 12 hours of Sebring.

jftjr

I'm no automotive engineer, either, but I believe that diesels tend not to have high horsepower numbers -- for example, the diesel engine in your local Peterbuilt probably rates about 400 HP... but the TORQUE is ungodly on it, so it moves tons.

If the engines are geared properly, this isn't a problem -- diesels don't rev real high, but they turn hard... so nice tall gear ratios are possible.

I have a friend with a diesel VW Bug, and I have to say, it's fine as a daily driver, and in fact is pretty chuckable -- of course, it has a manual transmission, so it feels peppy, but you don't have to shift it much.. it just goes.

Plus, she gets 40+ mpg in the thing... and you can fill it with farm diesel (for, um, off road use only, of course) or run it on a bottle of vodka or some kerosene if you get stuck.... heh.

Mike_TX

For most Americans, I think the jury is still out on diesels for passenger cars. If the "new" diesels don't stink or blow black soot out the exhaust, then we don't have any of them here in the states yet, because even the late model M-B's still stink and blow soot.

And Europe ain't no can of Glade air freshener, either - I can breathe the air better in downtown Manhattan than I can in London or Munich or Rome, where you'll be wheezing within an hour if you have sinuses like mine.

I think it's important to remember, too, that diesel is still oil. Petroleum. Some folks seem to think it comes from old used furniture or wet newspapers or something. And while the 15% or so increase in mileage is nice, it isn't going to save the earth or substantially reduce our dependence on foreign oil. (And let's not even bring up biofuel - there isn't enough cultivatable land mass in the U.S. to grow enough corn to satisfy more than 15% of our fuel needs.)

Last but not least, look at the price of diesel at your friendly local gas station. It's about 10% higher per gallon than regular gasoline, and if we start buying more diesel cars and demand goes up, expect it to get even pricier.

Diesel may be the engine of the future, but it has a long hill to climb for most of us before we lay awake at night dreaming of one.

My opinions, of course.

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LukeaTron

Something to keep in mind, diesel fuel contains about 15% more energy per unit volume than gasoline. There's a ton of potential there from purely a performance standpoint. Diesel engines can run insanely high compression ratios too.

About a year ago the US government mandated that all diesel sold for on-road use be Ultra Low Sulfur. This means that manufacturers can build diesel engines with catalytic converters (since high sulfur in the fuel rapidly fouls the cat). That means no more thick, black and stinky diesel exhaust. It also means you can't run "farm" gas without destroying your exhaust system with sulfuric acid in a car meant for ULSD. Plus, diesel can be made from coal or just about any kind of waste organic matter available, of which we have more than we know what to do with in the US.

I think diesel engines are going to be very popular in the consumer market during the transition to near zero emission vehicles over the next couple decades. I actually looked at the available offerings before I bought my TSX but I think the R&D has not been pushed very far yet in this segment. It's understandable that there be a lot of trepidation at this point, particularly from those old enough to have experience with American manufacturers past follies with diesel. Rest assured though, as gas prices start climbing rapidly in the very near future, the manufacturers are going to start paying a significantly more attention to the idea and then we as consumers will start seeing some pretty sweet alternatives.

It's very likely that in 4 or 5 years when I'm looking for a new car that it will be diesel or some sort of diesel electric hybrid. Upwards of 50 mpg with 170 hp and ft lbs would be a pretty sweet spot for most consumers I think (for a smaller car than the RL anyway, 220/220 for the RL would probably work out well).

LukeaTron

New diesel engines that exist that don't do this, once they are up to temperature anyway. In colder climates, they'll probably continue to spew noxious black crap for a few minutes when they're first cold started. No where near what the currently available cars do now though.

Diesel, particularly the low sulfur flavor, is more complicated to refine and as it's demand is relatively low, the refining capacity in the US is quite low but that will likely change. Probably one of the biggest factors diesel could play in reducing our foreign dependency is the fact it can be made from coal, of which we have massive reserves of.

I'm not saying it's the end all be all of vehicle power plants, but it's a good stepping stone on our way elsewhere as it's moderately mature technology already. There are lots of relatively easy improvements that can be made to current systems that could significantly improve viability. As far as the manufacturers ROI, they can expect decent results in a comparatively short period in respect to other means of raising fuel efficiency while still producing something the American consumer will desire to purchase.

Mark my words, we will see diesel make significant in-roads in the passenger car market in the next 5 to 10 years.

Mike_TX

Note, too, Luke, that diesel contains 15% more CARBON than gasoline, gallon for gallon (2778 grams/gal v. 2421 grams/gal, per the EPA). That carbon is what produces carbon dioxide upon combustion, and carbon dioxide is what environmentalists refer to as a "greenhouse gas".

That being the case, diesel has to get 15% better "gas mileage" than gasoline just to break even on CO2 emissions.

And diesel from coal isn't a feasible process just yet. It's still in the development stages and is currently too expensive for mass production. Sure the Germans did it in the 1920's, but it was a messy process that produced a lot of ugly by-products we wouldn't allow today.

I'm not trying to be negative here - just realistic.

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fstshrk

+1 on an Diesel RL. Has anyone here driven the 535td from BMW. It rocks.

Chas2

I would have to drive it, but a turbocharged i DTEC V-6 with gobs of torque and SH-AWD might be very interesting to drive. You may get less than 300 hp, but would probably get over 300 lb ft in torque. Low reving, but with the right transmission, it may be very acceptable.

Diesels are very popular throughout the world as has been stated. Of course, it may be a moot point as time goes on...the figures I just saw on projected oil use in the next 30 years or so from China and India are staggering.

CL6

Diesels are popular in Europe mainly because gasoline is taxed at a much higher rate. European governments would prefer to tax the gasoline driver not the corporate driver.

Mike_TX

CL6 is correct. Everyone talks about the $8 a gallon gasoline in Europe, but they fail to point out that $5 or more of that price is taxes.

Another consideration is taxes on displacement. So if you can get decent performance from a smaller-displacement diesel, people will buy it and pay less tax on it.

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LuvMyTSX

My parents experienced what you mentioned as the tax on the engine displacement, otherwise known as the "on-road tax" in Belgium. My parents each had cars with diesel engines (dad - Opel Astra, mom - VW Polo). They loved those cars and could drive all over the place in them without stopping for gas. They were great road trip cars.

In Belgium, they also had taxes on radios in cars. IIRC, my mom didn't get a radio in her car until they took that tax away.

LukeaTron

I see your viewpoint and I should state that a lot of what I'm talking about is in the 5 to 10 years from now time frame. I guess the main point I want to make is that diesel technology has moved at a much slower pace than gasoline engines in the size ranges applicable to passenger cars. There's lots of cool thing done on the super huge scale engines that are in boats, trains and other extremely high power applications. There are still lots of 'easy' improvements that can be made to automotive diesel engines.

For what it's worth, current diesel passenger cars are something like 30% to 40% more efficient in a mile per gallon comparison than their gasoline counterparts. So already modern diesel cars are producing 15% to 25% less CO2 than their gasoline brethren. Unfortunately they're also producing a lot more particulates, and nitrogen and sulfur compounds. Better refining processes will reduce the sulfur output and there are 3 way catalytic converters in testing that reduce a lot of nitrogen compounds.

Really the big thing in the way at the moment is the lack of available 'clean' diesel. It's hardly the end all, be all solution but it's a good intermediate step for both the environment and the consumer. We just need a few more pieces to fall into place before it's really viable.

LuvMyTSX

Something else might cause some problems down the road for diesels. The government wants ships to start using the clean diesel fuel as well, but right now there isn't much refining capacity for it. Ships obviously use A LOT of fuel, so there could also be a shortage if this is required.

CL6

How else could they run their semi-socialist paradise?

Mike_TX

Ain't that the truth.

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fstshrk

Yep, a place where people have healthcare (universal), good schools and reasonable expectation of a pension when they retire. Just ask some of the retired airline pilots that lost most of their pensions.

Paying 8/gallon seems like a small compromise for having peace of mind.

Mike_TX

My friends in the U.K. and Europe would disagree with you. Their taxes are absolutely oppressive, their healthcare stinks (sure, everyone has it, but what does it matter if it's substandard?), their public schools are only mediocre by world standards, and their pension is just a version of our Social Security.

It's no coincidence that Europe is NOT a world power any longer.

And I would respectfully suggest that if you are willing to trade a few bucks for "peace of mind", there's always the paradise of Cuba, or Soviet Russia (darn, that's right - they collapsed, didn't they?). Oh, well, maybe China ... no, they've discovered Capitalism, too. Hmmmm. Well, you can always vote for a democrat and cross your fingers ...

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black label

This is all fine and good, but what does it have to do with a diesel RL that can be converted to run on used vegetable oil?

neuronbob

OK guys, enough with the politics. Take it to our Ramblings (Off-Topic) forum.

Mike_TX

^ See - that's why Bob's a Mod and we're not. Politics is so closely integrated with our lives - and our cars - that we can wobble off topic pretty easily.

But the whole issue of diesel v. gasoline is pretty complex, and diesel is only one of a number of technologies we may have to look to in the coming years. It may indeed emerge as the engine of choice, but in the long run it has the same limitations as gasoline ... namely that it requires petroleum to fuel it.

If I had to guess, I'd say that electricity in some form will be powering our vehicles 50 years from now. That of course depends on our developing some way to generate and store it that doesn't require fossil fuels. I don't think hybrids will be the answer long-term, but that's just my opinion. Instead, I think we'll be using nuclear power generation and super-batteries that are small and light, recharge quickly and store a lot of energy. That, coupled with high-efficiency electric motors, will make for a clean, efficient and inexpensive power source.

Since I won't be here 50 years from now, someone make a note to tell others I told you so.

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jhr3uva90

Yes, diesel is petroleum based like gasoline. However, what if it became popular to use a diesel/bio-diesel mix? That would use substantially less than gasoline. That could "stretch out" the petroleum supply until non-petroleum based solutions are perfected. There are endless possibilities here.

black label

The other point to remember here is that the "diesel" fuel we know today has nothing to do with what Rudolf Diesel invented. The compression combustion engine he designed was to be run on fuel that farmers could produce themselves (like vegetable oil). It was the petroleum industry in the 20's that was convinced that there was a profit to be made by running these engines on a crudely refined form of petrol we now have come to know as diesel.

Unfortunately politics have a lot to do with this. As someone mentioned before, you can't register a new diesel vehicle in MA. We have new laws forcing companies to run diesel equipment on the "low sulfur diesel".

There is a garage in Boston that makes bio diesel in their back yard as well as converts diesels (and turbo diesels) to run on recycled vegetable oil (affectionately called "grease"). Even these vehicles are technically illegal. Not for emission reasons, because the Government doesn't get to collect on the fuel tax that is charged at the pump.

Greengreasemonkey.com

If your interested in a grease car.

matt_21484

^^^^___That is the main reason why I would purchase a diesel. Run it on vegetable oil from McDonald's. There are enough people addicted to that stuff more than cigarettes.

This might be getting off topic, but I don't think there is a law stating, you must operate a vehicle on taxed gasoline. I'm no lawyer so I don't know how this works, but thats my logic. I know that this is an endless debate, but just my

LukeaTron

http://www.mass.gov/dep/air/community/dieselqa.htm

That took about 3 seconds to find.

He wasn't saying that the law states you must run on taxed gasoline, rather that it is the unrwritten agenda to which the law accedes. That part might be debatable.

TampaRLX-SH

Honda is anticipating that it's diesels will be 50 state legal...

The engine uses a NOx converter to achieve certification in all 50 states and Honda engineers claim the technology can be applied to bigger engines, such as a V6, without adding urea injection. Volkswagen uses a similar NOx converter on smaller diesel engines but has to inject urea into the exhaust when the engine is applied to its larger vehicles to make it 50-state compliant.

Honda's claim that its diesel engine technology can be applied to larger vehicles indicates a diesel-powered Pilot could be on the way

http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-to...09-accord.html

matt_21484

I was referencing the whole topic of converting a diesel to run on used vegetable oil Lukea, but good find on the MASS article. I know I have read other forums on the legality of driving a diesel car on vegetable oil. Since you purchase the oil from a person/business entity, no road taxes is collected by the government. (Unless you do so on your own accord).


All Acuras (most at least) should be running on premium fuel anyways, so the jump to diesel isn't that expensive, if there is a difference in price at all. Again, just my $.02

I've actually been eyeballing a 2005 MB E320 CDI for when my 03' CLS bites the dust. I plan on driving the CL until it won't drive anymore, but if Acura has a reliable diesel out by then, I'd love to have it.