acurasofla

The current generation is two years along. How many years will it be before it gets replaced?

TacoBellSauce

probably by 2008

JMikeF

2008 might be a tad too soon. I thought the cycle was 5-7 years for major upgrades.

mrdeeno

at the rate the TL/TSX/MDX sells, they can go with their regular schedule. But at the rate the RL is selling vs. the expectations, they better not stick to the regular schedule.

bkw

In the 08 or 09 model, there'll probably be a subtle fascia change - Bumpers, headlights, wheels, and some minor interior changes. With Honda's historical upgrade trend, I cant foresee them doing a complete redesign until at least 2010.

TacoBellSauce

according to temple of Vtec (vtec.net) the RL will recieve a Minor Model change or a facelift in 2007 and a full model change or redesign around 2009-2010

mrdeeno

going with historical Honda/Acura trends, they'll let the RL sit around as-is for another 4 years, do a minor facelift, let it marinade for another 4, all the while focusing on their TSX and TL.

then around early 2013, they'll start letting it slip how "PHENOMENAL" the next RL will be, then underwhelm everyone when they introduce it in late 2013 as a 2014 model with a v6 engine and super-duper-left-wheel-drive (SD-LWD) to compete with the new uber-luxury V10 powered RWD-hybrid Hyundai Aidnuyh. Then they'll sit around scratching their heads wondering why their PHENOMENAL RL won't meet their 5000 per year sales goal...then they have an epiphany when they realize that the 2014 Hyundai Accent is powered by a V8 engine.

Mike_TX

Well, that'll get you flamed pretty good, mrdeeno!

mrdeeno

Hey, if people can't take sarcasm that may even have an ounce of truth to it, what can i say?

flame throwers ON!

Rob L

mr deeno,

hehe that was good. Anyone who gets offended by that needs to chill.

Rob L

Here is what I would like:

Honda adds a V8 to the car next year (so 08 model year) so all the V8 fanboys acting like it is sooooo important can quit bishing about something that doesnt mean much to the people buying these types of cars. Oh and they also chuck RWD into the car as well which turns out to be inferior to the SH-AWD system but again, rwd fanboys can not bish about the car not having that.

Both of these of course end up doing nothing for sales and thus the critics of the car acting like RWD/V8 are the huge factors find out they really are trivial to sales and they realize the key to sales is prestige, the most asinine thing humans can follow with their car/product purchases. Still, they will continue to rpeach on about V8/RWD even if it could be proven as fact they arent the reaosns why the RL's sales are low.

I stand by my feeling you could take the RL as is, slap a BMW prop, Lexus L or MB star on the hood and everyone would jizz on it who doesn't jizz on the RL right now.

stingerbtry

mrdeeno

kinda like this guy?

bkw

That's so hot! Is that the new 6 series sedan??




On a sorta related note, I dont know about you guys, but there are quite a few RL's in my area (westchester county, ny) and I see at least one a day.

stingerbtry

Same here, at least one a day but usually 2-3.

SPUDMTN

I can't say it enough...but no one will admit to it. It drives me nuts...

mrdeeno

I don't want to risk another "Why RL sales sucks" flamewar, but i'm going to express my opinion on this anyway. If you agree, great, if not, great.

1) Yes, RL sales are low due to lack of prestige, which is a stupid reason, but a REAL reason nonetheless. How to increase sales? Increase prestige!

2) How to increase prestige? by competing with the established prestigous brands...MB/BMW, and to an extent, Lex. In order to compete, they have to offer more or less the same "variety" of choices to the demanding luxury buyer.

3) Major choices that every other luxury make seems to offer is engine choices (6, 8, and sometimes more), drive choices (RWD, AWD), and options choices (tech packages, prem. packages, a la carte, etc.).

None of the established makes offer the same number or type of choices, but they are similar in that there is more "customization" that is possible for their cars, especially when it comes to major options.

Now some of y'all continue to maintain that the slow sales are due to lack of V8 and RWD. In a way, it is...because this is what the "established" brands offer, and if Acura doesn't offer it, people won't consider Acura "established" at the same level.

So to sum it up:

Other Prestigous makes offer V8+RWD+options+etc ==> General public perceives V8+RWD+options+etc as synonymous with prestigious brands.

Acura lacks V8+RWD+options+etc ==> General public perceives Acura as not as prestigous as others ==> Luxury buyers among the general public would rather buy from a prestigous brand.

Having these things does not translate directly to more sales...it is a halo-effect that makes the public consider the brand more prestigious.

Is this politically correct, logical, or even fair? Hell no! But it's reality that the general public is NOT politically correct, logical or fair.

There are the few people who are enthusiasts and can see cars past the badge, but for every 1 of these people, there are 1000 people who don't care about what's past the badge. Acura ALREADY scored the few buyers who look past the badge...they need to score buyers who won't look past the badge if they want to sell more.

They also lost buyers like myself, who are willing to look past the badge, but DO want a V8 and other options. How many of these buyers are there? I have no idea but there are probably a few. But buyers like me are not the key to scoring more sales...buyers like the rich dude next door's trophy wife is the key to scoring more sales.

You listening, Acura? Score the neighbors trophy wife and you're golden!

jhr3uva90

Which brings us to the question: does Acura want to be like Volvo or like Lexus? People are williing to spend $35K on a Volvo (a "premium" brand), but not $45K. On the other hand, people are willing to spend $45K or more on a Lexus or another "luxury" brand. Where does Acura want to go? For the most part, they are doing well as a premium brand. Maybe they don't want to take a chance on competing in the luxury space? If they do, however, they are going to have to offer more choices like mrdeeno said, even if they lose money in the short run. Also, they will have to create a full-size car with at LEAST a V8 like the Audi A8. A GT or a true sports car wouldn't hurt, either. In addition to product, Acura will need to figure out a way to improve the dealerships (that they don't own) so that the dealerships are consistently good. Finally, they are going to have to do some serious marketing the way Lexus has done for the past 16 years.

I don't know if Acura (or Honda corporate) really wants to do this. Killing off the RSX will be a first step, but only one step. Judging from the new RDX, Acura seems to want to solidify is premium-brand status instead of going luxury. Oh well, maybe when the V10 is ready. . .

mrdeeno

The thing that concerns me is the movement of makes like Hyundai...which is why my sarcastic comment above has an ounce of truth.

Hyundai was considered a sub- brand relative to Honda/Toyota/Nissan only several years back. Through several years of imitating the established 3, and more or less moving closer and closer to being a true competitor to these 3, they have raised their image in a short time.

I don't think Hyundai is going to stop at the Honda/Toy/Nis level...they're going to eventually start competing at the Acura/Volvo/Saab level...look at the Azera, which is probably a legit comeptitor to the Avalon/Maxima segment...a segment Honda is not in.

IF Acura wants to raise thier "prestige" status, they should apply the same formula as Infinit has applied it successfully...first by more or less imitating the established players and becoming more and more direct competition for the established brands.

I think Acura already has the Volvo/Saab brands beat...but since Volvo is starting to offer V8's, it'll be interseting how they do.

jhr3uva90

Please bear in mind, that most of the people driving cars don't really know about CARS, they know about BRANDS. If you remove the brand names from an Accord, Camry, previous-generation TL, current-generation RL, or any Lexus ES, laypeople would have a hard time identifying any of those cars. However, a person who knows nothing about cars can identify the Lexus brand and the IMANGE that comes with it.

Hyundai can make some impressive cars in the future, but the masses will only see the Hyundai brand name. It's unfair to Hyundai's actual cars.

Another example is Buick. They can have Tiger Woods in their commercials until hell freezes over, but the masses will always perceive Buick as being an old folk's brand. Again, it's unfair to the cars.

To my knowledge, Acura has never had a successful car that costs over $45K. That's mainly because of how the masses view the Acura brand. Infiniti, on the other hand, does not have any stigma to overcome, because most people have either never heard of the brand or forgot about it. Infiniti has the advantage of a clean slate.

IF Acura wants to move from premium to luxury, they have a lot of work to do, from car design to marketing. The question is whether Honda corporate in Japan thinks the work is worth it.

SPUDMTN

Am I the only one who does not see Infiniti as successfully raised to prestige status? I really don't think Infiniti knows what they're doing either...they have some things more "right" than Acura but are still a long ways behind the European luxury brands...

jhr3uva90

If overall sales are any indication, Acura has been doing more "right" over the past 6 years or so than Infiniti has. However, I think Infiniti is a brand to watch. They've ol' Carlos in charge and some Renault money to spend on things like the FM platform. Switching Infiniti vehicles over to a RWD platform was a bold move. I think that, in order for Acura to be taken seriously as a luxury brand, they might have to do something similar.

JMikeF

In college, the saying "he was selling Buicks the next morning" meant that someone drank too much and spent the next AM in the bathroom puking his guts out!

mrdeeno

Agreed...Infiniti is not at the same level as the established makes...but anyone can see that they are OBVIOUSLY and EXPLICITLY trying to raise their image by competing solidly with the established makes.

I and many others always regarded Infiniti BELOW Acura when they were selling G20's and Max...I mean I30/35's. Now they are selling cars that are considered competition to the established players, and this will raise their image, which it already has...maybe not to the levels of the established players, but definitely above Acura/Volvo/Saab levels.

mrdeeno

But you are forgetting one thing...several years back, Hyundai was NOT on the shopping radars of many consumers.

But recently their sales have increased...not due to cheaper/worse cars, but better cars. People who previously would not consider a Hyundai are now considering them...and this is because their brand image has been raised. As the cars get better and better, people will slowly start to perceive Hyundai with these better cars and eventually, their "history" won't even be remembered.

Another brand to look at is Saturn and their current releases.

A company does not raise its brand image by not explicitily trying. And maybe Acura does not want to "explicitly" try, as this is an admission that it doesn't see it's brand image as high enough and I have a feeling that the ones in charge are too "proud" to admit that.

Further, I think Acura has a decent name and it would NOT have a hard time trying to raise its brand image...only if it actually tried harder to.

No, I agree...it's NOT fair to Hyundai or Acura or any other brand...but that's reality and if they want to play, they have to play by these unfair rules.

Shotgun

...

-----------------------------------------

I love my 05 RL! However, I must, reluctantly agree with Mrdeeno! He's spot on and speaks the truth. Additionally it doesn't help Acura to sell the RL in Japan as a Honda "Legend" - their global marketing strategy is text book screwed up! Bottom Line is that the RL offers phenominal value - but, and this is significant, until it earnestly competes with and surpasses it's so-called peers (Benz, BMW, Infiniti, etc.) on a "performance" and "design" level...it will always be considered lower tier!

It appears that Honda (Acura) has finally given up on the notion of only offering "naturally aspirated" powerplants, as evidenced with the introduction of the turbo-powered RDX and announcing future powerplants with more than six cylinders and outright stating that a V10 is being developed - they may have "seen the light" - let's hope they don't screw up this next and potentially "last" opportunity for them to become world-class!!

Give me a revolutionary 3.5-4.0 litre V8 or V10 with active cylinder management (shut down half of them on a demand or auto basis), pumping out 400 hp with no less than 350 lbft of torque, placed on a SH-AWD platform, offering distinctive, quasi aggressive and consistent styling (read unique non-changing "identity" grille al' la BMW), and continue to satisfy my "geek" needs with usable tech goodies and I'll open my check book...(BTW, I have no heartburn with Hybrid and/or turbo varieties of the aforementioned).

Are you listening Honda/Acura?

Shotgun

You're right! 5 to 7 appears the norm...The last change-over occurred from the 1999-2004 model year. However, to stay viable in the luxury field arena they may have to accelerate the process this time around and open the gates in 2008, but nothing later than 2009! However, something tells me they'll open the gates for the new "RL" (If that's what it'll be called) in 2010 by offering three versions, a V6 and V8 standard type model augmented with an upscale V10 series model along the BMW 6/7 series line...

Your thoughts?

dalieu

A lot decisions made by Acura are redicious. The RDX coming out soon has a turbo, however will only have a manual passanger seat! What's up with that?!?! You're supposed to be a "luxury" brand.

Cars don't sell themselves, Acura's marketing is almost non-existent. I'm a big fan of Fox's series 24 and you know what I noticed? This past season, there were excellent shots of Infiniti, Lexus, and Toyota cars in it. It was like a commercial during the show. My girl's older sister (brand snob) even commented, "Look a Toyota." These ppl know almost nothing about cars, except their brand and what they see on tv, but they do buy them. A lot of ppl don't even know the TSX exists.

I can look past the badge and have a TSX (which everyone on acurazine knows is a Euro Accord), but Acura has got to stop mixing the two brands (Honda/Acura) together. It lowers the Acura image.

jhr3uva90

Regarding the last-generation RL, I believe the years were 1996 - 2004. It was a long time before the current RL was released. I hope they don't wait that long for the next one. In fact, I think they should reduce the RL's product cycle to 4 years so they can "keep up with the Jones." Unfortunately, I think the RL's product cycle is decided soley by Honda in Japan.

Regarding the RDX and the manual seats, Acura (and this IS an Acura decision) likes to add new technology that they can advertise like a turbo engine and then scrimp on features that customers might not notice until they buy the car like a manual passenger seat. Infiniti took similar shortcuts with the G35. The goal is the keep the vehicles at a certain price point. Does that help the overall brand image? Probably not. But I think the fact that Acura lacks a full-size flagship hurts is image more than the lack of a power passenger seat.

I think dalieu made a very good point regarding product placement. We can only hope that Acura does that in the near future!

TacoBellSauce

i wouldnt worry about the manual passenger seat, the 2004 TSX had the same but power was standard in the 2005
i believe it will be the same with the RDX

busterrobertson

yeah i am starting to become increasingly annoyed with how acura is acting, like the lack of power seat in the RDX and lack of v8 in the RL, and the worst of all the FWD in all the cars. Thank goodness acura is finally moving the the SH-AWD in their cars as they get changed. it is essential for acura to add v8 and hybrid. (yes hybrid because lexus is adding hybrids like the LS600h which will compete with the v12s...even though i think hybrids are wastes) even the MDX isn't going to have a v8, which in my opinion is outrageous because you have the FX45 and other competitors that have v8s. if acura doesn't do something with their next cycle they will fall behind infiniti because they are rapidly moving that direction. acura has the looks of being a real player with the beauties of cars like the TL and RL, but i know alot of people wont go any further than the test drive because of the lack of RWD in the TL and lack of v8 in RL.

quite frankly i think that if someone is going to spend 30-34K$ on a cross over SUV like the RDX with tech package with traffic nav and bluetooth and hell even those tire pressure monitor system, theyd expect to get a power passenger seat. and this whole thing about they have to have something to add later on in the next year, thats not saying much for acura being such an innovative company as it is.

acura needs to push the envelope on their cars...like BMW adding a twinturbo system to the 3 series, lexus with the hybrids, and infiniti cranking out those high hp numbers.

at least acura does one very important thing right...and that is making acuras and hondas look very very different compared to lexus and toyota.

with all this said people may say damn dont get an acura then....and well i have my CL and love it and my family in all has 5 acuras. acura is my favorite car company and i think they put excellent cars out, i just want to see them step it up in the increasingly fast paced car market.

mrdeeno

I wouldn't worry too much. If Honda/Acura decides to stay only in the lower-premium segment ...there will always be another automaker to take its place in the upper luxury class.

I'm saving up for the v10 powered RWD Hyundai Iadnuyh with reverse night vision camera, panoramic floorboards, Xenon HID brakelights, turbocharged air conditioning, 10 pedestrian airbags, and a navigation system that can guide you to Jupiter in reverse.

jhr3uva90

Hyundai can add all of those features and a kung fu grip, and people still won't buy it because they are brand whores and will think "it's still just a Hyundai."

mrdeeno

I disagree...perceptions of brand image can and do evolve. I think you are too caught up on "image" being such an unchanging characteristic.

I believe that "image" / prestige / whatever is reflective of product.

If an automaker puts out crap, its image will be crap. If an automaker puts out decent but not exciting products, this will be their image. If an automaker puts out super luxurious cars, this will be their image.

There have been many examples of "image" movement within the past 20 years. Honda/Toy had an image of cheap economy cars because that's what they produced. As their products evolved upmarket, so did their image.

Hyundai was considered a producer of cheap and crappy economy cars just 10 years ago. But as their products improved and Hyundai WORKED to improve their image, their image has improved and is only slightly behind the established import brands. I give them another 5-10 years before their image is considered on par with Honda/Toy/Niss. If they aggressively push thier lineup upmarket, I have no doubt they will eventually surpass Honda/toy/Niss if these makes don't evolve.

The reason that Acura's image is not at the level of Lex/MB/BMW is because its product line is not at the level of Lex/MB/BMW. Acura's products are "premium" products, but they also have a lot of "value"...so their image is just that...a "premium value" automaker.

In other words, Acura's image won't be considered equal to the established makes until it's products are considered equal to the established makes.

And it's not a once and done deal...it's all about maintaining the image also. Which is why VW failed with the Phaeton...the product was decent but with many problems...and not only that the level of service sucked.

jhr3uva90

Yes, but image is the reason why Honda started the Acura brand and Toyota started Lexus in the first place. Image can evolve, but evolution is inherently gradual. It would take something revolutionary for Hyundai to get a luxury image and I don't see that happening.

Also, it would take something radical for Acura's image to go from "premium value" to "luxury." In Acura's case, they would not only have to change their cars (change their design to look less "Honda," change over to RWD, etc.), but they would have to change their policies toward their dealerships (incentives for sales people to sell the more expensive cars, for example), change their promotions (sponsorships, commercials, etc.), and really push for the upscale market.

jhr3uva90

I can't completely agree with this statement. Mercedes has been releasing "crap" products for years, but people still want Benzes. The cars are still as popular as ever, despite the fact that publications like Consumer Reports warn that Mercedes' reliability is poor. Unfortunately, we cannot underestimate the power of image. It's a shame, really.

mrdeeno

But when I say "crap", i am not talking about one aspect (such as reliability) of the car/brand.

MB may suffer in reliability, but they also have a lot of high tech features, power, comfort features, options, etc. etc. that make it appealing. So no, MB has NOT been releasing crap product for years...they've been releasing very appealing products that stretch the technological and power envelope (how much power/torque is in an sl600?). These products just happen to have below par reliability, but that's no big deal since their "appeal" outweighs that.

Again, it seems you are so caught up on "image" being a rigid/unchanging thing. Yes, you cannot underestimate the power of image...which is why its better to increase image than to maintain it.

Acura's image has not changed not because it can't...Acura's image has not changed because Acura continues to "play it safe" with its product lineup rather than focusing on "breaking the mold".

who knows, they may be content with where they're at since they do have a pretty decent "sensible-but-still-premium" image. but I honestly believe they are in the right position to break out of this staid image if they would just push the envelope and quit "playing it safe", like when they introduced the first NSX.

Ibn Rushd

Once the NSX hits the showroom with the V10 and actually knocks out Ferrari and Lamborghini AGAIN (Because they did it with the NSX before, they beat the F355, and i believe gave a low end Diablo/Countache a run for it's money).

Acura will be then put on the prestige market, as well as the supercar market. From the NSX, comes a RWD sedan above the RL. then the cash flow is easier then eating pie. It all depends on the NSX.


It wasn't long ago when Honda used to be what Hyundai is today either.

jhr3uva90

True, Honda used to have the same esteem as Hyundai has today. That's why they created the Acura brand. The question is whether they can take Acura higher. The new NSX will help tremendously. However, realize that no Acura over $45K has ever been a big seller, despite how good the car is. Acura needs to do something about that, or the next NSX will sell just as poorly as the last one.

Ibn Rushd

Not necessarily. However if they are looking at the 100-150 price tag...as long as it outruns Ferrari and Lamborghini, as well as Porsche, they may get somewhere. However the problem is, until they actually knock out Lexus, BMW and Benz, LS, 7, and S respectively, they won't be taken seriously as a luxury car maker, but a near-luxo car maker. The problem doesn't lie in Acura's brand, but the idiots who're basing things on false prestige.


It's not Acura's fault for the idiots int he world...but they just have to work harder. However, despite the NSX's bad selling point, which face it, it will have, although not necessarily, but you're most likely correct, once a higher level sedan arrives, beyond the RL, which if they price it correctly, will destroy the competition.

The only reason Acura's not selling anything above 45K is because of lack of RWD (which the Sh-AWD system takes care of, if you think about it) a V8.

If you're in the market for a 65 000 car, American (I'm in Canada, so i'm specifying, my 65 large is your 49 so...) anyway, but would you pick up a 65 000 and just want a V6? No, right. You want the powerhouse to back it up, especially if you're paying that much money. Unless you get a lower version, which in that case. Then there's the 80 000+ sedans, where you DEFFINETLY don't want a V6 pulling that, or a V6 Turbo'd...just doesn't have the finesse as a V8, right?

That's why the first NSX didn't sell. V6? Boohoo, no ones coughing up that much amount of money for 280 horses, despite outrunning the 355 from Ferrari, with a bit of ease.

So the new NSX, 100 grand, V10, Sh-AWD, and if it's Mid Engined....it might just be what Acura needed. If it's Front Engined, Sh-AWD, it'll STILL go somewhere..just maybe not as great a deal. It has potential, they just have very little room to screw it up. Especially when it's giving way to the "XGA" prototype. And that engine will end up in five cars....

NSX V10
XGA V8
RL V8
MDX V8
Pilot V8 - This is a joke, i doubt they'll do that. However supposedly they are..doubt it though.
Ridgeline V8

Then for kicks i say drop a V8 into the Odyssey as a prototype and gauge everyones reaction.

Then knowing Honda, the V8 might have the cylinder diactivation system shown in the Odyssey and 300C.

So, it has potential...let's see what happens. Although the only reason the RL didn't sell was because of the lack of V8 and as someone mentioned, the image of being cost less, when it's the same 8-). People these days.