Spied: 2011 Acura RL rear-wheel-drive sedan test mule
06-12-2008, 03:22 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by static808
Correction to my earlier post. I should have said, the US can't function on $5/gallon.
cai06 is correct in that the world has been living with $8 and $9/gallon prices. But they have started to buckle and we shall see what happens...globally
Hopefully the Acura V8 will see $3/gallon. Not likely in 2011...but you never know.
cai06 is correct in that the world has been living with $8 and $9/gallon prices. But they have started to buckle and we shall see what happens...globally
Hopefully the Acura V8 will see $3/gallon. Not likely in 2011...but you never know.
im all for a v8rl, even if it does not sell well, its all about the image and Acura "advancing"
06-12-2008, 07:22 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by dwest1023
Looks guys. A big luxury or exotic car with V8 v12 says I have arrived and I have money. The RL will NEVER say that. As been said, they are a day late and a dollar short. As much as I love our 06 RL, if I ha REAL money I would not be driven one.
But for price point of mid 40s or so, RL is a sensible and great buy. And it even comes with an option that noone has asked for, "to blend in with all other accords and camrys in the parking lot".
V8 RL...It must be tough for Acura...Hyundai is sticking its head way up to Acura in "sensible buy" market. And Acura is...not quite considered on the same league as Lexus these days. So Acura is stuck in between what peole consider as Japanese Luxury brand (Lexus) and Asian sensible brand (Hyundai)...
06-12-2008, 07:29 AM
#43
Go Big Blue!
I hope everyone arguing that a small v8 option pack with a 6+ AT, cylinder deactivation, etc., is what occurs. I agree with those who say it's needed for Acura's image. I'm just just not as certain as many.
All I can go by is history. Honda has ALWAYS been about fuel efficiency at the expense of everything else. It's deep in their culture. Question is; Will they break with that strategy - especially given the current world affairs?
I for one will be surprised if they come out with an RL having an over the top 400+hp engine. Something like the current Lexus LS460 makes more sense if the RL also grows significantly to that size. Anything more seems like wild ass rumors ignoring reality.
In the end, this is a business. The leaders are here to set a strategy and make business decisions that result in profit. People like to bash this company for their conservative nature. Some of it is probably justifiable. But this business model has served them well. Here's that article again that I read yesterday about Honda. Keep this in mind when we start reading rumors about a 400+hp sedan from these guys.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...806110389/1148
All I can go by is history. Honda has ALWAYS been about fuel efficiency at the expense of everything else. It's deep in their culture. Question is; Will they break with that strategy - especially given the current world affairs?
I for one will be surprised if they come out with an RL having an over the top 400+hp engine. Something like the current Lexus LS460 makes more sense if the RL also grows significantly to that size. Anything more seems like wild ass rumors ignoring reality.
In the end, this is a business. The leaders are here to set a strategy and make business decisions that result in profit. People like to bash this company for their conservative nature. Some of it is probably justifiable. But this business model has served them well. Here's that article again that I read yesterday about Honda. Keep this in mind when we start reading rumors about a 400+hp sedan from these guys.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...806110389/1148
06-12-2008, 08:02 AM
#44
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Mike_TX
Boston - Some brands may sell only 10% V-8's but I'll guarantee you EVERY Lexus LS sold in the United States since Lexus' inception in 1989 has been a V-8. And they ain't doing too badly with them, either. Lexus sold over 70,000 V-8 units in 2007, of which over half were LS460's. Acura would love to sell 35,000 RL's.
But you made your own point: Acura wants to be a big player like a Lexus or BMW, but it isn't going to be until it steps up and loads a V-8 into its top-of-the-line car like the big boys.
And RWD is hardly the domain of forum fanboys. I daresay AWD fits that description much better. The only people who "whine" for AWD are snowbunnies up north and boy racers who figure they can go faster around corners with it (or at least TELL people they can).
Come on - stick your head up outside of this forum and you won't see a huge a clamor for AWD aside from the Audi groups, and Audi guys are a breed unto themselves anyway. But people aren't exactly complaining about their BMW M's or their AMG M-B's or their Mustang Cobras or Dodge Vipers not being quick enough or good enough because they lack AWD.
SH-AWD is nice in the snowbelt, in the same way a Jeep 4WD is nice ... it helps you keep going in the white stuff. But people outside the upper midwest and northeast generally couldn't care less about it, handling claims or not. Sorry, that's just the truth. Ask any dealer south of the Mason-Dixon. Then ask how many Mercedes Benzes and BMW's and even Infinitis and Lexuses they sell with AWD.
Look, Acura is suffering and it needs to figure out who it is and where it's going. It's going to either be a front-wheel drive, mid-range carmaker with a line of SUV's, or it's going to be in the true luxury car market with the big guys. If it wants to keep cranking out V-6 FWD cars and compete with Honda and Toyota, fine. But if it wants a true luxury-level car, it can't pussyfoot around with a 6-cylinder engine. At least not as its only option. And it can't keep trying to sell people on the notion its AWD is some magic antidote for V-8 power.
I still maintain Acura makes damn fine cars, but if it wants to keep an RL-type car in its lineup, it HAS to have RWD and a V-8 option. And people who want V-6's can either get it as a lower-cost option or just buy an Accord.
Bias? Wow, I think the AWD bias is getting thick in here!
.
.
But you made your own point: Acura wants to be a big player like a Lexus or BMW, but it isn't going to be until it steps up and loads a V-8 into its top-of-the-line car like the big boys.
And RWD is hardly the domain of forum fanboys. I daresay AWD fits that description much better. The only people who "whine" for AWD are snowbunnies up north and boy racers who figure they can go faster around corners with it (or at least TELL people they can).
Come on - stick your head up outside of this forum and you won't see a huge a clamor for AWD aside from the Audi groups, and Audi guys are a breed unto themselves anyway. But people aren't exactly complaining about their BMW M's or their AMG M-B's or their Mustang Cobras or Dodge Vipers not being quick enough or good enough because they lack AWD.
SH-AWD is nice in the snowbelt, in the same way a Jeep 4WD is nice ... it helps you keep going in the white stuff. But people outside the upper midwest and northeast generally couldn't care less about it, handling claims or not. Sorry, that's just the truth. Ask any dealer south of the Mason-Dixon. Then ask how many Mercedes Benzes and BMW's and even Infinitis and Lexuses they sell with AWD.
Look, Acura is suffering and it needs to figure out who it is and where it's going. It's going to either be a front-wheel drive, mid-range carmaker with a line of SUV's, or it's going to be in the true luxury car market with the big guys. If it wants to keep cranking out V-6 FWD cars and compete with Honda and Toyota, fine. But if it wants a true luxury-level car, it can't pussyfoot around with a 6-cylinder engine. At least not as its only option. And it can't keep trying to sell people on the notion its AWD is some magic antidote for V-8 power.
I still maintain Acura makes damn fine cars, but if it wants to keep an RL-type car in its lineup, it HAS to have RWD and a V-8 option. And people who want V-6's can either get it as a lower-cost option or just buy an Accord.
Bias? Wow, I think the AWD bias is getting thick in here!
.
.
If you think that internet forums represent anything close to the mentality of the car-buying public at large, you're even more delusional than you appear to be in your frequent update posts about your precious Lexus. The vast majority of car buyers could give a rat's @ss about V8 engines. That's the domain of forum fanboys and car mag writers.
It may be too late for Acura but they will likely be vindicated in the long run. I agree with Mikey - a small block V8 with better fuel efficiency than the current V6 is the most likely path. A 400hp V8 is ludicrous with gas anywhere near current levels (outside of a low production NSX type car) especially with the impending CAFE regulations.
And for those who think gasoline is outrageously expensive in the rest of the world, think again. It's $8-9/gallon in Europe because of ridiculously high taxes to support their socialist welfare states. In most other parts of the world it's subsidized by the governments to fuel growth. China pays less than half what we do, and most of the countries in the Middle East pay less than $1/gallon.
And Mike, if you think there's too much AWD bias here, feel free to stay over at your beloved Lexus forum and commiserate with the rest of the owners whose Nav systems don't work while the car is moving.
06-12-2008, 08:45 AM
#45
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First off, it isn't just people in Europe paying more for gas than the U.S.. Here in Ontario it is 1.30/litre for regular unleaded today which works out to slightly under 5 bucks per gallon. 3 days ago it would come to 5.26/gallon. So please my American friends, quit acting like you guys have it worse than most others when you don't.
As for this rumour of the 2011 RL...I say it won't really do anything magical to increase sales especially if the car isn't far more efficient than it is now. I am all for a RWD only option but don't drop SH-AWD because I never again want to own a non-awd car as my daily driver as long as i live where some snow can fall.
About the V8...seems silly to me but hey, I don't jack it daily to having a V8 and all that jazz. I have yet to be in a situation (that I can remember) where my 05 RL's power/acceleration wasn't enough so why do I need/want a V8 other than to try and show off? Silly. But hey, if others do then whatever floats your boat.
I would say if they are going to do those things they actually come out with an auto tranny that doesn't suck and hit a 7 or 8 gear baby. As Mike has stated, the LS460 has better fuel economy than the RL and hell, my parents' LS430 from 01 has around the same or slightly better fuel economy. The RL tranny flat out sucks for this and it amuses me that they could be thinking of only a 6 speed jig for a car 2-3 years away. Then again, with them finally thinking a V8 as an option and RWD when clearly at least one of those is decreasing in demand seems to simply show Honda is slooooooooooooow to get with the program.
If Honda truly wanted to come out with something groundbreaking they would be working on making the next new RL an electric car. I bet it'd sell like hotcakes but hey, stick to the same old lame V8 crap like the rest of the retarded mainstream automakers who seem to not want to innovate the same old tired ass industry.
Right now I'd love to own a Tesla Roadster and I can only hope it is successful and Tesla is able to move forward and produce that electric sedan that is rumoured and it can be a bit more affordable than the roadster is.
As for this rumour of the 2011 RL...I say it won't really do anything magical to increase sales especially if the car isn't far more efficient than it is now. I am all for a RWD only option but don't drop SH-AWD because I never again want to own a non-awd car as my daily driver as long as i live where some snow can fall.
About the V8...seems silly to me but hey, I don't jack it daily to having a V8 and all that jazz. I have yet to be in a situation (that I can remember) where my 05 RL's power/acceleration wasn't enough so why do I need/want a V8 other than to try and show off? Silly. But hey, if others do then whatever floats your boat.
I would say if they are going to do those things they actually come out with an auto tranny that doesn't suck and hit a 7 or 8 gear baby. As Mike has stated, the LS460 has better fuel economy than the RL and hell, my parents' LS430 from 01 has around the same or slightly better fuel economy. The RL tranny flat out sucks for this and it amuses me that they could be thinking of only a 6 speed jig for a car 2-3 years away. Then again, with them finally thinking a V8 as an option and RWD when clearly at least one of those is decreasing in demand seems to simply show Honda is slooooooooooooow to get with the program.
If Honda truly wanted to come out with something groundbreaking they would be working on making the next new RL an electric car. I bet it'd sell like hotcakes but hey, stick to the same old lame V8 crap like the rest of the retarded mainstream automakers who seem to not want to innovate the same old tired ass industry.
Right now I'd love to own a Tesla Roadster and I can only hope it is successful and Tesla is able to move forward and produce that electric sedan that is rumoured and it can be a bit more affordable than the roadster is.
06-12-2008, 08:47 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by Mike_TX
Boston - Some brands may sell only 10% V-8's but I'll guarantee you EVERY Lexus LS sold in the United States since Lexus' inception in 1989 has been a V-8. And they ain't doing too badly with them, either. Lexus sold over 70,000 V-8 units in 2007, of which over half were LS460's. Acura would love to sell 35,000 RL's.
But you made your own point: Acura wants to be a big player like a Lexus or BMW, but it isn't going to be until it steps up and loads a V-8 into its top-of-the-line car like the big boys.
And RWD is hardly the domain of forum fanboys. I daresay AWD fits that description much better. The only people who "whine" for AWD are snowbunnies up north and boy racers who figure they can go faster around corners with it (or at least TELL people they can).
Come on - stick your head up outside of this forum and you won't see a huge a clamor for AWD aside from the Audi groups, and Audi guys are a breed unto themselves anyway. But people aren't exactly complaining about their BMW M's or their AMG M-B's or their Mustang Cobras or Dodge Vipers not being quick enough or good enough because they lack AWD.
SH-AWD is nice in the snowbelt, in the same way a Jeep 4WD is nice ... it helps you keep going in the white stuff. But people outside the upper midwest and northeast generally couldn't care less about it, handling claims or not. Sorry, that's just the truth. Ask any dealer south of the Mason-Dixon. Then ask how many Mercedes Benzes and BMW's and even Infinitis and Lexuses they sell with AWD.
Look, Acura is suffering and it needs to figure out who it is and where it's going. It's going to either be a front-wheel drive, mid-range carmaker with a line of SUV's, or it's going to be in the true luxury car market with the big guys. If it wants to keep cranking out V-6 FWD cars and compete with Honda and Toyota, fine. But if it wants a true luxury-level car, it can't pussyfoot around with a 6-cylinder engine. At least not as its only option. And it can't keep trying to sell people on the notion its AWD is some magic antidote for V-8 power.
I still maintain Acura makes damn fine cars, but if it wants to keep an RL-type car in its lineup, it HAS to have RWD and a V-8 option. And people who want V-6's can either get it as a lower-cost option or just buy an Accord.
Bias? Wow, I think the AWD bias is getting thick in here!
.
.
But you made your own point: Acura wants to be a big player like a Lexus or BMW, but it isn't going to be until it steps up and loads a V-8 into its top-of-the-line car like the big boys.
And RWD is hardly the domain of forum fanboys. I daresay AWD fits that description much better. The only people who "whine" for AWD are snowbunnies up north and boy racers who figure they can go faster around corners with it (or at least TELL people they can).
Come on - stick your head up outside of this forum and you won't see a huge a clamor for AWD aside from the Audi groups, and Audi guys are a breed unto themselves anyway. But people aren't exactly complaining about their BMW M's or their AMG M-B's or their Mustang Cobras or Dodge Vipers not being quick enough or good enough because they lack AWD.
SH-AWD is nice in the snowbelt, in the same way a Jeep 4WD is nice ... it helps you keep going in the white stuff. But people outside the upper midwest and northeast generally couldn't care less about it, handling claims or not. Sorry, that's just the truth. Ask any dealer south of the Mason-Dixon. Then ask how many Mercedes Benzes and BMW's and even Infinitis and Lexuses they sell with AWD.
Look, Acura is suffering and it needs to figure out who it is and where it's going. It's going to either be a front-wheel drive, mid-range carmaker with a line of SUV's, or it's going to be in the true luxury car market with the big guys. If it wants to keep cranking out V-6 FWD cars and compete with Honda and Toyota, fine. But if it wants a true luxury-level car, it can't pussyfoot around with a 6-cylinder engine. At least not as its only option. And it can't keep trying to sell people on the notion its AWD is some magic antidote for V-8 power.
I still maintain Acura makes damn fine cars, but if it wants to keep an RL-type car in its lineup, it HAS to have RWD and a V-8 option. And people who want V-6's can either get it as a lower-cost option or just buy an Accord.
Bias? Wow, I think the AWD bias is getting thick in here!
.
.
06-12-2008, 08:52 AM
#47
office monkey
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First off, it isn't just people in Europe paying more for gas than the U.S.. Here in Ontario it is 1.30/litre for regular unleaded today which works out to slightly under 5 bucks per gallon. 3 days ago it would come to 5.26/gallon. So please my American friends, quit acting like you guys have it worse than most others when you don't.
As for this rumour of the 2011 RL...I say it won't really do anything magical to increase sales especially if the car isn't far more efficient than it is now. I am all for a RWD only option but don't drop SH-AWD because I never again want to own a non-awd car as my daily driver as long as i live where some snow can fall. I think that if a company has to choose what type of drivetrain to throw in they should go AWD and make it like the RL system with the torque vectoring, etc. To me if you have to have 1 style that is the best to please the most since it has great handling for everyone (ie the sunbelt peeps can't bitch) and the peeps with snow have the great system. RWD only "regular cars" are IMO silly. As for the comment that the talk about AWD isn't much outside of here and the Audi forum/owners, that is because the majority of people have had this "I need RWD" crap pounded into their head. If they realized AWD doesn't mean crap performance then they'd probably want that system. Amuses me that 3 of the best handling cars out there (the Audi R8 and Nissan GT-R, Lambo) are AWD so clearly the system is not bad. I have no problem if one wishes to make it a RWD biased system on dry ground/when optimal traction is had. That's cool as long as it handles great in the snow.
About the V8...seems silly to me but hey, I don't jack it daily to having a V8 and all that jazz. I have yet to be in a situation (that I can remember) where my 05 RL's power/acceleration wasn't enough so why do I need/want a V8 other than to try and show off? Silly. But hey, if others do then whatever floats your boat.
I would say if they are going to do those things they actually come out with an auto tranny that doesn't suck and hit a 7 or 8 gear baby. As Mike has stated, the LS460 has better fuel economy than the RL and hell, my parents' LS430 from 01 has around the same or slightly better fuel economy. The RL tranny flat out sucks for this and it amuses me that they could be thinking of only a 6 speed jig for a car 2-3 years away. Then again, with them finally thinking a V8 as an option and RWD when clearly at least one of those is decreasing in demand seems to simply show Honda is slooooooooooooow to get with the program.
If Honda truly wanted to come out with something groundbreaking they would be working on making the next new RL an electric car. I bet it'd sell like hotcakes but hey, stick to the same old lame V8 crap like the rest of the retarded mainstream automakers who seem to not want to innovate the same old tired ass industry.
Right now I'd love to own a Tesla Roadster and I can only hope it is successful and Tesla is able to move forward and produce that electric sedan that is rumoured and it can be a bit more affordable than the roadster is.
As for this rumour of the 2011 RL...I say it won't really do anything magical to increase sales especially if the car isn't far more efficient than it is now. I am all for a RWD only option but don't drop SH-AWD because I never again want to own a non-awd car as my daily driver as long as i live where some snow can fall. I think that if a company has to choose what type of drivetrain to throw in they should go AWD and make it like the RL system with the torque vectoring, etc. To me if you have to have 1 style that is the best to please the most since it has great handling for everyone (ie the sunbelt peeps can't bitch) and the peeps with snow have the great system. RWD only "regular cars" are IMO silly. As for the comment that the talk about AWD isn't much outside of here and the Audi forum/owners, that is because the majority of people have had this "I need RWD" crap pounded into their head. If they realized AWD doesn't mean crap performance then they'd probably want that system. Amuses me that 3 of the best handling cars out there (the Audi R8 and Nissan GT-R, Lambo) are AWD so clearly the system is not bad. I have no problem if one wishes to make it a RWD biased system on dry ground/when optimal traction is had. That's cool as long as it handles great in the snow.
About the V8...seems silly to me but hey, I don't jack it daily to having a V8 and all that jazz. I have yet to be in a situation (that I can remember) where my 05 RL's power/acceleration wasn't enough so why do I need/want a V8 other than to try and show off? Silly. But hey, if others do then whatever floats your boat.
I would say if they are going to do those things they actually come out with an auto tranny that doesn't suck and hit a 7 or 8 gear baby. As Mike has stated, the LS460 has better fuel economy than the RL and hell, my parents' LS430 from 01 has around the same or slightly better fuel economy. The RL tranny flat out sucks for this and it amuses me that they could be thinking of only a 6 speed jig for a car 2-3 years away. Then again, with them finally thinking a V8 as an option and RWD when clearly at least one of those is decreasing in demand seems to simply show Honda is slooooooooooooow to get with the program.
If Honda truly wanted to come out with something groundbreaking they would be working on making the next new RL an electric car. I bet it'd sell like hotcakes but hey, stick to the same old lame V8 crap like the rest of the retarded mainstream automakers who seem to not want to innovate the same old tired ass industry.
Right now I'd love to own a Tesla Roadster and I can only hope it is successful and Tesla is able to move forward and produce that electric sedan that is rumoured and it can be a bit more affordable than the roadster is.
06-12-2008, 09:17 AM
#48
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by dwboston
Slow day at Club Lexus?
If you think that internet forums represent anything close to the mentality of the car-buying public at large, you're even more delusional than you appear to be in your frequent update posts about your precious Lexus. The vast majority of car buyers could give a rat's @ss about V8 engines. That's the domain of forum fanboys and car mag writers.
It may be too late for Acura but they will likely be vindicated in the long run. I agree with Mikey - a small block V8 with better fuel efficiency than the current V6 is the most likely path. A 400hp V8 is ludicrous with gas anywhere near current levels (outside of a low production NSX type car) especially with the impending CAFE regulations.
And for those who think gasoline is outrageously expensive in the rest of the world, think again. It's $8-9/gallon in Europe because of ridiculously high taxes to support their socialist welfare states. In most other parts of the world it's subsidized by the governments to fuel growth. China pays less than half what we do, and most of the countries in the Middle East pay less than $1/gallon.
And Mike, if you think there's too much AWD bias here, feel free to stay over at your beloved Lexus forum and commiserate with the rest of the owners whose Nav systems don't work while the car is moving.
If you think that internet forums represent anything close to the mentality of the car-buying public at large, you're even more delusional than you appear to be in your frequent update posts about your precious Lexus. The vast majority of car buyers could give a rat's @ss about V8 engines. That's the domain of forum fanboys and car mag writers.
It may be too late for Acura but they will likely be vindicated in the long run. I agree with Mikey - a small block V8 with better fuel efficiency than the current V6 is the most likely path. A 400hp V8 is ludicrous with gas anywhere near current levels (outside of a low production NSX type car) especially with the impending CAFE regulations.
And for those who think gasoline is outrageously expensive in the rest of the world, think again. It's $8-9/gallon in Europe because of ridiculously high taxes to support their socialist welfare states. In most other parts of the world it's subsidized by the governments to fuel growth. China pays less than half what we do, and most of the countries in the Middle East pay less than $1/gallon.
And Mike, if you think there's too much AWD bias here, feel free to stay over at your beloved Lexus forum and commiserate with the rest of the owners whose Nav systems don't work while the car is moving.
Hahaha. Somebody's grumpy!
I have no beef with you, Boston, but I think you may be projecting your own preferences onto the automobile-buying public at large when you say no one gives a rat's patoot about V-8's. I respect that YOU don't, but I think you may be incorrect about others.
The $5,000-7,500 premium for the V-8 option at brands like Infiniti and even M-B drives most of the "preference" for a 6. Given the choice - and absent the upcharge - I'll wager a whole lot more folks would opt for the 8 rather than settling for the 6. And of course, a V-8 isn't even a choice in some car brands.
The fact remains that luxury cars have to have luxury amenities to be luxury cars. One of those amenities is a powerful engine, and the American standard is a V-8.
Yeah, Club Lexus is slow ... I'm tired of all the carping over there for a BIGGER V-8!
.
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06-12-2008, 09:33 AM
#49
Wow, this thread has spawned some heated debate, I like it. I will say that I am not as convicted to either side of the argument. Honda/Acura have their own theme, they deliver a well built vehicle with few options, I guess I like that concept because I keep buying Honda/Acura products. Being from Canada and living in the US I think that gas prices will have to get a lot higher before we see a dramatic pitchfork response to the evil V8, especially with the increases in efficiency that can be engineered into it. There is enough money in the developed countries to support extravagant vehicle purchases for some time to come, no matter the cost of gasoline. I agree that as Honda has squeezed more and more performance from their V6, the law of diminishing returns (in automotive terms) has affected their mileage. The efficient V8 now is delivering as good gas mileage with better performance, and I think Acura/Honda knows this. What makes it more difficult for Acura is that they will have to come out of themselves to succeed with a V8 because they will have to now increase their vehicle lineup, they can't just make a V8 RWD, they will have to offer the same car with multiple variations, this goes against the grain for this company. I think we can all agree that the RL in one form has not worked, we will have to rely on the powers at be at Honda/Acura corporate to decide where to go next.
06-12-2008, 10:05 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by Mike_TX
I know you guys are tired of hearing this (or just don't WANT to hear it), but my 380 hp V-8 LS460 gets BETTER mileage than my '06 RL did. So you don't know what the H (to quote dwest) you're talking about when you just automatically assume V-8's get bad mileage! So quit it, already!
My LS routinely gets 18.5 in ALL city street driving, and will quickly jump to 19-20 if I do even a little bit of freeway running. On the open highway, I can do 29 and 30 mpg standing on my head. Often more. I've posted pictures showing that. So quit it!
Now, I've already said 420 hp is excessive, but I'll also say this: If Acura doesn't put a V-8 in the next-gen RL, it might as well give it up for dead right now ... because it will be. Luxury car buyers don't want a freakin' V-6 in their cars. That's all there is to it, and $5 a gallon gas doesn't change that. If you want stellar gas mileage, get a Civic.
Just make your V-8 efficient (like others have done) and install a transmission that will allow higher gearing while still preserving performance at lower speeds (like others have done). It ain't rocket science ... it's being done right now.
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My LS routinely gets 18.5 in ALL city street driving, and will quickly jump to 19-20 if I do even a little bit of freeway running. On the open highway, I can do 29 and 30 mpg standing on my head. Often more. I've posted pictures showing that. So quit it!
Now, I've already said 420 hp is excessive, but I'll also say this: If Acura doesn't put a V-8 in the next-gen RL, it might as well give it up for dead right now ... because it will be. Luxury car buyers don't want a freakin' V-6 in their cars. That's all there is to it, and $5 a gallon gas doesn't change that. If you want stellar gas mileage, get a Civic.
Just make your V-8 efficient (like others have done) and install a transmission that will allow higher gearing while still preserving performance at lower speeds (like others have done). It ain't rocket science ... it's being done right now.
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put AWD on that LS and watch the mpg drop. I think the V6 is sufficient in the RL. AWD does affect mpg great but you get the best traction available for all weather. I bet you cant drive that LS RWD in the snow going uphill
06-12-2008, 10:24 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by Mike_TX
Boston - Some brands may sell only 10% V-8's but I'll guarantee you EVERY Lexus LS sold in the United States since Lexus' inception in 1989 has been a V-8. And they ain't doing too badly with them, either. Lexus sold over 70,000 V-8 units in 2007, of which over half were LS460's. Acura would love to sell 35,000 RL's.
But you made your own point: Acura wants to be a big player like a Lexus or BMW, but it isn't going to be until it steps up and loads a V-8 into its top-of-the-line car like the big boys.
And RWD is hardly the domain of forum fanboys. I daresay AWD fits that description much better. The only people who "whine" for AWD are snowbunnies up north and boy racers who figure they can go faster around corners with it (or at least TELL people they can).
Come on - stick your head up outside of this forum and you won't see a huge a clamor for AWD aside from the Audi groups, and Audi guys are a breed unto themselves anyway. But people aren't exactly complaining about their BMW M's or their AMG M-B's or their Mustang Cobras or Dodge Vipers not being quick enough or good enough because they lack AWD.
SH-AWD is nice in the snowbelt, in the same way a Jeep 4WD is nice ... it helps you keep going in the white stuff. But people outside the upper midwest and northeast generally couldn't care less about it, handling claims or not. Sorry, that's just the truth. Ask any dealer south of the Mason-Dixon. Then ask how many Mercedes Benzes and BMW's and even Infinitis and Lexuses they sell with AWD.
Look, Acura is suffering and it needs to figure out who it is and where it's going. It's going to either be a front-wheel drive, mid-range carmaker with a line of SUV's, or it's going to be in the true luxury car market with the big guys. If it wants to keep cranking out V-6 FWD cars and compete with Honda and Toyota, fine. But if it wants a true luxury-level car, it can't pussyfoot around with a 6-cylinder engine. At least not as its only option. And it can't keep trying to sell people on the notion its AWD is some magic antidote for V-8 power.
I still maintain Acura makes damn fine cars, but if it wants to keep an RL-type car in its lineup, it HAS to have RWD and a V-8 option. And people who want V-6's can either get it as a lower-cost option or just buy an Accord.
Bias? Wow, I think the AWD bias is getting thick in here!
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But you made your own point: Acura wants to be a big player like a Lexus or BMW, but it isn't going to be until it steps up and loads a V-8 into its top-of-the-line car like the big boys.
And RWD is hardly the domain of forum fanboys. I daresay AWD fits that description much better. The only people who "whine" for AWD are snowbunnies up north and boy racers who figure they can go faster around corners with it (or at least TELL people they can).
Come on - stick your head up outside of this forum and you won't see a huge a clamor for AWD aside from the Audi groups, and Audi guys are a breed unto themselves anyway. But people aren't exactly complaining about their BMW M's or their AMG M-B's or their Mustang Cobras or Dodge Vipers not being quick enough or good enough because they lack AWD.
SH-AWD is nice in the snowbelt, in the same way a Jeep 4WD is nice ... it helps you keep going in the white stuff. But people outside the upper midwest and northeast generally couldn't care less about it, handling claims or not. Sorry, that's just the truth. Ask any dealer south of the Mason-Dixon. Then ask how many Mercedes Benzes and BMW's and even Infinitis and Lexuses they sell with AWD.
Look, Acura is suffering and it needs to figure out who it is and where it's going. It's going to either be a front-wheel drive, mid-range carmaker with a line of SUV's, or it's going to be in the true luxury car market with the big guys. If it wants to keep cranking out V-6 FWD cars and compete with Honda and Toyota, fine. But if it wants a true luxury-level car, it can't pussyfoot around with a 6-cylinder engine. At least not as its only option. And it can't keep trying to sell people on the notion its AWD is some magic antidote for V-8 power.
I still maintain Acura makes damn fine cars, but if it wants to keep an RL-type car in its lineup, it HAS to have RWD and a V-8 option. And people who want V-6's can either get it as a lower-cost option or just buy an Accord.
Bias? Wow, I think the AWD bias is getting thick in here!
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06-12-2008, 10:54 AM
#53
AcurAdmirer
Originally Posted by TheOne305
Whats so superior to having a RWD?? I hope your not going to say performance cause i out cornered many people in thier RWD with my EG6 and 04 TL and watched a guy almost wipe when his RWD kicked out on him going around the corner. I think RWD is overrated. I can also link a vid with profressional drivers one in a FWD winning races against the other professional driver and he drove RWD and AWD.
But neither have I found that SH-AWD (in either my RL or my MDX) did anything but maybe sap off a little performance and use more gas. I can see how people in snowy climes like AWD, but less than half the country suffers from excessive snowfall, and only for half the year at that.
Face it - 99.9% of us aren't driving on race tracks, and when some of the less-prudent among us DO drive like idiots, they do it only sporadically (thank God), so the things professional drivers can do on the track don't have any relevance to us in the real driving world.
I agree with zzzDoc this is healthy discussion, and those who don't want to hear anything that challenges their pet beliefs are missing out.
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06-12-2008, 11:20 AM
#54
1. When I took my 3 liter Caddy in for service I got a 320HP STS for a few days. It got better milage than my smaller Catera so a V8 maybe just fine.
2. SHAWD is like an airbag - you may not need it all of the time but when you do, it can save your life.
3. The 3.5 RL engine is not highly tuned - Honda could get over 800 HP from it but drivability, reliability and CAFE are major obstacles.
4. Ferrari only sell to a very small % of the market and their competion is also very small but I don't think that they are going to fold soon because they rely on those few who want one. Acura V8's will be for the chosen few too but big luxury cars are high profit margins so it may just be worth their while to develop one.
5. I agree with the 3.5/3.7 size and I think that the majority will opt for it but my RL would absolutely benefit from another gear and closer ratios.
2. SHAWD is like an airbag - you may not need it all of the time but when you do, it can save your life.
3. The 3.5 RL engine is not highly tuned - Honda could get over 800 HP from it but drivability, reliability and CAFE are major obstacles.
4. Ferrari only sell to a very small % of the market and their competion is also very small but I don't think that they are going to fold soon because they rely on those few who want one. Acura V8's will be for the chosen few too but big luxury cars are high profit margins so it may just be worth their while to develop one.
5. I agree with the 3.5/3.7 size and I think that the majority will opt for it but my RL would absolutely benefit from another gear and closer ratios.
06-12-2008, 11:31 AM
#55
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Originally Posted by Mike_TX
Hahaha. Somebody's grumpy!
I have no beef with you, Boston, but I think you may be projecting your own preferences onto the automobile-buying public at large when you say no one gives a rat's patoot about V-8's. I respect that YOU don't, but I think you may be incorrect about others.
The $5,000-7,500 premium for the V-8 option at brands like Infiniti and even M-B drives most of the "preference" for a 6. Given the choice - and absent the upcharge - I'll wager a whole lot more folks would opt for the 8 rather than settling for the 6. And of course, a V-8 isn't even a choice in some car brands.
The fact remains that luxury cars have to have luxury amenities to be luxury cars. One of those amenities is a powerful engine, and the American standard is a V-8.
Yeah, Club Lexus is slow ... I'm tired of all the carping over there for a BIGGER V-8!
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I have no beef with you, Boston, but I think you may be projecting your own preferences onto the automobile-buying public at large when you say no one gives a rat's patoot about V-8's. I respect that YOU don't, but I think you may be incorrect about others.
The $5,000-7,500 premium for the V-8 option at brands like Infiniti and even M-B drives most of the "preference" for a 6. Given the choice - and absent the upcharge - I'll wager a whole lot more folks would opt for the 8 rather than settling for the 6. And of course, a V-8 isn't even a choice in some car brands.
The fact remains that luxury cars have to have luxury amenities to be luxury cars. One of those amenities is a powerful engine, and the American standard is a V-8.
Yeah, Club Lexus is slow ... I'm tired of all the carping over there for a BIGGER V-8!
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In all the discussion here regarding V8s vs 6s (inline or V) not a single post has even suggested what REAL tangible benefit (other than 2 extra cylinders) a V8 provides over 6 cylinders. Other than the intangible of "prestige", a V8 in the displacement sizes now current in most autos is, from a pure engineering standpoint, LESS efficient than a well engieered 6 -- it has higher internal frictional losses and higher pumping losses under most normal operating conditions, other than wide-open throttle. (BMW, alone, is the only company with a V8 that overcomes the pumping losses with their Valvetronic system, which operates the engine "unthrottled" through a very complex mechanical valve lift actuation system -- that makes V-Tech look like the heighth of simplicity by comparison).
Only when total cylinder displacement exceeds around 5 Litres does 8 cylinders begin to provide beneficial gains in output for the losses previously mentioned. Which is why the 5, 6, and 7 Litre engines in trucks, SUVs and Corvettes are all V8s.
From a pure engineering standpoint an inline 6 is the strongest and most perfectly inherently balanced engine cylinder arrangement. The 60 degree V6 is not quite as good (because of the needed crank pin offset for proper balance), but offers important packaging benefits -- its sole advantage. BMW inline 6s are still the paradgym for smooth, turbine like performance -- they're still the benchmark engine of most Bimmers, despite they're offering a V8 and a V12. Only marketing and the perception of the V engine's "luxury prestige" dictates it being offered -- and BMW stuck with inline 6s for a long time before offering the V8.
The "mystique" of the V8 is mostly all in the minds of luxury car buyers, most of whom would be just as well served by a Ford or a Chevy for all the appreciation they have of fine, high-tech engineering. This type of irrational choice will go on as long as there are cars. It's a form of automotive Gresham's Law -- the efficient, well engineered product being driven off the market by the flash and glitter of maketing hype and lack of real engineering sophistication on the part of higher end car buyers.
Honda/Acura is at base an engineering driven company -- only time will tell if this approach can maintain a presence in today's market. However, when it comes to really delivering high fuel efficiency there are few companies that can match them when it comes to engine design.
Finally, as an aside on the premium charged for a V8 over a 6 -- this is a result of CAFE requirements rather than actual additional manufactured cost. A manufaturer's fleet must average 27 MPG under current CAFE. The poorer fuel ecnomy of V8's hurts a company's average, so they now use price (much higher than their mfg. cost) to control the product mix or, in other words, limit the number of V8s sold so their overall fleet average equals 27. Actual manufacturing cost of a V8 over a V6 is only a relatively small amount -- the premium is the result of government regulation.
06-12-2008, 12:13 PM
#56
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So why a V8??? Out of all the engine setups they could do why only a V8? I would rather they FI not change the engine. Its been proven over and over again that you dont need a V8 to make power.
06-12-2008, 01:49 PM
#57
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by Chas2
Well, if Hyundai can do a V8 FR luxury sedan for 2009, Acura needs to do something just to keep up with the Joneses, or the Koreans in this case.
The unfortunate thing is, not many will buy the much more expensive package, but it will still cost everyone more since it will raise the cost of the model series. That's the only thing I selfishly always struggle with. The larger engine options are nice for the ego, but they do me no benefit since I"ll probably be with the majority buying the more sensible smaller engine. I'm not being cheap, it's just all I really need.
06-12-2008, 02:13 PM
#58
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Buying a luxury car isn't a logical decision hence you are missing something.
Originally Posted by Jackzilla
The "so called preference" that luxury car buyers have for V8s is largly driven by the same irrational beliefs that drove the mass public's preference's for "trucks" in the guise of SUVs. ("SPORT" Utility Vehicle -- a contradictory descriptive term if ever there was one).
In all the discussion here regarding V8s vs 6s (inline or V) not a single post has even suggested what REAL tangible benefit (other than 2 extra cylinders) a V8 provides over 6 cylinders. Other than the intangible of "prestige", a V8 in the displacement sizes now current in most autos is, from a pure engineering standpoint, LESS efficient than a well engieered 6 -- it has higher internal frictional losses and higher pumping losses under most normal operating conditions, other than wide-open throttle. (BMW, alone, is the only company with a V8 that overcomes the pumping losses with their Valvetronic system, which operates the engine "unthrottled" through a very complex mechanical valve lift actuation system -- that makes V-Tech look like the heighth of simplicity by comparison).
Only when total cylinder displacement exceeds around 5 Litres does 8 cylinders begin to provide beneficial gains in output for the losses previously mentioned. Which is why the 5, 6, and 7 Litre engines in trucks, SUVs and Corvettes are all V8s.
From a pure engineering standpoint an inline 6 is the strongest and most perfectly inherently balanced engine cylinder arrangement. The 60 degree V6 is not quite as good (because of the needed crank pin offset for proper balance), but offers important packaging benefits -- its sole advantage. BMW inline 6s are still the paradgym for smooth, turbine like performance -- they're still the benchmark engine of most Bimmers, despite they're offering a V8 and a V12. Only marketing and the perception of the V engine's "luxury prestige" dictates it being offered -- and BMW stuck with inline 6s for a long time before offering the V8.
The "mystique" of the V8 is mostly all in the minds of luxury car buyers, most of whom would be just as well served by a Ford or a Chevy for all the appreciation they have of fine, high-tech engineering. This type of irrational choice will go on as long as there are cars. It's a form of automotive Gresham's Law -- the efficient, well engineered product being driven off the market by the flash and glitter of maketing hype and lack of real engineering sophistication on the part of higher end car buyers.
Honda/Acura is at base an engineering driven company -- only time will tell if this approach can maintain a presence in today's market. However, when it comes to really delivering high fuel efficiency there are few companies that can match them when it comes to engine design.
Finally, as an aside on the premium charged for a V8 over a 6 -- this is a result of CAFE requirements rather than actual additional manufactured cost. A manufaturer's fleet must average 27 MPG under current CAFE. The poorer fuel ecnomy of V8's hurts a company's average, so they now use price (much higher than their mfg. cost) to control the product mix or, in other words, limit the number of V8s sold so their overall fleet average equals 27. Actual manufacturing cost of a V8 over a V6 is only a relatively small amount -- the premium is the result of government regulation.
In all the discussion here regarding V8s vs 6s (inline or V) not a single post has even suggested what REAL tangible benefit (other than 2 extra cylinders) a V8 provides over 6 cylinders. Other than the intangible of "prestige", a V8 in the displacement sizes now current in most autos is, from a pure engineering standpoint, LESS efficient than a well engieered 6 -- it has higher internal frictional losses and higher pumping losses under most normal operating conditions, other than wide-open throttle. (BMW, alone, is the only company with a V8 that overcomes the pumping losses with their Valvetronic system, which operates the engine "unthrottled" through a very complex mechanical valve lift actuation system -- that makes V-Tech look like the heighth of simplicity by comparison).
Only when total cylinder displacement exceeds around 5 Litres does 8 cylinders begin to provide beneficial gains in output for the losses previously mentioned. Which is why the 5, 6, and 7 Litre engines in trucks, SUVs and Corvettes are all V8s.
From a pure engineering standpoint an inline 6 is the strongest and most perfectly inherently balanced engine cylinder arrangement. The 60 degree V6 is not quite as good (because of the needed crank pin offset for proper balance), but offers important packaging benefits -- its sole advantage. BMW inline 6s are still the paradgym for smooth, turbine like performance -- they're still the benchmark engine of most Bimmers, despite they're offering a V8 and a V12. Only marketing and the perception of the V engine's "luxury prestige" dictates it being offered -- and BMW stuck with inline 6s for a long time before offering the V8.
The "mystique" of the V8 is mostly all in the minds of luxury car buyers, most of whom would be just as well served by a Ford or a Chevy for all the appreciation they have of fine, high-tech engineering. This type of irrational choice will go on as long as there are cars. It's a form of automotive Gresham's Law -- the efficient, well engineered product being driven off the market by the flash and glitter of maketing hype and lack of real engineering sophistication on the part of higher end car buyers.
Honda/Acura is at base an engineering driven company -- only time will tell if this approach can maintain a presence in today's market. However, when it comes to really delivering high fuel efficiency there are few companies that can match them when it comes to engine design.
Finally, as an aside on the premium charged for a V8 over a 6 -- this is a result of CAFE requirements rather than actual additional manufactured cost. A manufaturer's fleet must average 27 MPG under current CAFE. The poorer fuel ecnomy of V8's hurts a company's average, so they now use price (much higher than their mfg. cost) to control the product mix or, in other words, limit the number of V8s sold so their overall fleet average equals 27. Actual manufacturing cost of a V8 over a V6 is only a relatively small amount -- the premium is the result of government regulation.
06-12-2008, 02:31 PM
#59
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by CL6
Buying a luxury car isn't a logical decision hence you are missing something.
06-12-2008, 04:07 PM
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The choice to 'pamper yourself with some luxury' is emotional itself, humans are largely not logical and therefore don't make logical decisions mostly. Maybe a few use Excel to figure out their next car but I'd say they're few and far between. I didn't mean 'I'm buying a luxury car let's get 6,000 HP in our next sedan.'
That's what Honda has never understood about the luxury market... it's not just about HFL and SH-AWD and ULEV it's about 'passion' and 'image' and 'aspirations' and other stuff. Lexus mastered it in short order, Mercedes-Benz has had it forever and BMW did it in the 80s. Infiniti and Acura have not done it.
That's what Honda has never understood about the luxury market... it's not just about HFL and SH-AWD and ULEV it's about 'passion' and 'image' and 'aspirations' and other stuff. Lexus mastered it in short order, Mercedes-Benz has had it forever and BMW did it in the 80s. Infiniti and Acura have not done it.
Originally Posted by SpicyMikey
Everyone's decision is based on logic. It's just the inputs to that equation that vary. Fact is, when most people input their requirements, the answer doesn't come out with "450hp sedan". Having money in your pocket to pamper yourself with some luxury doesn't mean you're being illogical IMO
06-12-2008, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CL6
Buying a luxury car isn't a logical decision hence you are missing something.
Many posters here (not all by any means)wring their hands over a myriad of shortcomings and supposed solutions to making the RL a bigger (huge??) success in the market place. Yet, just as you point out, it really boils down to an emotional sense that "their" choice of auto doesn't seem to receive the recognition (street 'cred') they seem to feel it should -- and by extension recognition of them as sophistocated, discerning car owners.
A prime example is number of comments posted that the RL "just doesn't" convey the physical appearance of a $50K car. Not one person could accuractely describe what a $50K car should look like, but every single one would tell you they'd know it when they see it. Now, is that logic or is it emotion?
The logic of most luxury car buyers is "hey look at me! I'm driving a $***K car so you can bet I'm a really (smart, sophisticated, urbane, rich, etc.) guy or gal -- take your pick.
Whether the RL makes sense is strictly a function of how secure an indivicual one is in choosing the car he or she drives. The RL IS NOT a car that flamboyantly flaunts its cost or even the very high technical content that it contains. For those who know what it is and can appreciate the very high level of engineering sophistocation it incorporates that should be satisfaction enough. For the less secure, the RL isn't going to cut it.
Personnally, I don't care that the car doesn't look like 50 grand. It packs a fantastic technological value in a package that just plain reliably performs its function without fuss or temprement. The same cannot be said about a lot of cars costing many times the price of an RL. I enjoy it for what it is -- because there probably won't be many more cars like it in the future.
06-12-2008, 04:34 PM
#62
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by CL6
The choice to 'pamper yourself with some luxury' is emotional itself, humans are largely not logical and therefore don't make logical decisions mostly. Maybe a few use Excel to figure out their next car but I'd say they're few and far between. I didn't mean 'I'm buying a luxury car let's get 6,000 HP in our next sedan.'
That's what Honda has never understood about the luxury market... it's not just about HFL and SH-AWD and ULEV it's about 'passion' and 'image' and 'aspirations' and other stuff. Lexus mastered it in short order, Mercedes-Benz has had it forever and BMW did it in the 80s. Infiniti and Acura have not done it.
That's what Honda has never understood about the luxury market... it's not just about HFL and SH-AWD and ULEV it's about 'passion' and 'image' and 'aspirations' and other stuff. Lexus mastered it in short order, Mercedes-Benz has had it forever and BMW did it in the 80s. Infiniti and Acura have not done it.
06-12-2008, 04:48 PM
#63
Originally Posted by Jackzilla
I have to disagree. From the point of view of the buyer (the one making the decision) IT IS logical. It's just that the premises on which they base their logic are not really logical. Choices made on the basis of emotion are not logical.
Many posters here (not all by any means)wring their hands over a myriad of shortcomings and supposed solutions to making the RL a bigger (huge??) success in the market place. Yet, just as you point out, it really boils down to an emotional sense that "their" choice of auto doesn't seem to receive the recognition (street 'cred') they seem to feel it should -- and by extension recognition of them as sophistocated, discerning car owners.
A prime example is number of comments posted that the RL "just doesn't" convey the physical appearance of a $50K car. Not one person could accuractely describe what a $50K car should look like, but every single one would tell you they'd know it when they see it. Now, is that logic or is it emotion?
The logic of most luxury car buyers is "hey look at me! I'm driving a $***K car so you can bet I'm a really (smart, sophisticated, urbane, rich, etc.) guy or gal -- take your pick.
Whether the RL makes sense is strictly a function of how secure an indivicual one is in choosing the car he or she drives. The RL IS NOT a car that flamboyantly flaunts its cost or even the very high technical content that it contains. For those who know what it is and can appreciate the very high level of engineering sophistocation it incorporates that should be satisfaction enough. For the less secure, the RL isn't going to cut it.
Personnally, I don't care that the car doesn't look like 50 grand. It packs a fantastic technological value in a package that just plain reliably performs its function without fuss or temprement. The same cannot be said about a lot of cars costing many times the price of an RL. I enjoy it for what it is -- because there probably won't be many more cars like it in the future.
Many posters here (not all by any means)wring their hands over a myriad of shortcomings and supposed solutions to making the RL a bigger (huge??) success in the market place. Yet, just as you point out, it really boils down to an emotional sense that "their" choice of auto doesn't seem to receive the recognition (street 'cred') they seem to feel it should -- and by extension recognition of them as sophistocated, discerning car owners.
A prime example is number of comments posted that the RL "just doesn't" convey the physical appearance of a $50K car. Not one person could accuractely describe what a $50K car should look like, but every single one would tell you they'd know it when they see it. Now, is that logic or is it emotion?
The logic of most luxury car buyers is "hey look at me! I'm driving a $***K car so you can bet I'm a really (smart, sophisticated, urbane, rich, etc.) guy or gal -- take your pick.
Whether the RL makes sense is strictly a function of how secure an indivicual one is in choosing the car he or she drives. The RL IS NOT a car that flamboyantly flaunts its cost or even the very high technical content that it contains. For those who know what it is and can appreciate the very high level of engineering sophistocation it incorporates that should be satisfaction enough. For the less secure, the RL isn't going to cut it.
Personnally, I don't care that the car doesn't look like 50 grand. It packs a fantastic technological value in a package that just plain reliably performs its function without fuss or temprement. The same cannot be said about a lot of cars costing many times the price of an RL. I enjoy it for what it is -- because there probably won't be many more cars like it in the future.
06-12-2008, 04:52 PM
#64
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If you really don't care whether a car looks like it's 50 grand then I assume you'll be looking at the new Hyundai Genesis. Of course people care how their car looks. Nobody wants to drive an expensive car that looks like it's an Accord. When you can lease a BMW 5 Series for less than an RL I don't think the whole security thing comes into play, either I think it's about nameplate and price. I do agree with you about the status thing and the Acura nameplate but when you're in the 'luxury' car market it is, by definition, about the nameplate (among other things).
I think the RL is a car you have to take a step back and say to yourself: "I can live without X, Y, and Z" because it does other things not associated with the reputation very well.
I think you're right... the RL will not exist again after it gets churned thru the Honda mill. Same for the NSX and the CL.
I think the RL is a car you have to take a step back and say to yourself: "I can live without X, Y, and Z" because it does other things not associated with the reputation very well.
I think you're right... the RL will not exist again after it gets churned thru the Honda mill. Same for the NSX and the CL.
Originally Posted by Jackzilla
I have to disagree. From the point of view of the buyer (the one making the decision) IT IS logical. It's just that the premises on which they base their logic are not really logical. Choices made on the basis of emotion are not logical.
Many posters here (not all by any means)wring their hands over a myriad of shortcomings and supposed solutions to making the RL a bigger (huge??) success in the market place. Yet, just as you point out, it really boils down to an emotional sense that "their" choice of auto doesn't seem to receive the recognition (street 'cred') they seem to feel it should -- and by extension recognition of them as sophistocated, discerning car owners.
A prime example is number of comments posted that the RL "just doesn't" convey the physical appearance of a $50K car. Not one person could accuractely describe what a $50K car should look like, but every single one would tell you they'd know it when they see it. Now, is that logic or is it emotion?
The logic of most luxury car buyers is "hey look at me! I'm driving a $***K car so you can bet I'm a really (smart, sophisticated, urbane, rich, etc.) guy or gal -- take your pick.
Whether the RL makes sense is strictly a function of how secure an indivicual one is in choosing the car he or she drives. The RL IS NOT a car that flamboyantly flaunts its cost or even the very high technical content that it contains. For those who know what it is and can appreciate the very high level of engineering sophistocation it incorporates that should be satisfaction enough. For the less secure, the RL isn't going to cut it.
Personnally, I don't care that the car doesn't look like 50 grand. It packs a fantastic technological value in a package that just plain reliably performs its function without fuss or temprement. The same cannot be said about a lot of cars costing many times the price of an RL. I enjoy it for what it is -- because there probably won't be many more cars like it in the future.
Many posters here (not all by any means)wring their hands over a myriad of shortcomings and supposed solutions to making the RL a bigger (huge??) success in the market place. Yet, just as you point out, it really boils down to an emotional sense that "their" choice of auto doesn't seem to receive the recognition (street 'cred') they seem to feel it should -- and by extension recognition of them as sophistocated, discerning car owners.
A prime example is number of comments posted that the RL "just doesn't" convey the physical appearance of a $50K car. Not one person could accuractely describe what a $50K car should look like, but every single one would tell you they'd know it when they see it. Now, is that logic or is it emotion?
The logic of most luxury car buyers is "hey look at me! I'm driving a $***K car so you can bet I'm a really (smart, sophisticated, urbane, rich, etc.) guy or gal -- take your pick.
Whether the RL makes sense is strictly a function of how secure an indivicual one is in choosing the car he or she drives. The RL IS NOT a car that flamboyantly flaunts its cost or even the very high technical content that it contains. For those who know what it is and can appreciate the very high level of engineering sophistocation it incorporates that should be satisfaction enough. For the less secure, the RL isn't going to cut it.
Personnally, I don't care that the car doesn't look like 50 grand. It packs a fantastic technological value in a package that just plain reliably performs its function without fuss or temprement. The same cannot be said about a lot of cars costing many times the price of an RL. I enjoy it for what it is -- because there probably won't be many more cars like it in the future.
06-12-2008, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CL6
If you really don't care whether a car looks like it's 50 grand then I assume you'll be looking at the new Hyundai Genesis. Of course people care how their car looks. Nobody wants to drive an expensive car that looks like it's an Accord. When you can lease a BMW 5 Series for less than an RL I don't think the whole security thing comes into play, either I think it's about nameplate and price. I do agree with you about the status thing and the Acura nameplate but when you're in the 'luxury' car market it is, by definition, about the nameplate (among other things).
I think the RL is a car you have to take a step back and say to yourself: "I can live without X, Y, and Z" because it does other things not associated with the reputation very well.
I think you're right... the RL will not exist again after it gets churned thru the Honda mill. Same for the NSX and the CL.
I think the RL is a car you have to take a step back and say to yourself: "I can live without X, Y, and Z" because it does other things not associated with the reputation very well.
I think you're right... the RL will not exist again after it gets churned thru the Honda mill. Same for the NSX and the CL.
When looked at closely, and if one knows what they're looking at, the execution of detail in the RL fully reflects that of a $50K automobile. Such details are subtle to be sure but many of them are only present on other marques that cost many times the price of the RL.
If the Hyundai Genesis is executed with a fraction of the RL's attention to detail it will be an absolute bargain for the rumored $42K for the top of the line model. If Hyundai attempts to follow the Lexus business model (and even manages to bring it off) the Genesis will be a runaway success. Problem is that unlike Lexus they're not setting up a new channel of distribution -- most Hyundai dealerships are not the kind to know how to treat high-end car buyers. And, NO, I'm not thinking of buying one, though I'll certainly want to take a look.
06-12-2008, 06:41 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by Jackzilla
When looked at closely, and if one knows what they're looking at, the execution of detail in the RL fully reflects that of a $50K automobile. Such details are subtle to be sure but many of them are only present on other marques that cost many times the price of the RL.
I do not think most buyers seeking prestige look at this level of detail. Even many of us who own RLs did not capture the detail this car has at first look. VERY few presitige vehicles that I look at closely in the RL price bracket and even substantially higher deliver the detail of the RL.
I think people who buy on prestige look for badges, flash and attention from afar. The RL is somewhat the antithesis of that. The refinement it offers is more intimate. I fall into the latter....and the minority. And as impressed with the Genesis packaging I am, the styling just lacks the sophistication I seek. I would also expect the execution to be obviously sub RL if not still a great value.
I wanted a car that when the initial fashion statement dissipated the substance of the car would continue my love for this car. It has. This car has all but purged my desire to buy a car based on what OTHER peopel think, say, write or buy.
I have an associate who gripes about his BMW 535xi. He bought the car on pestige,,,and gets plenty of recognition for it, but openly confesses he likes my RL more for the details. He likes the interior, the integration of technology, the smoothness and refinement. Every lunch drive he'll point out something of my RL and say..."they really thought about this". I smile, and remind him what good deals are around for the RL if he wants to join a truly exclusive club.
I think Honda is an engineering company. The products reflect that. Acura is trying to be a brand with prestige and just cannot figure out how to make something built extremely well fashionable. What I am seeing is a juvenile attempt by Acura to make a substantially well engineered vehicle fashionable with a styling rewrite. If Acura is cannot find its way to making Honda engineering fashionable, it will never have prestige in the values of today's society. It is simpy substance over image. Image sees to win with the masses.
I personally think these rumors for the 2011, if true, are way over the top for anything I would expect from Honda. I think Acura is trying to create buzz and drama with design shock (oh yeah, we've seen the sucess in that), and now over the top attributes for a sedan. A halo car, sure. An NSX, absolutely. A smartly engineered flagship sedan...nah. BUT, if they were to come into reality (will Acura throw a temper tantrum if they don't get this even lower volume model?) I would respect it for the engineering that came from Honda no matter how flashy Acura tries to make it.
Unless of course they continue with the current styling trend.
06-12-2008, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SpicyMikey
This is true. I have to agree with your latest post.
I'll have to agree also with CL6, IF car buying was based on logic then Ferrari, Lambo, Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, and other makes along this line would have been out of business. It's because car buying involves emotion as a factor that BMW and Mercedes exists. This is also why Honda, Nissan, and Toyota had to make Acura (In theory), Infiniti, and Lexus...
Within this concept, makes have to further appeal to one's desires (emotional and logical) and they mainly do this with engine choices.
Who needs an S600?
Would you rather have an S600 over a S550?
Porsche understands this when their CEO said this after introducing the new 911, "No one needs a 911"
06-12-2008, 10:12 PM
#68
Proboscis-free zone
Originally Posted by SpicyMikey
That's the point. sub 20mpg cars are not going to be good enough going forward. MPG needs to get MUCH higher, not stay the same or go down. Government regulations and/or market forces will ensure that. Acura is not Lamborghini. They won't say "to hell with CAFE" and pay the fine. Also, people driving a $40-$50k Acura's (or MB or BMW) are just regular working class shmucks who happen to have a few extra bucks in their pocket compared to the average guy. I think $5-6 per gallon gas WILL matter to their customer base.
Just saying that I won't be surprised if we see some changes in the strategy between now and 2011.
EDIT: I'm not picking on V8's alone. I'm talking about general MPG. I DO realize some v8's get just as good (if not better) gas mileage than my 3.5 v6. So you don't need to keep reminding us Mike
Just saying that I won't be surprised if we see some changes in the strategy between now and 2011.
EDIT: I'm not picking on V8's alone. I'm talking about general MPG. I DO realize some v8's get just as good (if not better) gas mileage than my 3.5 v6. So you don't need to keep reminding us Mike
Moving on from a 2004 TL, I did think about a Prius with those nifty carpool lane stickers for about a nanosecond before opting for the comfort, safety, killer technology and classic styling of the 2006 RL. I did not consider any V8s. Not ever. The RL hit my economic sweet spot just about perfectly. The big surprise for me was how great SH-AWD performs, even on dry California highways.
So...when I'm ready for my next car in 2011 or so, a V8 RWD RL it will not be. A restyled SH-AWD TL that gets 25+ mpg?? Maybe....if it's made in Japan.
06-13-2008, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike_TX
It's not that RWD is superior in all circumstances. But neither is AWD inherently superior. They both have their place. That's why many of us feel AWD should be an option on the RL, just as we feel a V-8 should be an option.
But neither have I found that SH-AWD (in either my RL or my MDX) did anything but maybe sap off a little performance and use more gas. I can see how people in snowy climes like AWD, but less than half the country suffers from excessive snowfall, and only for half the year at that.
Face it - 99.9% of us aren't driving on race tracks, and when some of the less-prudent among us DO drive like idiots, they do it only sporadically (thank God), so the things professional drivers can do on the track don't have any relevance to us in the real driving world.
I agree with zzzDoc this is healthy discussion, and those who don't want to hear anything that challenges their pet beliefs are missing out.
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But neither have I found that SH-AWD (in either my RL or my MDX) did anything but maybe sap off a little performance and use more gas. I can see how people in snowy climes like AWD, but less than half the country suffers from excessive snowfall, and only for half the year at that.
Face it - 99.9% of us aren't driving on race tracks, and when some of the less-prudent among us DO drive like idiots, they do it only sporadically (thank God), so the things professional drivers can do on the track don't have any relevance to us in the real driving world.
I agree with zzzDoc this is healthy discussion, and those who don't want to hear anything that challenges their pet beliefs are missing out.
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So what you say? Well like it or not, it is those same journalists who set the agenda for what is in, and what is not. Do you believe Honda could have it's current cache' among the general and enthusiast public were it not for the good press it has generally recieved over the past 3 decades?
But back to the SH-AWD issue, it's real world benefits to you are the added safety it gives you when YOU are driving. You may not need it often, hopefully you will never need the extra safety margin, but it is there.
The RL missed the target only marginally, hopefully the next one will hit the bulls-eye. Just hope they sell them here in Australia
06-13-2008, 06:41 AM
#71
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The PRIMARY reason I bought an RL was because it had AWD and NOT a V-8. I was originally going to get an RDX, but my G/F ended up with one, and the salesman gave me a "can't turn down" deal on an on the lot 2006.
Personally, I think the RL is the perfect combo of lux, performance and technology, and a BARGAIN at the price they are going for.
Personally, I think the RL is the perfect combo of lux, performance and technology, and a BARGAIN at the price they are going for.
06-13-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by TampaRL
I
I think Honda is an engineering company. The products reflect that. Acura is trying to be a brand with prestige and just cannot figure out how to make something built extremely well fashionable. What I am seeing is a juvenile attempt by Acura to make a substantially well engineered vehicle fashionable with a styling rewrite. If Acura is cannot find its way to making Honda engineering fashionable, it will never have prestige in the values of today's society. It is simpy substance over image. Image sees to win with the masses.
I think Honda is an engineering company. The products reflect that. Acura is trying to be a brand with prestige and just cannot figure out how to make something built extremely well fashionable. What I am seeing is a juvenile attempt by Acura to make a substantially well engineered vehicle fashionable with a styling rewrite. If Acura is cannot find its way to making Honda engineering fashionable, it will never have prestige in the values of today's society. It is simpy substance over image. Image sees to win with the masses.
No vehicle that Honda/Acura has built has better illustrated this than the NSX. Like the RL, the NSX was, whan first sold, the cutting edge of exotic car technology. The quality and execution were superb -- all for a price that was an embarrassment to what other exotic makers were then asking. Couple this with untempremantal reliability that you could drive like everyday transportation and it was everything auto writers "claimed" an exotic shoud be. NOT!
Even though completely stock examples were fully competitive on the race track (beating even, several times, some vaunted "prestiege" exotics) the cogniscenti of the auto press complained the car lacked "soul and character" (whatever these are). A few even claimed, if I recall correctly, that the interior controls, while excellent ergonomically, remided them TOO MUCH of similar Honda products, such as the Accord.
The fact that the NSX never achieved the success or recognition that it surely warranted is well known. But in the auto marketplace NSX values remain consistently high as a percentage of what the car originally cost.
I haven't really checked what those contemporary cars it was compared to are going for today, but I'm guessing it's a lot less than the NSX's retained value.
06-13-2008, 07:09 PM
#73
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by Jackzilla
The "so called preference" that luxury car buyers have for V8s is largly driven by the same irrational beliefs that drove the mass public's preference's for "trucks" in the guise of SUVs. ("SPORT" Utility Vehicle -- a contradictory descriptive term if ever there was one).
Great point.
This supports the argument that Acura needs a V8 to compete well enough to be considered "Tier 1". People like me who can afford Tier 1 marques make their decision based purely on emotion.
I still think the RL does need a V8. I think that Honda's V8 will be (as all its engines are) bulletproof and fuel efficient. Hopefully, this one won't need VTEC for more power, all at higher rpms. I say this, being a Honda fanboi and VTEC-a-holic (try 9k rpm on an S2K someday and you'll see what I mean.
).
06-13-2008, 07:11 PM
#74
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The NSX sold a few thousand copies its first year and sold for over MSRP. That's pretty amazing considering in 1991 the NSX was sold next to an Integra and a Legend and Acura was only 5 years old. It sold rather well for several years until it got stale. The problem with the NSX was that Honda never really changed it (doing a Targa top, going from 3.0 to 3.2, 5 to 6 speeds, and adding frog headlights ain't much) and the car continued like that for 14 years. The Type R was never offered in the States and Mr. Honda died and so did much of the force behind the development behind the NSX.
So, I disagree. I'd have to say with all that was going against the NSX the car did damn well for itself.
We can put down 'the masses' but fact is brands like Rolex and Mercedes mean something for more than just because some snobby people like them.
So, I disagree. I'd have to say with all that was going against the NSX the car did damn well for itself.
We can put down 'the masses' but fact is brands like Rolex and Mercedes mean something for more than just because some snobby people like them.
06-14-2008, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CL6
We can put down 'the masses' but fact is brands like Rolex and Mercedes mean something for more than just because some snobby people like them.
A $6000 Rolex does not keep time any more accurately than a $200 Seiko, but for the Rolex buyer accurate time keeping is strictly secondary.
06-14-2008, 02:11 PM
#77
Originally Posted by TL1999
looks like a super size 09 TSX
Acura used the old Accord for hiding the news TSX, the S2000 for the NSX, and the current TSX for the RL...
06-14-2008, 05:42 PM
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i dont know why people are so against the OPTION of a v8. first i do not think that acura would get rid of a v6 option for the car anyways for the people who still want the car but not without the v8.
another reason why acura will be doing something to make the RL's engine stronger (hopefully and most likely a v8) is that the new TL will have two engine options. if the current 3.5 that is in it and then the next is the 2009 RL engine with 300hp. the TL having the RL engine will steal even more sales from the RL.
The bar rises through the year. Now a larger luxury sedan needs at least a 6 speed and an optional v8. All the competition has it. the RL doesnt. Even Hyundai developed a v8 for the consumer, and well i find it just wrong that Hyundai beat Acura to the v8.
Next, I hate to say it, but it is true, Acura has been left behind by their competitors, mainly Infiniti. Infiniti has become a world brand, it is aggressively advertising and promoting itself as the new BMW. For those of you that do not agree with Acura falling behind Infiniti, look at the cars that are coming out from infiniti. There is absolutely no way that Infiniti could have come remotely close to matching performance/credibility of a BMW without the V8.
2 examples:
M45s and FX50s. Both are extremely fast and have alot of technology and comfort to rival the Germans. The new FX is a good competitor to the X6 and the M is a good competitor to the 5 series.
I'm sorry to say it, but Acura needs to really wow the public with a 6/7 speed tranny and v8 or else the company will lose credibility.
Worried about fuel efficiency? Then dont get the car. Or if you look at the M35 vs. the M45, the cars get identical mileage in the city with the M35 getting slightly better than the M45 on the highway. This is not a toyota prius or a little 4 cylinder car, this is a luxury performance sedan that is relatively large.
I'm not an infiniti fanboy or a german fanboy. I have my acura, love my acura and my whole family owns acuras. I dont want the brand to fall behind. Acura does have its own little niche to a certain degree, but that niche is becoming smaller and smaller. A v8 in the new RL with better styling (than the next RL) will make a strong statement that the company needs.
another reason why acura will be doing something to make the RL's engine stronger (hopefully and most likely a v8) is that the new TL will have two engine options. if the current 3.5 that is in it and then the next is the 2009 RL engine with 300hp. the TL having the RL engine will steal even more sales from the RL.
The bar rises through the year. Now a larger luxury sedan needs at least a 6 speed and an optional v8. All the competition has it. the RL doesnt. Even Hyundai developed a v8 for the consumer, and well i find it just wrong that Hyundai beat Acura to the v8.
Next, I hate to say it, but it is true, Acura has been left behind by their competitors, mainly Infiniti. Infiniti has become a world brand, it is aggressively advertising and promoting itself as the new BMW. For those of you that do not agree with Acura falling behind Infiniti, look at the cars that are coming out from infiniti. There is absolutely no way that Infiniti could have come remotely close to matching performance/credibility of a BMW without the V8.
2 examples:
M45s and FX50s. Both are extremely fast and have alot of technology and comfort to rival the Germans. The new FX is a good competitor to the X6 and the M is a good competitor to the 5 series.
I'm sorry to say it, but Acura needs to really wow the public with a 6/7 speed tranny and v8 or else the company will lose credibility.
Worried about fuel efficiency? Then dont get the car. Or if you look at the M35 vs. the M45, the cars get identical mileage in the city with the M35 getting slightly better than the M45 on the highway. This is not a toyota prius or a little 4 cylinder car, this is a luxury performance sedan that is relatively large.
I'm not an infiniti fanboy or a german fanboy. I have my acura, love my acura and my whole family owns acuras. I dont want the brand to fall behind. Acura does have its own little niche to a certain degree, but that niche is becoming smaller and smaller. A v8 in the new RL with better styling (than the next RL) will make a strong statement that the company needs.
06-14-2008, 07:14 PM
#79
Burning Brakes
06-14-2008, 07:20 PM
#80
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
That sure looks like the 2009MY to me.
(Edit: There was a post here referencing Autospies with a pic they were claiming to be a 2010MY RL....it mut hav been deleted just as I posted my above comment).
This was the posted link:
http://www.autospies.com/news/2010-M...he-wild-31085/
(Edit: There was a post here referencing Autospies with a pic they were claiming to be a 2010MY RL....it mut hav been deleted just as I posted my above comment).
This was the posted link:
http://www.autospies.com/news/2010-M...he-wild-31085/