Tully44

Hi all,

I thought I'd share my limited experiences with my Lexus GS350 (sold the RL for the GS350).

Specifically, I want to address the features of SH-AWD vs the RWD of the GS350 (w/ 18" summer tires). I only have 750 miles on the Lexus and my comparison of both cars involve spirited driving along Mulholland Hwy, Laurel and Coldwater Canyons (these are twisty roads in Los Angeles).

Truth is, my spirited summer driving on these roads for both cars seem equal (sold the RL in late June. Got the GS mid July). Both have terrific grip on turns. While the RL has more lean (without giving up traction), the GS350 has unbelievable grip (245/40-18) with little sense of lean. Of course these cars are not apples for apples. If the Lexus had 225/50-17's, the RL would shine brighter.

The RL's technology is noticeable and helps compensate for the FWD bias weight distribution. But you can still feel the front of the car being heavy. I do feel more confident taking turns/curves in the GS (because the lean is less noticeable w/o losing grip). With 51/49 weight distribution (an important factor), there is more confidence driving the GS - the combo of minimal lean, 51/49, a (large and) better torque curve and slightly better footprint makes me prefer the GS. The RL had a little better road feel on broken pavement - maybe in part because of the heavier front end. But driving the GS feels all around more confident (it should be the other way around if not on paper).

I really went to extremes driving on Mulholland. Behavior I last experienced as a care-free-I'll-never-die teen-ager in my 1981 Celica. Realistically, with slight spirited driving, you can't go wrong with either car. The difference in feel is determined by weight distribution. In both the climate I drive in and my driving style, I prefer torque and RWD vs FWD. If I lived in the northwest, upper mid-west or north east,...

Side note: I'm not knocking the RL. The RLs price, performance and technology can't be beat ($41.5 - $42K makes for a tasty delight but not for a dime more). One reason I sold the RL and went with Lexus is due to prestige (important for my profession). But my reasoning has expanded as I spend more time in the car (I'll save that for another post).

Acura should have gone with an equal weight distribution, AWD and an engine with more torque. (it also needs to go on jenny Craig and lose 400 lbs). Yea, we all bitch and moan about the poor sales and lousy marketing. But there is more to the equation why the RL hasn't taken off. FWD bias with a dose of technology can't stand up to competition that offers RWD and/or AWD (GS, M and BMW). It isn't design. Its mechanical. With a 50/50 weight distribution and AWD, the SH-AWD technology becomes a non-factor. The desired demographic does not want a luxury sports sedan that has a FWD bias (sorry... a little bit off topic as I vent).

Asking Acura to forgo a high revving engine vs more torque is useless as all Honda engines love to rev (unbelievable how dependable these high revving engines are). But if you have ever owned a supercharged car or a V8, you appreciate low end torque as much if not more then horsepower.

Thanks for reading.

kirbyflorida

I have driven both cars also and do not agree with your analysis.
Your 245 tires compared to the 225 is a big difference.
You like the image of the Lexus, I do not.
Enjoy your new car.
I have the Aspec on my RL and there is no need for better weight distribution AT ALL, especially on street roads.
I would write more but do not feel so inclined.

neuronbob

Thanks for the comparison! You are correct, this is really an apples-to-oranges comparison as your RL had the 17 inch wheels and no A-Spec. Those two differences alone on the RL ameliorate the frontal heaviness (which feels milder than one would expect even in stock form because of SH-AWD).

Agree with more torque needed, but that's an old argument that Acura plans to address with the new RL. As far as image.....it's all in each person's head. I don't really care what people think of what I drive, others do, that's fine!

I'm surprised to hear the GS350 has such good handling, but the bigger wheels with wider tires is likely what makes the difference. I'm glad you're enjoying your new purchase.

SpicyMikey

Hey Tully,

Thanks for the perspective. I can buy into everything (especially the prestige) with one exception. Your second to last paragraph talks about how the FWD can't compete in this demographics. Well, first, it's an AWD system and I've yet to experience any FWD bias. The weight distribution comparison is also hard to quantify in terms of driving performance (I've driven both cars during my test drives and didn't notice anything significant).

Bottom line for me; I don't think the RL's lack of success can be boiled down so easily. It's a lot of things added together in a formula which is very complicated. I'm certain the majority of sedan buyers are not like us. Certainly not like you; doing twisty canyon comparisons. More then 50% of the GS buyers are 40+ women going to the grocery store 3 times a week.

I suspect the prestige-to-price ratio is a large part of this whole thing. I only say that because most of the RL owners I've come to know are more inclined to look at a car on it's own merits and compare it based on features/benefits. You said it yourself, you sold the RL for a GS based on the need for more prestige in your profession.

A really good question to ask yourself is this; If the RL and GS were both Acura's (or both Lexus') sitting side by side in the showroom, which car would you have chosen? Same car and price as they are now, but with the same badge. I'd still pick the RL.

Mike_TX

I think your analysis is pretty accurate, Tully. But as much as anything, it shows why ice cream mfr's make both chocolate and vanilla (not to mention maple crunch). And also why I find myself disagreeing more and more frequently with car magazine writers.

No one vehicle is going to be optimal for all kinds of driving, not even the million-dollar exotics. And while SH-AWD, just to use one example, is supposed to be a handling aid, the RL still isn't intended to be a canyon-carver. In truth, neither is the GS, but it is certainly more sport-biased than the RL (the "S" in GS ostensibly stands for "Sport").

As Bob pointed out, the torque/hp issue has been discussed ad nauseum, and there is hope Acura is addressing that. (Much as the V-6 GS was underpowered before the new 3.5-liter came along last year.) I just hope Acura sizes it appropriately for the RL's weight and gearing, meaning at least 325hp/290 ft. lb. of torque. That's not really a big move up from my MDX's 300hp/275 ft.-lb.

I admire the GS, too, except for its smallish interior and trunk, and its lack of cutting-edge electronics. Because of those things, it's not ideal for my needs. But I certainly understand its appeal, and I'm glad you're enjoying yours.

.
.

larrynimmo

you know you all talk about comparisons of these cars...it is my opinion that less than 10% of 2nd gen RL are owned by women...I have never seen a woman drive one...when one entire gender gets left out, it will dramaticaly reduce sales and iterest.

My wife won't even drive the car...too complicated...she sayes.

SpicyMikey

Larry, did you get that figure from somewhere? Sounds almost impossible. I'd bet the demographics on a Ford F150 aren't even 90% male. The RL doesn't seem to be a "gender" biased vehicle. I'd guess the figures are closer to 60/40. But, I admit, I'm also just guessing. I'm guessing it's weighted towards males only because of the lack of cachet compared to a MB or Lexus in the same price range. When buying a car, women seem definitely more influenced by image, bling, etc. And guys are more influenced by performance, value, etc. I'd guess the Lexus GS is 60/40 female.

A website with buyer demographics for all cars would be cool to see. I've read bits of info now and then on such stuff but never saw a fully compiled list.

By the way, my wife, and daughter both love driving the RL. There's one other RL in my neighborhood in which I know exactly who owns the car. The owner is a female in her late 40's.

SpicyMikey

I answered my own question. A lot of cool info is on JDPower's website. I guess you won't find something unless you look. Quick Google brought me there.

I guess we're both wrong. The RL is about 70/30 weighted towards male. The GS is slightly more female at 67/33. The E is even more slanted at 64/37. I see a trend correlating cachet with females (as I would have guessed). However, maybe sedans are generally a male biased vehicle. Where's all the women? Driving minivans I guess.

Here's the links

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/lexus/gs/2007

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Acura/rl/2007

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/mercedes/e-class/2007

Mike_TX

Ummm ... you might want to think about this, Mikey. Those J.D. Power stats are for who is BUYING the cars, not who is DRIVING them. As is often the case with bigger-ticket purchases, the man usually signs for a car, even if it's primarily (or entirely) for his wife's use.

My buddy who sells M-B's says it is very rare for a couple to come in and buy/lease a car and the wife sign the paperwork. But we know many of those ML's, E's and C-classes are for the girls.

.
.

SpicyMikey

Ah, good thought. You'd think they would have taken that into account with their data gathering and at least stated that on the page. To be sure, I went and checked the stats on the Honda Odyssey. Yep, it also showed 69/21 male. We know that's not right. Most definitely be describing the buyer not the ultimate primary driver

So much for the JD numbers.

hungphan8

I got this one from Acura Sales Training for RL 08.
Target Actual(06)
%male 70% 68%
Age 50 58.5
%College 80% 68%
Household
income 150,000 168,000
In my area (Seattle), many RL buyers pay cash when buying one!

neuronbob

Damn, this IS an old guy's car! Actually, I fit all of Acura's targets but age. I guess some of us on this board pulled down the average age from 62 or something.

But those "old guys" have great taste, and obviously some money if they're paying cash..

Tully44

My underlying comments were that SH-AWD can not fully compensate for the heavier front end. In normal driving, the power is directed 70/30 (front and rear). And with SH-AWD activated, I think the numbers are reverse with 100% of power directed to the outer wheel. This helps the car take the turn better with the platform given but the technology doesn't fully compensate for the fact the car has a heavy front end. SH-AWD on an AWD platform with equal weight distribution would be optimal. I hope that's the direction taken for the next RL. It's a nice niche to develop (like Subura w/ 4WD).

Any car becomes a compromise. I prefer the ergonomics of the RL. I prefer the interior craftsmanship of the GS. Aesthetics of the car...both appeal to me. The prestige factor favors Lexus. It may be a matter of perception. But in close to four weeks as many comments have been received for the GS then I received in 18 months driving the RL. Impressive in the land of Bentley's, Lamborghini's, Ferrari's and fake boobs.

Mike_TX

Hey! We Grey Panthers out here object to being called old.

BTW - whose scan is that in your avatar? I hope it's not a violation of doctor-patient confidentiality to use it. (And if you look at it closely, it resembles an ape's face. Or have I looked at too many Rorschachs lately?)

.
.

TampaRLX-SH

The GS is a great car. I am sure you will like it. We all have to decide what appeals to us an the feel we seek.

However, do not confuse power distribution with weight distribution. Traction at the point where weight in heaviest is better for traction. However, the SHAWD system can intelligently override plow by dynamically altering torque to gain traction outside of weight distribution. A RWD vehicle can only rely on the rear traction.

A RWD vehicle can easily be 'nose heavy'. BMW is famous for balanced weight distibution and balance, but that does not dictate all RWD vehicles are better balanced.

It is more about weight distribution and usable traction. A well balanced vehicle can certainly feel surfooted in normal conditions, but the SHAWD system allows adaption for when it is not so normal.

The GS 350 weight distribution is 53% front, 47% rear.
The GS 439 weight distribution is 54% front, 46% rear.
The RL weight distribution is 58% front, 42% rear.

neuronbob

I know, I know. It's just that everyone I've seen with this car in the real world is around my age (late 30's, early 40's). Only Acura actually knows who buys their cars, though.

Those purported numbers from Acura certainly refute the thought that mature consumers shy away from tech in their cars, as has occasionally been argued here (not by me--my nearly 60-year-old dad is even more tech-savvy than I am and appreciated my RL when he had a chance to drive it! )

Tully, many of us share the hope that SH-AWD becomes an option. Rather than the Subaru approach (all their cars are AWD), I see Acura more as the Japanese Audi. Almost all of Audi's offerings are FWD with AWD/Quattro as an option. That would be a good direction to move to as I just don't see Acura doing much RWD, unless they make a huge change of heart.

larrynimmo

I am not an expert, but I will tell you every car I have owned for the past 20 years has been a front wheel drive. If you didn't know any better, driving this car, you would think it was a rear wheel drive. There is 0 torque steer. No matter how hard I push it i couldn't get it to break traction. Then I went through a bouncy turn and it went airbourne, but recovery was quite quick (thank god) This car is totally neutral through hard turning.

plastikman

I was in the area of a Lexus Dealer last night and I had to have a look at the models, sorry couldnt help myself. I like the style of the new Lexus models, especially the LS and the GS, but I am not sure I could spend the money they ask for. The LS I was looking at was 80k and the GS was 55K. The GS IMO is around the same price range as the RL but you are only getting half the car, the interior is smaller and the RL has much more features. I have only had my RL for about a year now, but I dont think I will be trading it in anytime soon, especially not for a Lexus

SpicyMikey

I agree. Don't all lexus models feel about 10% too expensive for what you get?

In all fairness, my bar is set very high based on exclusive Honda/Acura/Toyota purchases over the last 8 years. You can't beat the value those brands. Eventhough Acura is a upscale brand from Honda, I always feel like I can account for the price difference. Not so with the Lexus brand. It really seems like Toyota has priced them at a premium. Not so bad that I wouldn't consider buying one, but enough to become a negative check in the decision making.

Now MB, they're so out of wack with their valuations, I'm not sure I could ever envision a curcumstance where I'd buy one of them.

TampaRLX-SH

I come from family of almost exclusively Toyota and Lexus owners. I do feel Honda and Toyota products are generally reliable and better quality than many other brands.

But of late the Toyota and Lexus new models in the family have been significantly lower in quality than the past. 3 recent additions, a 2006 Avalon LTD, 2006 GS and 2007 Camry have been plagued with assembly problems and more shocking, two of them have tranny issues. The GS failed, and the Avalon looks like it is soon to be replaced. Fit and finish have been sorry with interior panels warping and rattling that made my TL seem like a brick. The Avalon interior crackles and buzzes on the smoothest of roads. The GS sounded like screws and clips came undone and were rattling around interior components. It has been shocking. I have been a Toyota fan for assembly and detail over Honda for a long time. I favor Honda engines and driving dynamics. But the RL in particular will stand up to the L on the grille. And I do think Japan assembly is far above US assembly for any moniker.

Well it seems to be changing. Sis traded her GS for an 07 RL and now seems to be swaying the whole family. All feel the RL is better built, better balanced and more 'solid' than the latest Toyota / Lexus offerings. The Avalon may if a larger RL makes it to market,,,it just needs 'more backseat room' I was a huge fan of the GS and seriously considered buying one when the TL was on the chopping block. I am glad the RL deal came when it did, I would have missed out owning my favorite! I feel I got more car for 15K less.

Toyota service could not care less. They seem annoyed when they take the car in with issues. The Camry has already had struts replaced (7K mles) and a Solara is on its 4th set with 33K miles. Squealing brakes on them all. Bad tire wear and window switches failing are common.

Lexus still has the service thing hands down. But now it is getting silly. Playland and neck massages? Please, just BUILD the car well and SERVICE is appropriately. Be clean, be professional and be good business people.

I like the way my family yanks on me for owning an Acura. But now that my sis has an RL, suddenly it is an 'amazing vehicle', 'rides more solid', 'steers like it anticipates the curves' 'better features and smarter toys' and a 'killer value'.

Honda and Acura are quietly infiltrating a very steadfast Toyota family.

SPUDMTN

It's interesting to see that the actual buyer of the RL has an income higher than what was targeted; I wonder how this works for those brands with higher cachet.

Here's my thinking:

With the added flash of other luxury brands comes a flood of poseurs who will do whatever it takes to score a vehicle with the right logo on the hood, no matter what their income is. This then lowers the average income of the actual buyer versus the targeted demographic.

Does this sound logical?

vluu

When I was searching for a new car late last year, I test drove the Lexus ES350, GS300, and the RL. My choice to go with the RL was based solely on "Best Bang for the Buck"! I think all Acura vehilces give you this! It's hard to find a car with all the bells and whistles in the low 40K range. I'm not sure why the RL gets such a bad wrap, but in my opinion...the RL is definitely a "luxury" vechile in my eyes! It has everything I wanted in a luxury vechile and more. I came from a bare bone 2000 Nissan Maxima SE....so this was a huge upgrade in luxury for me. Still loving the car and have no regrets on not purchasing a Lexus. This car will be around for while! I really think the RL is a "hidden" secret.

Rob L

IMO the RL with 18" summer tires will whip up on the GS.

IMO I think the mere bias of RWD that some car people have compared to FWD or (fwd based) AWD factors in the belief it has superior handling. The figures stated in reviews say otherwise as the RL always has the better numbers.

I feel my RL (with the 18" performance tires I have on it) handles as good or better than my previous IS300 and I would be confident in saying the IS300 is still Lexus' best handling car.

SpicyMikey

Interesting comparision with the IS. That's saying a lot. I haven't driven an IS but on paper you'd expect the IS to be a superior handler.

I agree, my RL handles extremely well when pushed and could never buy into this argument about it being "handicapped" because of the awd system. The weight distribution is good. Maybe a tad heavier up front then the GS but not that much. I can't imagine feeling the difference caused by that. However, I have the 18" wheels with PAX tires on my car and they handled noticably better then the non pax I test drove before buying. I'm sure that factors in positively to my personal experience.

acuralvr1

I agree that the RL needs larger wheels and tires, more torque and horsepower. Lexus does have a more prestigous name- though why it's important for his profession has to do with the fact he lives in LALA land- and Lexus service is consistantly good.

The GS's I drove didn't handle better than my RL and certainly didn't feel like they had more power and torque-even though on paper they do. In January, 2007 Lexus didn't have XM!- they're getting to the party very late. The trunk is the smallest I've ever seen for a luxury sedan- one golf bag turned sideways is all that fits. The driver's seat area is claustrophobic it's so small. I'm 5'11" and 190#. The car is made for tiny females in my opinion- that's who I see driving them around here. How anyone taller than 5'9" and 170# buys this car is beyond my logic. $10-12K more than the RL? Please, at the same price it's not worth it if you're a larger than average American.

Rob144

+1 on the driver's seat being tight and not offering much thigh support.

I drove the GS300 twice while deciding amongst the various cars. Maybe I didn't spend enough time with the car, but nothing stood out for me except the cramped quarters, small trunk, and looming dashboard design.

I realy wanted to like it since my wife really liked the styling and already has a Lexus, but the driving dynamics were nothing special over the competition. The RL made me smile as soon as I took off on my first test drive. Maybe the GS350 has raised the bar.

Rob144

vluu

True statement, I'm 6'2"/ 215 lbs and I felt like the roof was caving in on me. The other thing, the front windshield is so angled that you barely get any visability. There are some blind spots in the RL, but the GS... I couldn't get a very good 360 degrees view out at all.

Mike_TX

I hate to pile on the GS, but I agree. When my IS350 turned out to be unsuitable for my purposes, I at first considered upgrading to a GS350 to try to cut my losses. But, for a car as big as it is outside, it sure has a tight interior and very little trunk space. Part of it is the slope of the roof, which especially cuts into rear seat headroom - and space in general - but I still scratch my head, wondering where the hell all that space went.

Otherwise, I liked it pretty well ... the power was good, the ride and handling were nice, and it had some slick features. But I knew my mother-in-law would play hell getting in and out of that back seat, and any car that can't handle enough luggage for a week's trip automatically gets marked off my list.

.
.

skierslick

My wife has driven our 1998 es300 for many years with very few problems and decided to start shopping for a new car. Of course, the lexus dealer was the first place we stopped. Her car needed servicing and they gave us an lx suv to drive around in. I tried to convince her maybe we should look into an suv and she said she would only feel comfortable in a sedan. We agreed we would look into some all wheel drive sedans. After looking at what lexus had to offer, we felt that they didn't offer enough room in their AWD models. We drove the new es350, it was very similar to the one we own now and enjoyed the navagation and phone features. We next tried the BMW AWD 5 model and found it a very stiff but a well handling car. The only thing was that it didn't have a full time AWD system and paying the MSRP was the only option. We next drove the A6 and found it had had plenty of room, but it was a little too responsive to our driving comforts. About two weeks later, we went back to the Lexus dealer to make an offer on the ES350. He gave us a great price but we told him we wanted to drive an RL and got a great price on a 2007 with some incentives. We drove 50 miles to the dealer offering "the deal" and test drove the RL. We loved it. The AWD handling had convinced me that if it could drive this well on drive payment, it could handle the rough weather in the winter. The technology package blew all of the competitors away. It had alot more room than the ES350 and we felt it had as much power too. Needless to say, "The Deal" turned out to be the old bait and switch. We were so disappointed! We were offered a 2008 price and felt we could never deal with someone like this, declined to purchase. We drove 50 miles home and went to our Local Acura Dealer who made us a no nonsense offer and bought the RL. I picked it up the other day and felt like a kid again getting his first new car. We are hoping to get the reliabilty that we got with our lexus and feel comfortable with our Local Dealers service so far.

SpicyMikey

Great story, except the jerk Dealer. Welcome to this rather exclusive club. You discovered something few people evidently realize