jftjr

I think i've seen that somewhere before... hmm... could it have been, um.... posted in the very first post of this thread?

Mike_TX

No, you must be mistaken.







(Okay, okay, I messed up. That's what I get for checking in and out like a lurker.

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lindros2

Mike_TX -- you were probably viewing this thread from your LS460's nav system. Oh, wait, sorry, you have a Lexus not a BMW...

http://jalopnik.com/394825/bmw-idriv...g-more-updates

Mike_TX

LOL. I was obviously viewing it from inside my colon.

Actually, I've seen similar threads on other forums and lost track of which thread had the link and which didn't. I'm appropriately apologetic.

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jftjr

Mike, I didn't know you were an NHL referee?!?

(sorry for busting your chops, bud... )

Mike_TX

Haha. Nope, not a referee. But I'm tough to take it when I'm wrong.

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ssim3

Linoln has already got over 8,000 preorders on the MKS which has all the toys like the RL and a weak 6 to start out then a twin turbo coming in a yr. Acura is catching it from all sides.

TampaRLX-SH

An interesting Road Test of Genesis, this one with subtitles.


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TampaRLX-SH

An interesting performance review of Genesis (with subtitles)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8GEz6ioGTI

oban

Hmm, that was not a very positive review at all.

"Luxury parts do not make a luxury car."

lindros2

The point of my original post was to point out that although I have a 2005 RL lease coming due soon, there is little chance I'll move to a 2009 RL.

In hindsight, there were a lot more changes to the 2009 model than I gave Acura credit for. Unfortunately, there was one change - the front end - that immediately turned people off. Another lack of change - the same 5-speed transmission - could be a deal-breaker for educated buyers.

neuronbob

Um, I wouldn't buy a 2009 RL if I had a Nissan GT-R on order, either. Believe me, I am jealous but don't begrudge you over the move.

larrynimmo

just for anyone who is interested...

if you want a fully equiped Genesis V-6, List price is 40k. For the V-8 it is 42k.

it will be several months before the rebates come in. These prices dont excite me.

GoHawks

I mentioned in another thread that Hyundai had a a tent at the Concours D'Elegance here in SE Michigan a couple of weeks ago. They were offering test drives, but I didn't take them up on it. I did though spend quite a bit of time sitting in it looking it over.

I will say I was VERY impressed. Fit and Finish was on par with the RL. You could easily mistaken it for a Lexus, Acura or Infiniti if you didn't know any better.

Saying that, not sure they'll convince many that they should spend $40K on a Hyundai, but I will say one thing, they definitely raised the stakes. It's a sharp looking car.

jhr3uva90

I don't care what that Genesis can do, Americans care more about the brand than a car's capability. Your average American customer is NOT going to buy a luxury Hyundai, simply because it is a Hyundai.

cliffbig

Guess I'm not a typical American. Traded in the Acura, got a Genesis V6 with the tech package. The car drives wonderfully, is far quieter and more solid than the Acura. The seating is more comfortable. The space in both the passenger compartment and the trunk surpasses the Acura. The lines of the car are more appealing than the Acura. The navigation system is as good as the Acura's. The voice recognition system is better integrated in many ways. The 17-speaker Lexicon sound system is amazingly good--far better than the Acura's in richness and listener engagement (and bear in mind, I'm one of those people who really LIKES the ELS system). The system offers excellent HD-radio reception. The XM radio sounds far more rich and full than it did in the Acura. The simulated surround fields for CDs and iPod is far better. The system plays not only DVD-Audio, but it also plays the audio portion of DVD-video discs (and it plays the video as well when the car is parked); Acura actually had to disable this functionality on its sound systems, since all DVD players have the ability to play the audio from DVD-Video as well unless that ability is disabled by the manufacturer. The control knob placement on the console is much better than the Acura's placement on the dash.

I miss some things about the Acura. I think having a separate volume control for the center channel is a good thing. I liked the phone book import feature on the Acura.

Ultimately, we all have to decide what we want--I prefer comfort, performance, and (because I'm a music junkie) superb sound over a prestige brand name.

If Acura decides to quit bringing up the rear in terms of features and actually step ahead, I'll be back, I'm sure. But right now, I own neither an Acura nor a Honda--for the first time in 32 years.

GoHawks

To be fair, despite the MMC, the current gen RL has been out almost 4 years. It came out in late 2004 as a 2005 model. The Genesis is brand spankin' new.

At the time the RL was hardly "bringing up the rear", with SH-AWD, Navtraffic, DVD-Audio, noise cancellation, active headlights, ACE body structure, aluminum suspension, carbon fiber drive shaft, CMBS, ACC, industry leading voice recognition, and some of the best iterations of a navigation system still.

I don't mean to sound like I'm living in the past. The Genesis better offer more, but I'll guarantee you that when the new RL comes out in 2010, it will trounce what the Genesis will be offering then. Heck, I bet the upcoming TL will come close to offering if not surpassing the Genesis.

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed with the Genesis, but you're comparing a lame duck model to a brand new car.

Hyundai is trying to make inroads using the same formula that made Acura successful initially. Selling "value". Assuming the Genesis is the real deal from a quality and reliability perspective, it will score some sales from the same type of people who buy the RL. That is people who research and understand cars and aren't sold on badge prestige. Other than that, I suspect that it won't really make a dent in the luxury car market. Most people who have the disposable income to make the purchase will not want people to mistake their $40K investment as "just a Hyundai", and MOST people who are in Hyundai's demographic aren't going to spend $40K on a car.

Look at the failed experiment VW had with the Phaeton.

I'm not being a brand snob. Look at the RL a couple of years ago. The RL fared very well in those early road tests and comparisons. Many times beating out other mainstream luxury brands (eg. Lexus GS300 AWD, and BMW 525xi, etc.), yet still those models still outsell the RL.

Again, I'm impressed with the Genesis, but you have to look at all facets of the equation.

CL6

I think the Germans said that about Acura and Lexus when they started.

larrynimmo

tell us more about the genesis...what did you pay before tax & tags

neuronbob

100% agree. Don't count the Koreans out!

The Genesis sounds like a compelling package. I'll take SHAWD every day here in NE Ohio, though. Still want to test drive it. Maybe I'll do it today since I'm off....

larrynimmo

I did some research (by looking at the Genesis forum) and could see that people are paying 39.5k for the v6 equiped car. I am not saying the car isn't worth that, just that to me the the purchase of an RL (08) would be a better value. Now if you have to have a V8, the Genesis V8 offers and affordable value.

cliffbig

I paid $39,000 ($1000 less than list) before tag and taxes.

I feel like I got more for my money than I got with either the 2006 Acura RL or the 2007 Acura MDX, neither of which I still own.

I understand that Acura doesn't make major body redesigns that frequently, but a failure to do continual upgrading of tech features is a major setback for the company, making them look like they're continually playing catch-up rather than leading the pack.

I liked many of the improvements in the RL this year, but Acura's ongoing decision to cripple their DVD player so that it only plays increasingly-rare DVD-Audio discs and not the audio from DVD-video discs, combined with their lack of HD-radio, ruled them out for me. (I own lots of DVD-Audio titles--probably 100 to 125--but like all of us, I'm finding very little being issued in that format now, while I do find some music video compilations on DVD-Video that include 5.1 surround tracks, which I can enjoy in the Genesis but could not in the RL.)

rlerman

wonder what an 09 Genesis will be going for in 2012?

cliffbig

Of course we can't say for sure--we can only speculate--but I will bet you that the depreciation on the Genesis will be proportionately no worse than the depreciation on the Acura. In spite of the remarkable hype about Acura holding its value, I have found that neither the MDX nor the RL has retained anywhere nearly as much value as was initially estimated (the RL residual value was lowered by Acura's flopsweat-desperation rebate/price reductions, the MDX by the slide of the SUV market).

And the simple truth is, I don't care. I don't buy a car based on its resale value. I buy it based on its value to me at the time. Does it give me the performance, comfort, and features that I desire? If so, then I'll buy it. When it comes time to get another vehicle, I'll make the same evaluation and determine what I want to buy at that time, then pay what it takes to get me what I want.

GoHawks

I agree, but when it comes to a luxury brand, if the Genesis is the real deal as I said, then it would be in their best interest to launch a luxury brand.

MOST people will not spend $40K on a Hyundai when they can buy a Lexus. They're just that shallow.

Heck, I can't tell you how many people I've run into over the years who don't know Lexus is Toyota's luxury arm.

I highly doubt the American buying public would be spending $70K for a Toyota LS460.

It's all in the packaging.

Acura is hamstrung because we've heard people refer to them as "gussied up Accords", do you really think mainstream America is going to accept a $40K Hyundai? Call it something else and I'll guarantee you it will be a different story.


I hope the Hyundai is real, it will just raise the bar for everyone else.

lumpulus

I'll take that bet, and please let us know, how your "reliability" is.

xejshinex

mileage for RL is 16/22 18 for combine..

2009 Acura RL 3.7L V6 300hp 271 torque 16/22 in city/highway
2009 Hyundai Genesis Sedan 3.8L V6 290hp 264 torque 18/27 in city/highway
2009 Hyundai Genesis Sedan 4.6L V8 375hp 333 torque 17/25 in city/highway
368 hp 324 torque with Regular fuel 375hp 333 torque with premium fuel

Chas2

And the folks at Honda are saying, I wish we had a 6 speed transmission. I think the 5 speed is holding them back now in terms of performance and mpg

gbriank

Don't be surprised to see Acura implement selective cylinder usages (as Honda is doing). I think that would increase the fuel economy and give a bit more "life" to the 5 speed automatic. I'm sure Honda isn't clamoring to make a big transmission change over (as the last time they did wreaked havoc....anyone remember the 5 speed autos from 2000-2003?)

ssim3

They may not want to change trannys, but the market will dictate it. Esp if Honda thinks they are goin to be 1st tier. All comp is at least 6 speeds and some are at 7. Mileage and performance is gonna require Acura to step up & develop their own or go to a contractor & purchase a more modern transmissin. Esp since most Acura defenders say an 8 is not neccessary, due to fuel efficiency, but with a proper trans 8's get better mileage than the v6 & 5pd combo that Acura currently offers. Also to be 1st tier Acura needs t update their engines to direct injection.

cai06

With all due respect, this is not a fair comparison at all because there is no Genesis with AWD drivetrain. Everybody knows that an AWD drivetrain is less fuel efficient (~20% loss?). All things being equal, Honda would have the same if not better mileage.

With torque vectoring SH-AWD, the RL will always outhandle the Genesis, even the V8 Genesis. That being said I hope the next RL comes in RWD and SH-AWD to level the field..

dwboston

Wow - that's 3 posts on how wonderful your Hyundai is and how much better it is than the RL. Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

I'll take the resale value bet as well. Hyundai will be dumping these things before too long. 6 months from now you'll be kicking yourself for paying too much.

dwboston

+1. I'd always opt for the torque-vectoring AWD over the RWD. Who really gives a crap about RWD besides car mags and forum fanboys? RWD is a non-starter in the Northeast, where not coincidentally, Acura and Audi do very well.

TonyCD

Thanks, DW. I couldn't have said it better myself. The same goes for Chicago.

I can never understand where this attitude got started that if it ain't RWD, it doesn't count no matter what else it can do. RWD is a deal killer for me. I'm very impressed with the Genesis and would consider it seriously, but not until they get an AWD variant -- with or without the vaunted V8.

By the way, C/D did have an interesting comment about another aspect of the Genesis: only the V8 comes with proper hydraulic power steering. The V6 has that electric power assist that nobody except VW can seem to extract any road feel from (including Honda, who seems to have ruined the TSX with it).

jhr3uva90

I would prefer my next car to be RWD, basically for the smaller turning radius. The RL turns like an SUV.

neuronbob

People in CA don't need AWD but an option for RWD would be nice for the weight loss and performance. I personally would still by SH-AWD again even though Honda hasn't found a way to lighten it--witness the new TL, where SH-AWD is over 200 pounds. I'd be happy with slightly rear-biased SH-AWD, though. Wouldn't that be nice?

Chas2

Just out of curiosity, how does the weight of SH-AWD compare to other systems such as Audi, BMW and MB, etc.,?

Is it as simple as comparing the curb weights of the AWD models and the non-AWD models?

DoctorTuna

I would agree that it is not an apples to apples comparison but I think there is more to it than just the AWD drivetrain. Gross vehicle weight, transmission, coefficient of drag, gear ratios and final drive play a part as well. Most consumers don't look at all the variables, all we can go on is what the EPA conclusions are based on the most recent formula.

Having said that I looked at the Audi A6 and compared the variables for their FWD and AWD variants for kicks and giggles.

A6 3.2 Multitronic 255hp 243lb/ft Weight 3858 Trans 7-speed CVT 18/27/21
A6 3.2 Quattro 255hp 243lb/ft Weight 4034 Trans 6-speed tiptronic 17/25/20

Better gas mileage for the Quattro than the RL but less performance numbers. There isn't a huge loss of mileage though between the FWD/AWD A6 and one could argue it is weight/transmission advantages as well. Bottom line is that Acura is dropping the ball on gas mileage. Consumers see a V8 in the Genesis with huge performance numbers and better gas mileage, period.There is no question Acura will extract better performance from the AWD/3.7L set up with some additional gear ratios.

cai06

I believe weight is not the only variable; AWD systems (which vary a lot in complexity) have more losses due to friction: driveshaft, differential, bearings, axle, etc. But again ,a similarly powered (300hp A6 will probably have less efficient mileage. apples to apples.

Acura has -hands down- a far superior -and more complex, performance oriented- AWD system than the Quattro. BMW is just starting to copy the yaw-controlled AWD system of the RL; and of course since it's a BMW, the car press is going crazy..

Nice video here:
http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2004-4040401a/

ssim3

When you live in an area where it has not snowed in 20 years you would prefer the option that was lighter, more responsive, more efficient & less likely to break. That is why there are very few RL's & A6's on the road down here & there are no awd 5's, E's and M's on the dealers lots.