gdevine

I would not trade my RL for a new gen v8 RL. I have to keep my cars for at least 5-7 years. I find the V6 to be exhilirating enough on an everyday basis. However having said that, a relative of mine just gave me a ride in his new Porsche GT3 and I just walked around excited for about 3 days having experienced the incredible acceleration. He could only take it up to 6k RPM (break in period) and it just hauled ass. It made me think about the V8 in the RL but then practically speaking I'd rather have a weekend super fast sports car in addition to a fast luxury car (current RL).

The acceleration on the Porsche was amazing. WOW

SpicyMikey

Beautiful car in every way. I haven't riden in one in over 20 years. I envy you. The 911 was my first car crush at age 12. Having said that, I wouldn't trade in my RL for a 911. It's not very suitable for a daily ride. If I have the means some day, I'd love to get one as my weekend car.

neuronbob

I'd do a low-mileage lease on one just as a weekend car.

Jackzilla

With all due respect for all the enthusiasm for an RL with a V8 option -- it is not going to happen without a totally new RL platform design. The current platform is based on that of the past Accord, which was optimized for, at most, a V6 engine.

A V8 could not be shoe-horned into this platform's engine bay without radical redesign of the transaxle to allow for the extra engine length -- not to mention totally revamping the platform's front end and powertrain mounting cradle. And, even if all this was done, you would end up with such a totally nose-heavy vehicle that, SH-AWD or not, it would understeer like a pig. Moreover, this does not even take into account how much longer the front end would have the be to accomodate the extra width of the 90 degree cylinder angle V8 versus the 60 degrees of the current V6.

A properly designed V8 RL, in my judgement of the way Honda engineers design cars, will be a totally new vehicle. To be done correctly, it will have a longer wheelbase, be longer overall and will be rear-wheel drive to allow engine placement for good weight distribution. An overall desigh like this is not typical of the way Honda engineers cars, so my expectation would be something else, but uniquely Honda.

My guess?? Still a V6, but perhaps a turbocharged, direct injected, gasoline or diesel engine of about 3 - 3.5 litres. Both would produce big torque at low RPM of about 1500 - 2000 (with diesel being superior) and around 300 - 350 HP at 4000 to 4500 RPM. Still SH-AWD.

A layout like this would, from Honda's perspective, be right in tune wiht the times -- highly fuel efficient and with excellent milage plus being highly competitive in terms of acceleration and passing performance.

The new Mercedes E-Class BluTec diesel is almost just such a car right now. It's a V-6 turbocharged, direct injection engine of 3.2 litres and puts out maximum torque, considerably in excess of its 3.5 L gasoline counterpart, at only 1500 RPM. Performance is virtually the same as the gas engine - in some ways superior, as in passing - and the diesel gets 37 MPG on the highway.

I could be totally out to lunch, but this is the kind of solution I see coming from Honda -- a cutting edge technology direct injection V6 with high performance AND high energy efficiency.

GoHawks

^^ Didn't the Mugen RL have a V8? If I'm right, the platform can accomodate a V8.

JamesDunning

Please tell what MMC stands for. thanks

GoHawks

Mid-Model Change. basically a refreshing of the current platform.

Mike_TX

Well, those of us who cut our automotive teeth on V-8's, and who have experienced recent good ones (my '06 Infiniti M45 being one, and my previous run of 3 BMW 540i's being another), know that a good V-8 makes a car so much more lively and nimble-feeling. It doesn't have to be a horsepower monster to do this - it's just a matter of the way the car effortlessly scoots out when you give the accelerator a light touch. If you haven't driven a good V-8 in a few years, you may have forgotten how it transforms a car. Just go do a test drive at a Beemer or infiniti dealer and tell me you're still thoroughly happy with your V-6.

Don't get me wrong. I love my RL, but I'm not about to tell you I wouldn't love it more with a lively V-8 under the hood. What the RL now strains to do with its V-6, my old M45 and 540i's did without even breaking a sweat. It was exhilarating just to drive to Walmart.

And the myth of horrific mileage with V-8's still annoys me. I can squeeze 28-29mpg out of my RL on the highway under good conditions, but I got equal highway mileage out of my V-8 BMW's. My Infiniti got more like 25-26mpg on the highway, but that was due to its unnecessarily low gearing. Even so, that isn't exactly bad mileage.

The BlueTec diesel from M-B gets that claimed 37 highway mpg in controlled factory tests, but in real life that figure is more like the low 30's. Better than my RL's 29, yes, but not an earth-shattering improvement (especially with diesel costing more than premium gasoline in many areas). And the best clean diesels aren't cleaner than gasoline engines - just cleaner than older diesels. And they all burn crude oil products, so diesel isn't going to save the planet.

Yep, I'd like a nice V-8 RL.

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SpicyMikey

all good points. Still, you have to admit the RL is a "perky" 6 cylinder car. I really don't feel like I'm compromising much. Now when I get in my MDX and step on the gas, I feel that strain you refer too - even with it's larger 3.7L engine. That's the vehicle I wish had a v8 in it.

Jackzilla

There's no question that a V8 has more of a cachet with auto buyers (enthusiasts) than a V6 or in-line 6. But then again a V12 or V16 (or W16 in the Bugatti Veyron) has greater cachet still when it gets down to what really just amounts to bragging rights -- "mine is bigger than yours".

Nevertheless, when all is said and done, if a car has a low power to weight ratio, any engine, no matter how many cylinders, will move it effortlessly and with great acceleration. If the RL was 500 or 1000 Lbs lighter there would not even be this discussion, because its 290-300 HP would provide more acceleration than anyone could reasonably ask for.

Even that being the case, there would still be those individuals whose egos would not be satisfied with anything less than a V8 under the hood of their car.

As an example of this consider Mazda's RX8 with its Rotary (Wankle) engine. I don't know what numbers it sells in, but I don't doubt that comparted to the RX8 the Acura RL looks like a mass market success. In terms of power output per cubic inch of displacement, the Mazda Rotary puts just about any production engine to shame. And in terms of performance the RX8 is a really fast car -- thanks to the fact that it is quite light, for an excellent power to weight ratio.

If the RX8 has any real shortcoming it's in fuel milage -- the gearing of this car for the characteristics of the Rotary just does not deliver very good fuel efficiency. But then again high performance and fuel economy are pretty much mutually exclusive yet that doesn't seem to limit sales of BMW's M-Series, which are not exactly fuel sippers.

But the point about the Mazda RX8 not being a huge seller, despite its high performance is that the Wankle Rotary simply doesn't have the kind of cachet (despite its extremely exotic operating design) that gives "street cred", to use modern vernacular, when it comes to engine bragging rights.

I would bet, that if Mazda offered the RX8 with a V8 option, even with just equal or even inferior performace to the Rotary, the V8 would eventually become the only offering in the car.

In my opinion, if Axura offered the RL with either V6 or V8 power with more or less equal performance capabilites (and assuming no huge premium for the V8). over 90% of those on this forum would opt for the V8 -- probably would even if it carried a really huge premium, like $5000 to $7000 extra.

All you V8 admirers should take a really close look at the new Lexus IS-F coming out in early 2008. Lexus has stuffed a stroked LS460 V8 of 5Litres into the IS series platform. Power output over 400HP. 0-60 in 4.6 seconds. Could Lexus have built an "M" killer??

Jackzilla

In my message above make that "a HIGH power to weight ratio". Should have proof read it more carefully

neuronbob

I disagree. Most people would still opt for the V6. Just look at the result of the poll. Only 30% would trade in their RL for a V8 model RL. A V8 would attract people in general to look at the RL before they drive off in their V6 model. Only die-hard enthusiasts (ahum, me) might opt for the V8, and if there were a truly hefty premium, maybe not then.

larrynimmo

V8 versions of upscale cars generally require all of the upscale options in one package. The complete package will likely go for 59,599 (including freight) Production will be very limited and the car won't be heavily discounted for at least a year. Considering I paid 38 for a nontech 07, I don't see myself pulling another 20 out of my wallet...for what...60 more HP and less MPG. If I could buy a nontech 10...its a stretch..., but i might go 42 for the V8 model. I was not the customer that Acura had in mind when they designed this car. I am truely a TL customer that moved up to an RL as an affordable upgrade. We all want the goodies and the upgrades, but a lot of us aren't going to pay much extra for them. If you say you'll charge 1k extra for the v8 upgrade, you'll likely get 80% going for it. Charge 5k and you'll be lucky to get 20%

Chas2

I have to agree. I think I was and still am a TL customer, who never bought a TL. You guys swayed me over to the RL, although I was ready to buy a TL because I did not think I could afford a 50K Acura!

neuronbob

This was me, too. The only differences are that I actually owned a 3G TL for three years, and a 2G TL for two years before that, and I can afford a 50k car and still put money in investments and savings (very thankful for that, too, especially in this economy).

I didn't get a 2G RL sooner because when it was released, I was only a year into owning my TL and was thoroughly enjoying that.

Now that I've owned an RL, though, I can't see myself going back to a TL unless a) my current RL breaks down (doubtful), b) the new TL is damn near perfect and c) the next RL costs $70-80k or is fugly and underpowered.

Mike_TX

I keep scratching my head when people equate V-8's with "ego". Folks, it ain't about my ego - it's about providing me a satisfying driving experience. No one has to know I have a V-8. I don't want big "V-8" badges all over it. I just want the quickness of response that V-8's offer and V-6's typically don't.

I drove V-8's exclusively for over 35 years, and went to V-6's only in the last 4-5 years. To be honest, I always associated 6-cyl engines with economy cars and rental units at Avis. My 3.5-liter 2004 Maxima was the first 6-cyl car to begin to change my mind. That VQ engine made more go-power out of its 255 hp than the numbers suggest, and the car felt lively and responsive. My V-8 M45 still just blew it away in driving feel, though.

Then came the RL, and frankly I considered it a compromise because of its V-6. And as much as I love the car, I know I'd love it more if it had a responsive V-8 under the hood. It doesn't have to be a Hemi ... that's overkill. I just want that torquey, lively, eager feel that a good V-8 has. And V-6's just don't.

Jackzilla, I wouldn't take a V-10 or V-12 if you gave it to me. Again, that's total overkill. Just give me a nice little V-8 of about 4.5 liters, maybe 325 hp and 300 ft.-lbs of torque, and I'm a happy boy.

(Oh, and one of the reasons the Mazda rotary doesn't sell is the huge lack of low-end torque and the fact you have to be ready to add a quart of oil every 750-1,000 miles.)

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Mike_TX

If Infiniti is any indication, that's just not true. My 2006 M45, with Journey Pkg. (equipped roughly like my RL, with Nav, air-conditioned seats, sunroof, Bluetooth, etc., etc.) listed for $52k. I got it for $2,500 off list (that's $49,500) just about 3 months after they debuted. You can do better now.

I see no reason a V-8 RL would have to be $60k.

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larrynimmo

look at the base M35 & the base M45. Both cars are pretty much the same equipment but the 45 is 6k more expensive. If you add all the packages (except for the entertainment package -- called by a different name) the M45 is 56k plus freight. That is a 2wd car. Everybody expects a larger RL. I personally believe they will target the RL against the 7 series and the LS...the price of the RL will go up considerably, maybe as much at 10%. It will be worth the added cost to buy this car, but you will be appealing to a different buyer....that buyer can afford the v8 upgrade. You heard it from me first....the top dollar 3rd gen RL will approach 60k. Pure Speculation.

When the 09 TL comes out, it will tell you a lot. I look for this to be the car that goes after the 5 series...I don't think you will see SHAWD as std for all TL's. The new TL will go after a broader group of customers.

VOdoc

Coulda had a V8? At $3.71 a gallon and rising for premium gas, I don't think so...

My expectation going forward is that automakers will devote more attention to fuel economy and less to raw horsepower. It will take a certain amount of motivation for Americans to start to think like Europeans in this regard. Maybe $6.00 a gallon? Maybe more?

I'm loving my V6 RL and would love it even more if it got the fuel economy of the TL.

Mike_TX

I don't doubt automakers will concentrate on economy in the future. But I hope I go on to my Great Reward before I begin thinking like Europeans.

I also hope Americans wake up and make the idiots in Congress open up some of our oil lands before we HAVE to become Europeans. We're sitting on oil reserves many say are bigger than the Middle East's, and they won't let us drill offshore CA, or in ANWR or in much of the Gulf or offshore from the Northwest, Northeast or Southeast. IOW, there is a ring of "no-drill" area all around the U.S.! Gasoline costs what it does because of global and U.S. politics, pure and simple.

As for TL v. RL, my '06 TL got maybe 2mpg better mileage overall than my RL, and of course both require premium gas. Based on driving the standard 12,000 miles a year and an overall hwy/city average of 23 vs. 25, that's a whopping 42 extra gallons a year. Even at your (high! ) $3.71 a gallon, that's only $156 a year. (I paid $3.00 9/10 for premium yesterday, so the difference for me is less.) Not a bad price to pay for what you get.

I think people tend to equate V-8's only with M-B AMG's, Dodge Vipers, 'Vette's and other high-performance engines that DO get pitiful mileage. I don't want anything like that, just a nice family-car V-8. And if my 335hp '06 M45 was any indication, there's no mileage penalty for having a nice V-8.

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tasdisr

I see that Infiniti has posted prices for the 08 M Series. There is a $7000.00 price difference between the M35xAWD and the M45xAWD.
EPA estimates for the M45x are 14/20.

neuronbob

This is OT, but I have to agree with this. Part of the issue is that it's easier to kowtow to certain governments than to become energy independent. But again, that's something left to Ramblings or, more specifically, their Politics and Religion subforum.

Anyhoo, as I said above, most people won't opt for the V8 anyway and those that do won't care much about mileage as they have the scratch for the gas. Most people will look at a V8 halo car, say "cool!", look at the price and gas mileage, buy the V6, and then drive as if they were in the V8 model anyway.

That's what a halo car is supposed to be....it's supposed to capture the imagination of the public enough that they walk into the showroom, even if they only end up with the V6 model.

BTW..... at the M45x mileage. I'll be test driving it, but not buying it. This is because I'm not buying anything else before I see what Acura has up its sleeve.

TampaRLX-SH

I agree, Honda should have a V8 option for the RL. I doubt a clear majority of Honda consumers would care or opt for it. But it may bring in some that would give the Acura brand more consideration if it were available.

I expect Honda will have a V8, but I also expect a Honda V8 to be one of the most efficient and low emission choices out there. It will likely not be the most powerful, but again, at least one would be on the consumer's branding mentality radar.

I do not think it is unreasonable to expect a 300+ hp V8 from Honda with 275+ ft/lb torque and better economy than out current V6 RL (if even by a slim margin). And that would have to be ULEV friendly to be in Honda's engineering pholosophy (are there other ULEV V8s out there?). With those attributes in mind, I might consider the V8....but again, with fuel costs soaring, I would want our current V6 then rated 20/30+ mpg, and would select that option (or a green V6 diesel).

In effect, most Honda buyers do not need (or want) a V8. But particularly for the Acura brand, they should have one...just because they can. It would also lift some of the specualtion as to why Honda cannot engineer one while staying within the corporate philosophy. It would show some Honda sensibility while pushing the envelope.

Mike_TX

^ ^

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Mike_TX

That doesn't surprise me, having been an M45 owner. Infiniti has the M series (and the G, to a large extent) geared so low it's ridiculous. My M45 ran at least 1,500rpm higher at highway speeds than my RL. It seemed like it was stuck in 4th gear, and the constant refrain on the M forums was "Give it a 6th gear!"

Our humble RL's are rated at only 16/24, and I'll bet if you raised the gearing of the M so it ran at RL levels, it would match the RL's mileage.

(BTW, no matter what the EPA rating, I routinely get 18.5 city and 28-29 highway with my RL.)

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sadlerau

Just nit-picking here, but all Honda's already have "hemi" heads.

And my 2 cents worth, regardless of what we on this forum think, Acura NEEDS a V8 RL as one of it's "halo cars". If you have looked at, or been in a 5 series BMW, they aren't that special. It's mostly about marketing. Sure they might handle well, with the Sports or Driving Pack, or whatever they may call it. But the base model, without upgraded suspension would be no better than your RL [without A-spec]. It's all about perception.

On topic, I'm with the minority, give me the power of a V8. A V8 badge is not necessary, just the grunt!

Trust me, with just minor tweaking of the set-up, you are already driving one of the best handling "luxury sports sedans" on the market. With the appropriate grunt, it would be on a par with the Audi RS4, or BMW M5 or E55AMG. At a fraction of their cost!

RL-Type S8 with 4.4 V8, 400 hp, 6 speed auto, sports handling...... wait, don't wake me till the dream is over.....

Bring it on I say, the que starts behind me

lindros2

Remember Bob that as Acura RL owners we're content with a V6. We, however, are a minority, as evidenced by 2G RL sales.

I for one am not going to pay more for V8 up-front and over the life of the car (increased gas usage). The RL gets poor enough mileage as it is - I don't need a V8 to make things worse.

Acura needs to figure out how to get weight out of the car (it is WAY too heavy), get rid of the gimmicky SH-AWD (I slammed into a wall with it so think it's shit compared to quattro), and make the design similar to the TL (more to Americans' liking). RWD would be great.

-josh

Mike_TX

Well, that's not necessarily so. Many of us "settled" for the V-6. We didn't buy the car *because* it had a V-6, we bought it in spite of it, especially since it was advertised as having 300 hp, and that seemed reasonable. And we bought it because the car has a ton more content than similar cars in the class, and because of aggressive pricing.

Bob's poll question unfortunately skews the results. The way it is posed, people are being asked if they'd give up a vehicle they have invested a lot of money in, and trade it (undoubtedly at some extra cost) just to get a V-8.

The better question would be how many people who walked away from an Acura dealership would have bought the RL if it had had a V-8. But of course, that's unanswerable ... at least on this forum.

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Mike_TX

That's why I used a capital "H" ... I guess I should have used "©", to denote the Chrysler trademark. "Hemi©", as in "That thing got a Hemi© in it?"

This is where I differ. A halo car would be some kind of giant-killer, like the BMW M5, Dodge Viper, Lexus IS-F, etc. I don't want no stinkin' halo car. I just want a good ol' workhorse V-8. But that's just me.

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