March 2006 RL sales results
04-10-2006, 12:48 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
Of course I can elaborate on both counts, but I won't because it's unnecessary. There is ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING contradictory in my statements on the interior. Read my words again. Read EVERY SINGLE word. Maybe even a dictionary might help you.
On the technology side, I'll let YOU read more about the M and the GS. That's not my responsibility.
On the technology side, I'll let YOU read more about the M and the GS. That's not my responsibility.
you state the the RL is clearly superior technologically, and clearly superior in interior design, to both the GS and M. it's pretty clear to me what you stated. yet you go on and criticize the RL in relation to the GS and M. If the RL was so "clearly" superior in interior design, then why all the criticism?
And you can be sure i've read and studied the RL, M, and GS extensively and probably more-so than you, before I decided which car to purchase.
which is why I can state and defend my point that the RL is NOT clearly technologically superior to the GS or M.
Maybe since you are so new here, you didin't realize that if you're going to make statements, it IS your responsibility to support them with facts and/or opinions.
last time I looked, this is a discussion forum. but if you're unwilling to discuss your point of view because it's "UNNECESSARY", then maybe your point of view is also "UNNECESSARY".
04-10-2006, 12:54 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
I think everyone here has made very well-stated points. I know I keep harping on one issue, but please don't underestimate the power of brand perception. Until recently, the general public had forgotten all about Infiniti, so they had a clean slate to work with. Acura's job is, in some ways, more difficult than Infiniti's because they DON'T have a clean slate. Acura has been pigeon-holed into the role of Japanese Volvo: a premium brand but not a luxury brand.
Let me put it this way: of the RL was a Lexus, it will sell twice as many units. You wouldn't have to change anything about it. Conversely, if the Lexus GS was an Acura, it will get the same chilly reception that the RL has gotten. In fact if the GS was an Acura, I think Acura customers would be complaining that the V8 version costs too much!
Let me put it this way: of the RL was a Lexus, it will sell twice as many units. You wouldn't have to change anything about it. Conversely, if the Lexus GS was an Acura, it will get the same chilly reception that the RL has gotten. In fact if the GS was an Acura, I think Acura customers would be complaining that the V8 version costs too much!
I firmly believe that if Acura came out with an exceptionally good looking exterior and silhouette like the GS exterior combined with a V8, the RL would have sold immediately, regardless of any previous perceptions on luxury status. Simply look at the Infiniti M (and G35 also).
04-10-2006, 01:10 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
I'll have to disagree with you. You can not underestimate the extent of what Infiniti was able to accomplish. Acura's challenge is not nearly as great. Post hoc or adhoc analysis is always easier and taken for granted while looking in the forward direction is always more uncertain for the human brain.
I firmly believe that if Acura came out with an exceptionally good looking exterior and silhouette like the GS exterior combined with a V8, the RL would have sold immediately, regardless of any previous perceptions on luxury status. Simply look at the Infiniti M (and G35 also).
I firmly believe that if Acura came out with an exceptionally good looking exterior and silhouette like the GS exterior combined with a V8, the RL would have sold immediately, regardless of any previous perceptions on luxury status. Simply look at the Infiniti M (and G35 also).
On a side note, I think Honda should have released the new Legend/Acura RL a couple of years earlier than it did. It did not help the RL that it was released only 6 months before the new GS and M. In fact, you can see how RL sales started to drop as soon as the other two cars became available.
04-10-2006, 01:12 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
I'll have to disagree with you. You can not underestimate the extent of what Infiniti was able to accomplish. Acura's challenge is not nearly as great. Post hoc or adhoc analysis is always easier and taken for granted while looking in the forward direction is always more uncertain for the human brain.
I firmly believe that if Acura came out with an exceptionally good looking exterior and silhouette like the GS exterior combined with a V8, the RL would have sold immediately, regardless of any previous perceptions on luxury status. Simply look at the Infiniti M (and G35 also).
I firmly believe that if Acura came out with an exceptionally good looking exterior and silhouette like the GS exterior combined with a V8, the RL would have sold immediately, regardless of any previous perceptions on luxury status. Simply look at the Infiniti M (and G35 also).
brand image isn't created overnight, and it's earned by the products. At one time or another, BMW and MB products EARNED their brand image/reputation. Lexus products earned their brand image/reputation.
the m35/45, as well as the G35/FX are EARNING Infiniti a stronger brand image.
As for the RL, it's a decent offering among stellar competition. it's not "clearly" superior in any way, so it's not earning Acura any kind of reputation besides the one they already have.
Its gotta start somewhere, and I believe that it's an appealing product(s) that helps a brand's image (as in the case with the M35/45). Only then, after the image has been raised, can it help make products more appealing (as in the case with the 5 and E).
But if people are justifying low RL sales because it lacks image, that's just a cop-out excuse for a product that's non-appealing relative to its rivals.
maybe this is a case of acura over-estimating its image.
04-10-2006, 01:17 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
Mr. Deeno,
I have reviewed a few of your other posts. You are quite "the psychologist," but your machinations and manipulations will not work on me, and you will learn this well in time.
I have reviewed a few of your other posts. You are quite "the psychologist," but your machinations and manipulations will not work on me, and you will learn this well in time.
HAhahahaha that's funny.
But call it what you will. whatever your conclusions in your posts, i would simply like an explanation or evidence to support how you formed your conclusion.
You can call it machinations and manipulation if you like, but it's only fair that you support your conclusion.
so can you support your conclusion about my "manipulations" by providing evidence?
Or again, is it not your responsibility?
04-10-2006, 01:22 PM
#47
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Again, I think the RL's timing was bad. If they had not waited so long to release the RL, then it would have been clearly superior. A 2003 or 2004 RL with the 2005's capabilities would have been far beyond what Infiniti and Lexus had at the time.
That being said, the luxury market is an image game. Could someone please tell me what is clearly superior about the Lexus GS or the Mercedies E-class? Yet both product lines sell well within the class of cars. It just so happens that there are luxury car drivers who feel that "Why pay a lot for a car if they whole world can't recognize that I spent a lot for this car?" Those people will go with the established names, regardless of the cars' capabilities.
That being said, the luxury market is an image game. Could someone please tell me what is clearly superior about the Lexus GS or the Mercedies E-class? Yet both product lines sell well within the class of cars. It just so happens that there are luxury car drivers who feel that "Why pay a lot for a car if they whole world can't recognize that I spent a lot for this car?" Those people will go with the established names, regardless of the cars' capabilities.
04-10-2006, 01:31 PM
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Or, AGAIN, I have. I have done exactly what you want with regard to the interior. Read again, again. Read EVERY SINGLE LINE, again.
On the technology issue, why don't you do us a favor and list the pros and cons for all three cars? Your list for the RL (and that hilarious link) indicates your idea of technology is about gadgets and electronics. The only thing on your list I would call an ENGINEERING technology aspect is the SHAWD. How about if you talk about the chassis, platform, suspension, and engine? You obviously haven't researched Nissan and Infiniti with regard to cost-cutting and Carlos Ghosn. If you knew how deep and pervasive the situation is, you would not have bought the M45.
On the technology issue, why don't you do us a favor and list the pros and cons for all three cars? Your list for the RL (and that hilarious link) indicates your idea of technology is about gadgets and electronics. The only thing on your list I would call an ENGINEERING technology aspect is the SHAWD. How about if you talk about the chassis, platform, suspension, and engine? You obviously haven't researched Nissan and Infiniti with regard to cost-cutting and Carlos Ghosn. If you knew how deep and pervasive the situation is, you would not have bought the M45.
04-10-2006, 01:37 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
That being said, the luxury market is an image game. Could someone please tell me what is clearly superior about the Lexus GS or the Mercedies E-class? Yet both product lines sell well within the class of cars. It just so happens that there are luxury car drivers who feel that "Why pay a lot for a car if they whole world can't recognize that I spent a lot for this car?" Those people will go with the established names, regardless of the cars' capabilities.
This is how I see it...if all the products in this segment were equal, then image would be the deciding factor. But then again, all the products are not equal, so image plays a different role depending on how strong the product is.
For example, MB has a strong image and the E is a semi-great product. But BMW is a strong image with a great product, which is why it outsells the E.
Infiniti has mediocre image with a great product, which is why it is more or less neck and neck with the GS, which has a semi-great image with a semi-great product. Looking at the current and past sales figures, they are more or less neck and neck. This is testament to how a great product can overcome image.
Audi has a semi-great image with a mediocre product (with reliability problems as well as costs working against it), but I would've expected it to be a little stronger selling.
The RL is a mediocre product with a mediocre image, and its sales reflect both the product and image of Acura.
And don't get me wrong, when I say mediocre, I am mean relative to the other products in this class in terms of performance, value, options, etc.
04-10-2006, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
Again, I think the RL's timing was bad. If they had not waited so long to release the RL, then it would have been clearly superior. A 2003 or 2004 RL with the 2005's capabilities would have been far beyond what Infiniti and Lexus had at the time.
That being said, the luxury market is an image game. Could someone please tell me what is clearly superior about the Lexus GS or the Mercedies E-class? Yet both product lines sell well within the class of cars. It just so happens that there are luxury car drivers who feel that "Why pay a lot for a car if they whole world can't recognize that I spent a lot for this car?" Those people will go with the established names, regardless of the cars' capabilities.
That being said, the luxury market is an image game. Could someone please tell me what is clearly superior about the Lexus GS or the Mercedies E-class? Yet both product lines sell well within the class of cars. It just so happens that there are luxury car drivers who feel that "Why pay a lot for a car if they whole world can't recognize that I spent a lot for this car?" Those people will go with the established names, regardless of the cars' capabilities.
04-10-2006, 01:48 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
Or, AGAIN, I have. I have done exactly what you want with regard to the interior. Read again, again. Read EVERY SINGLE LINE, again.
On the technology issue, why don't you do us a favor and list the pros and cons for all three cars? Your list for the RL (and that hilarious link) indicates your idea of technology is about gadgets and electronics. The only thing on your list I would call an ENGINEERING technology aspect is the SHAWD. How about if you talk about the chassis, platform, suspension, and engine? You obviously haven't researched Nissan and Infiniti with regard to cost-cutting and Carlos Ghosn. If you knew how deep and pervasive the situation is, you would not have bought the M45.
On the technology issue, why don't you do us a favor and list the pros and cons for all three cars? Your list for the RL (and that hilarious link) indicates your idea of technology is about gadgets and electronics. The only thing on your list I would call an ENGINEERING technology aspect is the SHAWD. How about if you talk about the chassis, platform, suspension, and engine? You obviously haven't researched Nissan and Infiniti with regard to cost-cutting and Carlos Ghosn. If you knew how deep and pervasive the situation is, you would not have bought the M45.
You can't be serious.
but ok, let's talk about the chassis/platform/suspension/engine:
RL is built on the same platform as the Accord/TSX/TL and uses the same J-block engine (with a different displacement) as the v6 accord/TL/MDX/Ridgeline/Oddy, and also has the same trouble-prone tranny as the v6 Accord/TL/MDX/Ridge/Oddy. RL suspension parts are all geometrically the same as the Accord/TL since it's the same platform.
The M is built on the highly regarded FM platform used in the highly regarded G35, FX, Z, and now the highly regarded M35/45. The M's 3.5 engine is from the highly regarded VQ family, shared with the Altima, Z, FX, etc. etc.. The M's 4.5 engine is from the Q/FX45. the M's tranny is from the QX56, so we all know it can handle the torque.
And further, the RL's platform is FWD-based (as in front-heavy), while the M's is a RWD based platform with better weight distribution.
Now please tell me again about Acura's...er, i mean Ghosn's cost cutting...
Please don't assume you know what I do or don't know because I will gladly show you...
04-10-2006, 01:57 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
If you knew how deep and pervasive the situation is, you would not have bought the M45.
I know how deep and pervasive the situation is with Nissan/Infiniti as I bought the stock 5 months before they started making money again and made a shitload off of it once ghosn took over and the stock took off.
As for platform sharing, every company does this, some better than others.
Nissan has been able to use FM platform from the Z to create great products for infiniti, such as the G35, FX, and M. The inherent advantages of the platform translate to inherent advantages in the offspring.
and in the end, the M is a great product, offspring of the FM platform or not. And that's all that matters in the end.
04-10-2006, 02:04 PM
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Aside from the Honda transmission problem you have made NO OTHER valid points. You clearly did not do your research sufficiently before you bought the M45. Nothing you researched on Infiniti concerned you with regard to the platform, chassis, suspension, and ENGINES? You've got to be joking. I find it astonishing that your brashness could be based on such total incompetence.
Look, I am a fan of many carmakers. But when I make my own purchase, I OVERSTUDY. I never buy because I'm a fanboi of some carmaker. If I am a fanboi of some carmaker, first I acknowledge that and scrutinize my own scrutiny even more closely. The human brain is able to do that because it can monitor its own thinking, almost like two brains in one. You seem to have had a failure with both brains.
And before you mention it again, again, the answer to your interior design harp is in my original post, again, again.
Thank you for your patience, Mr. Deeno.
Look, I am a fan of many carmakers. But when I make my own purchase, I OVERSTUDY. I never buy because I'm a fanboi of some carmaker. If I am a fanboi of some carmaker, first I acknowledge that and scrutinize my own scrutiny even more closely. The human brain is able to do that because it can monitor its own thinking, almost like two brains in one. You seem to have had a failure with both brains.
And before you mention it again, again, the answer to your interior design harp is in my original post, again, again.
Thank you for your patience, Mr. Deeno.
04-10-2006, 02:28 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
Aside from the Honda transmission problem you have made NO OTHER valid points. You clearly did not do your research sufficiently before you bought the M45. Nothing you researched on Infiniti concerned you with regard to the platform, chassis, suspension, and ENGINES? You've got to be joking. I find it astonishing that your brashness could be based on such total incompetence.
Look, I am a fan of many carmakers. But when I make my own purchase, I OVERSTUDY. I never buy because I'm a fanboi of some carmaker. If I am a fanboi of some carmaker, first I acknowledge that and scrutinize my own scrutiny even more closely. The human brain is able to do that because it can monitor its own thinking, almost like two brains in one. You seem to have had a failure with both brains.
And before you mention it again, again, the answer to your interior design harp is in my original post, again, again.
Thank you for your patience, Mr. Deeno.
Look, I am a fan of many carmakers. But when I make my own purchase, I OVERSTUDY. I never buy because I'm a fanboi of some carmaker. If I am a fanboi of some carmaker, first I acknowledge that and scrutinize my own scrutiny even more closely. The human brain is able to do that because it can monitor its own thinking, almost like two brains in one. You seem to have had a failure with both brains.
And before you mention it again, again, the answer to your interior design harp is in my original post, again, again.
Thank you for your patience, Mr. Deeno.
Ban? Anybody? Can we get a ban on this newb?
Jeez, what's with these Acura fanboi's?
04-10-2006, 02:31 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Did you even read my post? EVERY point of my post is valid and I support it. yet you call it invalid, and provide NO proof why it is invalide and call me incompetant.
Ban? Anybody? Can we get a ban on this newb?
Jeez, what's with these Acura fanboi's?
Ban? Anybody? Can we get a ban on this newb?
Jeez, what's with these Acura fanboi's?
04-10-2006, 02:33 PM
#56
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Actually, you are the one who should be banned. That much is clear. You like to provoke and push but stay close to the edge. You badger and push and prod and play mind games. You think you can fake me out?
Your "approach" is out of line and unacceptable.
Do not do that again with me.
Your "approach" is out of line and unacceptable.
Do not do that again with me.
04-10-2006, 02:42 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
Actually, you are the one who should be banned. That much is clear. You like to provoke and push but stay close to the edge. You badger and push and prod and play mind games. You think you can fake me out?
Your "approach" is out of line and unacceptable.
Do not do that again with me.
Your "approach" is out of line and unacceptable.
Do not do that again with me.
Wow, you jsut keep going, don't you. Please provide SOMETHING to support your conclusions.
Is that just too much to ask?
And what's with the threats?
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