Mike_TX

Got an L460 for an extended test drive last week, and drove it around familiar roads and freeways for a few hours gaining impressions about it. I naturally compare it to my RL, since the RL is my current luxury sedan.

In bullet form, here are some quick observations, pro and con:

Pro's for the LS460:

- Ride quality is excellent, better than the RL's over sharp pavement breaks, bumps and ripples. The LS creamed over stuff that would make the RL jittery. I felt no noticeable difference in lean and sway.

- Seats are more adjustable.

- Cabin noise was a good bit lower in the LS, as might be expected. There is just more sound insulation against road noise, tire hiss, and outside noises.

- Power in the LS is much more immediate and the extra hp and torque is quite obvious. Forceful takeoffs and quick passes are a breeze, and cruising at highway speeds is effortless. Easy to go faster than you intended.

- The 8spd transmission is fluid and shifts are almost transparent. Acceleration downshifts come quickly and since there are 8 gears, they aren't jolting or head-snapping - just forceful.

- Interior space is much better than in the RL. Lots of legroom and shoulder room, and the backseat passengers are given first-class legroom.

- Trunk space is about half again that of the RL.

- The LS's road presence is greater than the RL's ... it just looks more imposing and "classy".

- The LS's "toys" are more numerous. Automatic door closers (more useful than you think), the same one-touch door lock and unlock as the RL, push-button start, heated AND cooled front seats and heated rear seats, automatic power folding mirrors, automatic electronic parking brake, a better backup camera, parking sensors that display a car graphic on the nav screen showing distance, a brake "Hold" button on the steering wheel for standing at lights and in traffic, rear power shade control in the back seat armrest, dual-pane laminated glass in the front side windows for sound attenuation, etc., etc.

- Lexus service, dealerships, and overall customer treatment are far nicer than Acura's.


Cons for the LS:

- The LS has no AWD option.

- Nav has the in-motion lockout. There is a workaround, or hack, that allows 5 minutes at a time to program, seek POI's ,etc. while moving.

- VR doesn't seem as accurate as the RL's, if Lexus owners are good judges of that. (They seem to be pretty intolerant people. )

- Cruise control must be turned "On" every time the car is restarted, just like Infiniti, BMW and others. An extra step and a nuisance.

- TPMS readout doesn't show which tire has which pressure. Pressures are just displayed in a single vertical column.

- Electric power steering a smidge over-boosted and has slightly less feedback than the RL's, although it is accurate and has no on-center dead spot. (Better than my IS350's.)

- Nav is touchscreen, which some may see as a benefit and others a liability.

- The LS costs about $20,000 more than the RL.


Bottom Line:

Regardless of brand loyalty, the LS is a really nice car, and it trumps the RL in interior and trunk room, power, comfort, gadgets and overall class. True, it's more expensive, but it can be had for $7,000 off MSRP ... something you couldn't always say for Lexus flagship cars. It has M-B and BMW beat in reliability, and you are treated like a real person at most Lexus dealerships.

There are a couple of compromises, like the nav lockout and the lack of SH-AWD. For those in the snowbelt or who exploit the handling part of SH-AWD, that may be an issue. Overall, though, most of us won't miss these things.

For those who can't - or don't want to - spring for the price difference, it's a moot point, but this is one case where it does seem to pay to go first class.

Just my opinions, of course.

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Rob144

Someone's getting drawn into the Lexus vortex!

Actually, I was interested to read the comparison. If you're going to go Lexus, may as well go top of the line.

I had my in-laws here over the weekend, and though we didn't drive in my RL, we did bundle into our NAV-equipped Odyssey and headed for yet some other relatives across town. A NAV lockout would have driven me crazy! Sure, I could probably put up with it if I were in an LS, but it would be a pain.

The LS definitely has presence on the road, but not much "pop". There are some nice touches in front the way the fenders, hood, and grille all fit together. The view aft is rather a letdown.

The question is whether an LS is about $20K "better" than the RL?

Rob144

plastikman

I have also ventured to my local Lexus dealer and looked at the LS, it is without a doubt easy on the eyes. One thing I noticed is the interior reminds me of our RL, am I wrong? Nice write up Mike.

sleepinxlionhart

I've sat in the LS460 once. Pretty nice, but I couldn't really tell the difference between the RL and the LS's ride quality. To me, they both seemed really similar. Then again, I wasn't in it for that long.

I think the RL's HIDs are better than the LS's though, seems more concentrated and sharp in the RL.

I also like the RL's gauges, a lot better looking than the LS's bland one color gauges. And the design of the RL's gauges are a lot more sportier.

VOdoc

Nice comparo. There are 2 LS460s in my hospital parking garage that I see every day. They look to me like verrry nice Camrys. No way could I ever consider shelling out $20K more.

neuronbob

It's not really a fair comparison, but one appropriate to make as we contemplate the future of our RL. I know Mike knows this, though.

The LS460 is a no holds barred luxury sedan and the RL is a mid-luxury sporty sedan. I have absolutely no doubt that it's worth spending more than for the RL if you're in that market.

kirbyflorida

What about handling, turn in response, road feel, and nimbleness for all of us who like crisp cars on the road?
thanks

dwest1023

I will tell you, IMO the RL is much more fun to drive. LS IS nice but not in the same class as RL. Think iof the LS as sitting on your living room couch and holding a steering wheel. Nothing wrong with that if that floats your boat, but I like the sporty side myself.

kirbyflorida

That is what I found with the LS 430, even worse, super boat. Have not driven the 460 yet, not my kind of car.

jhr3uva90

The RL and the Lexus LS are two completely different classes of car. It is like comparing an apple to an orange. The problem, of course, is that Acura is the only "luxury" brand that does not have an LS-class car. I believe that is something that hinders public perception of the Acura brand.

Chas2

Nice post, good to hear from someone that is not an automotive journalist with a product to sell, and from someone we know who gives very astute comments. While I do not think it is a fair match, it is still a good write up! What else will you be cross shopping, no BMW, Audi or Benz?

VOdoc

I know I probably end up sounding partisan here, sorry if it comes off that way. I agree that the LS460 is a different class of vehicle and that Lexus has mastered the customer-service experience, unlike many Acura dealers including mine.

Yet I can't seem to get past the fact that, at its essence, Lexus = Toyota. (They have cleverly severed that link in the minds of many consumers.) Years ago I had always imagined working my way up through Saab to BMW to Mercedes as my own little sport-to-luxury continuum. The Europeans not only got overly expensive, they also got careless with quality. So when I survey the current luxury scene, in the words of the poet Gertrude Stein, "There is no there, there."

Lexus may make nice cars and take good care of their customers, yet the big swoopy "L" doesn't cut it for me as a luxury brand. I still see a Toyota logo in my mind. Nothing wrong with that, just not worth $$$$$ more than Honda/Acura. There's that, and the boat factor.

I could afford to pay more for a fancier ride, but why? The RL hits the sweet spot for me. Obviously, based on market acceptance, I (we) represent the minority.

JMHO.

jhr3uva90

Amen!

Mike_TX

'Appreciate the comments.

It's true it's not a totally fair comparison, but mainly in the sense that there's a big price differential. For us 'car guys', though, comparing anyone's flagship to anyone else's is fair game. And I suspect a few of you have looked pretty hard at LS's, 750i's and M-B S-classes, especially since most of us think in terms of "moving up".

As for the nav lockout, I agree it's a big pain. I did try setting destinations via VR, though, and had no trouble with that. It's searching for groups of POI's where the main problem comes in (like "nearest restaurant", etc.) There is a plug-in device being sold that allows full functionality for 5 minutes at a time, after which it times out. If you need more time, just push the button again. A band-aid, for sure, but until someone cracks the OS, it is workable. I had a similar home-made hack on my Infiniti M45.

A side note is that Lexus has done away with the "Agree" screen ... the nav just displays the usual warnings, then boots up and starts working with no action required. And since it's HDD-based, it is quick.

Handling is a somewhat subjective matter, unless you live by skidpad numbers and slalom times. I tossed the LS around pretty hard by my standards, but then I'm no longer into seeing how fast I can go around a corner before the tires break loose. I do know I could take 45mph cloverleafs at 65-70 without seeming overly heroic and without rolling the car. I also did some "evasion" maneuvers on a deserted road just to see what it would do, and it handled it fine.

I disagree the LS is a flabby car that wallows and rolls all over the road. I figure anyone who says that hasn't really driven one. It's probably not as tight as an RL, but then it rides much better, so that's a fair trade-off for some of us.

Instruments? Yeah, the LS's needles and numbers are simple and direct, but the cluster also does some really cool graphics. Instead of just numbers showing the temperature, for example, there is a high-res image of a thermometer, with the temperature next to it. If a door is open, there is a another high-res image of the car with a door open. And so on. IOW, the IP displays are on sophisticated thin-film TFT's and are very nice.

The interior may have an RL flavor, although I think the RL's has a bit more "personality", with more swooping, curvy elements. The LS's center stack is blended into the upper dash a little better, and is less busy-looking than the RL's. Lexus interiors have always looked a little more German ... the seats look firmer, the lines are more formal.

And Chas, I have looked briefly at the 750i. I'm not as turned on by BMW electronics, though, even though my past experience with BMW has been good. Audi just somehow doesn't do the job for me - it's just a personal thing, I guess.

Anyway, as the post title suggests, I knew this comparo wouldn't interest everyone. And I respect the differences of opinion. I'm probably out of the market for the LS at the moment, but the dealer is still trying to lasso me in before the books close on 2007 in a week. Everytime they call the price goes down a little, so I guess it's still possible they'll make a deal I can't refuse.

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SpicyMikey

To me the Lexus brand is not very overpriced. There's value there with the LS given the choices in that segment. However, I agree with your assessment of the European brands lately, especially the German cars. BMW just anounced huge layoffs in their German plants last week. Merry Christmas! I think that's the beginning of things to come. MB will follow. They are loosing their competitive edge and their products are loosing quality at the same time. They still have image, but that won't last long without quality products and value. Sounds like Detroit in the 70's

synth19

nice review, I was always impressed with this car since it came out.

Aman

i dont think you can compare a car like the LS to a car like the RL. the LS is a very luxurious, very expensive car that is promarily designed to impress. the RL is a luxurious, sporty car thats good in the snow and impresses the driver, and then the passengers.

kirbyflorida

The RL is much more of a drivers car than the LS. The LS is designed as a luxury cruiser.
Both excellent as they are designed.

static808

Nice review, very fair. Hopefully Acura can look at the LS formula and go one step further and create a better luxury sedan in the LS/S/7series space. That's what I am waiting for.

The NAV lockout would freak me out. I also like the fact that in Acura's, the NAV is sooo easy to use.

Mike_TX

Amen to that. I LOVE the fact I can zoom in and out without even looking at the control knob - your hand just falls naturally to where it's located. And when you have to input alphabetical or numerical data, the "arc" design of the alpha screen makes it easier than anyone else's to quickly spell out things.

The Lexus has the usual grid of letters. You can select between alpha or QWERTY keyboards, but you still have to search out letters or numbers on the grid.

Honda/Acura has an absolute lock on nav convenience and usability.

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Mike_TX

I hear a lot of that opinion expressed, but I really don't agree that's always the case.

While some people undoubtedly do buy cars like an LS or an M-B or BMW to impress other people, some of us don't really have anyone to impress and don't care what other people think. The car interests me because it has a good reliability record, excellent performance and ride quality, and lots of the kind of toys that make driving fun.

My wife and I are both retired and we travel a lot, so a comfortable highway cruiser that's entertaining to drive is what turns us on. I don't want a sloppy-handling Buick (I'm not THAT old, LOL), but I'm into comfort. And this generation of LS has been firmed up just enough to make it handle well and still ride like ... well, like a Lexus.

If I drive by in a Lexus and you're impressed, then that's just gravy, I guess.

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larrynimmo

it is unique to find someone who truely cross shops RL & LS. While a comparison can be made from many aspects, they are widely seperated and are at oposite ends of mid-priced lux sedans....the medium being 5 series & E class. Yes, I would have paid another 10k to get the LS over the RL...but not 20k.

gdevine

I don't think you can compare two vehicles that are priced 20k apart from each other. What is even more incredible to me is that there almost is a comparison. This just makes the RL an even more incredible deal.

visuelz

the LS460 beats the RL in looks hands down.

kirbyflorida

The RL kills the 460 in handling, hands down, not even close.

SpicyMikey

Looks are subjective. Hard to debate that. However, neither of them seem to make any exceptionally bold statements. They both seem to get lost in traffic rather easily. I find that to be true with all the Lexus sedans EXCEPT the IS. Is it me or does the IS catch your eye when it goes by you on the highway.

NavyDoc333

That's funny... I ALWAYS notice an IS on the road. I really like the IS for the type of car that it is..and as a stand alone car to purchase, I think it would be great. BUT... whenever I consider that 'segment' of the market... it starts to look less appealing. I'm pretty sure I would get a 335i or A4 if I was shopping that class.
The TL/TSX never seemed to show up on my radar in that class. (Although the RL didn't either, until my friend bought one and recommended I take a look).


I started shopping the IS350 (dealer quoted 41k loaded...this was when they first came out)... then looked at the 335i, when I found out that I could get an RL for the price of a 335i(or IS for that matter)... I jumped on it.

neuronbob

I notice the LS460 on the road, but with all that bulk it would be hard to miss. I personally like the styling of the big Lex, much better than its past iterations.

Mike_TX

Interestingly, that extra bulk doesn't translate to excessive weight ... the LS weighs in at 4,244 lbs., while the RL weighs 4014 lbs. - about 230 lbs. difference in curb weight for a substantially larger vehicle.

If the restyled RL does indeed come with expanded interior dimensions and with a larger trunk - as many have hinted it will - I suspect that weight difference will be all but erased.

Of course, my other car is an MDX, so driving something "large" doesn't bother me. I DO appreciate the LS's extra interior room and trunk space, though.

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dwest1023

I for one will be sadden if the next gen RL is much larger. I prefer smaller cars, and the current RL is large enough for me.( I also have a 06 Mazda Miata). I have to admit, I have not driven the new LS460, and if they have taken car of that boat like ride of the older version, then it must be a very good car. As I have noted many times, once you get up in the 50K market, I do detect a lot of difference in cars. It all comes down to splitting hairs. AS far as RL comparison. Value wise, it s the best in the market place right now and that is the reason most of us have one. I am positive the next Gen, will be technology on wheels, but at what price???

RL06tech

Just my 2 cents.... The LS is all about cush, in that respect it has no peers, however, no one would confuse it with a driver oriented vehicle. It the perfect car to ride in the back, or to spend hours in the interstate. Personally I would not own one, well maybe, if I were 65+ with deficient eyesight and a bad back!

Mike_TX

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cai06

Exactly my thoughts! IMHO the RL is more of a drivers car whereas the LS is more of a passengers car; in my mind they are oriented towards somewhat different demographics.

The other day while driving home i had the rare opportunity to see and compare from behind the new LS460 side by side with a MB S550 (or 500?) anyway, the MB had the new Maybach-like tailights. I think the LS460 has more presence and stance, and I really like the wing-like tailights; OTOH the S reminds me of a Kia

Jeff_Drive

Below is a comparison between the the LS460 2008 and the Acura RL 2008. Look at the interior space. The LS460 for interior space doesn't really beat the RL unless you say 0.3 inches is a large distance.

Also, if you click on ratings (crash ratings) you'll see the LS460 has been tested, but the RL 2008 has been with 5 stars all around.

http://lexus.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/le...b=measurements

The first number is LS460 and the second number is the RL.
Front Headroom 38 in. 38.5 in.
Rear Headroom 38 in. 37.2 in.
Front Shoulder Room 58.5 in. 58.5 in.
Rear Shoulder Room 56.4 in. 56.1 in.
Front Hip Room 55.4 in. 55.1 in.
Rear Hip Room 55.5 in. 54 in.
Front Leg Room Being Researched 42.4 in.
Rear Leg Room Being Researched 36.3 in.
Maximum Luggage Capacity 18 cu.ft. 13.1 cu.ft.
Maximum Seating 5 5

kirbyflorida

wow, this says a lot, way to go Acura.

SpicyMikey

Unfortunately leg room wasn't compared. I'm sure the rear leg room on the LS is a couple inches more. Having said that, I think the LS is not big enough for the price and it's category. I bet a lot of people moving up to the LS from the GS go with the long body version. That adds several more inches to the back and it starts to feel like a limo back there. Very nice if you have a driver and are in the back seat a lot.

Hey Mike_TX, why aren't you considering the 750? I know it's getting redesigned in 08 so you can get some good deals on it right now. They are practically giving them away on lease deals.

jhr3uva90

Still, the LS and the RL are two different classes of car. The former is a mid-size performance/luxury car and the latter is a full-size (or larger in the long-wheelbase version) luxury car with some performance.

Karl_in_Chicago

Mike - thanks for the objective review.

I'm surprised how attached I've grown to the excellent Acura Navi system. I'm somebody that once decried the prevalence of such systems and declared how I could get by just fine with a map, thank you very much. Now that I've been using the RL's Navi for a couple years I'm hooked. By extension, I can't imagine having a car with a Navi that places such restrictions on its use like the Lexus (and other makers) does.

I'm hoping the next gen RL is a little more LS like - more interior room and definitely more trunk room. I still doubt we will see a V8 on it (where would they source it from, their Indycar program, LOL?) but I have always believed the existing V6 could perform a LOT better with a more sophisticated transmission; a 6, 7, or even 8-spd (8 does seem like way overkill though) would allow the car to remain in the powerband much easier. If Acura were then to provide the driver with a mode selection (sport, economy, weather) the operation of the tranny in full auto mode could be further tuned.

Chuck091279

Agreed Karl, if the option exists, I'd rather drive a car that doesn't have the navi-lockout. Now, if all cars migrate to that functionality, then there isn't an option really.

VOdoc

Ha! Me too. I passed on the navi in my first Acura, a rattly 2004 TL. At the time, navi was a $4000 upgrade--$2K list price for the option and $2K additional market-driven price spread. A trusty Thomas Guide was a no-brainer at $20. With the '06 RL and real-time traffic, things changed. In truth, the navi was the main impetus for my trade-up. (Of course, RLs come with other benefits as well. )

Having just bought my wife a superb widescreen Garmin nuvi 650 for $300 to use in the Odyssey, I have to say that Garmin's navi technology is years ahead of Alpine's. The readibility of her 4.3" screen exceeds that of my 8" screen and the routes are selected more logically.

And neither the Garmin nor the Acura/Alpine system treats me like an idiot by locking me out when in motion (unlike Toyota/Lexus).