deepdezal

Hi SpicyMikey-

Thanks for the info. CMBS system on my car is acting the same way, but I haven't taken my car to the dealer yet. Hopefully, you can get this issue resolved soon.

SpicyMikey

Latest Update:

I got the service manuals for the 07 Acura RL and read through the chapter on servicing and troubleshooting the ACC and CMBS system. As I suspected (based on common sense and comments from others), there is a lot more that can be checked other then just checking for DTC's. In fact I learned quite a bit about how to troubleshoot radar alignment problems.

I went through the troubleshooting flowchart on page 25-77 and 78 of book 2. Their own troubleshooting flowchart concludes the millimeter wave radar unit vertical aiming is incorrect

The manual also further (and better) describes how the system should be expected to work. Again, this is not what I am experiencing.

Turns out the alignment needs to be out by at least 5 degrees before the self diagnostic procedures will throw a DTC. However, the manual says that performance problems can occur if the gun is out of alignment by more then 1 degree. There are adjustment screws for horizontal and vertical alignment to fine tune it 3 degrees (plus or minus).

Vertical alignment is easy. it just takes a standard bubble level. Nothing special. There's a platform molded into the gun's casing that you would lay the level upon.

Horizontal alignment is harder. it requires ensuring the guns angle is at 0 degrees relative to the cars body. This requires a special tool that is basically a pole with a reflective surface at a fixed height. it's on castor wheels and stands on it's own. It comes with a 16.5 foot wire that is attached to the back tow hook and then strung under the car to align with a marking under the front bumper. The line then continues out the remaining feet where the gun is aimed. They had a sketch of it in the manual. You could certainly make something yourself if you knew the height of the refector.

Now that I know what needs to be done, I will force this issue with Acura Corporate to have the system fully checked. Clearly, their statement that "nothing else can be checked", is a lie.

The more they fight me on this (and the more time I'm forced to invest in it), the angrier I'm getting. Now that I caught Acura Customer Services lying to me, I am going to demand they fix the system to perform per their documentation -- no exceptions. If the won't/can't, then I'm filing a lemon law case against the manufacturer (safety features qualify). I want this car fixed to perform per their marketing and documentation, OR, I want compensation for a $5000 feature I purchased based on misleading advertising.

I think this is going to get ugly fast.

lland

Wow...great research. It would be intersting to see their reaction to the issues raised in their own documentation. I'll bet the threat of a lemon law filing will get their attention. Just don't delay based on promised of their doing something "eventually" (see the thread about the guy that had the successful Lexus lemon law filing). I'd also make it a point to (at least in your mind) remember that the guy at the local dealer seemed to be on your side.

Good luck and let us know.

LL

sotiri

Glad to see you got the manual. I knew there were so many different checks and I couldnt write them here on the forum
One that my manual says is to check for any warping of the grill, as if there is any warping of the plastic where the acura symbol resides, it can cause radar issues.
Basically it all goes back to the ACC modules, and aiming

SpicyMikey

That's what makes it a bit sticky. My brother is a salesman for Acura. Although the service side is a completely separate entity (in many ways) they all know each other. The service side has been trying to step lightly wth me to try and resolve this without also hurting themselves. of course, it's all about the bottom line, so, they're not going to invest in special tools and take action without a green light from Acura. They want to be compensated for ligitimate servicing. Right now "corporate" is saying this is not a service issue (i.e. it's an issue of incorrect expectations on my part)

I stopped by the dealer yesterday and had a good talk with the service manager. Again, understanding their "rock and hardplace" position, I told them I'm not accepting the company's pat answer on this one, I expect a better (more convincing) answer than what I have gotten. They agreed the next step should be to have the regional rep meet with me next Tuesday and test drive the car with me. We'll see where that goes

SpicyMikey

Yes there are lots of things to check that fall into the "mechanic" category. I think all these guys are getting "soft" on us now that cars have all these onboard computers and self diagnostic circuits. All they know how to do is plug in their hand held diagnostic system and read for trouble codes. If the computer says everything is "OK", then that's good enough for them.

Now that I realize a simple level can be used to check for vertical allignment, I'm stunned they haven't done at least that much. Not that they're bad mechanics, it's just that they've become so conditioned to follow the computer they don't even feel it's necessary to open the hood unless the computer tells them too. I'd check it myself, but the gun is covered by all this plastic housing. It's held on by 12 push pins. I know how easy they are to break and don't want to mess with it while it's under warranty. Besides, that's their job. I shouldn't have to do it. It's a matter of principle.

SpicyMikey

Update: Acura "Client Services" called me back today -- finally. They still don't think anything is wrong with the car but agreed to have the area rep look at it and make his recommendations.

I basically told them you better hope something is wrong with this car, otherwise, the alternative is even worse. If they conclude this CMBS system is working as designed then that means your marketing material is what's broken! If that's the truth then I'm ready to contact the Florida Attorney General's office to initiate an investigation with the Economic Fraud division. If it's true they made some late changes to the system to "tone it down" (a rumor I heard), then, they should have changed the marketing and other documentation. I made my purchase decision based on that material.

Here's a link to one of the many places where you can read about this great CMBS system (near the bottom of the page). I'd like people to read this and post a response on whether my expectations are unreasonable.
http://www.hondanews.com/categories/755/releases/3766

Now that you've read it, let me tell you what my car does; When my RL is closing on the car in front at about 20mph (andis within 2 seconds of impact) it goes into stage 1. At this point you are just about at the point of no return. Another 1 second delay in breaking and it would be too late. I have to jam on the breaks and trigger the ABS to avoid impact. The car safely stops with about 1 or 2 car's length distance between them. I've never been able to get it to go to stage 2. Since I was only a couple seconds from impact I'm not sure I'd have time to react even if it did. I've tested it about a dozen times now. Works consistently the same way every time.

Someone tell me that any reasonable person would read that documentation and conclude what I'm experiencing what is described there. Acura wants me to believe that

sotiri

Tell them to prove its working ok with a 2006 Tech car.
Mine works great, so if they toned the CMBS back, then you should be able to see it with a 2006 car, find one and drive it.
Then drive another 2007.
See if there are differences, if not, then yours has something wrong, if there arent differences between your 2007 and another 2007, then its all software

SpicyMikey

So yours works more like the description on their site rather then what I described?

Anyone else have an 06 which is working like the literature? Similarly, anyone with an 07 finding that it works more like I described?

sotiri

yes my 06 works as described.
love it.

Chas2

My 06 works as described, and I have activated Level 2 more times than I care to admit.

lland

When the area rep is there, don't just show him, let him drive it and see how he likes only getting to stage 1 when impact appears imminient.

As I told you, when I had the CMBS problem, all kinds of warning lights and MID messages came on. Once fixed, it's been working as it should.

LL

VPescado

Better yet, put him in the driver seat, put a hundred dollar bill on the dash and tell him it's his if he can cause the CMBS to go to stage 2.

When he rear-ends someone, tell him you want a replacement car.

SpicyMikey

All good advice LOL

Actually, that's the frustrating thing. No one from corporate or even the service dept has been willing to test drive it yet. Only guys from the sales side have gotten in the car. They agree, it's not working.

Another interesting thing happened today. Not sure if this will be a clue for them. I had the ACC on and was cruising up a street at about 35 mph. A dump truck was going real slow in the same lane I was in. I saw him but couldn't switch lanes because a car was beside me. I decided to just let the ACC system take care of slowing down for me. What happened next surprised me. Instead of the ACC system doing a gentle braking to pace the truck, the CMBS system kicked into Stage 1. The difference was that it went to Stage 1 at about 200 feet rather then 2 feet like it normally does. This seems like what the manual says it should do and also what others describe. SOOOO, it seems that when the ACC is in control, the logic is working as expected (sort of). I backed off the truck, turned off teh ACC, and tried to intentionally approach the truck the same way again. This time it went back to it's normal routine -- no reaction.

I'm more and more convinced there's something wrong with the VSA module which is the master controller for CMBS. I don't think it's the radar gun or it's allignment, although, that's a place to start. Now I just have to convince Acura I'm not some idiot and should be taken serioiusly

sotiri

I do know this, the CMBS will not react as quickly if you are driving and close in on a car gently.
the system is designed to trigger when there is a 10mph or greater closing rate on the car in front.
So, for example, if I jackrabbit from a red light on a car in front of me, the system will react rather quickly, but if I just close in on him, the system may not react until its too late.
the system also seems to account for relative rates of speed.
That is, at 20MPH, if the car in front is doing 5mph, the system can 'see' how close you already were to the car, and based on your speed, and that distance, the system may react quickly or not.
Generally, if you are doing 65, and you come behind a car thats going 60, and you had some distance between, then its going to react slowly- but you are doing 70, and then slip in close behind someone doing 40, the system will react fast and hard.
I think the system reacts more quickly when doing 25, and the car in front is doing 10, than if you are doing 65, and the car in front is doing 50- IF you are keeping the space between vehicles of for every 10 MPH, you keep a car length.

SpicyMikey

Yes. That's what the manual says, and that's been my experience. However, when it does react, it's only within seconds of impact. That's the difference for me versus the manual and the experience of others.

I've done testing using a dozen scenerios; actual speed, relative speed, etc. It just won't react until the last second -- except for that situation this morning with the dump truck. it went to stage 1 with plenty of time to spare (200 feet) eventhough I was probably only barely closing on him at about 10mph. I was doing 40, I estimate he was doing around 25-30mph. The only difference I thought existed was the fact that ACC was active and in control. I've tested it with cars and large trucks. That never seemed to matter during my "controlled environment" testing

Chas2

This is actually consistent with my experiences. I have had the same thing happen cruising at 40, and having someone pull in front of me from a side street, the ACC does not brake, but goes into CMBS Stage 1.

If you are cruising at a very slow speed, and someone pulls in front of you, at a slow speed, there is a certain point where the ACC light braking mode will not slow you down fast enough, or enough, so that the cruise control can match speeds. At that point, the system will go into Stage 1 audible and visual alert to BRAKE.

On the other hand, if you are on the freeway, driving 70, and someone pulls in front of you at 60, you will get a firm brake to slow you down, reduction in throttle pressure, to allow you to keep pace with the slower object.

I do not know how the ACC/CMBS algorithm works, but cruising at 35, realize that the floor before ACC cuts off is 25 mph.

It would seem that if you are cruising at 35, and the garbage truck was going slower than 25, the ACC light braking scenario would never be successful, and so ACC would then switch into Stage 1 CMBS. There would be no way, based on the radar inputs being received, that the computer could match speeds on ACC, so ACC braking would no longer be an option, thus the Stage 1 CMBS because the closing speed is just too high.

ight braking and throttle reduction will not get you below 25, and still allow the ACC control your speed because ACC shuts off and goes into standby mode at 25 mph.

So it seems that this portion of the ACC/CMBS works as advertised. I cannot explain why you never get Stage II and of course, I would not want to test Stage III!

SpicyMikey

Interesting that it happens that way for you. By the way guys, thanks a lot for sharing your experiences with this feature. It's helped me conclude I have an issue (eventhough Acura still doesn't believe it)

I did a little more intentional testing today with ACC on. There indeed seems to be something very different in how/when CMBS kicks in if ACC is on and in control. I say "in control' because I tried to see if the decision making would be better with the ACC simply in standby mode. It didn't matter. The ACC had to be doing the gas for me to see this very different (and more correct) decision making by CMBS.

Looking at the wiring and interface schematic in the manual, it seems the VSA module is really the brains of the CMBS system. That's also where the brake actuator gets its instructions. The radar gun feeds ACC which in turn feeds VSA. The VSA also receives a bunch of other inputs from sensors around the car. ACC is much "dumber" and only cares about one thing -- the radar input.

By the way, on my car, if ACC starts to brake for me and goes below the 25mph threshold (as a result of the breaking) I just get a BEEP-BEEP-BEEP and the mid shows "ACC OFF". CMBS never kicks in. I need to jump in at that point

sotiri

ACC disengages at 20MPH.

SpicyMikey

My car won't engage ACC unless I'm at 25mph. The documentation says it works between 25mph and 90mph. I guess they feel if you're doing more then 90 you better not be on autopilot. Maybe it was different in the 06's.

The CMBS works when the car is at or abouve 9mph (15kph). Also, the manual says the close rate must be 9mph or greater for it to initiate stage 1.

I guess that means a safe test would be to drive slowly (10mph+) towards a parked car and see when Stage 1 triggers. I've tried it. For me it's the same thing. No reaction until I'm about to hit.

Chas2

Interesting, another variation!

I wonder if there are software changes within model years, and/or between model years, and/or wider tolerances than indicated in the manual.

My 2006 definitely disengages at 25 mph based on actual use in rural VA where the local cops are on the lookout for ticket bait. I have it on 25 at certain stretches in a small town. The car comes to a slight rise and before the ACC can tip in more throttle, the speed dips below 25, but definitely above 20, and ACC immediately disengages.

The 2006 manual also supports this mode of operation on page 241 and 248

2006 RL Page 241
LIMITATIONS

ACC does not work below 25 mph
(40 km/h). It cannot bring your
vehicle to a complete stop.

ACC will not sound a beeper or
display a message on the multiinformation
display to warn you of
vehicles going slower than 13 mph
(20 km/h) or vehicles that are
parked. In these cases, it is up to
you to maintain a safe distance by
using the brake pedal.

2006 RL Page 248
Automatic ACC Cancellation

When ACC is automatically
cancelled, the beeper sounds three
times, and an ACC OFF message
appears on the multi-information
display for 3 seconds.

Any of these conditions may cause
ACC to cancel:

-The vehicle speed decreases
below 22 mph (35 km/h).

-Poor weather (rain, fog, snow, etc.)

-When the radar sensor in the front
grill gets dirty.

-The vehicle ahead of you cannot
be detected.

-An abnormal tire condition is
detected, or the tires are skidding.

-Driving on a mountainous road, or
driving off road for extended
periods.

-When the VSA indicator comes on.

-When the ABS or VSA is activated.

-Abrupt steering wheel movement.

If ACC is cancelled by any these
conditions, wait until the condition
improves, then press the RES/
ACCEL button to restore ACC.
When you do this, the vehicle will
resume its set cruising speed.

If you turn the ignition switch to the
ACCESSORY (I) or the LOCK (0)
position after ACC was automatically
cancelled, the set speed is erased,
and you must enter it again (see
page 242).

Chas2

Spicey,

So I was thinking, your testing scenarios raise the hair on the back of my neck, and you may want to be careful how you describe these to the Acura people so you don't get accused of reckless driving, but the 06 manual states on page 241

"ACC will not sound a beeper or
display a message on the multiinformation
display to warn you of
vehicles going slower than 13 mph
(20 km/h) or vehicles that are
parked. In these cases, it is up to
you to maintain a safe distance by
using the brake pedal."

Was your ACC on when you were testing your CMBS? Would the ACC feature being on have anything to do with short CMBS response times?

SpicyMikey

Funny you should say that. They asked me how I was so certain it wasn't working. I told them I did these tests. Their comeback? Well, you shouldn't be doing that. LOL, I wouldn't have to if you would believe me the first time!!!!! Besides, that's besides the point. Idiotic response.

To answer your question; Yes, I've now discovered (quite by accident) that the CMBS system "logic" is different when the ACC is on versus when it's off . Not sure if that's supposed to be that way or it's another indication of a problem. It's much more responsive and quicker to trigger stage 1 if the RL is running under ACC control. Of course, 99% of the time the ACC just brakes to slow down and nothing happens. However, it seems that if the close rate is too fast (like when the car in front brakes suddenly), then the ACC throws a signal over to CMBS and it takes over. Again, in this scenerio with ACC on, my stage 1 triggers with PLENTY of warning (hundreds of feet). When the ACC is off, it's white knuckle time to see it go to stage 1

I'm actually going to enjoy taking this Acura guy for a "test drive" to show him what it takes to reach the "early" stage 1. I've gotten very good at it and know the limits on the car after doing a lot of testing. I can lockem up and bring the car to within a scary distance of the car in front of me. After the area reps blood returns to his head, I'll ask him if he still thinks it working normally

lland

"...and bring the car to within a scary distance of the car in front of me."

Scary for you or the driver in the car in front of you who sees you coming up quickly in his mirror.

When you're with the Acura guy, perhaps you should mention in passing something about the NHTSA.

LL

VPescado

Another interpretation: The Dump-Truck is a big target. If your radar is out of alignment it may be missing small cars in front of you, but even with a few degrees of beam pointing error, it can still get a return off of the huge truck. Note that this is also consistent with a delayed reaction for smaller vehicles - once you get close enough the angular error reduces to a small enough distance that you still manage to catch a bit of return off of the car in front of you.

sotiri

also depends on the metal content vs plastic content of the car in front of you.
A saturn may have less of a return than a garbage truck.

SpicyMikey

I agree it could be a clue. Certainly the first place they should start is to do an alignment. However, I have to say this; the ACC is working PERFECTLY. Having that icon on the MID (the one that shows the car image either outlined or solid) makes it very easy to track the boundaries of the radar. I see no horizontal problems (e.g. picking up a vehicle 200 feet ahead of me in the next lane). I suspect the Horizontal alignment is good. The vertical alignment might be out a bit but it won't be much if any.

I'm starting to zero in on two possibilities.
1) They changed the algorithms between 06 and 07 to make it less sensitive as a result of some complaints from customers that it was too "annoying". I've noticed everyone who says it's working well has an 06. Unfortunately for me, I want it to be "annoying" since this car was purchased 50% for my 16 year old "new driver" daughter to use. I work from home and don't need it much.

2) There's something wrong with the VSA module and/or one of it's sensors which is sending bad data into the program which makes the decisions.

lland

Personally, I don't find it annoying, I find it reassuring.

LL

Chas2

Agreed, very few falses with this, I agree with almost every activation, and it is very reassuring to have the back up sensor to the Mk 1 Mod 1 eyeball

lland

I can only remember getting a false activation once - stage 1. Down hill, slight curve to the left, big street sign at the bottom of the hill.

LL