hothonda

I'm up to here w/ discussions about Infiniti/Lexus/slow
sales/$39K purchases/ etc etc......

I want more power & handling- how to get it and whose got it!

Keep the threads coming on future issues/problems/
solutions & fixes ...but I want a little more ZIP!

Steve
Seattle

1HOT NSX

For additional power buy yourself a BMW M5, a MBZ E55 or even an Infinity M45. It is unlikely that we will have the aftermarket high performance goodies available for the RL. There are not enough cars on the road and not enough interest from the people who buy RLs - older, less performance oriented folks. In the handling department, you can't do much better than what we have without ruining the luxury part of the RLs equation. If you want extreme handling, then buy yourself a sports car.

WhitePearl_RL

Use the paddle mode and keep the car above 4800 rpm

I surprised a guy with a new 530i 6 speed. He had pulled up next to me and downshifted and took off, then slowed down, and repeated it again. I tried to pay no mind, but the third time I had the car in paddle mode and in the VTEC rpm range. Needless to say from 62mph the RL stayed about 3/4 of a car length ahead of the BMW. The BMW owner gave me a thumbs up as I took my exit home. This was the first time anything like this happened to me in the RL, but it was good to see that the car does have some good power in the higher rpm range.

My son told me that the V6 Accord enthusiasts are starting to swap the 3.5 into their cars. I don't think it will be long before a Turbo or Supercharger kit will be in testing.

The main thing about the RL is the amount of sophistication and class you get for the money. Sure, we could have purchased a CTS-V or Audi S4, but I did not like their interior feel and lack of options. Now when the STS-V arrives, that is going to be an interesting option for those that want luxury and power without spending the money for a E55 or 545i.

hothonda

Sheesh! Ask a simple question and what do you get... :-/

BTW are you a NSXCA member?...I am since it's beginning!

Steve
Seattle

hendjaz

And I believe Steve has or has had his share of personal NSX ownership and driving experience so he certainly knows his sports cars. His question I believe was asking for information/discussion on performance mods of the current RL and not what other cars, sports or otherwise, to consider.

With all of the computerization in the RL I would think that there could be a fairly simple software update that could modify the torque at least. Preferably such mod could be provided by Acura, perhaps as an extra cost accessory, so that there would be no warranty violations.

Rich in NC

Just curious. What do you mean by modifying the torque?

GIBSON6594

Start begging Hondata

1HOT NSX

I was just trying to state the facts. There is nothing available today that will substantially increase the horsepower of the RL and there are not that many four doors that have more than 300 HP and good handling from the factory.

No, I'm not an NSXCA member but I've looked at the site a couple of times. I bought my NSX new in 1999 and I still have it. I hope you still have yours - the RL/NSX is the perfect combination of cars to have in your garage IMHO.

ASP

Juice

LegendC

N2O on a high compression motor = not so good.

LegendC

But, if you could get like a wet 50 shot it could help the car out a ton. I have a 60 shot on my Legend Coupe and it makes over 1 second difference on my quarter mile time because it helps compensate for the weight of my car off the line. With AWD traction would not be an issue....except possibly grenading the driveshaft

Classic_martini

"Moving" the powerband around so the engine gets more "grunty" (probably at lower rpm) without spinning so much. More "kick", sooner. Conventional wisdom - modify the ecu, do a "big" physical mod, like supercharging (forced induction), or little physical mods - air intake, different exhaust, things like that.

Here are some reference links:

http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=15
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/f...05ht_comptech/
http://www.autocarparts.com/parts/Fo...-Kit/Comptech/
http://www.comptechusa.com/dyno.htm
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=680
http://www.modacar.com/products/Honda/Accord/MODAECT
http://blog.gtroc.com/dino/2005/06/amuse_fairlady.html
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1338431
http://www.hondata.com/vehicles.html

Fatalvenom

If you want to talk performance, lets discuss the supercharger from comptech. If I can get enough people to show interest I might be able to make this possible. I just need devotees!!!!

Rich in NC

For durability and the all important NVH cosiderations I think this engine is about as far as it is going to go. It already has about as much valve area as you are able to cram into the, realtively, small head area of a 3.5 liter motor. Same with forced induction with such a high compression ratio and not wanting to slide into the gas guzzler category.

The reason I asked about torque is you can always generate more torque by retuning but that will also take away from peak horsepower. I think Acura has done a fairly good job of balancing torque and horsepower considering they only have 3.5 liters to deal with and are severely restricted by NVH which is a major priority.

I don't see much being accomplised with ECU changes other than to get the A/F ratio dead on for each car which always will yeild small gains in horsepower.

A dual overhead cam engine could also help with more torque as exhaust valves could go to variable timing.

Classic_martini

Apologies "Rich". I know you're a seasoned driver, so wasn't trying to be a smarty pants. You have 20 years on me, apolgies if I appearded to respond without proper accord (chuckle).

As for engine wear/damage etc:

"Many people assume that running a supercharger, and hence added intake boost, puts added strain on an engine's engine parts. This is not necessarily true, because engine damage is almost always caused by RPM. Because a supercharger helps the engine produce more power at lower RPM, supercharged engines will make the same horsepower as their naturally aspirated counterparts at substantially lower engine RPM, where today's street engine's are designed to run (around 6000 RPM). Another concern some people have towards using a supercharger is that they think it will increase the engine's compression to the point that it will cause detonation inside the combusion chamber. Detonation exists when the combustion pressure is raised so high that the inlet charge ignites itself before the spark plug fires. When this happens, combustion takes place while the piston is still travelling up in the cylinder bore, which puts tremendous loads on the piston, rod, and crank. While it is true that a supercharged engine creates boost and increases the engine's compression, most supercharger kits include a boost timing retard chip that retards the engine's ignition timing under certain conditions to prevent detonation. With some kits, detonation is not a concern, in which case the kit will not include a boost timing retard chip"

This is can be done, with the engine already provided.

AmuseLegend

Handling...

Coilover from Amuse will solve that along with some wider wheels + sticky tires...

Rich in NC

Okay let's talk about the perceived panacea called superchargers. Most are so parasitic that the take away more power than they add at over 5000 rpm. That's why turbochargers are the weapon of choice on competiton engines. Superchargers ruin most torque management strategies for automatic transmissions. (Most high output automobiles pull (retard) timing during the shift) and I don't want to even think how it might affect the SH AWD.

An engine without superior head cooling will develop hot spots and can be a real problem for head warpage and pre ignition. Most engines don't have enough reserve cooling in either the engine or transmission to handle the extra load.

When I instructed at a Michigan roadcourse we got a lot of Camaros, Mustangs, and Corvettes with add on suprechargers. I never saw one of them that could stand up to the normal student learning schedule let alone some serious laps by a real driver.
As our cheif steward use to say. "Superchargers are great if you never really use them"
Didn't I mention a voided warranty?

ASP

Rich (aka the seasoned driver), ever work on a 99-04 Lightning or 03-04 Cobra?

Rich in NC

Neither of those are add on superchargers are they?

But we did have a Lightning out on test and tune night. It blew a heater hose and caused a fairly long delay as they tried to get the anti-freeze off of the track.

Also right to my point, the S/C Cobra went with a cast engine even though all Cobras before were aluminum blocks. Want to guess why?

ASP

Did you even answer the question?

Rich in NC

I gave you my experiences.

Did you answer my points?

The key point is neither of these systems is an add on. And the most current dropped an aluminum block to go back to a cast iron block. Nothing remotely like slapping a S/C on an already highly tuned engine.

BTW my name is Rich Moburg. What is yours?

ASP

I suppose you did. My question was driven from your negative statements regarding "superchargers". If you had experiences (I.e. hands-on) with the Eaton boosted Fords, you may have provided a different opinoin.

Points? I asked of you ever "worked on" one of the modern-day factory-blown modular-ford powered cars. You proceeded to go on about coolant on the track and the fact that the engine block in the Cobra is cast iron, not aluminum. Umm, well right.

Anything is possible with the right tuning. Don't be so stubborn and pessimistic. As far as add-on blowers and my experience; I had a LT1 powered car w/ 10.5:1 compression and 6# boost. No problem mixing high-compression with a supercharger provided you nail down the engine/fuel management. It can be done. Yes, I know . . . the block was cast-iron.

Ooo, that's just dangerous Mr. Moburg. . .


The old stable . . .

'03 Cobra - 450RWHP/480RWTQ


'01 Lightning - 12.80@108


'98 WS.6 - Just for looks.


'96 TA - 12.05@116

Rich in NC

So what is your name?

Why did Ford go back to a cast iron block for the Cobra S/C for a car that was already too front heavy with even the aluminum engine? I know do you?

Before I even dreamed of slapping a supercharger on any new application I would want to see reams of test data on the ENTIRE system and the fail points. Also would like to see HP after 5000 rpm as most supercharged systems drop like a rock after 5000 RPM.

ASP

Umm, stop asking for personal info and yes, I know why.

Rich in NC

Please share it with us why Ford went back to cast iron with a chassis is that was already nose heavy. It is certainly applicable as to why S/C an Acura may be a really bad idea.

I just wonder why people find they need to post without a name.

ASP

Who is "us"? Seems like you are the only one who cares.

Yes the iron block was brought back to add bottom-end strength to prevent damage from all the additional power and more importantly torque the blower would make. Good for Ford. They were smart in making that call. Just as they were for using forged guts.

You have to realize, if not agree, that there are many, many successful high-compression, aluminum block, aftermarket supercharged applications out there. It's all about the associated engine/fuel management.

All the 10-second Vortech LS1s come to mind. What about a Comptech NSXs?

Bottom-line . . . it can be done and you do not have to participate.

I'm taking my ball back and I'm going home!

Classic_martini

Croft. Nicholas, Croft.

My current "daily driver" is an 8 year old Eunos 800m. (Mazda Millenia) With over 200kms on the clock (that's 125k miles), and it has a... wait fot it... SUPERCHARGER.

Admittedly factory fitted. But it is smooth as silk. 2.3 litres. Miller Cycle. As opposed to Otto cycle. But getting into details goes over most people's heads.

The bit that everyone gets is the 219HP, and the economy of a 2.3 engine. Best of both worlds - but of course I - like every other car owner - am biased.


Zoom, zoom, zoom.

If you really want to know more, (unlikely, old dog, new tricks I guess) have a read here:


http://www.rx7uknet.dircon.co.uk/binhist/miller.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/M...Combustion.htm

Classic_martini

That's the point - more torque at the lower end of the rpm's (more kick off). Honda engines are already very "revvy" - their joy kicks in "later". Hence turbo charging is kinda adding late kick to late kick - if you catch my drift?

Rich in NC

On the Miller Engine:

"the compression stroke of the Miller-cycle engine is shortened which results in a low compression ratio"

"Cool Intake Charge Due to the late closing of the intake valves (reduced compression ratio), less heat is added to the intake charge by the piston during this stroke. The loss in thermal efficiency of reduced compression ratio from 10 to 8:1 is only about six percent"

"This modified (Otto) valve timing allows around 50 percent of the exhaust gases to be expelled "for free" (Special exhaust valve timing)

"2 intercoolers" 2!

Comparing the brilliant Miller design engine to a bolt on (slapped on?) supercharger on an Acura is like comparing apples to oranges.

And BTW the Acura already makes as much or more HP per liter as the Miller engine.

Sorry but your example is exactly what I have been trying to tell you guys. And we haven't even got into what will happen to the running gear. That is a huge unknown.

Rich in NC

And the more torque may tear the bottom end right out of the Acura engine. That is what testing told Ford about their 4.6 liter aluminum block engine. Which was less stressed (power per liter) than the Acura is currently is.

Ford = 325 HP at 4.6 liters
Acura = 300 HP at 3.5 liters.

Further your chances of fitting a supercharger that would even be of any benefit past around 4500 RPM are extremely doubtful. Not a very good trade off to me.

spacklebucket

I don't know about all of the technical ins and outs of this. I do know that I had a Subaru that made 300HP and 300Lbs/ft of torque from a turbocharged 2.5 liter, 4-banger. That motor got me somewhere in the neighborhood of 12mpg average. It was fast....and fun. The car weighed just about 3klbs and handled like it was on rails.
The RL is just not that kind of car to me. I'm not sure the words "supercharger" and "wood-grain dash" should be used when talking about the same car. It would be nice if the car had some better low-end torque. I certainly have noticed the lack of it. Even that 300HP is a little hard to find at 6000rpm. I think Honda/Acura engineers found a good balance of power and fuel economy. There are times that I wish the RL had more power, but there are MORE times that I'm really happy with the better mileage. I'm just not sure this car is the right platform for forced induction. If Honda/Acura made a turbo/supercharged one available down the road, I would think it was cool. I still might not buy it. (without the wood-grain dash trim, I would hope)
This is a delicately-balanced vehicle. Its a bit sporty (nice brakes), a bit luxurious (interior), a bit utilitarian (AWD), a bit stylin' while being low-key and very tech-savvy. Admittedly, I changed the wheels/tires to push it more toward the sporty end, but I'm not sure how far that envelope can be pushed. I'm pretty happy with this car the way it is. It doesn't seem worth it to me to try to force induction on this vehicle. I would think that trying to get the ECU/computer in THIS car to be OK with new timing/fuel maps and A/F ratios would be way more hassle than its worth. It'd be kinda like putting a big hot tub on the front lawn of your brand-new Victorian. Is it cool? Sure it is. Is it your house and can you do whatever you want with it? Sure you can. All things considered, does it really belong there?
........

Classic_martini

Sorry, I don't really see your point. (Chuckle).

Ok. Mr Rich. You've thrown down the gauntlet. What would YOU do to improve the performance on the car? I'm talking about what's possible - not "oh if they only added dohc" (at the Hodnda factory) or somesuch?
Cheers.

Classic_martini

No shit, Sherlock.

Rich in NC

Just wondered why you brought up the miller as a great example of supercharging.

Rich in NC

I think the car is just fine as is. Each design has a purpose.

If you want something really quick mod up one of your old Falcons or get a 6 speed Monaro CV8Z.

But as long as Acura is sticking with a 3.5 liter engine already at 300 HP I would leave well enough alone.

Particularly since it has a SH AWD which is a fairly unknown quanity.

hothonda

So what are the real world owners in Japan doing to their
'05+ RL's/Legends to put a little more "Zip" into their cars.

Let's talk to our RL performance, guys!

ASP

Amuse -> http://www.amuseusa.com/Default.aspx...ID=54&NewsID=8
- Exhaust, suspension, wheels, body kit, ECU upgrade.

Doov -> http://www.doov.co.jp/contents/lineu...d05/index.html
- Exhaust, suspension, wheels, front lip, rear spoiler, grounding kit.

Mugen -> http://www.mugen-power.com/street/LEGEND0410/index.html
- Exhaust, suspension, wheels, body kit.

Spoon -> http://www.spoon.jp/jp/
- Nothing listed yet . . .

Bulletproof Automotive -> http://www.bulletproofautomotive.com...lt.php?make=27
- Importer of Amuse and Mugen.

Magazine Scans link -> https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=680

WhitePearl_RL

My son was looking at the Amuse coilovers for when he gets the RL from me. He had a set of Bilstein coilovers on his Passat, but the ride was a little too stiff for my tastes. Anyone here order or actually put these aftermarket items on their RL yet?

Classic_martini

I concur. Stock is plenty fast.

And, can also see why some would want to "tinker" a bit.

This is not backyard "brute force" tinkering, takes more finesse with such a complex vehicle. The bellcurve has moved further along, better tuners have the appropriate tuning approach.

I used the Milly/Supercharger as a longevity reference.
And the milly weighs MORE then the RL. Hence sharing my *experience* (from the real world) with a havy car/small 6 engine and the increased torque factor at low revs. - Which is the spirit of this thread - PERFORMANCE
This is an 11 year old design by crikey.

Fatalvenom

Well Ford went back to the cast-iron block because they knew the capabilities of that 4.6 DOHC. You can take a 03-04 Cobra and spend less than 3,000 and have almost 750HP. Ford knows that the people that buy these cars are about 85% more likely to mod these cars than someone who is buying, say, a GT Stang, sure there are alot of modded GT's, but compare it to the number of modded Cobras!!!

A Jaguar S-Type R has a Supercharger on its 4.2 AJ V8, and let me tell you from first hand experience......that bitch isnt a slouch at 5000rpm+.

As to you saying you cant do it because of a warranty......Steeda, Saleen, and Roush all Supercharge their top of the line cars and they have a full warranty from FORD, thanks to the Technology Transfer Program. Ford shares all of their ECU codes with these companies to help them make the cars faster, but they also do it so Ford can warranty these cars. There is no reason Comptech couldnt accomplish the same thing if they are given AHMC's blessing.

And the aluminum block overheating.........hahaha, thats why they invented an Intercooler!!!!!!!! If you run too much boost with too high of a compression, you will create detonation, everyone who knows anything about motors knows that. But Intercooling cools the incoming air charge, thus with the proper air/fuel/spark settings you can achieve a good gain in HP with PROPER TUNING, and suffer NO ENGINE DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!

Oh and Ford changed the Cobra over to a cast-iron block not because the aluminum was too heat sensitive, its because it wasnt strong enough to withstand the amount of power the engine could produce.

Thanks for your time,

Your local Mustang freak and RL lover =)