Honda/Acura think outside the box. Look at the Ridgeline. That thing is so different from any other pick-up truck that it almost re-defines the category. But the problem with this type of 'sucess' is Honda/Acura wants people to understand it and adapt to it. They constantly try to make a square peg (the public) fit into a round hole (their perspective). Sometimes, like in the case of the TL or the new Civic, it works... sometimes like the RL or Ridgeline it doesn't quite work.

I honestly believe Honda/Acura products are the best engineered cars on the planet. Selling this product, owning and driving it I firmly believe this. But it takes people to understand this and learn this in order to get behind it and most people just don't want to go that far.

For people who own the RL... what is your favorite thing about the car? Is it the brand or the product you enjoy most?

 

I'm not brand happy, although I did initially consider the Mercedes E class. I bought the RL because:

1) it was roughly the size of my CL. I didn't want a huge car. If I did, I would have just gotten an SUV.

2) Acuras tend to be reliable. I didn't have any major problems with my previous 3 Acuras (except the CL Type S and the transmission).

3) SH-AWD. It's a damn compelling work of engineering. Besides, I did NOT want another FWD car, and every sedan Acura has ever made (or Honda, for that matter) is FWD except for the RL.

4) Lots of standard features! I actually got mad at the BMW salesman when he said I would have to pay an extra $1500 for a CD changer that goes in the glove compartment!

5) I have a long-standing relationship with my local Acura dealership, which also happens to be within walking distance of my home. They gave me more on my CL then I deserved.

 

Actually, the Infiniti M was less than 100 units behind the GS this past month and has stayed relatively close (>500 units) with the GS since their releases.

Personally, I believe Infiniti is an even more difficult sell than Acura.
Infiniti has historically been behind Lexus and Acura as far as sales numbers go.
More people are more familiar with the Acura name than Infiniti.
It's not until recently, with the success of the G, that Infiniti has really picked up.

So why does the M sell better than the RL? The reason has to be the product itself. The article sums up the reasons perfectly.

 

Acura should tell their salesmen this.
When I went car shopping, they constantly referred to the TL/MDX as their bread and butter, while the RL is their flagship.

 

well, flagship or no flagship, the RL IS the top Acura mass-production model.

From Merriam-Webster: Flagship - 2 : the finest, largest, or most important one of a series, network, or chain

In the auto world, "most important" doesn't really apply if you think in terms of sales numbers, otherwise the 3-series would be bmw's flagship. I think it matters more concerning "image" in the car world.

The RL is the largest sedan, the finest (quality-wise), and most important in terms of tech breakthroughs (SH-AWD, traffic-navi, first production Honda/Acura to reach 300hp).

So whether Acura or anyone else wants to call the RL a "flagship" or not, for all intents and purposes it IS the current flagship model.

 

The Infiniiti M's sales might be close to the Lexus GS, but the GS still outsells it even though it is clearly the inferior car. And I think that the M's sales will start to decrease sooner than the GS's will, especially in the 2007 model year.

The fact that fewer people have heard of Infiniti might actually help it. It's better to be a relative unknown that to be known as a maker of "value luxury" cars.

 

The RL is the showcase for the ACE body structure, for SH-AWD, for XM Traffic, for the Bose noise cancellation system, the swivelling headlights, as well as the extensive use of aluminium now that the NSX is dead. Not to mention it is the 'most powerful' engine Honda/Acura produces for their non-race cars.

 

right...the RL IS the flagship model for the acura lineup, much like the Avalon is Toyota's flagship, the Azera is Hyundai's, the Accord Hybrid is honda's, and etc. etc.

Just because others in the premium segment has a more expensive/bigger flagship doesn't mean jack concerning the RL. Same reason it doesn't mean jack concerning the Avalon or the Azera. Volvo's flagship is the S80, a direct competitor to the RL.

I don't know WHY Acura doesn't explicity call the RL a flagship anymore (maybe they are preparing something???), but either way, it IS the current flagship no matter which way you slice it.

 

That's where the brand image, prestige, cachet, whatever you want to call it, comes in.
Lexus > Infiniti, bigger name, greater dealership network, better customer service, therefore GS sales > M sales.
But for the M to be consistetly nipping at the heels of the GS is definitely an accomplishment for Infiniti and the M.

Also, I wouldn't say the GS is inferior to the M. They both cater to slightly different markets (comfort/luxury vs. sport).

 

I don't doubt that sales will slow down eventually, but I think this will be for the overall market and the GS and M sales will continue to be a close contest, lower sales volume or not.

I haven't seen ANY GS commercials since the spy-chick one. But I see tons and tons of Infiniti commercials in both magazines and TV. I think Infiniti is doing a good job of getting a premium "image" established. And with good exposure and good products, Infiniti is definitely trying to earn "prestige".

 

Great thread! And I think the article was dead on, describing many of the same points so frequently discussed on this board.

Static, your idea is not bad except....as a TL owner, I simply can't see a 4-cylinder turbo . No way, man! No one would buy that! We TL owners DO hope for a Type-S 3.5 L V6, though.... especially if it's done right.

Sorry, back on topic...

I didn't realize that the RL's size and layout pretty much preclude a V8 and RWD. So Acura is stuck with this puppy until the next gen, which I hope will not be as long as it took to update the 1G RL.

 

Interesting thread. I wasn't meaning to say, 'Acura, no matter what', like the Ford and Chev and V8 people might. I meant that I support Acura and like how they approach their line differently and not just trying to copy other lines.

Unfortunately I feel Honda has been having to stray from their core goal of simplicity and efficiency with what the market demands now to increase sales; read, trucks, SUVs, v8?.

I think the future is gonna come back to Honda's way of thinking for smarter cars, more efficient, and more green. It's a very competitive market, and the domestics are almost out of it already.

 

I think this is an "inflexible" way for a flexible company like Honda to do business though. As flexible as Honda WAS a decade ago, with the changing market trends and other rivals being less "conservative" in R&D, Honda now looks very stagnant compared to most other successful competitors.

For example, Honda's reluctance to develop a volume rwd platform or mass production v8 engine is synonymous with GM's reluctance to move away from pushrod engines and 4-speed automatics.

A flexible manufacturer will be able to not only predict the market, but adapt to the market in order to capitalize on the current trends.

take for example: hybrids. Honda was the first to put a production hybrid on the market, but toyota/lexus is capitalizing on this...they have many more hybrid models on the market and are continuing to add more hybrid models...while "OH SO GREEN" Honda only has 3 hybrids (Accord, Civic, Insight) that don't get nearly the same fanfare as toyota models, and no new honda hybrids (RL, TL?) are in sight.

And the truck/suv market...both Toyota and Nissan have been making inroads into the full size v8 REDNECK truck market because they had platforms and engines capable of supporting such a truck. This is flexibility...having the resources to give the market what it wants ASAP.

This also applies to the RL's problems. Maybe Lex and Inf were able to see where the midsize lux segment was heading (BMW wannabe-ness), so they were able to develop "round" models that fit into "round" holes. They had these resources and therefore the flexibility to do so. Honda never developed these resources...not because they didn't have the $$$, but because they deemed it not important.

Honda can continue to be conservative and operate traditionally, waiting for market trends to align to its products. Sometimes even a blind squirrel gets a nut.

But I don't think this is the way they are giong. I think they are already working hard to catch up and with the next generation of cars (which already started with the Civic/SI), we'll see more and more models that the market wants. And if any company can catch up to its market rivals in just one generation of cars, honda can...if they choose to.

 

[QUOTE=neuronbob]Great thread! And I think the article was dead on, describing many of the same points so frequently discussed on this board.

Static, your idea is not bad except....as a TL owner, I simply can't see a 4-cylinder turbo . No way, man! No one would buy that! We TL owners DO hope for a Type-S 3.5 L V6, though.... especially if it's done right.


I would be happy with 2 engine choices for the TL and RL, and even the MDX.

For example for the TL: a standard powerful engine choice (around 270hp), and then an unnecessarily-absolutely-not-needed engine choice (330hp). Again, unfortunately the car is limited by its FWD configuration. Add SH-AWD though, and that car would be like WHOA.

Same with RL: a standard commonsense powerful engine (around 290hp), and another unnecessarily-absolutely-not-needed engine choice (350hp). Again, the platform limits the size and layout of engines that would fit though.

that's what's gonna raise people's eyebrows (and Acura's image)...by offering more and more of what people don't need.

 

I've heard from many people that when Mr. Honda died the company began to have design problems and other issues. Maybe the new guy can do something about it. All the stuff we are seeing in the cars now was planned out a long time ago. Let's hope that the new Civic and TL guys win out over the rest of them.

Remake the NSX as a supercar, bring out a new RSX that kills everything and is different than the Civic, and bring back a CL as a mid-priced sporty car. I think the RDX is a step in the right direction... and using a turbo.

 

As a TL owner, I appreciate all the RL has to offer. It also has a cerain stealth factor that I like. But I think Acura's relative lack of success can be attributed to Honda's engineering first culture that believes a 6 cyl will do when a 8 cyl is what's required in the prestige stakes. Their play it safe styling sure doesnt help either.

Dont even talk about the dealerships. I bought my TL at one that made you pay for your coffee, and looked worse than the Honda dealereship we bought our Odyssey from. We test drove the Lexus IS before settling on the TL. You knew the dealership was selling a luxury car brand as soon as you stepped in.

 

They make you pay for your own coffee?

 

I don't think Acura as a whole is unsuccessful. Recall: The TL and MDX are selling like hotcakes. It's only the RL, as nice as car as it is, that is lagging. It's unfortunate, because it's a great car. Again, Acura needs to decide what luxury is, and if they want to play in the Lexus league, they need to doll up the RL somewhat. I note: Acura CERTAINLY knows what people want in the near-luxury market--again, witness the runaway success of the TL.

Yet another example of why Honda/Acura corporate need to evaluate dealers IN PERSON, and swoop down upon dealers like that one like the angel of death.....

My dealer offers free wireless internet, free coffee/water/beverages and has an Enterprise rental station inside the dealership. I just mention this as a counterpoint to your experience.

 

I think part of the reason why the TL and MDX are so popular is because they were designed at Honda's studio in California, where Acura could have some input. I think the RDX will also sell well because it was designed in the US. It's easier to give customers what they want if you have closer contact with the culture. That's why VW recently made its engineers live in the US for 6 months. Anyway, as I have mentioned before, the Honda Legend was designed in Japan, engineered in Japan, manufactured in Japan to be sold mostly in Japan and then Honda "threw it over the wall" to Acura in North America and said, "Here's your new RL. Deal with it."

I agree with you on the dealers though. Paying for coffee is unacceptable.

 

Good point. I basically consider the TL an American car--designed and built here. The only things Japanese about it are the transmission and where the corporate headquarters is located.

It was probably too expensive for Honda to recommend anything other than "here's your RL, deal with it!" to Acura in this country. I don't even want to imagine how much it would cost for Honda to develop another FR, V8 platform with sales number like the RL's.

 

I think Honda's going to have to create a FR, V8 platform if they really want to sell pickup trucks in the US. They could then take that plaform (or a variation) and make a full-size SUV and a full-size flagship sedan for Acura.

Of course, Hond a might decide that it isn't worth the effort to do all that for one market and put their efforts into jet engines instead.

 

yeah, but could you imagine what it cost them to develop a RR v6 platform that couldn't be used on any other model and sold in even worse numbers and lost money on every single sale?

Honda did that so they can have a halo car.

Or a FR platform used ONLY for a 2 seat roadster that sells in very low volumes relative to most honda models?

Honda did that also so they could have an anniversary car.

a FR platform and a V8 could potentially be used in more than one model, and unlike the s2000 and NSX platforms, it could be simpler to update for future generations of cars.

Honda CAN do this so they could have a flagship that they'd be proud of enough to call it a "FLAGSHIP".

I think the sales-opportunities lost due to lack of v8/rwd, not to mention the image and prestige conceded to rivals Lexus and Infiniti, are costing them more than it would have cost them to develop a FR/v8 platform.

 

I think that Honda will eventually be forced to do what mrdeeno is saying. For all we now, they might be doing it now. If you go back to the debut of the current Acura RL at the North American Auto Show in 2004, Acura spokespeople were emphatic in their statements that the RL is not a flagship. To me, that implies that Big Papa is coming.

 

I have a gut feeling that all their research into Asimo and jet engines is going to pay off...

they're gonna introduce a jet powered car that can transform into a robot that can talk and tell you what the current traffic conditions are, while also getting 60 miles to the gallon!

 

The Honda Transformer? The Honda Optimus Prime?

 

NO!

You're not allowed to call it a "Transformer" due to copyright infringement!

Maybe "HondAcura Accordimo Type-J" or something. And that's just his first name.

 

mrdeeno also has a good point. The NSX was a great halo car, as is the Honda S2000. But we TL owners need a big brother to look up to, a halo car that has all that unneccessary stuff (as someone said earlier in this thread). A FR V8 RL designed from a new platform that could be shared with the Ridgeline, MDX, and Pilot (which are all selling pretty well) could be the ticket. And the V8 has to be (as I keep saying) a Hondarrific, ULEV low-end torque monster that helps the car get 30 mpg freeway. I know Honda can do it--in my V6 TL, I can drive 80 mph with the AC on and STILL get 30 mpg on a long freeway trip.

Is anyone from Honda of America listening to us?

 

If the 50 grand RL isn't selling as well as thought I doubt an 80 grand RL will sell better. I think Honda honchos have said as much.

 

Again, Acura needs to build its brand. They need to supplement their "value" image with a luxury image. Value-oriented buyers are going to expect EVERYTHING from a car that costs over $40K. That's part of the reason why Acura customers are complaining that the RL is too small, even though it is roughly the same size as its competiton. The question is whether Acura corporate can build themselves into a luxury brand through advertising, product placements, etc. Also, they need to clamp down on some of the dealerships. Hell, hire some Cadillac salesmen! At least they have experience with luxury cars and a luxury level of customer service.

 

But you're arguing pure pricing, not product. It's not the price that's turning people off, it's the way the car is sold...ONE WAY.

If a $50-55k RL CAN compete feature for feature, with a $55-65k BMW/MB/Audi/Lex/Inf, then I think it would probably sell very well.

but my entire criticism is that the current $50k RL does NOT compete feature for feature, content for content, or option for option with the products offered by the other makes.

and when I say "compete", I don't mean AWD v6 RL vs. AWD v6 GS...I mean competing overall: engine choices, drive configurations, package options, trim configurations, etc. Make EXCESS optional.

It doesn't have to be exactly the same as the competition, but it should be close by at least modeling the way the others are sold.


This is what I mean when i say that the RL is not in the same "race" as the others...it's going off on its own value-oriented, one-size-fits-all way while the others are duking it out for sales, not to mention prestige, by imitating the top prestige-dogs in the race.

 

And the non-value oriented buyers (which is what Acura needs) are going to expect to at least have a CHOICE of getting EVERYTHING, or some of EVERYTHING, or none of EVERYTHING, from a car that costs over $40k.

One-size-fits-all doesn't actually fit that many people...especially in America where 60% of the population is overweight.

 

I personally bought the RL because it included everything I wanted. However, I do see where the lack of choices can alienate some customers. Adding features a la carte would be interesting.

Back to the RL, I really think Acura should have never given the RL an MSRP of $49K, especially when the invoice was closer to $43K. They should have set the MSRP equal to the base price of a Lexus GS 300 w/AWD. They also should have started with cheaper leases.

Overall, I still think the RL is to Acura what the Phaeton is to VW. The problem isn't the cars, it's the public's brand perception.

 

The argument about 'choices' doesn't fly because the TL is 'loaded' and there aren't really any choices (okay Navi for 2k) but that car sells well. Same with the TSX. The TL is a great value. Is the RL a value? I find it very difficult to justify the price/feature difference of a TL vs. RL. Maybe some people don't want to pay for certain things on the RL but really I don't see this as an issue. I think the V6 issue is the biggest factor in many ways.

And Acura is always described as a 'near luxury' brand. And it doesn't help that Honda ALWAYS associates itself with Acura. Until this model year it didn't say 'Acura' on the glass. You shell out 50k for a car and it says 'Honda' on it. I think little things like this add up.

Until Acura can suceed at the 50k level I don't see them going higher. It might not be about the money but it's always about the money in a way.

 

That's where I disagree. The money is not the cause of the problem, but the effect. People aren't willing to pay $50k for the RL BECAUSE of something.

This something, IMO, is the lack of options (which in turn is partially caused by lack of a v8 and rwd platform).

You bring up the TL, but this is the difference between a $35k car and a $50k car.

A $35k car is in the reach of many more buyers, so value is more important.

But at $50k+, it's a different ball game. Buyers who move UP the scale want MORE options, not less. Too many options and it'll cost the manufacturer (BMW/MB/Audi). Too few and it'll cost the manufacturer in appeal (RL).

There are much FEWER people who are going to spend $50k for a car...so a manufacturer has to make its appeal as WIDESPREAD as possible to maximize the number of buyers it appeals to.

Since a car can't be both v6 and v8, or both rwd and awd, or both very sporty and very non-sporty, or both very full of tech gadges and void of tech gadgets, a manufacturer has to offer some forms of engine, trim, or package choices in order to please everyone willing to spend $50k on a car...or more than $50k, or less than $50k.

Since the RL comes ONE way, it doesn't appeal to people who want a really sporty handling car. It doesn't apeal to people who want a very luxurious ride. It doesn't appeal to people who want a v8. It doesn't appeal to people willing to sacrifice gadgets for a faster car. It doesn't appeal to peopel who want some tech packages but find paying for others a waste. Its reach is MUCH narrower than any of the other rivals.

There ARE limitations in EVERY product available out there, but the RL seems to take the cake when it comes to limitations because there are NO options except for the recently introduced tech package. this is the cause of people not wanting to spend $50k on the RL. The $50k pricetag only turns off people who can't afford it....it's the other reasons that turn off people who can afford it and these people are the ones that count towards sales numbers of OTHER manufacturers.

 

Main reasons I personally hear why people don't choose RL

~ BMW lease is cheaper
~ No V8
~ Styling is uninspiring
~ It's not a 'BMW' or 'Mercedes'
~ Can't get performance package (aside from ASPEC)
~ Haven't heard much about it/seen one anyplace on the road
~ Ride is too bumpy
~ Seems a lot of money for a 'Honda'
~ Doesn't have some of the options other cars have (6 speed auto, for example)
~ Small trunk

I'm sure if Honda started the RL out at 45k and let you add Navi and a few other things they would sell more. How many more... I don't know. But you make a very valid point.

Speaking of the $35,000 customer vs. $50,000 one... Many $50,000 customers don't get treated the way they think they should at your average podunk Acura dealership... like paying for coffee.

 

Is the Technology Package a step in the right direction? If the RL could come more than one way, with multiple packages, what would they be?

 

Acura should have started out with the lease special. Now, they should decrease the monthly payment by $100.

I wonder if there is a way to add a turbo to the current engine to increase output? If so, maybe that could be an option?

If a "real" sport package were available, what would it include?

What other options could help, other than a V8 or a 6 speed auto?

 

The car cannot be reworked. Only minor tweaks can be made to it like:

~ Larger standard wheels
~ Supercharger
~ 6 speed automatic
~ Install hard drive in audio system for music, etc.
~ Offer cheaper leases
~ Decontent the RL to offer lesser models
~ Offer racier colors/interiors
~ Offer 'smart key' that automatically unlocks/lock doors, etc...
~ Break out Tech Package for individual systems
~ Factory window tinting
~ Add features like auto wipers/cooled seats/rear stereo

Just some ideas that could happen.

 

Cooled seats would be great!

Cheaper leases really need to happen.

Larger standard wheels and performance tires would be beneficial.

What would a supercharger do?

Don't know if a 6 speed automatic could happen.

I know the upcoming Lexus LS has a hard drive, but I'm not sure what advantage that have. Does the LS also have a high speed USB 2.0 so you can attach your external hard drive to the internal hard drive and copy files? Could you also transfer video? In what format?

 

A supercharger would produce tons of power... like the Mercedes 'Kompressor' and would be a worthy performance mod for the RL.

A hard drive would geek out some people. Being able to store 40 gigs of tunes is way cool. If you add video and screens to the back then you can see where that would go.

I grew up in DC. Nice place.