jhr3uva90

http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...&page_number=1

It would be nice to get some feedback from actual RL drivers. What do you all think about this article?

I agree that the RL could benefit from a V8 option, but I think the article underestimates the power of branding. Personally, I think that the image of Acura as a maker of "near luxury" ($30K - $40K) vehicles is so ingrained in customers minds that NO Acura costing $50K will sell well. After all, in the the American luxury car driver's mind, why pay that much for a car if everyone doesn't recognize that it is an expensive car? Personally, I think that's the reason why people acquire BMW 525i's, as underpowered and overrated as they are. And don't get me started on the Mercedes E-class. . .

Anyway, this car includes an interesting history of the Legend/RL and presents some valid points from the car enthusiast's perspective. Enjoy!

mrdeeno

i swear to god, I think they read all the stuff I've been complaining about (and getting labeled a 'hater' for).


Lack of options/trims
Lack of v8 and the "halo" effect of a v8 rather tahn pure sales #s
Dealer ignorance with SH-AWD
SH-AWD not really "super" to the average buyer
Global platform limitations (no rwd possible)

and probably most important of all: WHEELS TOO SMALL and BORING

I think that article sums up all the problems that the current RL has that affects sales, but also brings up the good points of the RL (which I've always agreed with).

These parts especially stood out in how they aligned with what I thought:

I've always said that Acura gives shoppers too much credit. And as for "less is more", I also apply to "less $$ for more car" also which is another way of saying it offers more "value". Honda should focus on value as a selling point...not Acura.


that's what I said before about options/trims/engines and the ability to "customize" a car to a certain extent rather than trying to find a middle ground in the $50k range...it works with the TL, but at $50k+ it ain't gonna work!

jhr3uva90

True, but I think a lot of it is plain old fashioned brand cachet. You can't be known for value and glamour. The reason why Mercedes has be hesitant to bring to the A class to the U.S., for example, is because they are afraid it will dilute the brand. Acura, on the other hand, is hesitant to kill off the RSX/Integra, which has been diluting the brand for about 15 years now.

I hate to sound like a cynic, but I don't think ANY Acura over $45K will sell as well as the competition, mainly because Acura (which is, ironically, a marketing organization) has not built up the brand name. Acura is like Timex, not Rolex.

Here's another prediction, one that has nothing to do with the RL: I think sales of the Infiniti M will start to decrease slightly starting in April 2006 and the 2007 model will sell less than the 2006 model. Why? Because right now, early adopters are still buying the M based on its well-deserved, wonderful reviews. Once the early adopters are tapped out, the traditional luxury-car drivers will ignore the car because it doesn't have the big brand-name pull like Mercedes or Lexus.

Rob L

The less than stellar sales is simply a product of the prestige factor. Anyone who tries to act like it is a the mising V8 or trim levels or the lamest of all (quoted from above)-

"and probably most important of all: WHEELS TOO SMALL and BORING"


as the main reasons why is kidding themselves.

I think the problem is those who try and use those as the reasons why came from cheap cars or something so this is their first real car outside of civics and stuff they rcied up so they don't grasp the concept most do not go and buy luxury sedans based on the fuggin wheel package.

Yes, lack of v8 probably took away some possible sales as did the lack of option packages but the FACT is the prestige factor associated with luxury cars is the biggest reason why this car hasn't sold well. Anyone who disagrees needs to get a grip of reality and out of their "car enthusiast" mentality.

I AM POSITIVE that if this car was a Lexus or BMW or MB it'd be selling as well as any car in its class.

boring and small wheels as an important reason...that's a laugher.

ilas

Indeed, over the long run the prestige factor will also hurt M sales, for sure. Regardless of the reviews, Infiniti simply also do not have the pull that Lexus, MB, and BMW have in terms of the NAME and will continue to have for decades into the future. I think we all have beaten to death the fact that luxury buyers go for the name first and features second.

Face it, it is not the way the RL is packaged, it is basically the name of the manufacturer. Acura/Honda recognize that in their latest statements. They can build brand image, but they will not in my lifetime get to the point of having the image currently held by Lexus/MB/BMW. For me that matters squat, but I am certainly not the norm.

loulinjai

Although I dont own a RL, i agree with you guys
In some ways, Acura is too stubborn, RL is far too small for a flagship sedan.
Acura will NEVER go RWD (except in NSX ans Honda S2K), which is kinda sad.
I do see a V8 coming out, I mean...they have to, in order to respond with the market.
Theres reasons why consumers pay a heck lot more for other for other brands.

It will be nice to see other features on the concept to ACTUALLY make it to production, then we're talking. It just gets everyones hopes up, then everyone puts deposits onto the car, and when the production car comes out...its like "oh...."

jhr3uva90

I agree with the prestige factor, obviously. Look at the Lexus GS. How many competitions has it won versus the Infiniti M or the Acura RL? Yet the Lexus GS easily outsells the Infiniti and the RL's sales aren't even close. Why? Because the general luxury car driver cares about IMAGE. Another example would be the BMW 525i. It doesn't have a V8, hell it barely has a 6-cylinder engine. The car is woefully underpowered for its size, yet it sells well. Why? Because it's a BMW, and there are some folks out there who are poseurs who will take the car because it's a mid-sized BMW and that's it.

Ironically, Acura exists solely for marketing, yet they don't seem to be very effective at it. Rather, they don't seem to be very effective at UPSCALE marketing. Walking into an Acura dealership should be like walking into Tiffany's, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Acura should bring the hammer down on the dealerships wherever possible to make that happen.

Also, Acura should NOT have any cars that cost less than regular Hondas. Kill the RSX! That car is diluting the brand.

Lexus is sponsoring a series on PBS called "Road to Innovation." I'm sure they will discuss hybrid technology at some point in that series. Why doesn't Acura do something similar and have the series mention SH-AWD at some point? Is AWD more complicated to explain than hybrid technology?

Is Acura content to simply be a "near-luxury" brand? I'm starting to think so. They are pushing for separate design studios and engineering, but what are they doing to uplift the image? That's the important part of marketing, in my opinion.

As a side note, yup, the wheels are small and boring. I'm not into shiny rims, but it would be nice if the wheels didn't look like plastic. And a car in that price range does deserve 18 inch wheels. That's being said, the wheels are a minor part of the big picture.

jhr3uva90

The RL is NOT a flagship! Find me one example of Acura referring to the current RL as a flagship. Why is it that Acura customers expect a car as big as a Mercedes S-Class for less than $50K?

jhr3uva90

Sir, I agree wholeheartedly and I have already placed my prediction for the Infiniti M. Expect sales to start decreasing slightly starting around April 2006. And expect sales of the 2007 model to be less than the 2006 model. That's my prediction.

mrdeeno

Please look up the word "sarcasm".


what a dumbass.

mrdeeno

It's funny that you bring up prestige factor but don't explain WHY Acura doesn't have the prestige factor...

besides selling the RSX, they also DON'T HAVE a v8 or rwd, which is something that Infiniti and Lexus have which contribute to better reviews, which in turn RAISES the prestige factor.

Do you think lexus had the prestige when they first came? How did they get to where they are now?

If the prestige factor is the be-all reason why Acura can't get off the ground, then lexus NEVER would be where they are now because they didn't have prestige from day 1. It's something that can be developed.

mrdeeno

I thought this was already done in another thread...

in the RL brochure it says the RL is the flagship. I'll look for that post.

mrdeeno

i'm sorry that i had to stoop to Rob L's level and start making personal attacks.

but for one thing, I can't believe that he is DUMB enough to actually believe that I think the biggest reason that the RL doesn't sell is the rims and tires.

2nd, I'm sick and tired of any comment of his towards mine because every single one makes somekind of personal attack for no reason...except that he doesnt' seem to have the ability to make a valid argument against anything I say.

I'm not saying there's no valid argument to make as many have been doing so, i'm just saying ROB L doesn't have the ability to make a valid argument, so he has to resort to personal attacks.

Mods can ban me, burn me, whatever...but this guy is a MORON!

mrdeeno

ok, i guess this is referring to the '96 RL, but the RL nonetheless.

So look at it either way you want...Acura called the '96 RL its flagship but doesn't refer to the current RL as its flagship.

February 1996 - The 3.5 RL replaces the Legend as Acura's flagship luxury sedan. With a 3.5-liter, SOHC V6 engine producing 210 horsepower and 224 lbs-ft of torque, sleek but bold exterior styling and pampering interior, RL sets the standard for luxury performance sedans.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Buyers in this segment want too much frivolity and not enough practicality. By all practical standards, the RL is a fantastic piece of engineering.

It drives just as well, if not better than all of its direct competition.
It has just about every electronic gadget you can imagine.
It has the most advanced AWD system available in any car currently in production.
It is priced to undercut all the competition when equally equipped.

But what the RL doesn't have is excess:

There is no gas guzzling V8 engine with unusable quantities of power and torque.
There are no option packages for people to throw money at.
There is no "I'm better than you" arrogance factor like there is with MB or BMW.

And Acura needs to decide on its corporate identity. It can't be everything to everyone. I feel like Acura needs to set itself up as a truly performance oriented brand and allow the luxury to be more optional. Let people pick their luxury if they want, but offer the cars as truly performance oriented cars. RWD is not a necessity for this, but in light of the impracticality that this necessary, RWD should be made standard, with the SH-AWD system made optional.

And to promote exclusivity the way that BMW and MB do it, Acura should allow people to custom order cars.

In the end, Acura needs to give the the rest of the buying public what they want instead of solely catering to its enthusiasts. We are already seeing this with the introduction of Acura's first turbocharged motor. This is something Acura would never have done in the past, but increasing pressures from the competition have forced Acura's hand.

As for the V8, the persistent rumors of a truly upper level, line-topping sedan one step up from the RL seem to indicate that a V8 will be not only necessary, but in the works. Plus, this engine could be shared with the Ridgeline, Pilot, and MDX along with a true full-size pickup and a TL or RL platform based performance coupe. All of this while still maintaining Acura's class leading pricing would be a great step towards reviving the brand.

Now they just need to give me my V10 powered NSX replacement.

jhr3uva90

Regarding the upcoming RDX, I think it will sell VERY well. I wonder, though if it will sell well because of the turbo engine or because it's a good looking SUV?

Also, I don't recall Acura referring to the current RL as a flagship. I don't know about the previous generation.

Does Acura really cater to enthusiasts, or simply to customers who want lots of features for the price? Wouldn't car enthusiasts prefer a RWD V8 as opposed to, say an Acura TL?

jhr3uva90

Here's a crazy idea. Mercedes has Maybach because the Mercedes brand on stretches so far. What if Honda created a new brand ABOVE the Acura brand as a way to sell cars? The new brand wouldn't be saddled with the "near luxury" image that Acura has. They could give the real flagship, the current RL and the NSX replacement to the new brand, and let the Acura be just for TSX's, TL's, RDX's, and MDX's. Kinda crazy, huh?

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I meant Acura enthusiasts, not necessarily car enthusiasts in general.

mrdeeno

I think the RDX will sell very well also. I don't think the turbo'ed engine is much of a factor though.

Mediocre SUV's sell well. Good SUV's sell even better. I think the RDX will be under the Good SUV segment so it'll sell really well.


I think Acura wants to cater to enthusiasts, but they are still stuck in the mindset of offering more features for the price (a Honda tradition). And by "enthusiasts" I don't just mean the sports-minded, but also the luxury minded enthusiasts and the tech-minded enthusiasts.

The first NSX, when it arrived, was TRULY catering to sports-enthusiasts...value and practicality was thrown out the window.

But the rest of its lineup was and is catering to the value-minded more than any other type of enthusiast.

Since we are usually discussing something 1-3 years after its already in the pipelines, I guess we'll see whick "identity" Acura decides to stick with in the coming year or 2. Either that or they continue to have an identity crisis and continue trying to cater to EVERYONE with each car.

jhr3uva90

Speaking of the NSX, I wonder if it would have sold better as a Corvette or a Porche? Was the Acura brand strong enough to support such a car, as wonderful as it was?

mrdeeno

I don't think it's necessary to create a brand above Acura. I think Acura already has a footing in the luxury market, it just needs to get its whole body in there.

Since most Acura's are perceived as at least "decent" for a luxury offering (no lemons to be found), they can build on this, but this all depends on PRODUCT.

I remember a MORON bringing up prestige, but prestige isn't something that is just given to a manufacturer...it is usually earned. And in the automobile market, the only way to earn prestige is to offer products that can competently compete with the established "prestigious" models...in other words they have to be legit alternatives.

Take Lexus for example...they started as an unknown just like Acura. It was their products that earned them prestige. The products were a "viable" alternative to MB's of the day, so people willing to look past the badge had a viable alternative. People bash lexus for copying MB, but this copying is what earned them their prestige.

If Lexus products weren't an alternative to MB's, then buyers in the class, open minded or not, don't have a "viable" option and would end up buying an established player. Then Lexus never would've gotten off the ground. This is the hole that Acura is in now...they are not offering "viable" alternatives to the established players.

Take the prestigious and established products on the market today:

525/50i, GS300/430, E350/500.

They each offer RWD, AWD, v/i6, or v8 and all kinds of techy/sporty options and trims.

Take the newest newcomer, the M35/45. You can say infiniti COPIED the established products by offering v6/v8 and rwd/awd and sporty/techy options and trim packages. This similarity in what is offered is "competing" head on with the established "prestigous" products. You can say that the M35/45 is now in the same race as the above "established" products.

Infiniti can swing either way. It can do well in the never ending race and gain prestige and be a "viable" alternative, or it can crash and burn...at least its in the race and has that chance.

The RL OTOH, offers only a v6, awd, and only recently a tech package. it's not taking the competition "head on", instead it's trying to be "different". This is almost a cocky way of saying "I don't need to compete because I'm special...and people will buy me because I'm special!"

So looking at it from this point of view, Infiniti (overall image) is competing with the established players and therefore has a chance to bring prestige up.

Acura OTOH isn't competing with the established players and instead playing its own "game". Unless it decides to FULLY enter the race with the players above, it will never have a chance to gain prestige. And I think they can do this (if they wanted to) without going to another higher brand name.

mrdeeno

yeah, i don't think whether it was a corvette or porsche had much to do with it.

I think if it was priced more like a corvette or even a porsche AND it was continuously updated, it would have sold better.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

That's very hard to do because the NSX is completely hand assembled. Both the Corvette and Porsche are manufactured using traditional assembly lines, which is why their prices are so much lower. Plus, the NSX uses a ton of aluminum in its structure and panels whereas the Corvette is fiberglass and the Porsche still uses a fair amount of traditional steel.

While the NSX is pretty out-of-date, it's still incredibly competitive especially considering that it's a 15 year old platform. If you have driven and NSX, you would understand why it is still a stunning car. I am definitely looking forward to the newest iteration.

mrdeeno

I agree, I'm not saying that the price isn't justified. I'm just saying that it would sell better if it was priced closer to the corvette or porsche.

I think the NSX has the same problem now...before when it was new, it was competitive with exotics around the same price but was more "friendly". Since it was a viable alternative to some people willing to spend $90k on a sports car, it helped Acura's image.

But as the competitors updated their products, the NSX lagged behind and is now no longer a "viable" alternative to a modern day ferrari, not to mention porsche or corvette. So keeping it so long without updates just negated any prestige factor it gave to the brand when it was new.

CL6

Wow that was an amazing article. All the stuff we sales people talk about... they got right. I was surprised to learn that the RL is smaller in some ways than the TSX. Never thought about that.

I don't see a V8 coming. I don't see RWD either. Or a 'stretched' RL. I know that a stripped down RL will be coming... but I don't know what it will not have (maybe no Navi). Problem is Acura has backed themselves into a corner with the RL. I think when they planned the RL they took their domestic market too much into consideration and forgot about the U.S. buyer.

To buy an RL you have to be somewhat of an intellectual. You need to take a step back and think about the advantages of the RL. It's a great car... but the article got it right... there are only so many slashdot people out there.

jhr3uva90

SLASHDOT RULES!!! Just kidding (although I do read slashdot).

CL6, I agree with you. when HONDA planned the new LEGEND, they thought about the Japanese market and then threw it at Acura to sell as the RL in North America. Maybe you can shed some light on this?

Also, I wonder why the RL seems to sell well in the DC-metro area? Is it because we love gadgets (there are 3 Apple Computer Stores within 30 minutes of my home)? Is it because we think and shuffle paper for a living? I like what you said about having to be "somewhat of an intellectual" to like the RL. Hell, you need to be somewhat intellectual just to figure out how to turn the car off. I'm scared to have the car valet parked

mrdeeno

like i said, acura gives too much credit to the average potential buyer.

jhr3uva90

True, or maybe Honda in Japan assumed that Americans and Japanese were the same?

mrdeeno

i really doubt that...it's pretty obvious they knew american and japanese tastes were different when they designed separate accord versions as well as designing the mdx and ridgeline.

i think besides overestimating consumers, they got cocky with the success of the TL and TSX and thought they could use the saem business model to sell the RL.

Look at the M and GS, which are also sold as japanese versions. Acura felt their v6 was strong enough to compete in this class without a v8 ("we don't need no stinkin' v8! our v6 is GRREEAAATT!!"). Neither Inf or Lex were that "cocky", which is why they offered v8 engine choices.

static808

I too think Acura gave too much credit to buyers. BMW, Mercedes usually build out the "recommended" optioned cars and the standard versions. The dealers sell these optioned cars and also "take orders" on the personalized cars. Maybe Acura looked at options as an expense.

When I bought my previous car, a BMW, they offered a stripped down version, recommended version (usually premium options included) or the booklet with like 18 other options. I choose the recommended and got a small discount to move the car off the lot.

Acura needs to provide choice. GS, M cars are $50K with AWD but when you walk into the dealer, the M35 is $39,900...

The RL, TL & TSX could easily have several trims. The RL will need a V8 or V10 in that offering.

TSX - current 4 cylinder, 4cylinder turbo, 3.0L V6 (From Honda Accord, if possible)
TL - 4cylinder turbo, 3.2L V6, 3.5L V6
RL - 3.5L V6, 3.5L V6 Hybrid, 4.5L V8 or V10

The Option Packages could be anything from a few to several.

Choice is the name of the game. The RL suffered from choice and with that, only the buyers who got rooked by the Germans looked at the RL as a great product.

jhr3uva90

Regarding the M and the GS. Lexus was created specifically with the USA in mind and all of their vehicles have traditionally been designed with the USA in mind. That's why Lexuses tend to be super smooth, super quiet, super boring: because that's what the American luxury car driver wants. That's also why Lexus was so quick to make SUVs. I think they are still the only "foreign" luxury car maker with 3 different product lines of SUVs.

Infiniti, and Nissan in general, have become more European. Personally, I think it's because of Renault's influence. So basically they are Japanese approximations of European cars.

The best-selling Acuras are the TL and the MDX. The TL was designed in the USA, built in the USA, to be sold exclusively in North America. The MDX was also designed in the USA, but built in Canada. It is also sold exclusively in North America. The TSX is the Japanese Accord (literally), but it sells well in the US because it is so much cheaper than its competition, especially for customers who don't know or care about the difference between FWD and RWD. The factor is very important for customers in the sub-$30K "near luxury" segment. That leaves the RL.

The RL is a car designed in Japan for Japanese tastes. In my opinion, Honda in Japan wasn't even thinking about the USA when they designed this car. They weren't trying to create their version of a European car, either. They just wanted to create the ultimate Honda, which would be the quintessential Japanese car. The problem is, Americans don't want to spend $50K on a quintessential Japanese car. We don't have the same priorities they do. That's why we keep bitching about the RL being too small, although I'm sure the Japanese think the size is perfect. That's why some potential customers are alienated by all the gadgets, although the US version of the RL actually has fewer gadgets than the Japanese version. And like mrdeeno has so eloquently written repeatedly, America luxury customers prefer the option of leaving out gadgets that they either don't want or don't understand. And unlike the TSX, the RL's cost advantage doesn't matter quite so much, because luxury customers generally don't think in terms of pragmatism anyway. If they did, they probably wouldn't be looking at luxury cars (or more often, SUVs).

The RL, or more appropriately the Honda Legend, is the most Japanese of the Japanese cars in this segment. It isn't trying to be the Japanese Cadillac/Merdeces hybrid (Lexus GS) or Japanese BMW (Infiniti M). Some might see the RL as a Japanese Audi A6, but standard AWD is the only common feature between the two cars. The current Honda Legend is literally a "legendary Honda," the embodiment of all Honda stands for (right or wrong) and where Honda intends to go in the future. Unfortunately, most US luxury customers want to go another way, which damages sales of an excellent car.

mrdeeno

Anyone know how the RL/Legend is doing overseas, namely in Japan?

CL6

So many things on the RL are designed for an engineer not a driver. Take the MID settings. Every time you make a change it kicks you out to the main menu. On the TL the car takes you to the next setting. I don't know why this wasn't changed. Also the rear sunshade. Sure, it goes down when you put the car into reverse but why would it not raise itself back up when you disengage reverse? And why the stupid 'twist the fake key' to start and stop? Why not a 'Start' and 'Stop' button?

I think the US did not recieve a unique RL (i.e. longer, more powerful, etc.) because this would have forced the people in Japan to blow a circuit by 'breaking their mold' and doing something different for the States. Cars that are designed and built in Japan are just different than the ones designed and built in North America.

The cheaper BMW leases are killing the RL. The small back seat and trunk are killing the RL. You open that trunk and the person looks back there and thinks: how can me and my business friends go golfing for the day? And if the family has kids the car is too small. Try fitting a stroller in the trunk.

So the RL appeals to wealthy techie guys who don't have kids or maybe to older couples who don't have kids around. No stick shift, a 5 speed. Even the VW Jetta has a 6 speed AND a rear sunshade!

Acura should throw a supercharger in the RL, offer it with standard 18' wheels, do a two tone paint scheme... something. But they are so 'locked' into their thinking and methods that they can't do this. The RL is a great car in its own right but it just needed more attention in certain places. And the TL cannot continue to carry the entire burden of Acura's passenger cars.

jhr3uva90

I have a couple of questions:

1) How many Americans even know how to drive a stick?
2) How are people able to get their children into a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry but they can't get them into an Acura RL that's the same size?

If Honda really wants the Acura RL to sell, they should make in an SUV. That seems to be what Americans really want. Think about how the Escalade has turned around Cadillac, especially for younger customers.

Oh well, at least the RL isn't a big FWD coupe with a torque steer problem like my old CL Type S.

123456SPEED

I don't really care about Acura following the formulas of the Germans and others lux brands. I've been an Acura buyer since the first Legend Coupe, 2nd Legend Coupe, and now the CLS 6MT coupe. I am apparently, not the average buyer.
I like more value for the money, some lux, reliability, some sport. I like coupes and shifters too. Let Lexus and the Germans sell to those who want mainly prestige automatics and owning the 'correct' brands.

I will be disappointed if Honda bows to these brands and offers a V8. It is not their niche. Honda is creative and skillful enough to offer other very interesting and quality models. I don't want Acura to turn into Lexus! A V8 is a defeat of the abilities and skill of what made Honda and Acura great.

CL6

A Honda Accord does not cost 50 grand. For 50 grand I'd like some legroom, please. And the Accord's rear seat folds forward and has a much bigger trunk. My CL seems to have only a little less rear legroom than the RL. And while most Americans don't or can't drive a stick it is still an important advertising point. Look to the CL and how a stick wasn't offered until its final year... too late to help it but until then every publication pointed to the lack of a stick shift as a major fault. Again... aspire to be a BMW and you must at least match BMW. The 5 series can be had in a stick.

I love my CL and all that if offers however I can also see why others think it's a turkey and why it sold only 30,000 copies over three years. I can also see both sides to the RL. But for 50 grand you gotta do it better than the other guys.

mrdeeno

And this is the type of buyer that the RL was aimed at...people who value "value" and are already a previous Acura owner.

But isn't it funny...what you said sounds a lot like the ford and chevy buyers back in the day. They said they were always a ford/chevy driver and always will be, and ford/chevy shouldn't have to worry about competing with foreign brands infiltrating the market because there will always be the "true-blue" american buyers to keep ford and chevy successful. Too bad their kids don't feel the same way.

I'm not saying its an exact analogy, but it has the same tone. There will always be true-blue big-3 buyers who buy for "american pride", and there will always be Acura-faithful who buy for the "value" and quality/reliability/etc. Whatever the reason it doesn't really matter.

But I don't think Acura is a niche brand, and i don't think they define themselves as that either. If they are such a "niche" brand, then why do they have SUVs at all? If they were a "niche" brand, then why even equip the RL with SH-AWD...since they are "niche" they could be the only FWD player!

They are doing these things because they ARE competing in the market and KNOW what ingredients are needed to compete. The only problem is that they don't have all the ingredients available, and instead of going out and GETTING the ingredients (V8, rwd, more options packages, etc.) they need, they just throw something together with what they have as best they can and tell everybody it tastes good!

Acura KNOWS what it needs. It just needs to concede that it doesn't have everything it needs and to go and get it (or develop it).

CL6

And this is what Acura lacks and why they have stumbled with the RL and why the RSX is going away and what will it be replaced with and why the NSX went away and they weren't even going to replace it until recently and why people don't see the value in paying 50 grand for an RL but they do see value in paying 80 grand for a Lexus.

jhr3uva90

I agree that a stick shift would be a great idea. Hopefully, the RL will have that option one day.

Regarding the RL's back seat room. . . it has slightly more than the Lexus GS and about the same as the BMW 5 series, the Infiniti M, and the Audi A6. However, the RL costs slightly less than all of those cars.

Is it something about us Acura customers where we want the whole world for $50K? The Lexus GS300 offers less for the money and consistently loses in comparisons, yet it sells well. Are we part of the problem?

jhr3uva90

Acura's not a niche brand, but the RL is a niche car. There's nothing inherently wrong with a niche product, as long as it is profitable for the manufacturer. For example, Apple Computer has survived for decades with niche products. Porche has survived even longer with niche products.

The RL does not have what the majority of luxury customers want. However, I don't know if a V8/V10 option alone will do it, or if a RWD RL will help either. I do know that publications like the Wall Street Journal and Forbes might like Acura, but never mentions Acura in the same paragraphs with Mercedes, BMW, or Audi. That's something Acura's PR folks need to change. I know that Lexus and Cadillac customers I've talked to either don't know what an Acura is or think of the Integra when they think about Acura. I've read how many problems Acura customers are having with sales people who don't even know what they're selling or service departments that are barely competent. All of that needs to change or else no Acura over a certain price point will sell, regardless of the merits of the vehicle.

And about Ford/Chevy: last time I checked, Ford was selling a lot of vehicles. Chevy (and GM in general) has myriad problems leading to their demise. You basically have a generation of young adults who grew up with GM having a reputation for crappy cars. It wasn't just a preference thing, it was a practical thing.