Interesting Comparo
10-24-2005, 09:52 PM
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Interesting Comparo
I crossed shoped the RL against the Infiniti M35 AWD, Lexus GS300 AWD, the BMW 530xi and the Audi A6. Interestingly enough, the Lexus dealership considered the Infiniti & BMW as main competitors (wasn't worried about the RL or A6), the Infiniti dealership considered the GS & 530xi it's main competitors (not worried about the RL or A6), the BMW dealership considered its main competition the E Class and the Audi dealership considered the E and 530 as its competition.
When doing online comparisons, the RL is left out of all the "fast picks" for each of these sites.
What is it about the RL that gets viewed as "not on par" by those other competitors? Is it brand recognition? Is it the fact that it is built on an Accord platform? The fact that it costs less? I would be interested in hearing view points from everyone else.
Just to keep it on the up & up, I have listed my findings below.
I purchased the RL because it was the least expensive car in the group I shopped (similarily equipped) and I got more for my trade there than anywhere else (05 TL with Navi).
1. BMW 530xi would have been my first choice even though it was the least nicest interior, poor navigation system and 255 HP because it handled so well and has such high resale values; plus 4 years maintenance free. However, similarily equipped was pushing the $60K mark. It's not that good - no where near that good.
2. Infiniti M35 AWD would have been second, but I hate the interior dash and the navigation was very inferior.
3. RL was 3rd
4. Audi A6 drove well and was nice, but just didn't do it for me and the navi was terrible.
5. Why is Lexus selling so many GS 300's? I was underwhelmed, to say the least, in all aspects.
So, with all factors considered, the RL seemed to be my best bet. But yet, it doesn't garner the respect it deserves as a $50K flagship that can compete with the best around.
When doing online comparisons, the RL is left out of all the "fast picks" for each of these sites.
What is it about the RL that gets viewed as "not on par" by those other competitors? Is it brand recognition? Is it the fact that it is built on an Accord platform? The fact that it costs less? I would be interested in hearing view points from everyone else.
Just to keep it on the up & up, I have listed my findings below.
I purchased the RL because it was the least expensive car in the group I shopped (similarily equipped) and I got more for my trade there than anywhere else (05 TL with Navi).
1. BMW 530xi would have been my first choice even though it was the least nicest interior, poor navigation system and 255 HP because it handled so well and has such high resale values; plus 4 years maintenance free. However, similarily equipped was pushing the $60K mark. It's not that good - no where near that good.
2. Infiniti M35 AWD would have been second, but I hate the interior dash and the navigation was very inferior.
3. RL was 3rd
4. Audi A6 drove well and was nice, but just didn't do it for me and the navi was terrible.
5. Why is Lexus selling so many GS 300's? I was underwhelmed, to say the least, in all aspects.
So, with all factors considered, the RL seemed to be my best bet. But yet, it doesn't garner the respect it deserves as a $50K flagship that can compete with the best around.
10-24-2005, 09:58 PM
#2
That is an interesting comparison. My lexus dealer said the RL was the GS300 AWDs competitor - along with the M35x and the 530xi. I think that many people don't look at the RL because people don't even know the acura name as a luxury brand.
10-24-2005, 10:13 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
The Lexus is selling well because:
1. There are more Lexus dealerships than Acura dealerships.
2. There are lots of loyal Lexus fans who will buy anything Lexus puts out.
3. There are men whose wives make them buy Lexuses.
4. The GS really is impressive when it comes to the interior.
5. Lexus knows what Americans REALLY want: a car that is "smooth and quiet."
1. There are more Lexus dealerships than Acura dealerships.
2. There are lots of loyal Lexus fans who will buy anything Lexus puts out.
3. There are men whose wives make them buy Lexuses.
4. The GS really is impressive when it comes to the interior.
5. Lexus knows what Americans REALLY want: a car that is "smooth and quiet."
10-24-2005, 10:15 PM
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VP911,
I remember looking at the RL A-Spec in the NYC auto show last March and hearing a woman in her 30's say "it's nice, but it's just an Acura...I like the Lexus 330 better." That's insane because she was referring to ES 330, the TL's competition. It's just brand cache.
The folks in Edmunds say it's because Acura has done a poor job of advertizing itself as a premium brand, like Lexus' awesome advertizing. They also say it's because no Acura can be had with an 8 cylinder, but I don't believe that.
I'm very happy with the RL so far, although I wish it had a cassette player, cooled seats and some other features, but overall, very, very happy. However, it's equally refreshing and annoying (simultaneously) that outside of car enthusiasts like us, no one knows it's a premium 50K luxury car and most people don't think it's on par with those other cars I mentioned.
I remember looking at the RL A-Spec in the NYC auto show last March and hearing a woman in her 30's say "it's nice, but it's just an Acura...I like the Lexus 330 better." That's insane because she was referring to ES 330, the TL's competition. It's just brand cache.
The folks in Edmunds say it's because Acura has done a poor job of advertizing itself as a premium brand, like Lexus' awesome advertizing. They also say it's because no Acura can be had with an 8 cylinder, but I don't believe that.
I'm very happy with the RL so far, although I wish it had a cassette player, cooled seats and some other features, but overall, very, very happy. However, it's equally refreshing and annoying (simultaneously) that outside of car enthusiasts like us, no one knows it's a premium 50K luxury car and most people don't think it's on par with those other cars I mentioned.
10-24-2005, 10:17 PM
#5
I can't believe anybody can compare the TL - a sporty sedan - to the ES330 - a camry.
I will be honest, if lexus had sh-awd and XM (don't know if they do or not) I probably would have bought the gs300. The awd was a big reason I came to acura.
I will be honest, if lexus had sh-awd and XM (don't know if they do or not) I probably would have bought the gs300. The awd was a big reason I came to acura.
10-24-2005, 10:24 PM
#6
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
The Lexus is selling well because:
1. There are more Lexus dealerships than Acura dealerships.
2. There are lots of loyal Lexus fans who will buy anything Lexus puts out.
3. There are men whose wives make them buy Lexuses.
4. The GS really is impressive when it comes to the interior.
5. Lexus knows what Americans REALLY want: a car that is "smooth and quiet."
1. There are more Lexus dealerships than Acura dealerships.
2. There are lots of loyal Lexus fans who will buy anything Lexus puts out.
3. There are men whose wives make them buy Lexuses.
4. The GS really is impressive when it comes to the interior.
5. Lexus knows what Americans REALLY want: a car that is "smooth and quiet."
And yes, Lexus knows that most car buyers really just want a quiet, comfortable car as opposed to a true drivers car.
10-24-2005, 10:24 PM
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Well - different strokes for different folks. I actually preferred my TL to the GS330AWD. I didn't find the interior all that luxurious (though I miss my touch screen Navi), the performance was absent and it was not as quiet as I thought it would be. Maybe I test drove a slightly "marred" vehicle, but I was not impressed.
When I told the sales manager what I was cross-shopping he said "we only consider the 530 xi and M our competition...what did you think of those cars." His response was "$58K for a 530?! that's 545 money, so we're not in trouble there" and "interesting about the M, most people say they love the interior but dislike the way it drives." And lastly "don't know anything about the RL - that's not our competition, so we don't give it a second thought."
IMHO, you made the right choice with the RL over the GS - hands down.
When I told the sales manager what I was cross-shopping he said "we only consider the 530 xi and M our competition...what did you think of those cars." His response was "$58K for a 530?! that's 545 money, so we're not in trouble there" and "interesting about the M, most people say they love the interior but dislike the way it drives." And lastly "don't know anything about the RL - that's not our competition, so we don't give it a second thought."
IMHO, you made the right choice with the RL over the GS - hands down.
Trending Topics
10-24-2005, 10:29 PM
#8
Originally Posted by paul_philly
VP911,
I remember looking at the RL A-Spec in the NYC auto show last March and hearing a woman in her 30's say "it's nice, but it's just an Acura...I like the Lexus 330 better." That's insane because she was referring to ES 330, the TL's competition. It's just brand cache.
The folks in Edmunds say it's because Acura has done a poor job of advertizing itself as a premium brand, like Lexus' awesome advertizing. They also say it's because no Acura can be had with an 8 cylinder, but I don't believe that.
I'm very happy with the RL so far, although I wish it had a cassette player, cooled seats and some other features, but overall, very, very happy. However, it's equally refreshing and annoying (simultaneously) that outside of car enthusiasts like us, no one knows it's a premium 50K luxury car and most people don't think it's on par with those other cars I mentioned.
I remember looking at the RL A-Spec in the NYC auto show last March and hearing a woman in her 30's say "it's nice, but it's just an Acura...I like the Lexus 330 better." That's insane because she was referring to ES 330, the TL's competition. It's just brand cache.
The folks in Edmunds say it's because Acura has done a poor job of advertizing itself as a premium brand, like Lexus' awesome advertizing. They also say it's because no Acura can be had with an 8 cylinder, but I don't believe that.
I'm very happy with the RL so far, although I wish it had a cassette player, cooled seats and some other features, but overall, very, very happy. However, it's equally refreshing and annoying (simultaneously) that outside of car enthusiasts like us, no one knows it's a premium 50K luxury car and most people don't think it's on par with those other cars I mentioned.
As for Acura not marketing itself well, it's probably true. Acura is also much more of a niche brand as opposed to being solely a premium or non-premium brand. However, it is no less premium than Lexus when it comes to real-life comparisons. And the whole 8-cylinder thing is crap since most people buy the 6-cylinder models anyway. That's just a lame excuse, really.
As for your original post, I gotta say that those brands are really just afraid to compare themselves against the RL because with equal equipment layouts, most cars are several thousand dollars more and are not significantly better to overcome the price difference.
10-24-2005, 10:43 PM
#9
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I think that the RSX, the EL(in Canada), and to a lesser extent the TSX, have really hurt the Acura brand image. The idea behind a luxury brand name is to have products that people aspire to, dream about, hope to attain someday. With the low price options that Acura provided, just about anybody could afford an Acura. The hope that Acura has is that all of those loyal Acura buyers (and Honda buyers too) will move up the ladder to the TL, MDX, RL and even the NSX, once their bank balances allow it. This is a wonderful strategy for keeping loyal customers, but a poor strategy in trying to generate new customers for your high-end products. That said, after 10 straight years of increased sales and a very healthy balance sheet, I have to give the Honda execs the benefit of the doubt. Acura will simply settle back into it's niche as a company that makes great cars that are less expensive than the competition but still offer world class features that the others envy.
10-24-2005, 10:53 PM
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Yes, Toyota has done a phenominal job marketing the Lexus brand. It is amazing to think the Lexus name didn't even exist 18 years ago. Advertising isn't enough, Toyota used a variety of methods to build the Lexus brand, and they are doing it again with Scion.
Getting rid of the RSX could help build cache for the Acura brand, and I hear 2006 will be the last model. Still Acura has a long way to go. I don't feel badly, though. I read an article recently in the Wall Street Journal that says Audi is having the same recognition problem. And non-enthusiasts (or as they're often called, "women") haven't heard that much about Infiniti, either.
Getting rid of the RSX could help build cache for the Acura brand, and I hear 2006 will be the last model. Still Acura has a long way to go. I don't feel badly, though. I read an article recently in the Wall Street Journal that says Audi is having the same recognition problem. And non-enthusiasts (or as they're often called, "women") haven't heard that much about Infiniti, either.
10-24-2005, 11:23 PM
#11
Originally Posted by hondamore
I think that the RSX, the EL(in Canada), and to a lesser extent the TSX, have really hurt the Acura brand image. The idea behind a luxury brand name is to have products that people aspire to, dream about, hope to attain someday. With the low price options that Acura provided, just about anybody could afford an Acura. The hope that Acura has is that all of those loyal Acura buyers (and Honda buyers too) will move up the ladder to the TL, MDX, RL and even the NSX, once their bank balances allow it. This is a wonderful strategy for keeping loyal customers, but a poor strategy in trying to generate new customers for your high-end products. That said, after 10 straight years of increased sales and a very healthy balance sheet, I have to give the Honda execs the benefit of the doubt. Acura will simply settle back into it's niche as a company that makes great cars that are less expensive than the competition but still offer world class features that the others envy.
10-25-2005, 01:28 AM
#12
Originally Posted by hondamore
I think that the RSX, the EL(in Canada), and to a lesser extent the TSX, have really hurt the Acura brand image. The idea behind a luxury brand name is to have products that people aspire to, dream about, hope to attain someday. With the low price options that Acura provided, just about anybody could afford an Acura. The hope that Acura has is that all of those loyal Acura buyers (and Honda buyers too) will move up the ladder to the TL, MDX, RL and even the NSX, once their bank balances allow it. This is a wonderful strategy for keeping loyal customers, but a poor strategy in trying to generate new customers for your high-end products. That said, after 10 straight years of increased sales and a very healthy balance sheet, I have to give the Honda execs the benefit of the doubt. Acura will simply settle back into it's niche as a company that makes great cars that are less expensive than the competition but still offer world class features that the others envy.
10-25-2005, 05:40 AM
#13
The Acura brand is strong but I believe that with the recent RL sales, Acura/Honda will need to revisit the advertising business. The RL should be selling about 25,000+ units yearly. The car is amazing and for the price there is no comparison.
The U.S. is built around image. So for the Lexus dealers and their salesman, they have to look up to the BMW/Mercedes crowd. They are not allowed to be compared to Acura.
Toyota/Lexus views Honda/Acura as its biggest competitor. If Acura ever gets a full carline with (TSX, RDX, MDX, TL, RL, Future RL 2 door, Future LS Class car and NSX), that's when Acura can really shine and take on the Germans & Lexus.
Acura will always be a niche player until they get the full carline. Economics might have something to do with that..
As for the RL, show me a better car....I haven't found one and thats why I bought one !
The U.S. is built around image. So for the Lexus dealers and their salesman, they have to look up to the BMW/Mercedes crowd. They are not allowed to be compared to Acura.
Toyota/Lexus views Honda/Acura as its biggest competitor. If Acura ever gets a full carline with (TSX, RDX, MDX, TL, RL, Future RL 2 door, Future LS Class car and NSX), that's when Acura can really shine and take on the Germans & Lexus.
Acura will always be a niche player until they get the full carline. Economics might have something to do with that..
As for the RL, show me a better car....I haven't found one and thats why I bought one !
10-25-2005, 08:36 AM
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They simply dont consider it because they dont see Acura as a "good enough" brand to compete with their prestige and apparently prestige is all that matters for the superficial species known as humans.
I will say that while I like my RL, if you took the sh-awd and slapped it in a Lexus I'd buy it in a heartbeat over the RL. Lexus cars are just flat out built better. Acura cut some corners with the RL and it makes me shake my head.
I will say that while I like my RL, if you took the sh-awd and slapped it in a Lexus I'd buy it in a heartbeat over the RL. Lexus cars are just flat out built better. Acura cut some corners with the RL and it makes me shake my head.
10-25-2005, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by paul_philly
What is it about the RL that gets viewed as "not on par" by those other competitors? Is it brand recognition? Is it the fact that it is built on an Accord platform? The fact that it costs less? I would be interested in hearing view points from everyone else.
So, with all factors considered, the RL seemed to be my best bet. But yet, it doesn't garner the respect it deserves as a $50K flagship that can compete with the best around.
10-25-2005, 09:57 AM
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There are a couple of things in play here. When I looked at the Audi, BMW & Mercedes the dealers made a big thing about it being a "european" sedan...questions like "is this your first european sedan" as we went for the test drive, like I was about to have my first sexual experience. They really work on that image. They want you to forget/ignore that they don't hold up well over time, that even the E class is plagued by service problems.
The other factor is the quality of Acura dealers. I bought my RL at Frankel in Hunt Valley, MD because they are just one of the top dealers in the area, selling Cadillacs and Jaguars. I've been very pleased with my service, and personal followup to any issues. I get free donuts and coffee and work over WiFi in their plush lounge when the car is in for service.
I never even looked at Infiniti because they were handled by a Nissan dealer that has a reputation for poor support, and one I've had personal negative experiences with when getting service on my Saab. Their servcie lounge is all flourescent lights and linoleum. From other posts here, I get the impression that many Acura dealerships are associated with the economy level Honda image, as opposed to the luxury level image of Frankel.
As an aside, I had the experience this week of taking my car up to Erie to visit my son in college. The car made the 6 hour trip a breeze. When on campus, there were a lot of double takes by students as I drove by, and I got several positive comments on how the car looked from the 19-21 crowd. It was probably the first RL ever in the area. Nobody knew what it was, but it out-classed all the other cars in the starbucks lot, including several bimmers. Even in the rain, kids stopped to take a look. The styling is classic, and when parked next to an Accord looks like it's from a different, better, world.
The other factor is the quality of Acura dealers. I bought my RL at Frankel in Hunt Valley, MD because they are just one of the top dealers in the area, selling Cadillacs and Jaguars. I've been very pleased with my service, and personal followup to any issues. I get free donuts and coffee and work over WiFi in their plush lounge when the car is in for service.
I never even looked at Infiniti because they were handled by a Nissan dealer that has a reputation for poor support, and one I've had personal negative experiences with when getting service on my Saab. Their servcie lounge is all flourescent lights and linoleum. From other posts here, I get the impression that many Acura dealerships are associated with the economy level Honda image, as opposed to the luxury level image of Frankel.
As an aside, I had the experience this week of taking my car up to Erie to visit my son in college. The car made the 6 hour trip a breeze. When on campus, there were a lot of double takes by students as I drove by, and I got several positive comments on how the car looked from the 19-21 crowd. It was probably the first RL ever in the area. Nobody knew what it was, but it out-classed all the other cars in the starbucks lot, including several bimmers. Even in the rain, kids stopped to take a look. The styling is classic, and when parked next to an Accord looks like it's from a different, better, world.
10-25-2005, 12:09 PM
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I agree with dude (or gal) who said that the RSX and TSX have hurt Acura's brand image. The lack of a V8 and RWD doesn' help either. V8's may not sell a lot, but do go a long way in elevating a brand's overall image.
Infiniti used to have far less brand image than Acura, but now they've caught up because they don't sell anything less than $30k, all of their vehicles are RWD/AWD, and offer a V8 in four of their models.
Infiniti used to have far less brand image than Acura, but now they've caught up because they don't sell anything less than $30k, all of their vehicles are RWD/AWD, and offer a V8 in four of their models.
10-25-2005, 12:47 PM
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If Acura wants to compete with Lexus they need to be competitive in three seperate, but related areas:
Cars- Other than the RL, what luxury car does Acura sell? What competes with Lexus' LS430? Acura can't compete with Lexus on the basis of a single car. Especially when that single car is easily topped in terms of luxury.
Dealerships- My local Acura dealer is housed in the former Honda dealership. They installed new tile on the floors and made it an Acura dealership. Plus the Honda dealer (owned by the same family) is next door. So everyone who is looking at Acura not only cross-shops Honda, they are reminded that it is the same company. All they need now is to move a Honda motorcycle dealership on the other side of Acura. By contrast, the Lexus dealer is housed in a building built and designed to be a high-end dealership. The contrast locally couldn't be worse for Acura.
Image- Much of the national image is created though advertising. But once the advertising gets someone in the front door, they have to deal with the reality of the cars and dealerships. Perhaps the worst thing that Acura can do is have a great campaign, set up unrealistic expectations and send tons of prospects to their dealerships. That ballon will deflate faster than you can say, "You're right honey, what was I thinking?"
Cars- Other than the RL, what luxury car does Acura sell? What competes with Lexus' LS430? Acura can't compete with Lexus on the basis of a single car. Especially when that single car is easily topped in terms of luxury.
Dealerships- My local Acura dealer is housed in the former Honda dealership. They installed new tile on the floors and made it an Acura dealership. Plus the Honda dealer (owned by the same family) is next door. So everyone who is looking at Acura not only cross-shops Honda, they are reminded that it is the same company. All they need now is to move a Honda motorcycle dealership on the other side of Acura. By contrast, the Lexus dealer is housed in a building built and designed to be a high-end dealership. The contrast locally couldn't be worse for Acura.
Image- Much of the national image is created though advertising. But once the advertising gets someone in the front door, they have to deal with the reality of the cars and dealerships. Perhaps the worst thing that Acura can do is have a great campaign, set up unrealistic expectations and send tons of prospects to their dealerships. That ballon will deflate faster than you can say, "You're right honey, what was I thinking?"
10-25-2005, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by paul_philly
I crossed shoped the RL against the Infiniti M35 AWD, Lexus GS300 AWD, the BMW 530xi and the Audi A6. Interestingly enough, the Lexus dealership considered the Infiniti & BMW as main competitors (wasn't worried about the RL or A6), the Infiniti dealership considered the GS & 530xi it's main competitors (not worried about the RL or A6), the BMW dealership considered its main competition the E Class and the Audi dealership considered the E and 530 as its competition.
When doing online comparisons, the RL is left out of all the "fast picks" for each of these sites.
What is it about the RL that gets viewed as "not on par" by those other competitors? Is it brand recognition? Is it the fact that it is built on an Accord platform? The fact that it costs less? I would be interested in hearing view points from everyone else.
Just to keep it on the up & up, I have listed my findings below.
I purchased the RL because it was the least expensive car in the group I shopped (similarily equipped) and I got more for my trade there than anywhere else (05 TL with Navi).
1. BMW 530xi would have been my first choice even though it was the least nicest interior, poor navigation system and 255 HP because it handled so well and has such high resale values; plus 4 years maintenance free. However, similarily equipped was pushing the $60K mark. It's not that good - no where near that good. After the warranty the car is worthless and interior is on par with the late 80s acuras. They need a new desighn engineer badly. 2nd, I pass a late model broken down BMW every other day on the side of the road with its hazards flashing and a person waiting for a toe truck in a nice suit and cheap shoes.
2. Infiniti M35 AWD would have been second, but I hate the interior dash and the navigation was very inferior. There interior is on par with buick.
3. RL was 3rd The best car by far.
4. Audi A6 drove well and was nice, but just didn't do it for me and the navi was terrible. Germans are goos at weightlifting and not quality control.
5. Why is Lexus selling so many GS 300's? I was underwhelmed, to say the least, in all aspects. They look like a maxima and serve filtered water in there service wating area.
So, with all factors considered, the RL seemed to be my best bet. But yet, it doesn't garner the respect it deserves as a $50K flagship that can compete with the best around.
When doing online comparisons, the RL is left out of all the "fast picks" for each of these sites.
What is it about the RL that gets viewed as "not on par" by those other competitors? Is it brand recognition? Is it the fact that it is built on an Accord platform? The fact that it costs less? I would be interested in hearing view points from everyone else.
Just to keep it on the up & up, I have listed my findings below.
I purchased the RL because it was the least expensive car in the group I shopped (similarily equipped) and I got more for my trade there than anywhere else (05 TL with Navi).
1. BMW 530xi would have been my first choice even though it was the least nicest interior, poor navigation system and 255 HP because it handled so well and has such high resale values; plus 4 years maintenance free. However, similarily equipped was pushing the $60K mark. It's not that good - no where near that good. After the warranty the car is worthless and interior is on par with the late 80s acuras. They need a new desighn engineer badly. 2nd, I pass a late model broken down BMW every other day on the side of the road with its hazards flashing and a person waiting for a toe truck in a nice suit and cheap shoes.
2. Infiniti M35 AWD would have been second, but I hate the interior dash and the navigation was very inferior. There interior is on par with buick.
3. RL was 3rd The best car by far.
4. Audi A6 drove well and was nice, but just didn't do it for me and the navi was terrible. Germans are goos at weightlifting and not quality control.
5. Why is Lexus selling so many GS 300's? I was underwhelmed, to say the least, in all aspects. They look like a maxima and serve filtered water in there service wating area.
So, with all factors considered, the RL seemed to be my best bet. But yet, it doesn't garner the respect it deserves as a $50K flagship that can compete with the best around.
10-25-2005, 01:36 PM
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1. BMW. Worthless after there warranty runs out. There interior is on par with that of a pontiac gto. They need some new desighn engineers asap. I pass one with its hazards on and someone standing outside it on there phone every day.
2.Infiniti, Again need to fire there design engineers and get a new interior parts purchasing manager. Looks like a pontiac sunfire quality wise.
3.RL, Need to learn how to go foward with a V8 because thats what dumb consumers want. They think a crown vic with a 210 hp v8 is more powerful and seem to get scared away. Need to fire there paint shop foreman.
4.AudiA6. They need to shut down all operations and go back to weightlifting and prepare for the olympics. Do what they now how to do.
5.Lexus. They need to keep up with there creative advertising and overpriced models because dumb consumers love it.
6.Crazytsxmods. Needs to buy a dictionary.
2.Infiniti, Again need to fire there design engineers and get a new interior parts purchasing manager. Looks like a pontiac sunfire quality wise.
3.RL, Need to learn how to go foward with a V8 because thats what dumb consumers want. They think a crown vic with a 210 hp v8 is more powerful and seem to get scared away. Need to fire there paint shop foreman.
4.AudiA6. They need to shut down all operations and go back to weightlifting and prepare for the olympics. Do what they now how to do.
5.Lexus. They need to keep up with there creative advertising and overpriced models because dumb consumers love it.
6.Crazytsxmods. Needs to buy a dictionary.
10-25-2005, 02:28 PM
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Silly Sales Person Comparisons
I think one thing that is important to consider is the source of this information. It seems that these sales people told you that they do not consider Acura their competition. I think the designers and marketing personnel may disagree.
I think it is a very arrogant sales tactic to tell someone that you do not consider brand-x a competitor. Anything that can gets someone from point A to point B should be considered a competitor. A saleperson is only going to give you competitors that they can easily diffuse. Saying a BMW is expensive and unreliable is an easy way to dismiss the product, but they will avoid telling you about the great resale and exeptional handling of these cars. I feel that telling people Acuras are not even competition is that salespersons way of convincing you that it is inferior to their product without having to give concrete details.
Sorry to get somewhat sidetracked, arrogant sales people really irritate me.
I think it is a very arrogant sales tactic to tell someone that you do not consider brand-x a competitor. Anything that can gets someone from point A to point B should be considered a competitor. A saleperson is only going to give you competitors that they can easily diffuse. Saying a BMW is expensive and unreliable is an easy way to dismiss the product, but they will avoid telling you about the great resale and exeptional handling of these cars. I feel that telling people Acuras are not even competition is that salespersons way of convincing you that it is inferior to their product without having to give concrete details.
Sorry to get somewhat sidetracked, arrogant sales people really irritate me.
10-25-2005, 04:31 PM
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tl2rl - good point!
I think you may be on to something, but it was the General Manager that made the comments. All the same though...I think you're on the right track.
However, there is a certain "discrimination" against Acura from consumers cross-shopping Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, Audi and MB. I'm just trying to see what drives brand perception.
It's been an interesting thread with good viewpoints.
I think you may be on to something, but it was the General Manager that made the comments. All the same though...I think you're on the right track.
However, there is a certain "discrimination" against Acura from consumers cross-shopping Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, Audi and MB. I'm just trying to see what drives brand perception.
It's been an interesting thread with good viewpoints.
10-25-2005, 04:34 PM
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Acura does advertise, but only so many people watch
Formula-1 Racing. For all 19 races this year all over the world, they sponsored the Pre-Race show and always ran ads for the TL and the RL. They are apparently leaning towards people who appreciate the driving experience along with BMW who also advertises at these races. If they ever choose to advertise in the mainline TV times/programs, they would probably get more business.. The dealer here in Bellevue, WA tries really hard to take care of us and pretty much have made us happy with our TL, MDX, and now our RL.
I have had both new BMW's and the new TL and now an RL, and the Acura line has way more going for it than any of my former Bimmers. There is something, however, about the BMW driving experience that will always make me feel so "connected" with the car and the road. No one else has this, but Acura comes close. I also tested the new Lexus IS300 when I was looking in 2001 and almost fell asleep on the test drive. It was so quiet and boring, they didnt offer a 5-6-speed at the time, they wanted alot for what it was, so I told them thanks and went and bought a new black/black BMW 3 series instead. Broke it in by driving to Texas from Northern Calif; drove 1300 miles non-stop the first leg and didnt even feel tired. The BMW interior is very nice in all that I've owned, but it is not a technically robust place as is the RL. They are finally getting better stereo equipment but they are still light years away from the RL here too.
Not to knock those who have one but I think that the Lxxxs line is for people who like to drive and not deal with the experience - they want it cushy and all like their living rooms, etc., and thats fine. I just blow right by them.. DanF
I have had both new BMW's and the new TL and now an RL, and the Acura line has way more going for it than any of my former Bimmers. There is something, however, about the BMW driving experience that will always make me feel so "connected" with the car and the road. No one else has this, but Acura comes close. I also tested the new Lexus IS300 when I was looking in 2001 and almost fell asleep on the test drive. It was so quiet and boring, they didnt offer a 5-6-speed at the time, they wanted alot for what it was, so I told them thanks and went and bought a new black/black BMW 3 series instead. Broke it in by driving to Texas from Northern Calif; drove 1300 miles non-stop the first leg and didnt even feel tired. The BMW interior is very nice in all that I've owned, but it is not a technically robust place as is the RL. They are finally getting better stereo equipment but they are still light years away from the RL here too.
Not to knock those who have one but I think that the Lxxxs line is for people who like to drive and not deal with the experience - they want it cushy and all like their living rooms, etc., and thats fine. I just blow right by them.. DanF
10-25-2005, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by stokdgs
I also tested the new Lexus IS300 when I was looking in 2001 and almost fell asleep on the test drive. It was so quiet and boring, they didnt offer a 5-6-speed at the time, they wanted alot for what it was, so I told them thanks and went and bought a new black/black BMW 3 series instead. Broke it in by driving to Texas from Northern Calif; drove 1300 miles non-stop the first leg and didnt even feel tired. The BMW interior is very nice in all that I've owned, but it is not a technically robust place as is the RL. They are finally getting better stereo equipment but they are still light years away from the RL here too.
Not to knock those who have one but I think that the Lxxxs line is for people who like to drive and not deal with the experience - they want it cushy and all like their living rooms, etc., and thats fine. I just blow right by them.. DanF
Not to knock those who have one but I think that the Lxxxs line is for people who like to drive and not deal with the experience - they want it cushy and all like their living rooms, etc., and thats fine. I just blow right by them.. DanF
As for saying you blow by Lexus cars...really? I'd like to see the Acura sedan that can blow by the new IS350 or even the GS430. I like my RL and all but if I tried to blow by an IS350 or GS430 or even the LS430 I'd get left in the dust. The TL could give the LS a run but that's about it.
Oh and I'd say the Lexus line is for people who want top quality cars and dont care if their car isnt the greatest handling car on earth which only comes into play at the track which 99.5% of the car drivers out there dont do.
10-26-2005, 06:53 AM
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I think the Lexus name has more status the Acura, and that's probably why a lot of people buy the Lexus. Most people don't know much about cars. The Lexus is a good car and has great service departments.
Most people that buy Acuras are probably "car people" and like me, could car less about a status symbol. In fact, that is why I didn't buy a BMW. I don't want the image that goes with a BMW of Lexus.
Most people that buy Acuras are probably "car people" and like me, could car less about a status symbol. In fact, that is why I didn't buy a BMW. I don't want the image that goes with a BMW of Lexus.
10-26-2005, 09:15 AM
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The fact still remains Lexus cars have a higher level of luxury and build quality than Acura. If Lexus cars didnt have the luxury level they have and werent as reliable and built as well as they are then I'd agree more people buy them because of the name...but as it stands, I think most people buy them because of the cars they make.
In the past 10 years me or my folks have owned 6 Lexus cars (they currently still have a loaded 2001 LS430) and 2 acura cars with me owning the 05 RL. I can honestly say Acura isn't up to the level of build quality Lexus has as well as luxury level.
The RL is close to Lexus quality (and it is pretty much on par for luxury level) but again, Acura cut some corners that you dont find Lexus doing and until they quit cutting those corners they will always be behind Lexus in terms of build quality...unless of course Lexus decides to start cutting corners themselves but I dont see that happening.
In the past 10 years me or my folks have owned 6 Lexus cars (they currently still have a loaded 2001 LS430) and 2 acura cars with me owning the 05 RL. I can honestly say Acura isn't up to the level of build quality Lexus has as well as luxury level.
The RL is close to Lexus quality (and it is pretty much on par for luxury level) but again, Acura cut some corners that you dont find Lexus doing and until they quit cutting those corners they will always be behind Lexus in terms of build quality...unless of course Lexus decides to start cutting corners themselves but I dont see that happening.
10-26-2005, 10:47 AM
#29
Originally Posted by Rob L
The fact still remains Lexus cars have a higher level of luxury and build quality than Acura. If Lexus cars didnt have the luxury level they have and werent as reliable and built as well as they are then I'd agree more people buy them because of the name...but as it stands, I think most people buy them because of the cars they make.
In the past 10 years me or my folks have owned 6 Lexus cars (they currently still have a loaded 2001 LS430) and 2 acura cars with me owning the 05 RL. I can honestly say Acura isn't up to the level of build quality Lexus has as well as luxury level.
The RL is close to Lexus quality (and it is pretty much on par for luxury level) but again, Acura cut some corners that you dont find Lexus doing and until they quit cutting those corners they will always be behind Lexus in terms of build quality...unless of course Lexus decides to start cutting corners themselves but I dont see that happening.
In the past 10 years me or my folks have owned 6 Lexus cars (they currently still have a loaded 2001 LS430) and 2 acura cars with me owning the 05 RL. I can honestly say Acura isn't up to the level of build quality Lexus has as well as luxury level.
The RL is close to Lexus quality (and it is pretty much on par for luxury level) but again, Acura cut some corners that you dont find Lexus doing and until they quit cutting those corners they will always be behind Lexus in terms of build quality...unless of course Lexus decides to start cutting corners themselves but I dont see that happening.
10-26-2005, 11:28 AM
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This is an interesting discussion, but it bugs me that it's based mainly on speculation. Who knows why people buy more Lexus' then Acura. I don't believe anyone has ever done a study on it, and I'm not sure people would willingly admit it was because it's a status symbol anyways. Personally, I went with an Acura RL because I felt it was the best deal on the market, and I feel the same way about the TL. Absolutely love them both. I have never loved a car as much as I love my RL. I'd go on, but the details could get me arrested.... anyways, I better get back to work.
10-26-2005, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob L
The fact still remains Lexus cars have a higher level of luxury and build quality than Acura. If Lexus cars didnt have the luxury level they have and werent as reliable and built as well as they are then I'd agree more people buy them because of the name...but as it stands, I think most people buy them because of the cars they make.
There is always a balancing act between perception (marketing) and reality.
Lexus is doing a great job of setting an image of quality and luxury with their marketing that they are backing up with the reality of their cars.
Acura, on the other hand, has done a mediocre job of selling their message that they can truely compete with Lexus. It's just as well because they only have the RL and the MDX in the same space as Lexus.
I'm still happy with my RL after six months, but I'm already looking for my next car. Nothing wrong with the RL, but I have always started looking after about six months.
10-26-2005, 01:16 PM
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Rob L, hey thanks for the feedback on your experience with the Lexus line; it appears that you certainly have had enough of them to be an SME. I have had high performance vehicles all my life, way back when Premium gas was 34 cents a gallon, so that said, we can agree that coming from different generations, perceptions would be way different.. I have no doubt that the '01 IS300 had more h/power than my 330c but the Bimmer was still a better driving, almost perfect 50/50% balanced car to me. The IS300 with that unique dash chronograph display, well, it just wasnt as user friendly to one who was more acclimated with tachs and all types of gauges including boost gauges. Something else I just remembered, in California, the smog laws always require vehicles to add more smog equipment, and that must have an affect on how much h/power gets to the rear wheels too.. Regarding, going by them, that was strictly a personal observation, not meant to be insulting, etc.. I am sure that the new IS model is very quick, but its not good for me visually. Even the new BMW line has changed its look so much that they are no longer as recognizable as they used to be. DanF
10-26-2005, 01:51 PM
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Very interesting reading so far. However, I notice a lot of people comparing "build qualities." Not to be insulting to anyone in any way, but how qualified are we, even the auto magazine/website writers, to assess "build quality?"
Some things are obvious such as panel gaps/tolerances, but how much of the story does that tell? Others talk about the quality of interiror materials and Lexus sets the standards, etc. Again, I must ask about the qualifications of the folks making these statements, and how these "standards" are set.
The real aluminum in the TL was awesome, but got dented from constant contact with the seat bealts. Also, if the RL panel gaps are microns larget than than th GS300 (not sure if they are, just an example), could we even notice by eyeballing? Even so, if cabin wind noise remains equal between the two vehicles, why even care?
Again, not to dis-credit anyone or insult anyone, but the topic of build quality always keeps it interesting.
Some things are obvious such as panel gaps/tolerances, but how much of the story does that tell? Others talk about the quality of interiror materials and Lexus sets the standards, etc. Again, I must ask about the qualifications of the folks making these statements, and how these "standards" are set.
The real aluminum in the TL was awesome, but got dented from constant contact with the seat bealts. Also, if the RL panel gaps are microns larget than than th GS300 (not sure if they are, just an example), could we even notice by eyeballing? Even so, if cabin wind noise remains equal between the two vehicles, why even care?
Again, not to dis-credit anyone or insult anyone, but the topic of build quality always keeps it interesting.
10-26-2005, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by paul_philly
Very interesting reading so far. However, I notice a lot of people comparing "build qualities." Not to be insulting to anyone in any way, but how qualified are we, even the auto magazine/website writers, to assess "build quality?"
Some things are obvious such as panel gaps/tolerances, but how much of the story does that tell? Others talk about the quality of interiror materials and Lexus sets the standards, etc. Again, I must ask about the qualifications of the folks making these statements, and how these "standards" are set.
Some things are obvious such as panel gaps/tolerances, but how much of the story does that tell? Others talk about the quality of interiror materials and Lexus sets the standards, etc. Again, I must ask about the qualifications of the folks making these statements, and how these "standards" are set.
You have made some valid points.
I would observe that there are multiple sets of quality standards.
There are technical standards that an engineering group would use to measure panel gaps and tolerances. For the most part, that's not the set of quality standards this group is focused on.
The other set of quality standards could be referred to as owner or casual standards. You don't need a micrometer to sit on two sets of leather seats and determine that one feels like cardboard and the other like lamb skin.
Personally I'm not going to measure any tolerances, but I know what my expectations are about the quality of wood trim and a professional paint job. Within these two items as examples, the RL has met my expectations.
10-26-2005, 05:18 PM
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Ah boy! I just picked up the Motor Trend buyers guide in the supermarket and it said the RL had great technology but no soul. Which technical measuring device measures soul? 
My measurement of the soul is what I feel like driving around in the RL, and I think its got plenty of soul, even if it isn't a european sedan with reliability problems.
Acura = solid.
My measurement of the soul is what I feel like driving around in the RL, and I think its got plenty of soul, even if it isn't a european sedan with reliability problems.
Acura = solid.
10-26-2005, 05:35 PM
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I guess Acura forgot to pay there November invoice to Motertrend. Car and driver is always paid up. I think RL will have all the sole I can want when I'm ass deep in snow and need to get some milk. Did they think about that. 
10-26-2005, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by waltermac
Ah boy! I just picked up the Motor Trend buyers guide in the supermarket and it said the RL had great technology but no soul. Which technical measuring device measures soul?
I think you have it right.
"Soul" is just a car magazine term for "predicted unreliability".
It's similar to the term people use as an excuse for their old English cars with terrible Lucas electrics, "personality".
I would prefer my car be reliable even if that means it doesn't have soul or personality.
10-26-2005, 09:34 PM
#38
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Basically, "soul" is an intangible and unmeasurable way of giving European cars an edge. To them, no non-Euro car will ever have soul. I'd rather have XM radio, personally.
10-26-2005, 11:20 PM
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Gotta agree that Acura is not up to par with lexus. I cant even get a loaded IS350 for the price of RL these days, and which is compared with the lowest model of lexus to the top of the Acura sedan line. But heck I will take a huge luxury RL over a small scion TC size IS350. I was cross shopping those two cars, eventhough they are not in the same class but they are around the same price. Luckily I didnt pick the is350 or else i will be kicking myself in the butt.
10-27-2005, 12:14 AM
#40
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Funny!
Personally, I don't have anything against Lexus. However, Lexuses don't seem to justify their price premium to me, except for the stellar service at their dealerships.
Personally, I don't have anything against Lexus. However, Lexuses don't seem to justify their price premium to me, except for the stellar service at their dealerships.