neuronbob

In an interview with Automotive News last week, Honda CEO Takeo Fukui acknowledged some issues with Acura (and was disappointed in particularly in the RL) in America. Some limited comments on Acura itself...

Full article....
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../61218005/1528

Discuss amongst yourselves. Jeez, sounds, like they've been reading our debates here. I guess Honda does listen.

Edit: Not to be mean, but with Mr. Fukui's RL comment..... All he has to do is to send his minions over here to Acurazine to figure out what we want in the next RL to make it sell.

Qest

That whole message seems horrible to me. There are many paths Acura can take, but it bothers me that they seem to be unsure which path to take.

It seems to me that Acuras are already excellent cars in their categories and price ranges. The missing component is the dealer network. The dealer network needs to be remade as a true Lexus competitor with palatial showrooms staffed with well-dressed employees who don't feel the need to negotiate on price, but then respond to their paying customers with the respect they deserve.

SPUDMTN

That article really opened my eyes. Here, all along, I thought that the problem with Acura was just within the Acura division, and a marketing problem at that. Boy was I wrong. It seems as though the entire Honda corporation has no direction for the Acura brand. Why is Honda having such a difficult time with this? Why do they have to be so cautious?! Time is wasting, and Acura is slipping further and further.

I'm really starting to lose hope in this company. It's really disappointing, because I really want to feel like Acura is heading in the right direction, but really I think the blind are leading the blind. It's pathetic.

Royal3

what does he think "under our expectations of RL " would be caused by?
Rattle? Shudder at 1500 rpm? Sluggish tranny? build quality? lack of torque at low end? marketing?...
hmm... curious...

jhr3uva90

Maybe Honda should just shut down the Acura brand, start calling them Hondas and call it a day. This excerpt seemed so vague that it doesn't seem they know what to do with the brand. Maybe Honda should just concentrate on alternative fuel vehicles and airplanes instead.

dalieu

wtf?!?! the answers are horrible, i'm with SPUDMTN on this one... the blind leading the blind.

neuronbob

I agree with the sentiment expressed here. I am ashamed to say this, but I don't think Honda has a clue what to do with Acura and, more specifically, the RL. Decontenting it is not going to be the answer. We have been saying what they need to do with the RL--simply offering a V8 option and doing actual marketing would be a start in helping overall RL sales. I couldn't believe he said that not offering options within nameplates was not a direction he wanted to go.

Wow. Unless things turn around, in five years, those of us who love Hondas (I am a 7-time Honda/Acura buyer) and want luxury will have to look to Infiniti, Lexus, or the Euro brands. Most people already do, given the sales of the RL versus its competitors.

Acura is defintely the Apple (mid-1990's) of the automotive world--awesome products, badly priced (except for TL), badly marketed. Maybe we need to start an AcuraEvangelistas (nee MacEvangelistas) site and try to influence things ourselves.

kirbyflorida

I think the RL is a great car.

The problem is marketing, the non standout styling makes this tougher.

jfprl

I agree with most comments here. The RL is a great car and no car is perfect, even Lexus, which I have owned three. Acura needs to market the car with more enthusiasm and needs to improve its dealers. The nearby Honda dealer has a nicer show room and service area. Acura needs to invest in itself, it already has in its cars.

Merry Christmas.

jhr3uva90

Again, the CEO's comments seemed vague. Considering that vagueness, and considering that Acura was barely mentioned in the annual report, I'm really wondering if Acura is a top priority for Honda. Granted, I don't think they want to shut down the Acura brand (although that might be a good idea), this CEO does not seem too pressed to do too much to differentiate Acura. Actions speak louder than words, and I have not seen any action as far as using a different platform for Acura to separate that brand from Honda, instead of just using cosmetics. I don't see Acura ensuring that dealerships have a consistently upscale experience for customers. I don't see Acura promoting their products with product placements. When is the last time you saw a celebrity driving an Acura? I see Acura brand trying to promote itself with some golf tournaments here and there, but those seem to be token efforts. Meanwhile, Honda is crowing about the new Honda Jet. Also, they are bragging about making advances in alternative fuel vehicles.

Something else to take into consideration: the CEO's comments on Acura were just a small part of the overall interview. If you read the whole thing, you get a change to determine what is REALLY important to Honda. They want to bring diesel-based cars to the USA, they want to continue making hybrids, they want to expand manufacturing capacity in Europe. Those are Honda's TRUE priorities, not making Acura the dominant luxury brand. As an Acura driver, I find this disheartening, but as a Honda investor, I agree wholeheartedly.

ostrich

I don't know.... maybe I am just more optimistic than many of you here... to me, when I first read that article last week on TOV, I actually was pretty pleasantly surprised that he acknowledged some of the issues that Acura faces. To me, that was the first step in problem-solving. I think that they have certainly learned a hard lesson from the RL - Acura needs more aggressive styling and performance-based products to compete with the other premium brands. I think that the Advanced Sedan Concept is a clear indication of what they have learned and what they are heading towards in future. It is also clear that Acura knows that it has to distinguish itself much more from the Honda division.

On the other hand, perception is everything - I perceived that to be a fairly frank and honest interview (despite some vague responses, which are to be expected to some extent from a CEO!), but you guys perceived that as pessimistic. Maybe he should have answered differently? I feel that it's a communication issue rather than the lack of direction of Acura.

jhr3uva90

I wouldn't say I was pessimistic about Acura. After all, Acura is still doing better than Audi, Volvo, Jaguar, Lincoln, and Saab. However, I just don't see the luxury car market, particularly the over $45K market, as Honda's top priority. If that market was Honda's top priority, then they would go "balls to the wall" with Acura. To start out with, they would promote the BRAND more heavily as opposed to specific vehicles (similar to Lexus), plus they would devote the resources necessary to create unique platforms just for Acura instead of platform sharing between brands (similar to Infiniti). Most of all, they would make a full-sized luxury sedan V8 or V10 engine so they could really enter the luxury game. But Honda isn't doing that. Instead, they are focusing on the small jet market, which is probably less elastic than the luxury car market. Also, they are focusing on more fuel efficient cars, which is almost the antithesis of the luxury car. Finally, they seem to see the future as alternative fuel engines.

Yes, Honda is putting resources into Acura, but it just doesn't seem to be their priority.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

IMHO Acura needs to have an optional 8cyl engine, manual tranny and sport suspension/package to compete in its respective segment.
Right now- it is considered to be an awesome value- not a "high end" sports sedan like the 550i,e550, M35/45.

jhr3uva90

I'm sure Honda is well aware of what Acura needs. I just don't think it is willing to give it.

Mike_TX

With due respect to Neuronbob's neurons, I think he got trapped in double negatives with his second post. (Soory, Bob. )

Mr. Fukui (or is it Mr. Takeo?) stated:

IOW, he is saying that offering choices and variations is NOT what they plan to do. To me, that means they consider the original RL plan (everything standard) to be the way to differentiate Acura and give it an identity. Personally, I have little quarrel with that, since I like the options, but it's pretty obvious it turned many potential buyers away.

But I've got to say I agree that his answers in general are so vague and uncertain as to be a little scary. If Honda wants to keep Acura as a viable entity, they'd better damn well have some concrete plans for it. It can't be expected to just wobble along on its own and still compete with hungry players like Toyota and Nissan. And in today's marketplace you have to compete or die.

So, I am inclined to agree Honda's heart just isn't in the luxury market. That said, I don't expect them to make a success of it in the long run. And that makes me glad I leased mine.
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MR1

We must always remember that Honda is a tiny company compared to Toyota. They will never have the capital to compete directly with Toyota or Nissan or most other car companies. If they manage to stay independent it will be because they find a profitable niche where they can sell a Car.

neuronbob

Honda is the 9th largest carmaker in the world. But that's just nitpicking. I think they DO have the capital to do what we are suggesting. The issue is more their conservative corporate nature. In addition, they seem to want Acuras to sell by word of mouth. This appears to work for the TL and MDX--can't remember the last time I saw advertising for either one locally, and yet they are all over, just like rabbits multiplying.

Mike, I indeed trapped myself in a double negative there. Oops! I agree with your comment about the vague comments. I am sure Acura will be around in five years but without a strong statement of direction, or even decent marketing, who's going to buy even if the 4G TL or 3G RL are the shiznit? OK, I will, but who else will buy?

jhr3uva90

I fully agree with neuronbob. Granted, Honda has nowhere near the capital that Toyota has or Nissan (thanks to Reneault), but they do have money that they could invest heavily into the luxury car market if they wanted to. However, I don't think they really WANT to. After all, why should they? There is more potential growth in small airplanes than big cars. In fact, Honda has the potential to do to jets what they did to the auto industry 30 years ago. Also, the future is in engines that use LESS fuel, not MORE fuel like a V10 engine. I think they are making the right decisions overall, even if Acura ends up under-funded as a result.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

To me, I find that most of his responses are not too vague. In fact, he answered all of the questions, but he just didn't elaborate on his answers.

kenny5

As I've stated elsewhere, I believe Acura's primary customer base is value-minded people who love cutting edge techno gadgets. While the same people also love cutting edge technology and beefier engines (i.e. performance and v8/v10) and ultra high luxury (such as ventilated seats with massage functions and stretched backseats), they are happy enough with their RL/TL respective performance-luxury level, given the price they paid when compared with the more prestigious nameplates (such as Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and Audi etc). Yet, in the current energy conscious and "green" loving environment, having a car that is environmental and pocket-money (ie. gas price) friendly is also a good thing.

I guess many of us shopped and bought RL and TL (be very honest with ourselves) because of their great value. THe fact that Acura is also a more fanciful nameplates, as compared with the pedestrain Honda, also helps, but not by a lot (as contrasted with Lexus vs Toyota, and Infiniti vs Nissan). I also think Lexus and Infiniti are the prime competitors of Acura, not only because they are all Japanese but also because they pride themselves on reliability, unlike the Germans whose currently productions are not so reliable, as reflected by Consumer Review and other similar car mags.

I think Acura would benefit if it also looks at the high performance/luxury segment if it truly wants to compete with the prestigious nameplates. As configured right now, the RL is not a competitor, nor do I think Acura really thinks that it could compete. Higher performance and luxury requires higher R&D expenditure. If Acura wants to go down that route, it must take a gamble. Whether it would be willing to take a gamble similar to its NSX is something that we all have to wait and see.

The one thing that Acura will benefit immediately, without spending R&D, is to improve the image of Acura dealerships and the quality of customer services. THe prestigious nameplates have been doing that for years, and their customers do not mind paying a bit more for the more pampered and quality-oriented services.

This website (like a handful of others) should be treated as valuable resources for Acura's management because they truly reflect customers (or potential customers) ideas and wishes. Maybe Acura is already paying attention. If the moderators and administrators can make a pitch to Acura corporate, we and Acura will benefit from the (potentially) symbiotic relationship.

jhr3uva90

Good points, especially about the dealerships. The problem is that Acura doesn't own the dealerships, so they need to find a way to give incentives to perform as they should. That being said, Acura dealerships are currently a mixed lot. Some provide a Lexus level of service, and some don't. That is a problem. I was reading a Lexus forum the other day and one member went from an Acura TL to a Lexus GS. The main reason seemed to be the dealership experience more than the actual car experience.

Let's put it another way. In my opinion, the Lexus GS 350 is an inferior car to the Acura RL, but it sells more units than the RL because of: 1) a more prestigous brand name in the eyes of the masses, 2) a superior car buying experience. Maybe Acura can work on this.

Mike_TX

A short stroll through history -

How many of you remember the ad campaign that Acura launched ahead of the introduction of the RL? I thought it was great. It was a "teaser" campaign, touting 300hp, snarky good looks and promises of other exclusive features you could only imagine (which of course, turned out to be SH-AWD, standard Nav, BT, voice recognition, etc., etc.).

They eventually released a little line drawing of the car from a 3/4 frontal view, and it was cool. The lines of the car were slightly exaggerated, but the menacing "eyes" and snarling grill, as well as the stance of the car, made it look absolutely killer. It looked like a cat ready to pounce, and back then (late 2004) my mouth watered at the prospect of 300 throbbing horsepower and an agressive look. I grabbed the line drawing off the net and kept it until I changed out my computer a year or so ago.

Point is - they started out right with the RL. They teased and tempted for months, and I've got to tell you I was ready to buy one as soon as they hit the ground.

But then something happened. First the price came out, and 50 Large was a tough chunk to swallow, no matter how good-looking it was. Then, it turned out to be not quite as good-looking as the line drawing had suggested ... it was a lot tamer than I expected. I began to cool off. Then, the ad campaign seemed to suddenly die. The RL, which had seemed so promising and exciting, slipped into marketing anonymity.

Unfortunately, this was right about the time the Infiniti M hit the streets (early 2005), and the M45 seemed to be all the things the RL had promised, but didn't deliver. I went with the M, and forgot about the RL. It was only after a year and a half with the M that I came back around to the RL, and it wasn't because Acura won me over with marketing. Like most of us, it was because the $50,000 car became a $40,000 car and that made it a smart buy (or lease, actually).

So, I have to say Honda/Acura actually DID start out marketing the RL properly. But for reasons I can't understand, they allowed it to sink into the quicksand of indifferent promotion. And I'm sure the dealer network has screamed bloody murder ever since, but management obviously hasn't listened.

I consider the RL a huge missed opportunity for Acura. Maybe they realized they had screwed up with the V-6 (since an optional V-8 would have made the RL a completely competitive car) and just headed for cover. And if Japanese tradition is still alive and well, someone at Honda/Acura probably quietly pulled out his ceremonial Samaurai sword and shoved it through his midsection.
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dwest1023

My take is, the responses were vague on purpose. Acura does not want to tell the competition its plans.

jhr3uva90

Here's an interesting thought. The CEO talked about the Acura RL, but he didn't talk about the Honda Legend. I wonder how the car is selling in the rest of the world, where it it known as the Legend? I wonder if it met sales expectations in Japan?

NorCalRL

You are right on the mark.

After six new Honda/Acura autos, my wife refused to look at another Acura when it was time to replace her 2001 TL a few months ago. That was based entirely on the experience at the local Acura dealer and specifically our experience since I purchased my RL.

Instead she looked at every different brand and decided on a BMW. It was not an image issue. It was based on the sales and service management of our local Acura dealer and their complete lack of understanding of customer care.

When I'm ready to replace my 2005 RL it is doubtful that I will remain with Acura.

neuronbob

Wonderful point! We spend so much time discussing, but as I note above, perhaps it is time to act.

Here's what I'd like to see.

I would LOVE Dick Colliver of HOA to visit with us on Acurazine--maybe a live, moderated discussion on AIM with us, or an interview with one of the admins or mods. That would absolutely ROCK. We could ask about their marketing and how they solicit opinions from the masses who buy (or don't) the RL. They don't have to give us any trade secrets or anything, but it would indeed give them an idea to hear what real consumers (e.g. us) have to say about the RL as the 3G RL still being designed, and what we think of the dealership network (hit-or-miss).

We are, after all, the leading Acura enthusiast website.

I am actually planning to pen a letter to ACS about how much I like my dealer (with the occasional warts that come up--must be realistic in these letters) and that maybe Acura ought to apply some sort of standard across its entire dealership network.

What do you all think of these ideas?

jhr3uva90

Yup, some Acura dealers are really good, and some are really REALLY bad. There is no consistency.

Mike_TX

I can't believe I typed "grill" in my earlier post. :whips self about the head and shoulders:

Apologies to the Weber Company, Hank Hill and outdoor cooking enthusiasts everywhere. I meant to type "grille", and somehow slipped up. Grilles are for cars, grills are for cooking. Never grill on your grille.

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kenny5

Bob, that is a great idea! In addition to sending a letter (preferably with Acurazine letterhead), also send an email with letter attachment to Acura corporate (including CEO, CFO and SVP of Marketing), together with a hyperlink to this site (and perhaps this particular thread). I believe this will be a mutually beneficial arrangement that will work well both for us (Acura fans and customers), Acurazine (in terms of getting exposure and perhaps funding from Acura), and Acura corporate. As you said, this is the "leading" Acura enthuasiasts website, and should be recognized and rewarded as such.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Let's put it another way. In my opinion, the Lexus GS 350 is an inferior car to the Acura RL, but it sells more units than the RL because of: 1) a more prestigous brand name in the eyes of the masses, 2) a superior car buying experience. Maybe Acura can work on this.[/QUOTE]


I would add to that list the fact that it has RWD/AWD configurations and a V8 option.

jhr3uva90

Lexus separates sales of the GS 430 (V8) from the GS 300/350 (V6). Even if you exclude V8 sales, the V6 version of the GS outsells the RL. Maybe the RWD is a factor, but I guess we won't know unless Lexus starts breaking out AWD sales from RWD sales.

Wouldn't it be GREAT if the RL had a RWD option?

CL6

Seems like every other thread is about why the RL is such a dog. I had high hopes this new CEO would do some great things but after reading that piece I wonder. Acura is getting passed by, except for the MDX.

When I started we could sell:
1. NSX
2. RL
3. TL
4. CL
5. TSX
6. MDX
7. RSX

Now we are down to:
1. MDX
2. RDX
3. TL
4. RL
5. TSX

The RDX has turned out to be a dog, the RL is a dog, and the TL ain't lighting the world on fire anymore. That leaves us with two cars... TSX and MDX. That's a lousy way to run a company. And, personally, I never saw the appeal of the TSX with it now costing almost 30k. 'Acura' blew it in November 2005 when they should have done some great new products. They blew it November 2006 when they should have taken some chances on the RL. Instead we get a Base model with Plood.

jhr3uva90

Is the RDX selling that badly? I wonder why. After all, the RDX, unlike the RL, was designed by Acura in North America, built in North America, to be sold primarily in North America. Does Acura not know the market?

neuronbob

Your input as an Acura salesman is important here. Of the 2007 RL models, are more buying the base or the Tech packages (w or wo CMBS/PAX) in your experience? I have yet to see a post on our board from someone who's purchased a base model.

In any case, the RL is a phenomenal car and there are multiple reasons it's a "dog" in sales. But I am convinced that with adequate marketing (Lexus ads are EVERYWHERE, and I haven't seen an ad in a newspaper or on TV for the RL since it was released two years ago) could improve things a bit.

As far as the RDX goes.....my wife is preferring to look at the 2007 CR-V EX-L model with navi. Jeez, she knows nothing about cars but is cross-shopping Acura and Honda.

CL6

People will try and buy up the 06 before they move to 07 because of the marketing incentive. This will further damage the 07 because people will expect that money to be put in place on the new models. I think Acura got a little too much swagger with the RL. After all, the TL was flying high and selling for near-list when the RL came out.

I sell probably 2-4 RLs per year.

I did not mean to suggest that the RL is, itself, a 'dog' but, rather, that it sells so poorly that this makes it a dog.

I like the RL myself and always have.

The RDX... Acura pumped way too many out and they are asking too much for it. And it sucks down the gas like Jimmy Carter's brother liked to suck down his beer.

neuronbob

WOW.

We understand, that's what I figured you meant.

*hic* Hence, my wife's preference for the CR-V.

dwboston

There needs to be a huge upgrade in the quality and consistency of the customer experience at Acura dealerships. There are too many schitty dealerships with lousy service and ambiance compared to Lexus, BMW, etc. Ever been in a BMW dealership? Acura didn't blow it in 2005 - they "blew" it long before that by watering down the brand with crap like the RSX, the previous bland RL, canning the Legend, etc. And bitching about the base 2007 RL is comical since it's what the dealers wanted. When you can't sell it it's corporate's fault for giving you what you asked for.

But has Acura ever really had a plan? Maybe we're expecting too much here. They fell into success with the MDX (a late entry into the SUV market after years of re-badging Isuzus as Acuras) and hit gold with the current-gen TL. They've never really been about original, ground-breaking cars (save for the original NSX, a niche car) and they are much slower moving than Toyota and Nissan in terms of trends in the industry. We're basically asking for them to be a totally different company than they have been historically. I don't know how successful that will be.

jhr3uva90

The second generation TL (1999-2003) was a success and the current generation TL was doing well up until recently. The MDX has always been a success and I'm guessing the Integras used to sell well (but I could be wrong). Other than the models mentioned, Acura hasn't had any hugely successful models in the past 10 years. However, they have been selling enough cars to be in 5th place among luxury brands in the US. I just wonder if Honda in Japan REALLY wants to do what it takes for Acura to be fourth or higher in the US.

If Honda really wants Acura to be successful in this country (let alone take the brand to Japan), then they will have to improve the dealership experience. In addition, they should NOT make the TL with SH-AWD. It will add weight and cost to the car, and reduce fuel efficiency without making the car more appealing to the masses. Instead, they need to do what Infiniti did and introduce a RWD platform. Of course, a new platform will cost Honda money, and it might not be worth the expenditure for them. In the meantime, Acura will continue to design pretty vehicles in California like the RDX and the TL that use pre-existing platforms. Too bad that won't cut it anymore.

Mike_TX

Talk about hitting nails on the head!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Going RWD will be a easy way but then by that time people will think that Honda is simply copying Infiniti; in other words, become a BMW wannabe. I think if the next gen uses more lightweight materials just like the RL, then the saved weight can compensate for the weight of the SH-AWD. The weight difference between the RL and TL is around 400lbs. Without the weight saving materials, the RL could've been 600lbs more than the TL, ie, SH-AWD = 200lbs, extra features = 200lbs, extra size = 200lbs. But I guess the weight saving materials shaved off like 200lbs. These are just very very rough estimates and by no means are they correct (or even close). But my point is that if Acura is willing to employ more lightweight materials and technologies, then putting in SH-AWD into the TL shouldn't increase its weight by too much. Also, I think they can (or have already done so) simplify the SH-AWD for the next gen TL (similar to what they've done to the RDX) to save even more weight.

That's just my opinion as I really don't think Honda will ever make a RWD sedan (or at least in the near future).