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I am girl if that matters but I really need some advice on how to proceed!
Car Issues/Symptons: Background: The car has be louder at idle (not too loud though but noticeable). I had taken my car to the dealership less than two months ago due to a CEL. They had it for 3 days and didn't find an issue. They were generous and did not charge me a diag fee (because I had brought it in a month previously for a CEL as well)
Current Issue:
1. Two days ago...My RL gas tank was near empty (10 miles to go). I drive less than a mile when I realize my car is not accelerating quickly when I press the gas. So, I immediately get gas (93). It seemed strange the when I put the gas pump in, it felt tight during insertion (please no jokes, I know how it sounds)
3. Once filled up, I thought the car drove better but I pulled into a grocery store parking lot and just drove around because I was afraid of it stalling.
4. As I drove around, my CEL came on (good intuition) and I still do not have quick acceleration.
5. I park the car and turn it off. The car starts right back up, no issue, no CEL. I drive around the parking lot again, no CEL, but I can't really tell if its not accelerating. So I drive on the road and was feeling lucky but then the CEL flashed on and then off. The car still didn't seem like if didn't have much power.
6. I drive to the dealership at 45MPH. No CEL. No Codes. Not much issue driving to dealership. It has been there fore two days.
Dealership response #1:
1. The Service Advisor (SA) called and said the there is a prob with cylinder#3 and it can't be fixed. The tech swap something from 3 to another cylinder. No other information was provided. (I'm sorry, I don't know remember)
2. The SA solution was to replace the engine at $6k. The SA said the parts guy is looking for a used engine and will call back.
Dealership response #2:
1. The Service Advisor (SA) called and said the parts guy found an engine with 73K and total cost would be $7300 or a new engine total cost would be $12K.
2. I asked what exactly was wrong. The SA said there is a leak in Cylinder #3. I asked if there were any codes. They said, it would be best to speak to the tech.
What questions should I ask the tech?
I have been researching all morning what to ask. Can you provide any advice? I have researched the following:
1. Should I ask for a Compression Test and an engine idle Manifold Vacuum Test?
2. Could it be something with the EGR valve with carbon deposits?
3. Someone wrote in another thread "Dealers are quick to toss and engine, if they haven't pulled the heads down they have no idea what happened." What does "pull the heads" mean?
Please help! I LOVE my car! I bought her new and immediately joined Acurazine over 10 years ago. She looks great on the outside and inside!
Thank you in advance and please forgive any typos, wordiness, etc. I am just distraught!!
Good luck on this but perhaps someone with more mechanical/diagnosis ability can chime in but if I hear "leak" in cylinder then I think block is cracked? If thats the case then he is right its no good but Im stretching and will leave your text open to interpretation by some of the gurus here.
At those prices its likely not prudent to replace given cost is more than value?
How many miles on your RL? Has it had regular maintenance? Any prior issues? "not accelerating" could mean lots of things. Any other details you can provide?
If your car is throwing CEL(s) the dealer should be able to retreive it (them) and tell you what they were. Don't let them push you around just because you are a girl.
Last edited by NBP04TL4ME; 02-16-2016 at 09:04 AM.
I forgot so much information!! Thank you all for responding..
--I have 195k miles. I have EVERY service done (mostly at the dealership).
--Previously CEL - I was driving, the light came on. I just took it right to dealership. I didn't see a code (like when my O2 Sensor code popped a year or two ago.) I know, not very helpful.
--I have been reading other posts where engines do not costs as much.
I have not prob paying fair price for repair/engine but I just don't want to be taken advantage of and this is how I feel right now!
1. Definitely get a second opinion as well. Changing a whole engine may make sense to a dealer given his costs especially labor, but a good old garage with lower costs could just fix it.
2. Search google around you for an engine. I looked, you can find even for 1200 with 130k km on it.
The two options given by the dealer are far from being the only options - and they are both obscene.
"tight insertion": did you make sure you didn't accidentally put in diesel or something?
Over in TL land, sometimes lack of acceleration = a bad APP (Accelerator Pedal Position) sensor, can one of the other RL guys chime in if you guys have a similar issue.
Also, it'd probably be prudent to find a new independent mechanic.. Again, screw dealerships..
1. 2nd opinion is lined up for this afternoon after I go to the dealership to "ask questions" and retrieve my car.
2. Tight insertion - I was frazzled when I got the gas pump, but checked again to ensure it was not diesel (no green handle and it was 93 Octane)
Question:
I want to keep her! So any idea what a fair cost effective price would be for engine replacement to include labor?
I'd say 4k MAX. That's with a used motor with decent miles & fresh timing belt job. Acura dealer most definitely isn't the way to go. Well not that one anyways
Engine price plus 3-4 hours. replacing an engine is faster than most jobs. You could easily do the whole thing for starting 2200 depending on mileage on engine. I'd choose an engine mileage depending on your car's condition.
But certainly make sure what the problem is first. try to get a 'reference' mechanic. Someone you trust and who generally knows what they are doing fix their car there etc.
But certainly make sure what the problem is first. try to get a 'reference' mechanic. Someone you trust and who generally knows what they are doing fix their car there etc.
Absolutely this first!
Not sure if you are comfortable doing so, but if you tell us where you are located, members might be able to steer you toward a good reputable shop / mechanic.
I'd say 4k MAX. That's with a used motor with decent miles & fresh timing belt job. Acura dealer most definitely isn't the way to go. Well not that one anyways
Agreed on price estimate above. First and foremost you need to determine if an engine swap is truly warranted or is the dealer just trying to take easy way out
Oh wow a DC breathern and those numbers have to be from 1 of 2 dealers and both are very high from experience and based on our geographic location these guys are prone to price gouging as the market demographic supports it PLUS i HATE TO SAY iM SURE THEY ARE PREYING ON YOU BEING A WOMAN.
I wish I had a indy i recommend but I do not that works on Acuras. Can you try a Honda dealer and get a better price?
I went to the dealership and I must say, the Service Advisor (SA) was very patient with me as I asked a bunch of questions. She even had the tech explain to me what he did which only made me ask more questions. Then the SA got the foreman, who was also very patient with me and he "dumbed-down" the technical jargon for me. He also explained the reasoning for going with a replacement engine vice spending the money to tear the engine apart to find a problem. I am still not opposed to having the dealership do the work. The foreman was very attentive and the SA was doing her best to put me at ease. Call me foolish, but I guess it's like trying to break up with your high school sweetheart. We've been together for sooooo long. Bottom Line: I took my car back from the dealership and sought a second opinion.
Dealership Diagnostic (verbatim from service order):
--Has multiple miss fire on cylinder #3. Swap coil #6 and #3 and still miss fire at same cylinder. It is constant at cool or hot. Will need to perform further diag for leak down test and head gasket leak.
--Check all cylinder compression. cylinders #1,2,4,5 and 6 ranges from 150psi - 200psi. cylinder #3 highest was at 50psi. look into bore with scope and found scratches on cylinder #3 wall. need to replace short block and oil pump is leaking as well. should do t-belt kit along with the job and at 190000 miles plus, recommended sending both head to machine shop. spark plugs are foul and due as well.
Dealership Resolution (from paperwork and verbal): Option #1
-- Replacement of short block. transfer of all parts and tim [it was cutoff, I assume timing belt kit]
-- General ASSY - (p/a on short block)
-- (p/a on sending out head for repair)
-- (p/a on timing belt kit)
-- (p/a on coolant and all other needed seals and gaskets)
-- labor hours: 35
-- approx cost - $7300 (I believe this is what was quoted over the phone the very first time they checked.)
Option #2
-- Replace engine (73K engine)
-- (p/a on timing belt kit)
-- (p/a on coolant and all other needed seals and gaskets)
-- labor hours: 14.8
-- cost: $5425.00 (I got this quote today when I went into the dealership).
Questions/Comments I have for the forum:
1. Any thoughts on the above?
2. what does "p/a" mean?
3. I know option #1 is NOT cost-effective and the dealership SA and foreman stated as much. But, do you think the testing done so far is sufficient?
4. I have said it before in a previous post, I want to keep the car. I really do love driving her. But someone mentioned previously that the 05 RL has many more probs than the later models, so do you think it is worth putting in a new engine in her?
As always, I thank you ALL for your advice and comments.
I bet your piston ring is shot. There is no point in salvaging the block when there are so many pristine ones available, especially in the NE. I don't know exactly what "p/a" means, but my guess is "parts and assembly".
I would ask what their price for the used engine is. I would also ask if they would be willing to use an engine that you source yourself. 14.5 hours at dealership rates (~$110/hour) should not run you more than $1600 in labor. Their quote of $5,000+ means their engine is too expensive.
It's your money and therefore your call. If they won't use an engine you find, then it's up to you, but I would find another competent shop. There is no reason this should cost more than $4000 MAX. To be completely honest, your car is only worth about $6-7k anyway. If you were to go with option one and total it a week later, you would be buying a new car on your own dime.
To answer your question, is it worth putting a new engine in her, I suppose you mean or simply buy another car. Coz putting a new engine here is less costly.
And btw, an indy garage labor is almost half the dealer's rate.
I don't know how much your car is worth today, but I get the feeling it's the same price as the repair. so buying an engine is better. And so, from an indy garage not the dealership. Of course, if the second opinion checks out.
Your other option is to sell it as is, add the repair money, and get a newer RL / lower mileage, etc.
If you're spending more than $5000 to replace the engine, then you might as well get another used RL for a little bit more. And with 195k miles on her, it would be financially irresponsible to do so. I'd take get more opinions before you proceed, but be open to the idea of selling her as is and buying a newer car as hard as that may be.
You guys are the best!! I think my emotions are overtaking my rationality. Thanks for being the objective ones.
I am getting another opinion at an independent shop. I should have an update tomorrow.
The cost breakdown of the dealership engine replacement is as follows:
$2000.00 - 14.8 hour labor
$2700.00 - 73K engine(1 year warranty I believe)
$525.00 - Timing belt kit
$200.00 - Coolant and gasket, etc.
Also, I have been reading ALOT about wet tests, head gasket tests, leak down... GEEZ!!
I like this guy's video about low compression and what tests to do next. GO TO 14:58 Timestamp:
The indy shop had my car this morning and it sounds like they tested it all morning!! The bottom line is that I do NOT need a new engine.
Diag:
1. Performed a compression test and this time they found the following:
cylinders 1,2,3,5,6 were at 200psi. I think Cylinder 4 was at 235lb (I can't read my own writing.)
2. They conducted a test by taking a new coil/spark plug and one-by-one put it in one cylinder leaving the remaining cylinders with the original coil/spark plug. Unfortunately, I didn't write down why that test was significant.
3. They test drove the car at various tests points. They appeared to be impressed with car despite her 10 year age. I think he mentioned that he expected the psi to be lower.
4. They checked the ignition coils and spark plugs. They found that all my spark plugs were only finger tight and they all need to be replaced. The dealership noted that my spark plugs were "foul". I wonder if they didn't tighten then back up after their diag.
Resolution:
1. Replace all the coils and spark plugs.
2. Fuel air/induction service
3. Oil change because it only had 2 quarts of oil in it? WTF? The dealership did an oil change late December!
4. Transmission Fluid Service
5. Other maintenance that was not high priority which will wait.
They emailed me a very detailed color report that included pictures of my various car parts needing repair. That was pretty cool.
I know I didn't capture everything and may have not capture some items correctly, but I am pleased.
That shit pisses me off. I really hate to say it, but you were totally setup to be ripped off because you were a woman driving a $50k car in for a diagnostic. I'm glad you found a shop willing to take the time and be honest with you.
Yeah, i was pissed! When I pick up my car tomorrow, I plan to have a few words with the dealership.
I didn't feel comfortable posting the report with my personal information, but I took some screenshots of part of the report and the pics that are linked inside of the report. I do realize this report is a marketing tool (with some canned responses), but I like it! I believe the service tech said, they could show in person, however, I was at work, so the pics and telephone convo was good enough for me.
There is nothing out of the ordinary there for a 190k mile Legend. Take care of her (including a new timing belt within the next 30k miles), and she will run to 300k no problem.
damn screw the stealerships....I wonder if they do any wanky shit when i take her there for oil changes. Its 65 including tax for mobil 1 and a free exterior car wash. if it was any more i wouldnt take it there and they give me a report about all the shit like posted above.....Hope they dont try to loosen my sparkplugs! Glad you got help peeps here are awesome and helpful
Flushing tans is not recommended by Honda, though. They wouldn't know that, because car is rare. Most people in this forum prefer to do it manually, right guys?
You're welcome. Glad we could be of help and hope things go better for you from here on.
Originally Posted by thomask
Flushing tans is not recommended by Honda, though. They wouldn't know that, because car is rare. Most people in this forum prefer to do it manually, right guys?
Honda has a point there, my 2 cents below.
Originally Posted by Blues Legend
IIRC, a tranny oil change at each of the next 3 services gets rid of most of the old shit in there.
What my experience taught me especially since i found out my Audi for example doesn't even have a dip stick for transmission oil, they say to leave that oil in there for life, and from feedback from others who once they flushed the transmission have had gremlins crawl up on them, I can safely recommend to not flush but bleed the transmission of 3-5 liters depending on total size and replenish with fresh oil.
So u're not flushing and keeping the constituents that the tranny has gotten used to while working, and not depending on old oil that may no longer lubricate properly.
Best gremlin prevention recipe for trannies i can think of today!
Sounds like you found a mechanic / shop for future maintenance and repairs.
Warranty coverage is best done with the dealership. But when a car is at that age and mileage, a good non dealer mechanic is often a wiser choice and better value. And when you find a mechanic you trust, bring him donuts, buy him pizza and add him to your Christmas Card list. There are many who specialize in Honda / Japanese products and many for the Mercedes / BMW post warranty owner as their dealer service expense is astronomical compared to a Honda. And I bet 50% of their new customers come from experiences as yours.
What they describe is what we once called a 'tune up'. But modern cars are expected to last 100,000 miles before needing that level of service. And your car had a timing belt @ 107K miles, and now you are almost another 100K miles down the road. Sounds typical and acceptable to me. You describe no episodes or evolving symptoms where such damage could have been done to your block.
I certainly can relate to your bond with the car. Although I love my new ride (and only car I found worthy as a replacement for the RL), my 10 years with the RL are missed. The RL is a noble car, and if properly cared for (as you describe) it is worth the investment to do these types of repairs. It will continue to serve you well.
Get her fixed, then treat both of you to a detail and report back with pics.
Flushing tans is not recommended by Honda, though. They wouldn't know that, because car is rare. Most people in this forum prefer to do it manually, right guys?
Great catch!
DO NOT let them flush your transmission. You should only ever drain and fill a Honda transmission. You will only get a little over 3 quarts out of a drain, and the RL only holds 8. I can't imagine where they got 12.
I would also stick with Honda ATF. This is very debatable, and there probably isn't anything wrong with a synthetic ATF. However, there is definitely nothing wrong with Honda ATF, and Honda transmissions can be special.
That shit pisses me off. I really hate to say it, but you were totally setup to be ripped off because you were a woman driving a $50k car in for a diagnostic. I'm glad you found a shop willing to take the time and be honest with you.
I couldn't agree more. There is no reason for taking advantage of a woman or even a man who doesn't know about cars. Well other than lining the pockets of the dealership owner's pockets.
Originally Posted by TampaRLX-SH
Sounds like you found a mechanic / shop for future maintenance and repairs.
Warranty coverage is best done with the dealership. But when a car is at that age and mileage, a good non dealer mechanic is often a wiser choice and better value. And when you find a mechanic you trust, bring him donuts, buy him pizza and add him to your Christmas Card list. There are many who specialize in Honda / Japanese products and many for the Mercedes / BMW post warranty owner as their dealer service expense is astronomical compared to a Honda. And I bet 50% of their new customers come from experiences as yours.
What they describe is what we once called a 'tune up'. But modern cars are expected to last 100,000 miles before needing that level of service. And your car had a timing belt @ 107K miles, and now you are almost another 100K miles down the road. Sounds typical and acceptable to me. You describe no episodes or evolving symptoms where such damage could have been done to your block.
I certainly can relate to your bond with the car. Although I love my new ride (and only car I found worthy as a replacement for the RL), my 10 years with the RL are missed. The RL is a noble car, and if properly cared for (as you describe) it is worth the investment to do these types of repairs. It will continue to serve you well.
Get her fixed, then treat both of you to a detail and report back with pics.
The unanswered question is whether the OP is going to let her dealership (former??) have it!!!
02-16-2016, 08:44 AM
Bottom Line: I took my car back from the dealership and sought a second opinion. 
The unanswered question is whether the OP is going to let her dealership (former??) have it!!!