vp911

The sales manager at my dealer *speculated* that the s2000 would be redone into an acura car and the rsx would go to honda (as it is in the price range of honda cars). That would be sweet

jhr3uva90

The car business requires lots of capital, not just for design/engineering but also to modify manufacturing plants to produce cars. Creating a common platform helps to spread those costs. One reason, in my opinion, why Honda has yet to make a V8 engine, or a full-size rear-wheel drive car, or both is because of the capital it takes to make such things happen. Nissan got a hefty cash infusion a few years back when Renault bought a controlling interest in the company. We are starting to see the results of that cash infusion now, especially in the Infiniti vehicles. Unless some other company is willing to invest large sums of money in Honda, we might have to wait awhile to see either a V8 engine or a large RWD car. Personally, I think Honda might get there eventually, but it will take years. In the meantime, Honda is doing very well with what it has. It has stretched the Global Mid-sized Platform in many directions, including wonder niche products like the new Ridgeline and our beloved Acura RL.

eaRL

Well, I don't know if I would say it sucks but it sure had the potential to be a disaster if they had not engaged in some serious discussions about ways to
control the weight distribution. The front wheel drive 2004 Acura RL had a 58/42 distribution. After making sweeping changes in the car for 2005, including AWD and 300 horses, the weight distribution is essentially the same at 59/41.

An Audi A6 3.0 has pretty much the same dimensions as the RL, it's weight distribution is 61/39 with only 220 hp.

eaRL

I'm sure Renault did pump cash into nissan but the most important thing he did was change the way nissan ran their business. From what I have read about Ghosen he is a azz kicker and he is not afraid to change things. I'm sure this contributed to nissan's recent successes.

I'm not so sure that Honda is looking for a cash infusion or thinking in those terms. They have a successful car division, thanks in part to people like us, as well as motorcycles, small engines and marine products. I hope they do eventually produce a RWD vehicle with a V8. They will only do it when they are sure it will be a success and not a minute sooner.

jhr3uva90

Hear hear! Amen!

mrdeeno

I think Honda HAS money to invest in new technologies like RWD and v8 cars. they spent a lot of money creating the s2000 and NSx, didn't they? They have been consistently making money, unlike Nissan who was losing money before Renault and Ghosn came along. They are in the position where they don't need a large cash infusion to develop new technologies like RWD or V8's, but they just choose to focus their sites on other things, like hybrids and fuel cells (and jet engines).


Even they CEDED that RWD is a necessity for better handling when they introduced the NSX and S2000. I think it's just a corporate culture thing that prevents them from building a v8 or other RWD platforms.

catsailr

I think you are right. It took Honda a while to come out with the V6. Their original philosophy was that a 4 cylinder was all that was needed.

SPUDMTN

I, like everyone else on here, would really like to see a V8 Honda, be it RWD or SH-AWD. I don't see the need right now, but I see the incredible want for it. My guess is that the new RL is checking to see how warm the water is in this new ocean. In typical Honda fashion, they are being very cautious to enter such a competitive and fickle market as this. Right now, my guess is that they are continuing to let Infiniti and Lexus/Toyota be the guinea pigs in such a competitive market. They will identify the mistakes and successes of each respectable company, and then build a jack-of-all-trades vehicle (like the RL, MDX, Ridgeline, Odyssey, etc...)

We all know that Honda/Acura makes incredibly well-rounded, reliable, and balanced vehicles. To do this, however, they must observe. But let's face it--the ultra-lux and high-performance midsize luxury segment are not quite as vital or profitable at this moment when compared to the SUV and truck market. If the V8 midsize lux market or the ultra lux market were on fire (and if RL sales were on fire like the MDX once was, and still kind of is) I'd bet we'd see an entry into both of these segments in the near future--that's just not the case.

Further, a vehicle can be the best out there in its class and still not sell, simply because of its brand/poor marketing. Take the Volkswagen Phaeton. Not sure how many of you have experienced the Phaeton, but it is an amazing vehicle. This car is much what the W140 Mercedes-Benz S-class used to be--a vault like, over-engineered (in a good way), rolling masterpiece. The interior is (in my opinion) the best in its segment. The powertrains are great as well. The price is right on for what you are getting. The features and attention to detail are overwhelming. But why won't people buy the thing? The VW badge. Acura is capable of creating a top-notch premium luxury vehicle, though I do not think their image is good enough yet. Acura must first pursue an image of un-compromised luxury and performance. Through marketing and advertising Acura can acheive this...and they must before they decide to enter the midsize V8/ultra-lux market.

Honda/Acura is always late to the game--but when they finally take the chance, they confidently dive in and drastically change the market. I'm sure that would/will be the case if/when they enter these markets.

msu79gt82

Agree - good post. The above line reminds me of the vast majority of the early/original trade-mag reviews for the MDX.

psteng19

Not really. Nissan had RWD and V8's well before Renault stepped in.
All Renault did was provide enough backing to prevent Nissan from going under.
Maybe it was your wording but you made it sound as if Nissan was only able to develop RWD/V8 platforms because of Renault.

mrdeeno

With big risks come bigger rewards. If honda is too cautious and let others take risks in order for them to observe what others did wrong or right, they are already one step behind, especially when the other automaker has succeeded.

If that is Honda's philosophy, they will never be a LEADER in the industry, but a FOLLOWER. After observing, they may build a better truck, SUV, car, or whatever, but at what cost? When they came to the market with the NSX, no one had anything that could compete. When they came to market with the original Legend, same thing. WHen they came to market with the s2000, same thing. These are successes that they had because they DIDN'T follow. Then they rested on their laurels and slowly the competition put out cars could compete. This is the position they should be in...others following Honda and Honda trying to stay a step ahead. But they don't try to stay a step ahead (NSX, Last gen. RL, cars that got VERY old).

And now instead of being a leader, they put out cars that merely compete in each segment instead of leading it in any way. The Ridgeline and Element are probably the only current cases that they didn't follow but led the way by. The RL, MDX, RDX, TL, TSX, Accord, Civic, Odyssey, etc. are all competitors in their respective segments, but wouldn't it be better if they were THE leader instead and let the others try to catch up?

You can't be a leader by following.

SPUDMTN

I believe Honda has become a leader through following. They perfect designs and understand the market more through how others have done business. Take the MDX and Odyssey for example. They by no means created the market segment--instead, they were late to the game and caught everyone off guard. They literally sent all the other manufacturers back to the drawing boards. And now the other manufacturers are exhausted trying to hit the sweet spot that Honda has. Another example is the Accord (or even the Camry). Toyota and Honda are by no means leaders (except in sales) when it comes to technology and design--both are notorious for blatant copies of European designs. And I really think that they come ahead when they out-do what has already been done.

The key (like I've already said) is perfecting. Honda is notorious for really polishing well established ideas. And through this, I believe they lead through following. It's like the tortoise and the hare. We all know who wins.

mrdeeno

I know that story...the tortoise wonders around slowly and some Chinese guy comes buy, picks him up, takes him home, and COOKS HIM!

As for the hare, he takes a nap and a hunter comes buy and unloads a 12-gauge in his hare(y) ass.


but seriously...if the hare had not taken a "rest", he would have won. This is where Honda messed up...after coming out with great cars (Integra, Legend, NSX, S2000), they decided to take a "rest".

Unlike the hare, a smart car manufacturer does not take "rests" and continually improves their models and offerings and not letting their cars sit around for 7-10 years with MINOR improvements like honda did. Honda took "rests" while the other car manfuacturers kept moving.

If Honda can be successful by PERFECTING other designs, then they shoudl go right ahead. But are they really doing that? Take the RL for example. The interior is probably the only part they "perfected" compared to the others. SH-AWD...that's just another way of "compensating" for lack of rwd in a rwd market. Are people REALLY influenced to buy the RL for SH-AWD? If so, then the RL should be outselling everyone else since it's the only car that offers it. Same with trafficlink. Same with a 300hp v6. Instead of focusing on what would REALLY make the car popular and sell, they tried to "compensate" or to do things "differently" in order to be merely a competitor...not a leader.

A lot of times they get it right, especially dealing with higher-volume lower-cost models (MDX, TL, TSX, Accord) where "VALUE" is important and the competition is no where near perfect. But other times they fall flat on their asses (RL) where they have no idea what the market considers perfection.

the moral of the tortoise and the hare story is different for me than for others...the moral for me is that if you're better and faster and ahead in the race, don't be taking naps.

eaRL

The Phaeton is everything that you said. It's every bit as luxurious as its cousin, the Audi A8. The fact is most people will not fork over that kind of cabbage for a VW and not because they think VW could never build a car as good as the Phaeton. Base price is $66,950. Doesn't sound like the right price for the people's car to me.

I don't think that Honda/Acura has always been late to the game. They created the Japanese upscale/luxury market. There was no market for these types of cars in the United States until Acura arrived. Ofcourse at some point their formula stopped working for them and they lost marketshare.

msu79gt82

I thought this was an RL vs. M35 comparo thread - or at least "Getting a M35" thread.

jhr3uva90

The hare took a rest? You mean the way Infiniti debuted the Q45 in 1990 and then "Rested" for the rest of the decade?

mrdeeno

Yes, and they were in the same position that Acura was in.

Then Ghosn came along and gave them some ass-chewing to get moving again.

mrdeeno

Acutally, it's "Getting a M45".

But whatever.

If Acura wanted to "Perfect" the RL, they would

1) Keep the interior, but maybe add a couple inches in the back.

2) Split the difference in quickness between the M35 rwd and M45...or at least be as quick as the M35 rwd.

3) Make 18" GOOD LOOKING rims standard with 19" optional with decent rubber.

4) At least offer cooled seats and backup cam.

If they did all those things, I'd be all over it.

SPUDMTN

Your suggestions would make the RL even better. I wish they would have kept the showcar's 20" wheels though...they looked really beefy and nicely filled their wells.

Doesn't that look nicer?

jhr3uva90

Isn't it amazing how far the Infiniti brand has come in just 4 years? Who would have thought? And they did it with a "bottom up" approach, starting with their least expensive model.

jhr3uva90

Cooled seats, yay! But if they made the RL bigger, wouldn't it also be heavier, which would slow the car down?

mrdeeno

Nah, they could just make the trunk slightly smaller so there's more legroom in the back. Either that or extend the wheelbase which would probably add weight because they have to extend the sh-awd contraption.

But that's besides the point. The car just needs more torque. Or get over the MPG fetish and gear the speed outta the sucker. Or add a 6th gear to the sucker.

They added a 5th gear to the last gen. TL shortly after intro (It had 4 gears for 1 year?), so why can't they just make a new tranny with 6-speeds for 2006 or 07? Hey, if they won't engineer us a v8, at least engineer us a tranny that'll make it faster!

eaRL

The interior in the RL is about as good as it gets. They would definitely need to leave the center stack, navigation screen and the control surfaces intact, including the voice recognition, handsfree link, etc.

They would have to get pretty creative to add more room in the back. They had to sacrifice too much real estate in the trunk as it is.

The hump in the rear center seating position should be eliminated. I know it's there because of the propeller shaft but it really is a nuisance for the passenger and the driver.

Anything else would be performance related; Brembos on all four corners. Make the 18" wheels and tires standard, also a better looking wheel design. Remote start would be nice. Maybe put some more effort into reducing the weight of the car and/or adding 30-40 additional horses but that would mean an increase in displacement and 2 more cylinders which is not an option on any Acura.

There is an optional feature on some of the Audis that I think would be great, a solar sunroof. If sensors in the sunroof detect that it is parked in the sun, it runs the fresh air fan periodically to move the hot air out of the car.

jhr3uva90

Yes, I remember when the TL went from 4 to 5 gears when they went from the 1999 model to the 2000 model. I thought all of the cars based on the Global Mid-sized Platform with V6 engines all had basically the same transmission? That's why some Accords were recalled along with the TL's and CL's that had faulty transmissions, I thought.

Of course, the solution is to just create a new full-size, RWD-based platform that can support a V8 engine as well as a V6. That could make a whole lot of people happy.

mrdeeno

Yeah, all the global midsized cars had the same AUTO tranny. But they can still engineer another tranny to use on that platform (6spd auto...hello Acura? Anybody home?).

I'm moving UP from a cl-s...so unless I'm getting an SUV or truck, I want my next CAR to be at least as quick as a stock cl-s.

jhr3uva90

You're moving up from the CL Type S? Great, so did I! In the real world, it is hard to perceive the difference in acceleration speed between the CL Type S and the RL. However, there is a huge difference in HOW the two cars accelerate. I don't know about you, but my CL Type S had a very annoying case of torque steer. I got high-performance tires that offset the problem a bit, but it still existed. I have not had that torque steer problem on the RL at all, even with the mediocre OEM tires that comes with the car. I think that's really important, especially considering that I have to simultaneously accelerate hard and turn left every morning.

And who knows? Maybe they'll eventually put a stick shift in the RL?

Qatar

Well, hi again
After 3 weeks of M45 ownership, i decided to return it and get my RL back and i was lucky enough that it was still sitting in the Infiniti dealer lot.
The M45 is purly performance and lacked many things, like heated side mirrors and the worst part ever, a user friendly Navigation system.
I was in Baltimore city last week and missed my exit 3 times in a row because of the complicated navi system which i hated the most.
I read the owners manual and still couldn't figure out how to adjust driver memory settings as every time someone moves the seat or side mirrors, i had to adjust them again, just like the problem i had with my 04 TL when it kept losing the driver's configuration.
I travel a lot and consider a navi system a must have, and i told the folks at Infiniti from the begining that the Navi didnt look like it can do much, but they said that it surpassed Acura, well after owning the vehicle, i don't think that it even compares to a 2003 TL's navigation system.
Other than that the vehciel was owesome and turned a lot of eyes, unlike my RL.
I got a hit for returning the vehicle, but i dont care, i'll keep my RL untill Honda wakes up and come with something better.

P.S:
You guys don't know what you have to go through to save or retrieve a name from a address book.

jhr3uva90

Sorry things didn't work out with the M45. It is truly an impressive car. However, welcome back!!! I'm sure you'll enjoy your RL.

You made some good points about the navigation system. Car magazines often compare the merits of driving the car, but they don't really discuss the computer-based gadgetry within the car. I don't know if it is because those car journalists are technophobes or what. However, I think it makes car magazine reviews somewhat misleading. What do you think?

Qatar

Here is my personal input from owning the M45
The RL and M45 are two different vehicle and there is no comarrission at all as the M45 feels more like a sport coupe than a sport sedan, where the RL feels more like a touring sedan that can perform like a sport sedan (with modifications).
1- Infiniti navi system suck big time (better not have than have)
2- Infiniti doesn't support Onstar
3- Surround sound in the M45 is owesome and somehow better than Acura's, but sometimes or actually most of the time the shoulder speaker gave me headache, so i disliked their position.
4- Siruis Satellitle radio suck and i hated it, compared to XM, well Acura made a clever dicision.
5- Memory seat kept losing driver configurations.
6- No heated side mirrors.
7- No daytime running lights
8- The adaptive headlight system in the M is not as good as the RL's, in fact i didn't see a big difference when they turn, as appose to the RL's where you can tell when the light turns
9- Fuel consumption was no big deal with me, but it sucked anyhow.
10- Lane departure warning system is useless, because the beep that sounds while the vehcile is moving out of lane without a turn signal is not loud enough (assuming that the driver fell asleep, its not loud enough to alert him)


Well, other than those mentioned points, the vehicle was pretty good.

AmuseLegend

Qatar; How much have you spent on your "venture"?

mrdeeno

So is there a "slightly used" M45 in the infiniti lot now?

I wonder how much it is going for?

RLer

This is really encouraging news for someone on the wall. I am getting quotes from Acura dealers and Inifiniti dealers around here. But I think the decision is much easier now. I test drove both M35 and RL, totally agree the M and RL are two different cars. Price however seems to be more on the M side without getting all the pkgs. Equally equipped i think RL is a better deal.

msu79gt82

And you didn't know these about the M45 BEFORE you bought Almost everything in your list of 10 is basic research (Q & A) stuff. Number 5 is a problem that could have been addressed/fixed (or perhaps user error); in any event the other 9 are publicized and discussed features.

Qatar

I knew all about them before i made my purchase, but its just my personal input where the RL looks better.

mrdeeno

Yeah, what's up with that?


let's see:

This should've been realized with an extended test drive or several test drives.


This could've been known before entering the dealership


I'll give you that one. But also, the DVD-A player is in the center console (also for DVD videos) rather than being incorporated into the 6disc changer.


Infiniti gives you the choice to choose XM or Sirius, and from what I've been reading Infiniti has been pushing XM so most of the cars have XM instead.


Simple warranty problem.


That's news to me...from the Infiniti website:

"Dual heated, power outside mirrors with reverse tilt-down "


Being an opponent of DRL as I ride motorcycles, this doesn't affect me.


I'll give that to you too...you wouldn't be able to realize this until driving the car more often than test drives.

No big deal.

Agreed...it probably wouldn't help if someone fell asleep, but then again there are A LOT of people out there I WISH had this feature in their cars!


But seriously, I don't see any problems that would merit returning the car for an RL. I think there's actually more to it than posted why you returned to the RL, probably something strongly SUBJECTIVE like the way it drove or the way it felt or whatever. But then again, if you have the money and it's your money, then I agree you should choose the car YOU WANT to live with.

mrdeeno

Ok, just confirmed that the M does indeed have outside mirror heaters...thye are linked with the rear-defroster so there's no separate switch.

dseag2

I'm really amazed. I traded my '05 RL after 5 months for my '06 M45 Sport. I now have 4,000 miles on the car and have never once wanted to switch back.

I agree with Qatar that the navigation system in the RL is far superior to any others out there, but I rarely used it since my time is spent commuting back and forth to work. The times I have used the M navigation system it has worked fine. None of the tech goodies on the M is quite as intuitive as on the RL, but it's no big deal for me. (One of the options I purchased the RL for was NavTraffic, but unfortunately it never worked.) The thing I like most about the M is the totally effortless acceleration at any speed. That really has practical value in the everyday commute in Miami. It's what I affectionately call the "idiot obstacle course".

I guess everyone has their own needs/wants. For me, the RL was sweet but the M hits the sweet spot.

AcuraGT-3

So u bought 2 50k cars in less than a year. but IMO, your nitpicking here. No car is perfect.

And personally, knowing a base M45 sport is 50k and a loaded RL is 50k, its almost a no-brainer, the M45>RL

DCRL

Funny how these things go, I see the same equation, only a little different:

Loaded RL > Basic M45

jrock65

Well, technically he "bought" 3 times. But got 2 cars.