hondamore

gitchy (git CHEE)(adj) - (1)the latest "in" thing or fashion. (2)Synonym for cool, rad, spiffy and neato. (3)trendy, "with it", cool.

I meant gitchy not gimmicky although gimmicky is probably more appropriate.

eaRL

I'm glad you're doing what you feel is right. That is most important; it's your decision. Also, you bring up a good point about the Japanese market versus the American market for accessories.

But I keep going back to the fact that you bought the car and then found all of these things you disliked about it six months later and Honda and Acura are to blame. It would almost seem that you feel like Acura built you the wrong car and not that you chose to buy yourself the wrong car that Acura built.

psteng19

Is that an actual word in the English dictionary?
I don't have a hard copy handy but MW and Dictionary.com couldn't find it.

hondamore

Gitchy is a slang word which is why I placed it in "quotation marks". I chose "gitchy" over gimmicky so I wouldn't offend those forum members who consider the rear view camera a valuable and necessary automotive accessory. The word gimmicky carries the connotation that the device is impractical or ineffective which is not the sentiment that I wished to convey. In the future, knowing that my use of the English language is being graded, I'll use the term "trendy".

SPUDMTN

A good point...

Qatar

I didn't dislike my RL, it simply wasn't the car for me, if i didn't purchase the s2000 i would have changed my RL a long time ago.
The M45 is a better vehicle in performance and options, but its nothing more than the RL, and i think Honda should reconsider many of their policies to keep up with the competition and i believe many options should be available if poeple are willing to pay.
i Still don't understand why Honda will have three different vehicles with many different options (JDM Legend, US RL and Canadian RL) when they can make the same vehicle with different options, i'm personally willing to pay if its offered.
Infiniti know how to play the game, and i'll be back to Acura once they have something comperable and for now, i don't see Acura changing anything in the coming two years.
The new Toyota Avalon Limited is equipped with many features which the RL lack and i point to one of them again (cooled seats)

eaRL

Fair enough. Cooled seats are not an option you would associate with the Avalon and they are not an option on any Acura vehicle as far as I know.

You mention that Infiniti knows how to play the game, and you are 100% correct. The game is; The M35 AWD has an MSRP of $42,600 which seems like a great price for this car and it would be a great price if it included all of the features and creature comforts on the RL. However, if you add XM satellite radio (+$350), you must add the Journey Package (+$2750) which upgrades the stereo to an 8-speaker Bose and adds the rearview monitor, HIDs and pre-crash tensioners on the seatbelts. Note that you can add the Journey package ($2750) without adding the XM satellite radio ($350) but not the other way around. Now you are up to $46,310. But, you also want the navigation system. The navigation system is $2000 and the price of the car is now $48,310.

After adding $5500 in options to the M35 AWD we are now in the realm of the RL as far as price and features are concerned but we are still missing some features that are avaiable on the RL. We also have a few features on the M35 AWD that are not available for the RL. In general we are apples to apples as far as features and price. But the ability to add some options and not add others on the M35 AWD is hampered by the fact that in some circumstances, lower priced options require you to add packages that are eight times the price of the individual option you really want. The RL, as you have mentioned, really has no options left to buy because they are put on the car when it is manufacured. I hesitate to say included here because these features do put the RL's MSRP at $49,100.

Now the only part of the game left to play is to determine if the options you want on the M35 AWD are worth the extra money you will have to spend on required packages. If the price of the car is not an issue then you have to determine if you want the features you are about to be forced to add.

I'll play devil's advocate and mention that the RL is manufactured with most of the features available as options on the M35 and that may turn some people off because it appears as though their options are being limited. But I have noticed that this has a certain psychological affect on people who ride in my car. They always want to know; How much extra was the navigation? How much extra was the bluetooth handsfree? What about DVD-audio? AWD? It's very interesting to see their reaction when I tell them Acura sells only one model of the car and a few dealer installed options. Some people automatically equate that to getting more car for their money.

msu79gt82

Don't forget to include the ~$2400 to upgrade the RL to 18" wheels (standard on the M35x) and put decent rubber on the car. I have noted that most RL owners consider the OEM tires to be crap and an upgrade to be more of less mandatory.

eaRL

touché...Acura almost completely dropped the ball on the wheels and tires and I think Qatar mentioned that. The wheel/tire setup made the car feel a little soggy at times. No snap off the line at all. The tires in particular were a disappointment.

I have the 18" OEMs on my RL. That was the first order of business after I bought the car. I spent right at $2000 for wheels and tires but $2400 still sounds like a good deal depending on the dealer and the tires you go with. There are people paying upwards of $2400.

psteng19

By the same token, one may view Acura's pricing strategy as one big, all-inclusive option, which includes items that they do not necessarily want.

Real-time traffic not available in your city? Don't want NAV? XM?
These are options you can't undo.

mrdeeno

Not only is Acura MAKING you pay for things you don't want or need, but it's also a problem when it comes to attracting people to the showrooms.

A base non-optioned M35x is a lot less than an Acura RL (msrp). Unless people really do their research, they won't know that they can get an RL for around $45k.

So instead they go to the infiniti showroom and check out the car because its so much cheaper. They like it and they see the option prices make the car very comparably priced to the RL. But since thye're already at the infiniti dealer, they might as well buy the car and actually think the RL is more expensive.

I think that is where Acura is losing customers...the ones that are SHOPPING for the lowest price but still end up paying about the same and sometimes more than an RL.

SPUDMTN

This must explain why Acura owners, as a whole, seem to be more educated and knowledgeable about their vehicles. Notice these boards--most people on here are highly educated and know their stuff. The RL (and Acuras in general) is an intelligent vehicle...a smart person's car, if you will.

I know that this will come up, so I'll beat everyone to it--I've made an obscenely huge generalization, but think about it...am I too far off the mark? We know that customers are not buying for all out brand cache or because they're the most beautiful vehicles on the road or because they have the most gee-whiz luxury features. Instead, owners have come to the conclusion that the RL is the best overall package through research and thoughtful comparison.

Now, am I too far off the mark?

mrdeeno

I kinda have to disagree with you. You can't make a generalization about acura owners by observing these boards. The MAJORITY of acura owners are probably NOT on these boards. As fro the level of education...we'll never know. and I've also seen some really DUMB people on these forums, so let's not go there.

I sure hope they don't start measuring education by the cars we decide to buy.

As for "owners have come to the conclusion that the RL is the best overall package through research and thoughtful comparison", you're probably right...that's why they chose the RL, because it was right FOR THEM.

But it's difficult to say what is "BEST" because what is "BEST" is an opinion and everyone's opinion is different. And even then someone who buys an RL may not think it's "best". Case in point: Qatar.

msu79gt82

I don't see how you got by that cheap unles there was a trade in allowance of some sort for the 17" wheels/tires. The cheapest I have seen the 18" OEM online is for $1575 and new rubber is easily $200 per tire moiunted and balanced - thats where I came up with the $2400 figure. I have more or less worked a deal with my dealer to get them for less by allowing for a trade allowance regarding the old 17s. But to outright but the 18" rims and tires for less than $2400 is a good deal. The Acura MSRP for the 18s is $1928.

msu79gt82

Its an issue with me. I have no desire at all for OnStar. I live in Houston so I can live with NavTraffic since it is available; but officially its only in 21 cities (although I think a 22nd is about to be added). Not all NavTraffic cities are created equal in services either from what I understand. In reality I don't really need the NavTraffic feature ESPECIALLY since its a $15 per month feature (incl XM).

psteng19

To me, Acura's pricing "strategy" is more of a cost-savings measure.

It costs them far less to produce one standard model with no options than configuring each to meet the buyer's needs.

The reason they probably aren't doing this with the TSX and TL is because forcing NAV to be standard will drive the prices too high in their respective markets.

Just my guess

mrdeeno

Yeah, but then why didn't they include some standard features that are available on the JDM Legend...the rL and legend ar probably built side by side in Japan.

jhr3uva90

My guess is that Honda could not have all of the JDM Legend's features in the Acura RL and still make its intended price point. Shipping costs and exchange rates are factors. Also, the night vision center does not work if the temperature reaches a certain heat, although I forgot what that temperature is, which would make it inoperable in warmer North American climates.

lindros2

I was quoted $2500 by my dealer - I can't stand the 17's so I may end up doing this...

msu79gt82

If you order the car from Acura with the OEM 18's they will charge you the rim MSRP of $1928 + rubber - or whatever price you agree to (in your case $2500) and they will KEEP the 17s w/ rubber. That is a bad deal!! If you pay them that $2500 I would insist that they let you keep the 4 17" rims and tires. Why, because like I said I can get the rims from an online Acura dealer for $1580 (total, incl tax & S+H) and buy 4 tires for ~$200 each for an out the door cost of ~$2400 and I get to keep all the 17" stuff.

To restate I would NOT pay the dealer $2500 unless you get to keep the 17" rims/tires. Otherwise work some sort of trade-in allowance.

Mr. MRI

I am 25 and work in the Health Care field. I too have a 2005 S2000 and a 2nd gen. RL. It can be done....but, I would never trade in my RL. I love it too darn much!!

Mr. MRI

And I have the 18 inch wheel pkg...big diff. indeed. Worth the extra $$!

eaRL

Good point. They will certainly keep the 17s if you order the car with 18s and do not ask for the original wheels and tires. If the dealer is keeping your original wheels and tires the difference you should pay for the 18" wheels and tires should be $800-$1200, depending on the price of the 18" tires. At any rate, it should be negotiated seperately. It's very easy for the dealer to simply return the 17" wheels and tires to you and keep the price of the sale the same.

Assuming the dealer keeps your original wheels and tires, it's unlikely they would offer a trade-in allowance equivalent to 100% of the value of those 17" wheels and tires. They can buy those wheels and tires all day long from Acura at a very good price. They do not have very much incentive to reduce the price of the sale just to take the 17" wheels and tires off your hands.

eaRL

Yep. Like I mentioned, Acura made pretty much all of the decisions on the options that would be included on the RL. Not without input from Acura owners I would think. I was not surprised to see this strategy applied to Acura's flagship vehicle versus the TSX and TL which offer navigation as an option. The RL had remained pretty much the same for some years. They probably felt like they needed to execute a complete 180 in every aspect of the car to achieve success. It is very in your face with technology that is both visible and under the covers.

SilverCL225hp

[QUOTE=WhitePearl_RL]My oldest son was looking at a 2004 Nissan Maxima SE 6 speed and I could not help but notice the similarity between the M35/45 and the Maxima. Do they share the same chassis? The difference being the Maxima is FWD?

What do you think?
QUOTE]

They all come from the same company of course they all look similar. In fact, Altima, G35 sedan, Maxima, and M45/M35 all share a family look in my opinion.

jhr3uva90

The Infiniti M is on a different platform from the Maxima and Altima. However, I think the three cars purposely resemble each other. Remember, there is no "Infiniti" brand in Japan, they are all Nissans. Therefore, the Infiniti M is designed to have a "Nissan look" because the family resemblance helps the car to sell in Japan.

eaRL

I'm not a Nissan history buff but I think the M was originally a JDM Nissan built on an older platform that Nissan decided to bring to America under the Infiniti badge. Now the FX35/45, G35, M35/45 & 350Z all share a newer platform. The front midship platform. They probably have counterparts in the Japanese market as well.

Originally Nissan was so concerned about their brand recognition that the first cars they sold in the U.S. were under the Datsun brand. They figured if their cars were a flop in the U.S. their Japanese sales would not be affected. I'm sure it is not a mistake that the latest Nissan and Infiniti lineups were designed with the hopes of creating a synergy across both brands versus trying to hide the connection between the two brands.

The RL, on the other hand, does not share its platform with any other North American Acura or Honda model. Because the Acura brand is not sold in Japan, the Honda Legend which is virtually identical to its North American twin the Acura RL, is sold.

msu79gt82

I used to own a 1980 Nissan 200SX. That car had both the Datsun and Nissan name on its rear; if I'm not mistaken that was the first year the name Nissan was used and they used both names during this transition period/year.

eaRL

My older brother got a B210 (a 1976 or 1977 I think) when he started college. Yellow with black vinyl interior. That was a clean, good driving little car that never gave him any trouble at all. I learned how to drive a stick in that car.

* Sorry to get off topic *

The first Acura I remember seeing was a 1988 or 1989 Legend.

jhr3uva90

The previous-generation RL did not share a platform with any other Hondas, but the current-generation RL is based on the global-midsize platform.

eaRL

Sorry. Not true. The RL platform is unique in design and materials to any other Honda/Acura vehicle. You're talking about the platform that the Accord, TL, TSX, MDX and Odyssey are built on.

jhr3uva90

I could be wrong. These article say the new RL is based on the global midsized platform, though:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...40/ai_n7070864

http://atbozzo.blogspot.com/2004_12_...o_archive.html

mrdeeno

No, as jhr3uva90 said, the current RL is based on the global midsized platform which also underpins the accord/tl/tsx.

The odyssey/MDX/Pilot/ridgeline are built on the global light truck platform.

The rsx/civic/crv is built on the global small car platform.

the NSX and s2000 are built on unique platforms.

eaRL

Honestly, a blog is not my idea of an article but I get your point. I have to say the platform question, introduced by my previous post, is still a bit of a toss up for me. I did find more information that does not state the RL's platform by name but it is inferred. It's not necessarily bad that this car moved to the Accord platform. I'm a little surprised, but not disappointed. I just find it difficult to ignore the technology in the RL's underpinnings. The aluminum subframe, aluminum hood, aluminum front fenders and aluminum trunk lid, high tension steel in the front and side frames and elsewhere, SH-AWD, 300HP V6, carbon fiber reinforced propeller shaft, magnesium cylinder heads and on and on. I cannot find another Honda/Acura vehicle that would fit that profile. I'm a little embarassed I guess because I was under a different impression about the RL platform and hell I own one.

But, maybe it is a natural progression that the RL be moved onto that platform. Now the RL is positioned to showcase features that might move down the lineup as time goes on. AWD for the TL is one feature that comes to mind. If I was a marketing guy it would be hard for me to say that my company's flagship vehicle was based on the [I]global midsize platform[I/]. It just doesn't have a good ring to it.

mrdeeno

The items you described (hood, trunk, etc.) are just body panels that can easily be made different and installed. Some of the other items (SH-AWD, subframes, etc.) were engineered JUST SO it can work with this platform, so here's hoping that the technology will trickle down to other cars in this platform. But the platform itself is more or less the same with minor dimension changes (wheelbase, width, etc.). I think the global-midsized-platform is actully (4) sub-platforms: 1 for the TSX/euro-accord, 1 for the TL, 1 for the U.S. accord, and now 1 for the RL.

Car companies can do a lot of things with platform sharing...that's how honda can make a pickup truck out of a minivan, and how Nissan can make a SUV out of the Z. If a platform is flexible and well designed, the company can save a lot of money by building many good cars off of the same platform and the different types of cars would share the same virtues (as well as weaknesses) inherent in that platform.

If Honda was going to invest the money to develop a UNIQUE platform for the RL, it most likely would've been RWD. But I don't think it EVER crossed their minds to do that and they COULDN'T WAIT to get rid of the last RL platform and move the car onto the more efficient global midsized one.

catsailr

I bought a 1980 200SX new, my wife drove it for 4 years, then my son drove it in college. I think the only thing I ever had to do is put a clutch it in after my son started driving it (wonder why?). We then had it painted, got it all fixed up for my daughter. She drove it about 2 months, turned it over, and totaled it.

eaRL

Absolutely. From what I have read since I pulled my foot out of my mouth is the choice for the engineers was a new RWD platform from scratch or an AWD retrofit on the global midsize platform. I imagine that once they ran the numbers on the new RWD platform, that option was off the table. But I can imagine the engineers were foaming at the mouth to sweep everything off the table and develop an all new RWD platform.

As you mentioned there are variations of the global midsize platform and the front and rear subframes that are engineered for a particular model seem to be one of the main differences besides dimensions, wheelbase, etc. The RL's front and rear subframe components are manufactured using enhanced methods and lighter materials that reduce weight and increase the stiffness of those components. Also there are miscellaneous adjustments to the platform's attachments to those subframe components like larger subframe mounts on the front and rear.

I'm almost splitting hairs here I know but once you examine the engineering that goes into the cars on that platform you can see how much sense it makes financially but it can never compete with a unique platform from which to design the rest of the car.

mrdeeno

I disagree there. I think that if a platform is well designed, it WILL be flexible enough to design great cars off of, such as Nissan's done with the FM platform for the Z, g35, FX, and M. All these cars have great weight distribution, rigidity, and RWD. It saves them a load of money and the cars are easily differentiated. I don't think they could have made the M any better by basing it off it's own platform.

The RL on the other hand is based on the global midsized platform, which is a great platform for FWD cars, so the weight distribution of the RL sucks, even if it is AWD.

Unlike BMW which only recently started sharing platforms, and even their fans are arguing that they aren't platform sharing (6-series from 5 platform; x3 from 3platform). That's probably the #1 reason why they cost so much more, along with the shiny badge.

psteng19

Yup.
In fact, aside from the S2000 and NSX, Honda only has 2 platforms.

Civic, CR-V, Element, RSX share one.
Accord, TSX, TL, RL, Odyssey, Pilot, MDX, Ridgeline share the other.

mrdeeno

And with rumors I hear passing around, Honda is getting rid of the s2000 and NSX. Sounds financially sound to me to build ALL its cars on the current state-of-the-art platforms instead of having 2 other unique platforms for low volume cars.

But financials aside, that would suck-ass if they get rid of those 2 cars. A solution I want would be to update the s2000 platform and build next gen s2000 and another car off of it (maybe next gen. RSX?) or even a 3rd model (roadster for Acura?).

Then replace or heavily update the NSX platform to build a 21st century exotic sports car or even an ultra-lux sedan, or both, on that platform.