TampaRLX-SH

Those are excellent points and well made. I agree wholeheartedly. I have driven a few vehicles for a day that were a hoot. Each time I return to my RL I am marveled how well the RL is suited to me. There must be some subliminal bonding mechanism in the RL that infiltrates our brain waves.

Mike_TX

Yep, agree completely. I think if the MDX had about 25 or 30 more hp I might just go for it.

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TampaRLX-SH

Mike....you really should not drink and drive. Use that cupholder for something useful, like stowing a microfiber cloth to dash dust at stoplights. Geez.....

As for the choice...listen to the voices in your head. "Get another RL. Get another RL...Get one, you KNOW you want another RL...yes...that's it, get the checkbook Mike...good. Now go to Acura...they will make the voices stop..."

noobie

I had forgot about the throttle and tranny, but that is such an accurate description. I don't have a heavy foot, but I found myself winding the engine up much more in my normal driving style. That said, this drive train encourages it, which in part makes it fun. Again, I would tire of this over time.

I think the interior is a bit cheap. Not even close to RL or M imho.

I had an AWD 35x which priced out at much less than 10K gap. The RL is a far superior value. The materials and what you get for money are no comparison.

Funny how Consumer Reports rates the G so highly. It's not the character of car that CR tends to rate well. It's polar opposite of a Camry.

I think you should just get a different color RL... or maybe wait to see what the Hyundai Genesis looks like. I'm certainly curious.

ssim3

I did not like the style, but the SRT 8 was a fun beast to drive. I could not locate one of the Grand Cherokees or I might be going o the filling station way to often. Sice I am over 20,000 miles since I got mine Sept. 2.

calvin_hobbes

there has been mention of all new 08 MB C-class... i checked the specs on it... 228hp on luxury model with anything_and_everything_you_can_think_of as OPTIONAL, doesn't exactly float my boat

P.S. I am loving every single moment of RL ownership.. this car makes me want to get in and drive somewhere (coming from a homebody, thats a really big change)

Mike_TX

Actually, the '08 C350 will probably have 268hp, as does the current one. The 228hp version is the "base model" C320. The new C looks pretty good on paper and in the pictures I've seen, but I figure it will still be too small for my needs.

I still plan to drive one just for the heck of it.

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calvin_hobbes

thanks for pointing out that the one i quoted was C320 and not C350... but still, paying excess of 45Gs for a car that only has 270hp (with zillion options) doesn't tickle my fancy..

Mike_TX

I completely understand.

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calvin_hobbes

i actually am in the market for a second car, and have heard rave reviews about Infinity M45...then someone here posted their rendition of the M-experience... now i am confused whether M is good in its class or not

Mike_TX

I had an M45 for a year and a half. All in all, it's an excellent car ... good ride, great handling, plenty of power, comfortable.

The issue I had with mine was that the lockup/unlock of the torque converter was "rough" enough that when cruising down the highway on cruise control and going down a slope, the car would jerk every couple of seconds as the torque converter unlocked (coasting), then locked up (when the cruise applied a little throttle to maintain speed). It was enough to make your head bob back an forth, so it was a big PITA during long trips.

Unfortunately, Infiniti went into denial and told me there was nothing wrong with the car (even though I finally found a couple of dealer service techs who admitted to knowing the problem). So I had a $52,000 lux car that lurched and jerked like an old pickup truck. I terminated my lease early because of it.

It's possible my car was just worse than most, but a few other people have also complained about this on Infiniti forums. I'd be reluctant to buy another one, myself. Shame, because it's a fine car otherwise.

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calvin_hobbes

do you know if the new G35 has similar issues?

Scott in Houston

That being said, our M is awesome. No issues. It's one heck of a car.

TampaRLX-SH

Most all of the cars discussed as options or comparable to our RL are fine automobiles. But each has a slant, attribute, trait, and foil chatacteristic with that manufacturer or model. It is not about what other people say, it is about what you want, what appeals to you and what you can afford. It is fine to poll opinions and make use of reports and reviews...but unless that information aligns to your taste, it is merely opinions. I bought my TL based on reviews and buzz...but ultimately was not the car for me. If you buy on opinions of others, ask them to make your payment as well.

If every car was exactly the same, there would be no choice or variety. Each manufacturer and model pursues enough similarity to be considered with competitors, but different enough to hopefully capture the appeal of a market share.

IMHO, Infinities are fine automobiles. They personally do not appeal more to me than my RL. Inifinities are tuned for engine verve and performance more than the RL. Many that appeals to, but for me, I like the RLs smoother response, better economy and quieter exhaust note while still offering the performance I like. The Infinities also tune the trannies and throttle for quick launches. But I prefer the RLs tuning which allows for slow speed traffic and parking spot hunts without lurching and tranny shifts bucking. The RL attains speed stealtily. The Infinity announces it.

It is all in what appeals to you. Chances are, the car you read about may not be the car that appeals to the seat of your pants. That has been my experience anyway.

Mike_TX

I just finished a day with a (rented) 2007 G35 (see above), and I was not able to make it do the 'lurching' thing my M did. There aren't lots of long steep hills around North Central Texas, but I drove for about 100 miles trying to find all I could.

I wouldn't turn down a G for that reason. based on my day's drive. But as TampaRL says, the G is set up for really spirited driving, while the RL is aimed at a luxurious feel. IMO the G's setup is a little too dramatic for everyday stop and go driving.

Even so, it's possible I could end up with one ...

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TampaRLX-SH

"Mike....this is your inner voice again... go get another RL...."

Mike_TX

Haha! I like variety too much. It wouldn't even feel like I had two separate cars if they were both RL's!

Now, when the RL is restyled I could see me getting another one.

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noobie

Bit OT, but has anyone else been sucked in by Mercedes and BMW "Build Your Own" websites. First time, I got so excited at the super low base price only to get slammed by a final price that was 25% higher. I felt teased and cheated.

Back to the scheduled programming. I would not buy a G, but I could buy a M35x, although never experienced the problem on test drives.

Mike_TX

Well, just for the record, I keep getting drawn back to the new MDX for some odd reason.

Drove one again today, and it is a cool SUV. It is SO carlike in the way it drives and handles that you immediately forget it's a big vehicle. But it also gives you the utility value of a huge "trunk" for those times when you want to haul a lot of people (okay, kids LOL), a plasma TV or a load of bark mulch.

The interior is IMO every bit as nice and classy as the RL's, and it has most of the same amenities. The ride is awesome for an SUV (eat your heart out, Suburban and Explorer), and it is quiet and comfy inside. The power delivery is just short of the RL's because of the extra weight, but the bigger engine does lay down more torque, so it moves itself around quite nicely.

I've asked the GM at my dealer to work me up some lease numbers on both a new MDX and a new '07 RL. Interestingly, the deep discounts and factory money on the RL make it come out to about the same selling price as the MDX, even though the MDX stickers $7,000 less. But the MDX SHOULD have better residuals and money factors than the RL, so it should also produce some better lease numbers.

Note I said "should".

We'll see.

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Tully44

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Leasing an RL is a foolish economic move. The MF is market rate (translates to about 6.25%) and residual is now at 47% for a 3 yr/36K contract. If history is any indication, the residual on the '08 will probably be about 51%.

Buying the RL is a wise move as long as you keep the car and drive it into the ground (that or 7 years of ownership, whichever comes last).

As for the MDX, I've read nothing but good things. Except...complaints of the interior rear view mirror (cheaply made and very basic).

Mike_TX

Well, we won't start the lease v. buy discussions again, but I firmly believe BUYING an RL is foolish ... unless, as you say, you keep it forever and drive the wheels off of it. And I just don't do that.

In the meantime, leasing allows me to keep my own money for other uses, rather than paying it out to AHFC each month and hoping I'll get some of it back when trade-in time comes. I know we disagree, but I wouldn't even think of buying a car like the RL with its known low resale ... leasing is the ONLY way I'd get one.

Having said that, I'll reiterate that Acura's lease factors are indeed sucky. But in a way it's like 'pay me now or pay me later' ... it's either a low residual up front in a lease or low residual value biting you in the ass when you buy and then later on trade!

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Tully44

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I agree with the 'cash benefits' of leasing. Just disagree that the RL is worthy of leasing. But sometimes when ya gotta have it, cost takes a secondary position to desire.

jftjr

Buying any car and driving it to death is the most economical way to go, but frankly, I get totally bored with my cars after 2 years or so and if I didn't have a new one every 36 months I'd probably lose my mind.

That being said, leasing is very attractive on a car like this -- even though the money factor isn't great, the fact that the car is being sold at such a huge discount makes it attractive -- a residual of 51% is pretty much average for any sedan (certain makes excepted) and remember, the residual is off of MSRP.... not the "selling price" so all that factory money in there makes for a big advantage. Plus, with a car like the RL, which doesn't have a lot of options, you actually can get your value for leasing things like a navi system.

Finally, for people like me, who can expense their lease fees instead of depreciating a car, it's a major financial advantage. Huge, in fact.

calvin_hobbes

i want your job

jftjr

I can almost guarantee that you don't.

SpicyMikey

You said lets not start the lease vs. buy thing again but I couldn't resist. Keep in mind I've done both buy and lease in the past depending on the economics of the deal. I'm not really biased either way. But your statement about how buying is foolish seems to be overreaching. I did some quick numbers based on what seems to be the deal right now and here's what I found.

I did the calculations for 3 to 6 years of use. I used KBB to get some average wholesale residuals on the RL after these number of years. What I found was that buying was cheaper if you drove it for about 50 months (this required some additional calcs which I didn't show -- but trust me) These calcs are based on wholesale numbers. It obviously would be even more favorable to buy, if you sold the car on your own.

Here's the scenerio; The actual starting figure isn't too important as long as it's the same, so let's assume no money down in either case and basically a sticker deal with a final price of $51k after taxes, etc. financed for 6.1% (or the equivalent money factor).

3 years
- Purchase for $1553/mth x 36mth = 55900 - 19000 residual value = $36000
- Lease for $850/mth x 36 mth = $30600

4 Years
- Purchase for $1200/mth x 48mth = 57600 - 16000 residual value = $41600

5 Years
- Purchase for $988/mth x 60/mth = 59280 - 13500 residual value = $45780

6 Years
- Purchase for $847/mth x 72/mth = 60984 - 11290 residual value = = $49694


These are the numbers I came up with. Check my math.

So, is buying better then leasing. Answer; depends on your lifestyle. Neither is foolish. In fact, what this really shows is that the only finacially "foolish" thing, is to turn your car over every 3 years. The car looses most of it's value (and thus costs the most to drive) in the first three years. That fact doesn't change whether you buy or lease -- its a money pit either way. Realizing that, I guess we're all fools, for not buying a 3 year old used car.

Mike_TX

LOL. If people REALLY bought on the basis of the numbers, the car companies would go out of business. And I, for one, certainly don't buy cars like an accountant.

When I said I considered it foolish to buy the RL, it was in the context of the previous statement that it was foolish to lease it. We all know a car starts out being a liability the day you buy it, and "investing" your hard-earned dough in a car that already has a demonstrated low resale value - and further is slated for a a restyle in a year (something you might not have factored into your calcs) - is IMO too big a risk.

The main reason is that anyone buying a car is gambling on what they'll eventually get for it when it comes time to trade. One of the joys of leasing is that you know before you sign on the line what the trade-in value is, and the lessor tells you upfront that they'll buy it back for that number. Presto - no resale risk. Your models assume certain resale patterns, and there's no assurance at all those assumptions will hold. The resale could plummet for a variety of reasons, and the numbers would be meaningless.

Hey, it's all in what fits your needs. I haven't kept a car longer than 36 months for thirty years, and I often trade after a year or two. So your sweet spot of 50 months is WAY beyond my tolerance level, and I have to consider other factors.

But the notion of buying only 3 year-old cars? Whoa. Start factoring in the repair costs and down time and that really scares me!

I meant no offense with my original post, so sorry if you took it that way.

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SpicyMikey

None taken. Just wanted to lay out the numbers. Bottom line, the quicker you turn over your car, the more costly it is. Lease, buy, it doesn't matter much.

The biggest thing in those numbers -- to me -- is that it depreciated about $30k in the first 3 years. It then only depreciated another 8k over the next 3 years. That's why I was saying buying a 3 year old car (any car) coming off a lease is probably the most financially intelligent thing to do -- even factoring in some repairs. By the way, I've never done that, so I'm obviously also not buying a car like an accountant

The other thing the numbers show is that keeping your cars for 4 years makes the lease/buy argument moot. Then it really becomes a trade off on the minor risk of an unknown (but fairly predictable) residual value versus the minor risk of a lease contract with it's inherent negatives. Neither is foolish, neither is right or wrong. That's why this lease/buy argument always rages on with no winner. It's like arguing politics, no one is right or wrong, it's a matter of perspective. Like I said, I've done both depending on my circumstances at the time.

Mike_TX

LOL. Yeah, to be honest I think I'm actually willing to pay a little more in the long run for the lower monthly outlay (cash flow) and the guaranteed buyback (peace of mind) of a lease. Maybe it's a byproduct of my 35 years in the insurance business.

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Rob144

Even though it comes with a greater cash outlay, I like the idea of having full ownership of my vehicle. I keep cars for about 10 years, during which I take pretty good care of them, but they can't be easily traded in. It does become a hassle to sell them in the paper, but I've got about 9+ years to go on the RL.

Up until now, I usually went after 2-3 year-old used cars that were lease returns or people selling them for whatever reason.

That said, it would be kind of fun to have a brand new ride every 2-3 years with less cash outlay. If you really liked the car, you could make a deal when the lease expired.
Rob144

SpicyMikey

Now you're a guy who definitely gets all he can out of a bad "investment". Are you an accountant

calvin_hobbes

looking @ the figures, i think i got jipped... paid $39K (inclusive of all taxes, transfer fees etc ) on my '05 RL i should probably just trade it in for the new RL (which are going @ $41K as some other forum members have indicated)...

Rob144

Just a humble engineering manager trying to make the best choices I can at the time I make them. I have no regrets on the car or the method of payment.

Rob144

SpicyMikey

I was just busting. Actually, I bought this RL also with a 48mo 6.1% loan. Why? Because the numbers just worked out better that way on this car at this time. On the other hand, my "family" minivan is something we wear out quick. I go through them every few years and usually lease. I'm on my 4th.

That's the point I was trying to make earlier. There's no right or wrong answer. It depends on the numbers at the time and your circumstances.

Rob144

Humble engineers can't tell when they're being "busted".

My circumstance was selling my '95 Legend, exercising some expiring stock options, and getting the go-ahead to splurge.

Rob144

SpicyMikey

"Getting the go-ahead". Translation; Getting the nod from your wife.

Mike_TX

Well, I went ahead and took the plunge ... a new Nimbus Grey/Taupe '07 MDX w/Technology Pkg. is now being prepped for me to replace the TL.

I considered getting another RL, but I just didn't want two of the same car. And after all, an SUV is really useful when you need to haul something (or someone). The bonus for me is that the MDX is so RL-like in terms of appointments and general lux factor, andit has the wonderful Acura Nav and other electronic goodies we've come to love. I just couldn't find that in any other brand.

So, I'm still a two-Acura guy ... just not a two-RL guy.

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SpicyMikey

Congrats. Funny, I'm considering the same move soon. What other SUV's did you try out and consider. What was your basic conclusions after scoping out the options? I'd like your perspective.

TampaRLX-SH

Go Mike! The MDX is a tall RL. That was my impression.

I am too considering an MDX as a second vehicle (weekend family hauls). I see another pattern forming similar to the owners who went TL to RL.

Mike_TX

Mikey, I looked briefly at the Mazdas - CX7 and CX9, but didn't give serious consideration to them. They're pretty impressive overall, but they're underpowered and not near as lux as the MDX. We drove an SRX Caddy, but that was just for my wife's benefit since I don't like them. I had an RX300 a few years back, and in addition to it being too girly, I just can't stand to look at its new rearend. LOL. Can't bring myself to try the GM or Ford stuff. VERY briefly considered an M-B GL450, but even with employee pricing it took my breath away.

Frankly, I'm so spoiled by the Acura Nav and other electronics that no one else seemed to have anything interesting. The MDX has a very BMW X5 feel, but it's a lot more classy and plush inside (and of course doesn't have the BMW starkness). In addition, it's quicker and comes with more stuff.

As for options, I decided against the Sport Pkg. (since I'm becoming a candyass, and the ride and handling are controlled enough for me). I also don't care for the Sport wheels. It's probably worth it, though, for anyone who likes that kind of thing. Also didn't do the Entertainment Pkg, since we don't have kids in the back that often. The Tech Pkg. provides a lot of stuff, and covered the bases for me very well.

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