CL6 (and any others who sell Acura)

CL6, I understand that I am not your favorite person on this site and the question I am about to ask, you may not be able to answer, due to confidentiality issues, and even if you are free to answer, you may not wish to divulge that information, but I will ask any way.

Do you know the demographics that Acura is targeting for the RL and if so, what are they?

I ask this because two friends had major roles in two Honda dealerships (co-owner and GM) and each of them at different times talked about the training they had received from HMC about who to expect to come in their dealerships looking at cars (The Prelude and the S2000). They even had corporate send people to train their sales staff in what to look for and how best to relate to the demographics. I remember being ‘very’ surprised at who they expected to buy the S2000. Empty nest baby-boomers!

My reason for asking is that I believe we have a diverse group on this site that if we put or collective heads together we might be able to steer Acura in a better marketing direction. If you (CL6) know where they were heading and we can tell them the error of their ways (formally in some sort of letter campaign or even a big email push - not just hoping that they read the comments on this site), maybe we can make a difference.

The only down side to this I can see is that they may find a way to sell all their RLs and the $3500 may go way. (which means I have to buy another RL right away). The upside being the resale value might return to the days of old when Acuras were worth more when they went off the lot due to appreciation.

Thr RL is one heck of a fine car. We know it, dedicated Sales staff know it and I think in their corner offices the Acura execs know it. Anyone up for a bit of targeted focus group feedback?

 

Acura execs and workers already peruse our site. I'm sure they read what we're saying. I can tell you this because as a long-timer here, I saw what happened with the 3G TL. Many of the criticisms and ideas given about the 2G TL "mysteriously" became part of the 3G TL. Some examples:

6MT option
More aggressive styling
More power
Fixed tranny

etc.

Of course, not everything we said back then made it into the car. Best example is RWD in the TL, which true Acura fans have been whining about for years.

I suspect we are already being used as a marketing tool and idea farm for the 3G RL. If you put in a Google search for "acura rl forum", AZ appears at the top of the list. So people wanting to find a forum on RLs can find us pretty easily.

So will Acura's execs listen to us? We'll see...

 

I certainly hope the folks at Acura and Honda are reading what we post here. Most of us would make better decisions than many of them are making right now and we really are strong group that would be more than happy to do word-of-mouth marketing for Honda and Acura if they would just put out the cars we want.

 

What I'm asking is not what as a group many would like to see as vehicle improvements/options, but what would we like to see in a commercial or in print media that would cause us to say "Wow, I wonder what the car is like?" if we had never seen one/ taken one for a test drive. Some of the Legend commercials are really fun to watch, so why not tell Acura what we'd like to see about the RL.

For example, I use Ping golf clubs. I use them because they really help my game and it was word of mouth that led me to them. Until recently I thought their commercials were blah. Just recently they have a new TV campaign that asks "Where do you want to take your game? Do you want to be the club champion, lower your handicap, hear your name at the first tee..." Or soemthing along those lines. The point is it really speaks to a number of people not about how good Ping clubs are, but how good to you want to become Inferring that Ping clubs can take you there).

So I will rephrase my question..... What kind of commercial would get you into the Acura sales room to try out the RL? What would you like to see that would get you so curious about this specific car that you REALLY want to go play with it?

I don't want to impose on those who don't have the time or want to spend the time... and for the rest, I'm not asking for you to become advertising gurus. But for those who might want to let their inner creative genius loose, do you want to give it a go?

yes, if we as a group come up with something that Acura likes and uses, we are in effect giving them free, well everythihng, but up to this point, I don't see Acura doing very well on their own. I usually drop in to this site a couple times a week, but judging by the number of threads and responses, there seem to be people who spend hours each night. Do some of you want to take part of the time to invent / create / design a commercial or commercials that will bring more uninformed - yet to see the light - car buyers into the fold?

And for some, the idea of making the RL 'more' visible is not what you want and I understand your point too. And if there are more in group that don;t want to see the RL get more exposure then I will fold up this tent and not mention the idea again.

I just keep reading so many people writing about how poorly the RL is selling and "what is Acura thinking? ad nauseum. So here is an opportunity to design a change or at least 'a' chance to see if we the consumer can find a better way.

There will be no reward, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but maybe if we can get them to sell more RLs then they will put together an "Acurazine RL package" (so, okay, there's absolutely no chance of that ), but maybe we can just revel in our create juices.

 

As the "other" dealer that posts here occasionally I will highlight my latest discussion with our Acura rep:

• 09 TSX redesign will be SH-AWD and will be produced as coupe and sedan. Possible 2.3 Turbo aVTEC 4 for Type-S. Release in Spring 08

• 09 TL redesign will be SH-AWD with 3.5L aVTEC 6 and will be available in 6MT and 6AT. Release Fall 08

• Two possibilities for RL - (1) RL will remain for 09 with MMC with a slight reduction in price/overall options. Introduction of all new V8 flagship sedan for USDM (and maybe CDM) adding 12"-18" in overall length, softer suspension, etc. or (2) MMC redesign of RL to better fit the "flagship" sedan model.

• ASCC has been scrapped and redesign for NSX replacement is back in conceptual stages. Expected release is now Summer 09 as 10MY.

We also talked about the 08 Accord, the possible TSX chassis spy shots (under supposed current USDM Accord body) and general chat. I asked specifically about whether they were reading the forums, the lack of any marketing, etc. The chief of North American development has acknowledged before a company meeting the colossal blunder the RL has been in North America, but it is important to note that this sedan is the same as the JDM and ROW Honda Legend. The smaller size, above average fuel economy and sporty ride are all desired in a luxury sedan everywhere but in the U S of A

 

.....mommy....

Well, we knew Acura was headed toward SH-AWD for all models because they said they were going to do that. I can only hope that for the TSX and TL they've found a way to reduce the weight somewhat.

As for the RL......They should make it a true flagship with V8, some sport or a sporty suspension option, flashier design, chrome wheels, slightly more room. In other words, option #2.

 

Here is my take. I think the problem is more with the population of potential buyers in this country than with the car itself.

I think part of the RL's problem is that it does not fit well into what the stereotypical American who buys a lux sports sedan expects in a luxury sports sedan. They -

1. Like a big fat V8 (but not enough to usuall spend more for it -see below)
2. Don't care that much about gas mileage
3. Want lots of room
4. Want a nameplate associated with lux or sporty cars (e.g. the perception that Acura is still a little notch down from Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguar, etc.).
5. Don't want to have to read a manual for the car or its gadgets
6. Unless the live in the North, they don't care about AWD, and those that do care about AWD want the SUV status symbol. Lexus, for example, has been sucessful not so much for their cars, but for their SUV's.
7. Want a dealership/showroom that befits the luxury status of the nameplate

While I agree that Acurazine people are a diverse bunch, my general sense is that we tend to have a bit more smarts and sense of independence, and we are thus able to look past alot of the issues I mention above. Alot of the above issues are related to conformity, image and "keeping up with the Joneses". I think alot of us are largely above that kind of thinking (e.g "I like my RL because I don't see lot of them around").

Well, Acura can't change the country, and I don't think Acura needs to necessarily address all 7 of these issues. In my mind, issues #1 and #5 are not as critical as the others...Yes, I don't think not having a V8 is that big of an issue. As an example, Infiniti and Lexus sell a heck of alot more V6 M35s and GS300s than M45s and GS430s. I also think a V8 will inflate the price alot, plus all of the R&D, etc., to develop a V8, the bottom line would be that while having a V8 might help a little, I don't think it would be worth it.

This all being said, a commercial compaign needs to address some of these issues to make the care more appealing to the average American lux car buyer. Acura needs to shift emphasis a bit from performance to luxury in its ads, especially for the top models. Take a big cue from the JDM Honda Legend commercials that were posted here - add some passion and pizzaz to the commercials, instead of the bland, techno-geek ADVANCE ads. Acura, IMHO is too much targeted towards men. Emphasize the safety and reliability as well as the performance and gadgets and you can start getting more women interested in Acura. Those JDM Honda Legend commercials that were posted here had a nice blend of themes - performance car, but with a gadget that improves safety, and some romantic, exciting elements (moon, wolf, car on water, etc.) that has a wider appeal.

Acura also needs to get their dealerships to improve their appearance and services. People buy lux cars not just for the car, but for the experience of the dealership and its services. They also want a dealership that looks as luxurious as their car. Acura should pack up some of their execs and dealership owners, put them in disguise, and send them all to a decent Lexus dealership and have them take notes. My Honda dealership looks better than some of the Acura dealerships I have seen and been in!

Again, I don't care that my Acura dealership doesn't have a cappucino bar or massage, but there are plenty of other luxury car buyers that do, and these are the folks that I think Acura is missing out on. Its the image of the nameplate that is costing Acura customers and is what they need to focus on.

 

[QUOTE=Godwhacker]
1. Like a big fat V8 (but not enough to usuall spend more for it -see below)
2. Don't care that much about gas mileage
3. Want lots of room
4. Want a nameplate associated with lux or sporty cars (e.g. the perception that Acura is still a little notch down from Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguar, etc.).
5. Don't want to have to read a manual for the car or its gadgets
6. Unless the live in the North, they don't care about AWD, and those that do care about AWD want the SUV status symbol. Lexus, for example, has been sucessful not so much for their cars, but for their SUV's.
7. Want a dealership/showroom that befits the luxury status of the nameplate

[QUOTE=Godwhacker]


1 & 2 are likely the primary reasons why the luxury car segment is suffering as a whole right now. Buyers are looking for more efficient vehicles. Those who have the money to burn, and don't care are gravitating toward the brands that give them the recognition they want. So the hallmark brands are maintaining pace, while peripheral brands are losing ground in this segment.

The sad point is IF Acura was smart, it would take OPPORTUNITY of the fuel and efficiency concerns sinking luxo models and USE that to better market the RL. The RL may not have a V8, but that compromise will afford better efficiency AND ULEV2 while not dropping the power acceptable to most. Take the focus OFF the cylinders, and put more emphasis on the relative efficiency and green qualities.

 

All of your above statements are correct. However, this line here hits the nail on hte head. Though some car buyers like you or myself could care less about such luxury items as a cappucino bar or massage station, there are far more consumers who are interested in this than not.

Acura has been around since '86 which is longer than both Lexus and Infiniti. Lexus has done so well in a shorter amount of time because they got the luxury part correct early on in the game, not only in their vehicles but in their dealerships. When you walk into a Lexus dealership, it is a lot more welcoming and comfortable than it is to walk into an Acura dealership. Acura has to get this into their heads before they fail with another vehicle.

In my opinion as a 19 year old, I feel that Acura's are by far the best value on the road when in comparison to other vehicles in its class. The vehicles have a superb blend of performance, luxury, and technology but we already know this. Now we need to show the other car buying consumers out there that this is true. So why not take it from the real owners? Think of the new Mercedes Benz S Class commercials that have real life owners say a small segment about the car. When I watch those commericals when the owner says "It is just a wonderful car to drive" I think to myself about my car (2004 TSX) and say "Yeah, so is my car" but Acura has ridiculious commercials showing their cars racing up and down highways and down test tracks. Certainly these commericals are appealing to me and to other buyers out there who want a TSX or TL, a more sporty performance vehicle but with the RL, the potential buyers are not those who are going to be taking it to the test track or down a windy, curvy road at high speeds on a Sunday afternoon after brunch. Instead, they're the consumers who are going to be out on a Sunday afternoon cruise with their family or something to that effect.

In terms of the RL as a vehicle, I do not have a lot of experience with its driving dynamics. I have more experience with the TSX and the TL. As someone else mentioned above, Infiniti and Lexus, as well as Mercedes Benz and BMW sell a lot more V6 versions of their upscale luxury vehicles (M, GS, E, 5) than they do the V8 versions so a V8 may not be the ultimate answer to the problem with the RL. Certainly a V8 option would attract some buyers to the dealerships but not a massive influx that Acura needs with this car. There is very little that needs to be done with the RL in terms of making it a better car because the acolades speak volumes as do those who own the car. It does need more power, more luxury for the aging baby boomers who are attracted to this market, and it needs more aggresive and provocitive styling. When my 53 year old mother first say the RL, her first words were "Gee, it looks an awful lot like your sister's Accord..." Acura HAS to do something about this. Additionally, the market that this vehicle appeals to is not as enthusiastic about technology as the younger generation is. Offering such high tech "goodies" is nice but should not be standard in EVERY single car. There needs to be some exclusivity within the brand. Navigaton is a nice touch and a great feature but some people are warded off by the advanced technology that comes with such a system. Instead, Acura should offer small packages that the consumer can pick and choose from.

Ultimately, Acura has to get on the right path of building not only the image of the RL but more importantly, the image of the brand. They have made strides since the beginning of the decade but still have a long way to go. The cars are there, now we're just waiting on the marketing...

 

most of the cars are there, but I feel the RL is not. Marketing is a reflection of a vehicle. With the internet, magazines, and ready and available access to information, an automaker can't market a "high quality blah blah blah" when the actual product has none of those qualities.

I'm not saying this is the RL's problem. The RL's problem is rather that they have a car that competes in such a narrow range of a particular segment (V6 and AWD), yet they are trying to market it as a competitor to the entire segment of midsize-lux vehicles.

As for the people who think image is the problem rather than lack of V8, they have not made the connection between the two yet.

image is the SYMPTOM of the problem...lack of RWD and especially V8 is the problem that is causing the image symptom. So what if the V6 models outsell V8 models? Look at it this way, comparing V6 to V6, all of the RL's competitors STILL outsell it by a huge margin. The RL ISN'T that bad. I think the clearest results are from comparing the RL to the M35/45 considering how similar their "images" are. Acura had a better image than Infiniti, and in some regards they still do. If "image" was the problem, then why isn't the M35/45 a flop like the RL? the ONLY difference between the two models is that Infiniti went the route of the established players (BMW, MB, Lexus) with engine options and drivetrain options, and Acura went their way with only V6 and AWD. The result is pretty clear which way was successful and which way was not, image notwithstanding.

For all the V8 naysayers out there, are you REALLY that blind (or "fan"-ish) that you can't make the connection? If Acura wants to compete, then they should offer at least a V8 and RWD instead of offering excuses (do they really have to wonder why their image suffers?).

 

I am on the V8 bandwagon, mrdeeno. I wouldn't buy one personally unless the gas mileage were good, but there are people who would look again at the RL if it offered a decent one.

As far as RWD.....Acura has already spoken and they're sticking with SH-AWD. Remember, the RL is a showcase car for this tech and the first one to have it. I'm positive there are improvements to be made. If they can make it light enough that the weight penalty is minimal, thtat would be ideal. However, there are people who do indeed insist that RWD + V8=luxury car, and those people would still not look at the RL.

For those saying to improve the dealership experience: +1 here. My dealer is pretty good in the luxury department, so I'm spoiled, but reading this board, there are many subpar dealers. Acura needs to police them and play hardball to bring them up to a luxury standard.

And I won't even mention marketing....

 

Hm another thing about the RL I was thinking about the other day was why buy it over the TL-S. I mean the RL is a huge jump in price but what more does it really have? It has AWD, the key feature, and more of a luxery drive and ride but I mean is that justification for spending the more money? Dont get me wrong I do think the RL is a good car but is it truely worth it over the TL-s.

 

I don't think RWD is a necessity, but it considering the A6 is selling only marginably better than the RL, it may be part of the equation. The S80 is kinda in the same boat except they offer FWD in the V6 version.

I disagree about the dealers and the need to police them. Rather, it should be a 2-way street...Acura/Honda should really listen to dealers when it comes to product and it should be a big part of their product planning because dealers are the people interacting with customers day in and day out.

i'm sure MOST Acura dealerships pushed Honda for V8 and RWD when the 1st gen RL was a flop, because they saw firsthand and interacted with customers that chose to buy another brand over Acura. Yet Acura more or less ignored them and gave them an AWD V6 model with no trim levels.

The RL that Acura/Honda gave to the dealers is a decent car, but it was also a car that put the dealers in "defense" mode...ie when potential customers asked why the RL isn't offered in RWD, or why there's no V8, or no other trim levels, or options, or any other number of things that the competition offers that the RL doesn't, the dealers had to "defend" the RL and make justifications for the RL. How can they work on "marketing" or "selling" a car when they're busy defending it?

I think marketing is a big part of the equation, but the bigger part of the equation is the product.

 

With the marketing support, YES! Let's see: AWD, real curly maple wood trim, AFS Bi-Xenon HIDS, LED Tails, .89 lateral G, 5 star safety rated all the way around, Power sunshade, much classier cabin, all for about $6000 more. Worth EVERY penny

 

Well put. It's too bad because I truly believe that the RL is a superior vehicle to most, if not all of its competition. Unfortunately, the general public fails to see this...

 

i think the AWD on the RL would have made more sense if the TL was RWD...ie the snow belt people (who falsely believe that FWD is always better in snow) would have leaned more towards an AWD RL if their only other option was a RWD TL.

I think the 2nd gen RL was a step in the right direction (slightly less value, more features, better quality), but it stopped short of being all out a WHOLE step up from the TL.

Which is why I keep saying that Acura used the same formula to sell a mid-$30k car (TL) as they did to sell a $50k car (RL), when they should have known that mid $30k car buyers and $50k car buyers are remarkably different.

 

Absolutely, positively, unequivocally, YES. I thought the same way you did until I actually test drove an RL while I was a TL owner. You can see the result of those test drives in my sig below. The build quality alone is worth the price of admission, especially with the marketing support. Add A-Spec and you get a sporty luxury sedan. Add nice wheels and you get a better-looking car that does stand out.

And I'm a HUGE TL fan, enough so that I plan to test drive the 4G TL when it becomes available in 2008. That's a release Acura can't afford to FUBAR.

 

Again, this is not exactly the point. Please remember that this vehicle is the same as the JDM and ROW Honda Legend. To fully understand the meaning of this you have to get a little deeper into the "Honda Philosophy." It is really only the USDM that does not understand this. Honda themselves admit that it has been a colossal mistake HERE and will be giving an alternative or replacement to us next year. Since the ASCC was going to be a RWD based SH-AWD platform, I would expect that would alleviate most RWD concerns. More power would definitely address weight concerns and I am sure Honda engineers have been working since 05 to make the next gen systems lighter. A V8 will happen here and it will not take back to the drawing board R & D b/c Honda takes tech straight from it's racers (anybody check the engine size of Honda F1 cars lately). This vehicle will almost certainly be exclusive to USDM and maybe CDM and will not share a platorm with anything. I am also hopeful that they will make this new vehicle a foot longer, put larger sexier wheels on it, and soften the ride a little maybe with active damper suspension.

 

JC, thanks for your insider information. Don't you feel Acura's V-8 will likely have the cylinder shut-off feature? I agree with and want everything you have said (larger size, V-8, active suspension) but would like to keep my 06 RL's excellent highway mileage economy. I seem to recall a version of the Accord V-6 having the cylinder shut-off feature.

 

Variable Cylinder Management is available on several Honda models including the Odyssey and Accord. I even had heard it may be available on their racing engines for those times when they are in a yellow caution and want to save fuel. First heard about it when Danica Patrick lead the pack at Indy for several laps.

 

I think the RL is well worth the price over the TL (as Neuronbob said) especially with the marketing support. I had an 03 TL-S and traded for an 05 TL which my wife now has.
We also will be looking at trading it for the next gen of TL.

Personally I would hope they do not add another 12 to 18 inches to the length of the RL,
the Lexus L460 is only 198 inches long and isn't that the flagship of the Lexus line?

 

The RL does need to be a little longer. a) the trunk is teeny-tiny as it is and b) a little more legroom in the rear would be nice--the legroom is only slightly more than in a TL. Further, there needs to be enough room for a FULL SIZE SPARE. Those donuts just don't cut it for me.

I do agree that 18 inches more would be too much. The current RL is already 193 inches long. About 200-205 inches would be good.

 

You are prolly right, the MB S600 is only 205" long and the LS460 is 198" (LS 460L is 202")

So I would say 6"-8" would do the trick as long as they make the cabin roomier and less like a cockpit (he TL actually has much more interior room than the RL)

 

Anyone know how to post an mp3 file here?

I was thinking of heading into the voiceover studio this weekend with some ideas in mind for a new approach to Acura radio spots as per the OP's idea...stay tuned...

VOdoc

 

Variable cylinder management technology has been around since at least the mid 1970s when there was an oil embargo, and US car makers tried to conserve gas for their bulky and cushy automobiles. I remember my god father, at that time, had a V8 Cadillac that he could select 4 or 6 cylinders, depending on cruising conditions. The technology might have been less sophisticated then, but it was nonetheless available as an option for high end cars.