Godwhacker

That would also be consistent with how the competition does it. For example, the V-6 and V-8 versions of the M, as well as what BMW and Mercedes does with the same body style with different engine choices. Heck, Honda does it with the Accord (choice of V-4 or V-6), so its not like they are doing something too un-Honda like.

The other option might be to create a subsidiary or contract with another company for the "souped up" versions, a la BMW's Ms, or Mercedes AMGs. That may have the advantage of cutting the risk a little bit as well as the extra attention and distinction that owners of such cars tend to crave.

I love the car as is now with the V-6. I think the only thing I might want to consider would be a convertible version. I did hear that Acura was considering a convertible version of the TSX...not that it would be on an RL level, but it would be a cute little car!

black label

Once on the contract for the RL
Once on the contract for the MDX (donor suspension)
Once on the contract for your Crate motor

CL6

What I heard was that a new body is going onto the chasis of the existing RL because Honda realizes something 'big' has to happen. When I did work there I heard rumors that they wanted to increase the size of the backseat legroom... maybe this will happen too, but this is all I know. I heard this and dismissed it but then when I read the 08 production was stopping way early it makes sense.

neuronbob

Only if that crate motor were the Mugen V8 used in the original Mugen Legend concept.

geronimomoe

Even if there is a mid-model cycle freshening, it's very surprising that Acura would do it so early in the calendar year, especially 5 months into the model year, assuming they started production of the 2008 in roughly July.

Also, IMHO the amount of re-engineering and testing required to modify the car substantially (crash testing, road testing, etc) would be too great for a 2 year run, before totally changing the car.

If anything, I suspect the following:

1) At the most, it's just a sheetmetal change, like the previous generation Accord, where they changed the rear end a bit.

2) They total cease production of the RL. If we think about it, given the number of eyes out there, no one has seen any testing of the 3rd gen RL. No one. Wouldn't we expect someone to see the testing of the 3rd gen RL?

3) They are just temporarily stopping production, scheduled to coincide with the Japanese New Year, which is based on the traditional Chinese New Year to allow for a long "vacation" of the workers, to allow inventory to come down.

Thoughts?

black label

They used the phrase "build out", that typically means it's over for the model year.

geronimomoe

That would be "very un-Japanese" to let a plant sit idle for 7-8 months. For a country that used to pride itself with practically lifetime employment and keeping people working despite slowdowns in demand (such as Sony TVs in the early 80s)

So as I stated as possibility 2, totally cease production of the RL? Anyone hear about layoffs in Acura/Honda plants?

SPUDMTN

Remember: Mike said, along with other semi-official rumors, that the Sayama plant will be undergoing some major re-tooling; the plant will not sit idle, persay.

Ceasing the production of the RL indefinitely would NOT be part of Acura's strategy if they are intending to move up market (which has been strongly suggested by Acura officials in the not-so-distant past). However, it would make sense for the RL to take a break while being re-worked; why keep putting out a model just to take a kick in the pants everytime you move it off the lot at invoice pricing? There's no sense in manufacturing a vehicle that isn't selling well just for the sake of having the vehicle in the lineup.

This whole scenario just reeks of the Infiniti Q45. The last model year for the Q was 2005; the year before the M came out, which surpassed the Q in all terms except price. The M is larger than the Q, had more tech features, better performance, and overall was a better package. What did Infiniti do in light of all this? Put the Q on hiatus to eventually bring it back as a true flagship (as they are suspected to do in the near future.)

So what's going on for the 2009 model year at Acura? The new TL will be debuting--it'll be roughly the same size as the RL, feature the same tech (as the market demands), have a much more exciting exterior and interior design, and performance wise will blow the RL out of the water (if rumors of SH-AWD and high power are true). Following in the footsteps of Infiniti, it would make sense to pull the US RL off of the showroom floor--key here is US; I suspect the Legend will continue to sell in Europe and Japan, as it just debuted recently in Europe-- in order to push sales of the new TL (which has historically been the cashcow of the Acura brand).

Taking the RL off the market for a brief hiatus would be a very wise decision on Acura's part as it gives the TL the opportunity to grow to its full potential, saves Acura some embarassment, and gives Honda/Acura the opportunity to produce an RL that can truely compete in the marketplace. It would make no sense to provide a MMC update to the RL; a pig with lipstick is still just a pig.

Now, I truely am a great fan of the RL--I love the thing and believe it's probably the best overall package in the midsize market. However, the market dictates what is right and true, and the market is telling us the RL is a flop.

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Anyway, I think this thread is geting a bit out of control. All this speculation is just that, speculation, and until we hear official word as to what really is going on, it's simply heresay (while it may be entertaining). It's just snow-balling now.

SPUDMTN

Remember: Mike said, along with other semi-official rumors, that the Sayama plant will be undergoing some major re-tooling; the plant will not sit idle, persay.

Ceasing the production of the RL indefinitely would NOT be part of Acura's strategy if they are intending to move up market (which has been strongly suggested by Acura officials in the not-so-distant past). However, it would make sense for the RL to take a break while being re-worked; why keep putting out a model just to take a kick in the pants everytime you move it off the lot at invoice pricing? There's no sense in manufacturing a vehicle that isn't selling well just for the sake of having the vehicle in the lineup.

This whole scenario just reeks of the Infiniti Q45. The last model year for the Q was 2005; the year before the M came out, which surpassed the Q in all terms except price. The M is larger than the Q, had more tech features, better performance, and overall was a better package. What did Infiniti do in light of all this? Put the Q on hiatus to eventually bring it back as a true flagship (as they are suspected to do in the near future.)

So what's going on for the 2009 model year at Acura? The new TL will be debuting--it'll be roughly the same size as the RL, feature the same tech (as the market demands), have a much more exciting exterior and interior design, and performance wise will blow the RL out of the water (if rumors of SH-AWD and high power are true). Following in the footsteps of Infiniti, it would make sense to pull the US RL off of the showroom floor--key here is US; I suspect the Legend will continue to sell in Europe and Japan, as it just debuted recently in Europe-- in order to push sales of the new TL (which has historically been the cashcow of the Acura brand).

Taking the RL off the market for a brief hiatus would be a very wise decision on Acura's part as it gives the TL the opportunity to grow to its full potential, saves Acura some embarassment, and gives Honda/Acura the opportunity to produce an RL that can truely compete in the marketplace. It would make no sense to provide a MMC update to the RL; a pig with lipstick is still just a pig.

Now, I truely am a great fan of the RL--I love the thing and believe it's probably the best overall package in the midsize market. However, the market dictates what is right and true, and the market is telling us the RL is a flop.

---

Anyway, I think this thread is geting a bit out of control. All this speculation is just that, speculation, and until we hear official word as to what really is going on, it's simply heresay (while it may be entertaining). It's just snow-balling now.

black label

It is possible that they will continue to make the Legend for the Japanese market which I'm assuming is made in the same plant as the RL. They may also continue to make the car for the Canadian market.

The information I have is based on the American Honda, not Honda worldwide.

dwboston

I fail to see how a TL with SH-AWD and a similar size to the current RL will "blow the RL out of the water" performance-wise. Even if it gets a larger 3.7L engine the TL will be much heavier than the current TL due to the increased weight from the SH-AWD system.

And nothing personal, but who cares whether you think the thread is "out of control" and should be locked? It's a civil discussion and people are speculating about what the shutdown in production of the RL means.

black label

Thats what I love about the RL side of the world. The discussion is educated, humor is understood, and you have to say something really really stupid to receive the

SPUDMTN

I'm simply saying, what will differentiate the RL from the TL when the TL continues its social climb? While I like the RL better than the TL, I know that for many consumers the difference between the two is not significant enough to justify the price difference. There's no significant size difference, the two have similar features, and for many the TL feels more spirited. With the introduction of the next gen TL, the differences between the two will be even less.

And with current TL performance numbers where they are right now, essentially directly comparable with the RL (with an edge to the TL), the next generation is sure to provide for a considerable advantage. Sure, speculation on the TL's part, but when was the last time Acura (or any manufacturer for that matter) put out a next generation model that had worse performance numbers than its predecessor? It would defeat the purpose of a redesign if the product was not considerably greater in all aspects--especially performance wise, in this lucrative segment.

We know that the TL is going to be head and shoulders above the current generation from the debut of the new Accord. The new Accord is currently on par with the current generation TL in many ways--tech, performance, material quality, etc. Some have even suggested that the Accord is approaching RL levels of equipment, space, and in some aspects of performance. The G4 TL is going to need to surpass the Accord in all ways.

Sure the next gen TL will likely be heavier--it will also likely have enough power to compensate and still come out ahead of its predecessor. It would be a waste of time for Acura to redesign this model and not have it come out ahead.

And while the RL has a slightly different feel than the TL right now, the fact that the RL is incredibly similar to the TL is not helping sales. Why should the average consumer pay $10k+ more for an RL when the TL is the same size, provides for greater straight-line performance--which is what the market demands--and an edgier design? I could justify the price for the added quality, SH-AWD, and added tech, but I'm an enthusiast--not the typical consumer.

The RL simply needs to be differentiated, and marketed properly. The current generation has not been. In the consumers eyes (not yours, not mine; the average consumer) there are few difference between the RL and the TL--and they are not advantages (a higher price, more subdued styling, AWD in some instances). The RL needs to be radically different from the TL (and Accord) in all aspects to justify itself in the market place, and Acura needs to really show it.

dwboston

The RL in its current incarnation came out in 2004 as an 05 model and beyond the ACC/CMBS/PAX option in the 06 and above has not changed considerably since then. The tech in that RL (Nav, bluetooth, SH-AWD, etc) has found its way into the other Acura models and now the 08 Accord (at least the Nav. bluetooth, and maybe some styling cues). The next TL will be better than the last and the next RL will be better than this one. The Accord comparison is a joke - I don't really understand your point there. Cars age and the tech in higher-end models eventually flows through to the mass-market models once the costs have been lowered. There's a lot of similarity in terms of size and styling cues between Lexuses and Toyotas and Infinitis and Nissans. So what?

The RL is radically different from the TL. Acura never really positioned the car well and was selling TL's hand over fist at the point and the car languished. By this point Acura is probably well aware of the issues with this car and will attempt to make up for it with the next version.

neuronbob

There is a valid comparo between the new Accord and RL--the tech that was in our RL in 2004 (2005 MY) is now in the Accord.

Rest assured, if Acura wants to be taken seriously in the luxury world, the next RL will blow the TL and anything else in the Honda stable away. If not.....well, you know the old yarn....if you make a mistake once, that's fine, if you make it twice, you're dumber than shzt.

Mike_TX

I think it's a little odd to talk about the TL encroaching on RL sales. The TL is a different kind of car - a sport-oriented sedan built to appeal to a younger audience - and I expect the new TL to follow in that same successful vein.

The RL, OTOH, is a luxury sedan, and I can't see a TL wandering over into its territory. As those of us who have had both cars know, there is a big difference between the TL and the RL, and I expect that to continue to be the case. Otherwise, there's no point in having both models ... and no point in Acura trying to compete in the luxury sedan business. So I look for a larger RL - with a V-8 as an option - that falls somewhere between Infiniti M and Lexus LS levels of refinement.

As for the Sayama plant closing down for refurb and retooling, it's already been mentioned that another nearby plant is expected to come online at about the same time. In either case, shutdowns for retooling are a fact of life in the auto business.

If we put all the rumors together, it sure looks like Sayama is being shut down to tool up for a new RL to be debuted in early-to-mid 2008 as a 2009 model, probably with a base V-6 and an optional V-8. It will be a bit larger inside and out, and will incorporate new technology and amenities. In the meantime, MY 2008 production is being wrapped up by the Feb. shutdown date, since sales aren't really booming anyway.

All this makes sense to me, since flagging sales of the RL probably aren't keeping the Sayama plant (at least the U.S.-spec lines) operating at anywhere near capacity, and it costs money to keep it operating under those conditions. In addition, competition has really heated up in the lux and near-lux sedan categories, so change is needed sooner than normal. Honda surely sees the need to do something fairly dramatic to get things cooking again, and a triple-header new model introduction would make a nice stir in the industry.

Sure we're guessing, but the crystal ball appears to be getting a little clearer as time goes on.

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geronimomoe

But I haven't read of anyone seeing a new RL test mule. Isn't that saying a lot? To me, that seems to indicate that a RL isn't being planned for the immediate (1 year) future?

Perhaps as someone suggested, perhaps the RL is going into hiatus for 1 year, maybe 2.....

Mike_TX

As far as I know, no one saw the test mules for the 2nd gen RL, either, right up to the very last. All we had in 2003-2004 was a little cartoon-like line drawing of a car that turned out to be the RL. Honda is really, really good about keeping things under wraps, whereas many other mfr's like to leak info to gin up interest.

We now have the new thread this morning that seems to be supporting the rumors of a new RL next summer, so I'm a believer.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4876

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black label

^^^
C'mon Mike_TX, did you think I would I give you bad information?

Rexorg

I contacted the Internet Manager at my Acura dealer today about the new RL. Hopefully, he will be able to give me some updated information and I will pass it along ASAP.

Mike_TX

LOL. Nah - you've been pretty much on-target so far.

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Rexorg

Just heard back from the Internet Manager. He told me there are plenty of rumors, both good and bad, but no solid information yet. He said sales of new RLs is very, very slow, but used ones are a bit better. The TL-S is also a slow seller and there should be some great deals on both the RL and TL-S next spring. He tried to get me to pre-order (no deposit) an '09 TL, which gave me the feeling the RL may be toast.

BTW, my buddy who originally gave me the info about the upcoming RL retired at 62, so that source has dried up.

123456SPEED

You need a mule so back seat passengers can test leg room and cram more junk in the trunk?

pinkycat

As the proud and extremely satisfied owner of a used 2006 RL purchased in August, 2007, I submit that Acura's current marketing and dealerships (at least if the Denver area is any indication) will never lure the in sufficient numbers to matter the customers of other luxury brands, no matter what they come up with as the next RL. In fact, I submit if the current RL were a Lexus or Infiniti, it would be a big-time seller.

I purchased my RL in spite of Honda/Acura, not because of it. The level of butt-kissing and refniement I experienced at Lexus, MB, and Infiniti dealerships when shopping does not exist at Acura, and the Acura brand has been so poorly marketed as to hold little luxury cache in the public mind. People who buy these cars are buying prestige and the envy of others, not just cars.

I bought a Legend when they first came out in '86. That was the last time anybody I know thought Acura was a big deal, because Honda never spent the money to mesmerize the luxury market.

123456SPEED

If I get an RL it will also be a used one. Let the orig buyer pay the new car premium. The more it costs the more I would be lured to Lexus and BMW etc for resale purposes. resale (demand) for an unpopular car is much less than poular cars.

Even still, the RL is the best match for me considering all the 'competition', plus I'm an Acura fan overall. Also, I don't feel there is any real competition for what the RL offers, with it's reliability, exclusivity, features.

Mike_TX

I'd take it to mean he can make a better margin on a next-gen TL and is trying to get one of those in the sold column.

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