Acura RL and the Acura TL
12-11-2005, 09:39 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Acura RL and the Acura TL
2006 Acura RL specifications from Acura.com-
Overall length: 193.6 inches
Overall width: 72.7 inches
Wheelbase: 110.2 inches
Headroom (front/rear): 38.5 in/37.2 in
Legroom (front/rear): 42.4 in/36.3 in
2006 Acura TL specifications from Acura.com and Edmonds.com-
Overall length: 189.3 inches
Overall width: 72.2 inches
Wheelbase: 107.9 inches
Headroom (front/rear): 38.7 in/37.2 in
Legroom (front/rear): 42.8 in/34.9 in
Although the new TL has some minor legroom advantages, the RL is overall a slightly larger car. It is interesting to me how people complain about the similarities in size between the Acura RL and TL, but don't have much to say about the size similarities between the Lexus ES and GS, for example. Also, I believe the size difference between the new BMW 3-series and 5-series is less than with previous generations. The point being, although there isn't a tremendous difference in the size of the RL and TL, the difference still exists and is noticeable for some people, especially those who are displeased with the fact that the new TL is shorter than its predecessor.
Speaking of the previous-generation TL (1999-2003 model years), its styling was conservative like the current RL. Those who preferred that look are not pleased with the wannabe-BMW-boy-racer styling of the new TL. The new styling and the smaller size have alienated some TL drivers, and they are now prime candidates for the new RL.
Although it amazes me how many people actually look at the MSRP, I agree that the price should be lowered. I think the price on the sticker should be no higher than $47,000. Also, I think Acura (which is a primarily a marketing organization) should determine who the real customers of the new RL would be and adjust their efforts accordingly. Not only should Acura enhance and focus its print advertising (in my opinion), they should reinforce their PR with print media. Recently, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal discussing the increased use of AWD in sedans. They compared several cars in the article, but there was no mention of the Acura RL whatsoever. I think Acura's people should have been on the WSJ like white on rice because of that omission. PR has a strong influence on what periodicals write about, and Acura needs to strengthen that area.
Overall, here are some factors to consider with the RL:
1) The previous RL was Honda/Acura's attempt to compete with Lexus by making a car that looked like a wannabe Lexus LS, which itself looks like a wannabe Mercedes. That plan did not work. The new RL is "Honda being Honda" and following their corporate personality: have an engine that puts out relatively high hp from a relatively small engine with low emissions, add lots of gadgets, etc. It's like Honda's approach to this car is that "it is better to lose being yourself than to lose trying imitate someone else." Wouldn't it be nice if some politicians learned this approach?
2) The new TL was designed in the USA, built in the USA, to be sold exclusively in North America (mostly the USA). The new RL, on the other hand was designed in Japan, built in Japan, to be sold mostly in Japan. The looks of the cars reflect their different nationalities. Also, since the RL is meant to sell mostly in Japan (and around the world), I don't think Honda cares all that much if the RL sells 40,000 units in North America per model year; they are satisfied as long as sales don't dip far below 20,000.
So, what do you all think?
Overall length: 193.6 inches
Overall width: 72.7 inches
Wheelbase: 110.2 inches
Headroom (front/rear): 38.5 in/37.2 in
Legroom (front/rear): 42.4 in/36.3 in
2006 Acura TL specifications from Acura.com and Edmonds.com-
Overall length: 189.3 inches
Overall width: 72.2 inches
Wheelbase: 107.9 inches
Headroom (front/rear): 38.7 in/37.2 in
Legroom (front/rear): 42.8 in/34.9 in
Although the new TL has some minor legroom advantages, the RL is overall a slightly larger car. It is interesting to me how people complain about the similarities in size between the Acura RL and TL, but don't have much to say about the size similarities between the Lexus ES and GS, for example. Also, I believe the size difference between the new BMW 3-series and 5-series is less than with previous generations. The point being, although there isn't a tremendous difference in the size of the RL and TL, the difference still exists and is noticeable for some people, especially those who are displeased with the fact that the new TL is shorter than its predecessor.
Speaking of the previous-generation TL (1999-2003 model years), its styling was conservative like the current RL. Those who preferred that look are not pleased with the wannabe-BMW-boy-racer styling of the new TL. The new styling and the smaller size have alienated some TL drivers, and they are now prime candidates for the new RL.
Although it amazes me how many people actually look at the MSRP, I agree that the price should be lowered. I think the price on the sticker should be no higher than $47,000. Also, I think Acura (which is a primarily a marketing organization) should determine who the real customers of the new RL would be and adjust their efforts accordingly. Not only should Acura enhance and focus its print advertising (in my opinion), they should reinforce their PR with print media. Recently, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal discussing the increased use of AWD in sedans. They compared several cars in the article, but there was no mention of the Acura RL whatsoever. I think Acura's people should have been on the WSJ like white on rice because of that omission. PR has a strong influence on what periodicals write about, and Acura needs to strengthen that area.
Overall, here are some factors to consider with the RL:
1) The previous RL was Honda/Acura's attempt to compete with Lexus by making a car that looked like a wannabe Lexus LS, which itself looks like a wannabe Mercedes. That plan did not work. The new RL is "Honda being Honda" and following their corporate personality: have an engine that puts out relatively high hp from a relatively small engine with low emissions, add lots of gadgets, etc. It's like Honda's approach to this car is that "it is better to lose being yourself than to lose trying imitate someone else." Wouldn't it be nice if some politicians learned this approach?
2) The new TL was designed in the USA, built in the USA, to be sold exclusively in North America (mostly the USA). The new RL, on the other hand was designed in Japan, built in Japan, to be sold mostly in Japan. The looks of the cars reflect their different nationalities. Also, since the RL is meant to sell mostly in Japan (and around the world), I don't think Honda cares all that much if the RL sells 40,000 units in North America per model year; they are satisfied as long as sales don't dip far below 20,000.
So, what do you all think?
12-11-2005, 04:00 PM
#2
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Acura's goal is/was to sell 20,000 RL's a year.
But I agree with you. One of the major things the RL is missing is proper PR and marketing. ALL magazines that have compared the RL to the Lexus GS have claimed the RL to be the better car (more power, more technology, better build quality and materials, etc...), yet the Lexus sells in double the numbers. Why? Lexus just does a better job of marketing itself as a luxury car. Aside from that, there is no difference between Lexus and Acura. Most people know this but are WAAAAY to biased to admit it. Additionally, the RL should have been sold NOT fully loaded with a lower starting MSRP. This in turn would have attracted more buyers into the showroom and they could have tailored the RL to their own specific needs and wants.
But I agree with you. One of the major things the RL is missing is proper PR and marketing. ALL magazines that have compared the RL to the Lexus GS have claimed the RL to be the better car (more power, more technology, better build quality and materials, etc...), yet the Lexus sells in double the numbers. Why? Lexus just does a better job of marketing itself as a luxury car. Aside from that, there is no difference between Lexus and Acura. Most people know this but are WAAAAY to biased to admit it. Additionally, the RL should have been sold NOT fully loaded with a lower starting MSRP. This in turn would have attracted more buyers into the showroom and they could have tailored the RL to their own specific needs and wants.
12-11-2005, 04:16 PM
#3
Originally Posted by vtecracer
. Additionally, the RL should have been sold NOT fully loaded with a lower starting MSRP. This in turn would have attracted more buyers into the showroom and they could have tailored the RL to their own specific needs and wants.
12-11-2005, 04:50 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Selling different versions of the car with different option packages etc. greatly increases the production cost of the car. Because the RL was intended to be a low-volume, temporary flagship (while waiting for the new NSX), they kept costs down by building them all the same way and offering a few dealer-installed accessories for those who wished to add options to their RL. They already had to make different versions of the RL/Legend for the Canadian market, the European market, the American market and the Japanese market. If you add different versions of the car to each of those markets, they would have to make them 100 at a time and they would be retooling the factory every week.
12-11-2005, 07:45 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by hondamore
Selling different versions of the car with different option packages etc. greatly increases the production cost of the car. Because the RL was intended to be a low-volume, temporary flagship (while waiting for the new NSX), they kept costs down by building them all the same way and offering a few dealer-installed accessories for those who wished to add options to their RL. They already had to make different versions of the RL/Legend for the Canadian market, the European market, the American market and the Japanese market. If you add different versions of the car to each of those markets, they would have to make them 100 at a time and they would be retooling the factory every week.
Maybe Acura should have just offered the RL with everything the currently include, but with a slightly lower MSRP (say, $47,000 or $48,000)?
12-11-2005, 08:01 PM
#7
If they had done it at 47k I think the price wouldn't have scared of so many people. I don't know many people who would be willing to spend 50 for the acura name. Wheras, if it had lexus badges on it, they would shell out the cash right away.
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12-11-2005, 08:12 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Here are my predictions:
1) the MSRP of this generation of RL will increase by only a few hundred per year, but it will never hit $51,000. Meanwhile the MSRP of competing cars will increase substantially per year.
2) eventually, A-spec will become standard equipment for the sub $51,000 MSRP.
1) the MSRP of this generation of RL will increase by only a few hundred per year, but it will never hit $51,000. Meanwhile the MSRP of competing cars will increase substantially per year.
2) eventually, A-spec will become standard equipment for the sub $51,000 MSRP.
12-12-2005, 09:10 AM
#9
office monkey
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Acura's goal is/was to sell 20,000 RL's a year.
. Why? Lexus just does a better job of marketing itself as a luxury car. Aside from that, there is no difference between Lexus and Acura. Most people know this but are WAAAAY to biased to admit it.
. Why? Lexus just does a better job of marketing itself as a luxury car. Aside from that, there is no difference between Lexus and Acura. Most people know this but are WAAAAY to biased to admit it.
Just because the new RL is on par with Lexus quality doesn't automatically make the whole brand and its history on par with Lexus.
Go sit in any acura model aside from the RL and then go sit in any Lexus model and tell me they are equal in quality.
I think those who think Acura is on par with Lexus are the ones who are WAAAAY too biased.
12-12-2005, 10:16 AM
#10
Dan at Sunnyside
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The RL, like most Acuras represents a great value even at MSRP.
Building all RL's the same ( and the other Acura Models in only a couple
variations ) in very smart from a manufacturing point, both in minimizing
cost and keeping quality high. In a "previous life" I was a manufacturing
manager for 15 years and now I am selling Acuras, so I naturally tend
to look at how Acura builds and sells their cars from a manufacturing point.
I have been selling Acuras for about 3 years now and my personal opinion
is they should raise the MSRP on most models, if anything. Why? Because of
the horse trading mentality that has always been a part of the car business.
People don't look at an Acura and see what it offers for the price ( value ), they
just immediately want something off the price ( normal expectation when
purchasing a car ). The TSX is classic, there isn't a lot of margin in the car and
the car as equipped is usually less expensive, sometimes by thousands of
dollars, than a competitor. If they priced the car $2000 higher, I could offer a
bigger discount, sell them at the same price I do now easier and everybody
would be happy!
I know it is a generalization, but I would definitely NOT
lower the MSRP on any Acura.
variations ) in very smart from a manufacturing point, both in minimizing
cost and keeping quality high. In a "previous life" I was a manufacturing
manager for 15 years and now I am selling Acuras, so I naturally tend
to look at how Acura builds and sells their cars from a manufacturing point.
I have been selling Acuras for about 3 years now and my personal opinion
is they should raise the MSRP on most models, if anything. Why? Because of
the horse trading mentality that has always been a part of the car business.
People don't look at an Acura and see what it offers for the price ( value ), they
just immediately want something off the price ( normal expectation when
purchasing a car ). The TSX is classic, there isn't a lot of margin in the car and
the car as equipped is usually less expensive, sometimes by thousands of
dollars, than a competitor. If they priced the car $2000 higher, I could offer a
bigger discount, sell them at the same price I do now easier and everybody
would be happy!
I know it is a generalization, but I would definitely NOTlower the MSRP on any Acura.
12-12-2005, 11:14 AM
#11
CLS 6MT Navi
Interesting ideas. but I think many people buy Acuras because they are cheaper than the prices on Lexus and the Germans. I think Acura's marketing strategy is to present a car that is loaded with features at a cheaper 'suggested' price. To raise the MSRP would totally go against their strategy. Many people shop by price and won't even look at a car if the retail price is above their limit.
A salesman looks at sales strategies like you suggest, but Acura is looking at marketing.
this is why I have avoided buying Lexus and German, the premium price built-in for the popular brand name is a turn off. I think service may be better at Lexus but I think overall quality is very close, and the Acura quality comes at a cheaper admission price.
A salesman looks at sales strategies like you suggest, but Acura is looking at marketing.
this is why I have avoided buying Lexus and German, the premium price built-in for the popular brand name is a turn off. I think service may be better at Lexus but I think overall quality is very close, and the Acura quality comes at a cheaper admission price.
12-12-2005, 01:25 PM
#12
Карты убийцы
Honda, in general, is slowly losing it's position to Toyota. I don't think there is any one reason, but their stubborness with 4 cylinders and FWD is a big part. Was it a fifth generation Accord that finally had a V-6?
12-12-2005, 01:42 PM
#13
'05 Acura RL - CGP/Ebony
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Originally Posted by 123456SPEED
Interesting ideas. but I think many people buy Acuras because they are cheaper than the prices on Lexus and the Germans. I think Acura's marketing strategy is to present a car that is loaded with features at a cheaper 'suggested' price. To raise the MSRP would totally go against their strategy. Many people shop by price and won't even look at a car if the retail price is above their limit.
A salesman looks at sales strategies like you suggest, but Acura is looking at marketing.
this is why I have avoided buying Lexus and German, the premium price built-in for the popular brand name is a turn off. I think service may be better at Lexus but I think overall quality is very close, and the Acura quality comes at a cheaper admission price.
A salesman looks at sales strategies like you suggest, but Acura is looking at marketing.
this is why I have avoided buying Lexus and German, the premium price built-in for the popular brand name is a turn off. I think service may be better at Lexus but I think overall quality is very close, and the Acura quality comes at a cheaper admission price.
12-12-2005, 01:42 PM
#14
Just a a note from my seat of the pants feel from sitting in the TL vs RL..the numbers may say the TL has slightly more leg room, but the RL's backseat, despite the similar numbers in measurement, felt more comfy, roomier. Even though the RL's rear seat was more plush than in the TL, it still felt more comfortable back there.
12-12-2005, 01:55 PM
#15
'05 Acura RL - CGP/Ebony
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Originally Posted by DWeier
Building all RL's the same ( and the other Acura Models in only a couple
variations ) in very smart from a manufacturing point, both in minimizing
cost and keeping quality high. In a "previous life" I was a manufacturing
manager for 15 years and now I am selling Acuras, so I naturally tend
to look at how Acura builds and sells their cars from a manufacturing point.
I have been selling Acuras for about 3 years now and my personal opinion
is they should raise the MSRP on most models, if anything. Why? Because of
the horse trading mentality that has always been a part of the car business.
People don't look at an Acura and see what it offers for the price ( value ), they
just immediately want something off the price ( normal expectation when
purchasing a car ). The TSX is classic, there isn't a lot of margin in the car and
the car as equipped is usually less expensive, sometimes by thousands of
dollars, than a competitor. If they priced the car $2000 higher, I could offer a
bigger discount, sell them at the same price I do now easier and everybody
would be happy! I know it is a generalization, but I would definitely NOT
lower the MSRP on any Acura.
variations ) in very smart from a manufacturing point, both in minimizing
cost and keeping quality high. In a "previous life" I was a manufacturing
manager for 15 years and now I am selling Acuras, so I naturally tend
to look at how Acura builds and sells their cars from a manufacturing point.
I have been selling Acuras for about 3 years now and my personal opinion
is they should raise the MSRP on most models, if anything. Why? Because of
the horse trading mentality that has always been a part of the car business.
People don't look at an Acura and see what it offers for the price ( value ), they
just immediately want something off the price ( normal expectation when
purchasing a car ). The TSX is classic, there isn't a lot of margin in the car and
the car as equipped is usually less expensive, sometimes by thousands of
dollars, than a competitor. If they priced the car $2000 higher, I could offer a
bigger discount, sell them at the same price I do now easier and everybody
would be happy!
I know it is a generalization, but I would definitely NOTlower the MSRP on any Acura.
Let's site a couple of examples in th Acura line:
TSX: I think the reason it sells so well is because it's a good value as priced. It compares well with other cars (Accord for instance). If you raised it $2K, you'd lose that portion of the crossover market. (My son owns one.)
TL: Like the TSX, the reason it sells so well is because it's a good value as priced. It compares well with other cars in it's class (BMW, Infinity, Lexus, etc) . If you raised it $2K, you'd lose some portion of the crossover market. (I've owned a 2003 and a 2004.)
RL: In this case, I'd say they should lower the price about $2k so it's around $47K. I own a 2005 now. The reason I got one is because iI was able to buy a 2005 at the end of the year. I would not have looked as intently if it was still at full price because I think that -- although it's a wonderful car -- it's a difficult $15k jump (from the TL) to justify.
Of course, these are just my opinions, but I think that rasing the prices would be a mistake.
12-12-2005, 04:08 PM
#16
Black
I've now owned both, and my opinions:
TL: better looking, faster, but build quality is crap. Make a hard turn and the sunroof/headliner makes a cracking noise. Not good for a $35k car.
RL: 'frumpier' and more uncomfortable drivers seat (my opinion, don't flame me), but technology and quality are light years beyond TL.
So maybe if quality of RL waterfalls to TL, I'd go back. At least Acura kept me in the brand.
Also note that TL's touchscreen navi is much preferred to myself and others over the iDrive/MMI/etc. knob.
-josh
TL: better looking, faster, but build quality is crap. Make a hard turn and the sunroof/headliner makes a cracking noise. Not good for a $35k car.
RL: 'frumpier' and more uncomfortable drivers seat (my opinion, don't flame me), but technology and quality are light years beyond TL.
So maybe if quality of RL waterfalls to TL, I'd go back. At least Acura kept me in the brand.
Also note that TL's touchscreen navi is much preferred to myself and others over the iDrive/MMI/etc. knob.
-josh
12-12-2005, 05:20 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Professor
Honda, in general, is slowly losing it's position to Toyota. I don't think there is any one reason, but their stubborness with 4 cylinders and FWD is a big part. Was it a fifth generation Accord that finally had a V-6?
12-12-2005, 05:21 PM
#18
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
Honda's losing what position to Toyota? Toyota has always been a bigger car company than Honda, the Camry has outsold the Accord for several years, and the Lexus brand has outsold the Acura brand almost since the inception of Lexus.
12-13-2005, 09:11 AM
#19
Карты убийцы
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
Honda's losing what position to Toyota? Toyota has always been a bigger car company than Honda, the Camry has outsold the Accord for several years, and the Lexus brand has outsold the Acura brand almost since the inception of Lexus.
12-13-2005, 06:21 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Professor
I should have been more specific. They are losing their position relative to their position in the late 80's and 90's. In a few more years, Hyundai will give Honda a run for its money not only in terms of sales figures, but selection and quality of products.
Also, I'm not sure about losing their position relative to the 1980's and 1990's. Acura is actually doing quite well. In the 2004 model year, Acura sold more TL's than they sold all of their models combined in 1994. Also in MY 2004, Acura became the 5th largest-selling luxury brand in the U.S.A. Mercedes was #4. I haven't seen MY 2005's numbers yet, but I would guess that Acura caught up with Mercedes, if last year's trend continued.
Overall, Acura's doing well. Although some folks criticize the RL's sales, it has improved dramatically over its predecessor, which helps to strengthen a weak link in the lineup.
12-14-2005, 11:57 AM
#22
Drifting
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RL should have been slightly larger IMO.
It may be slightly larger than the 3rd gen TL but it is smaller in some ways than the 2nd gen TL.
This puts it into a bit of identity crisis.
TSX = 3 series
TL = 5 series
RL = between 5 and 7 would have been better
More importantly, you would think that putting a 3.5 litre engine into a car roughly the same size would make it faster, but the weight of AWD makes it slower than both 2nd and 3rd gen TL. So you don't get the extra size and you pay the extra weight penalty.
And finally, the RSX headlights on the RL are the deal killer for me. They should have kept closer to the TSX/TL family resemblance.
It may be slightly larger than the 3rd gen TL but it is smaller in some ways than the 2nd gen TL.
This puts it into a bit of identity crisis.
TSX = 3 series
TL = 5 series
RL = between 5 and 7 would have been better
More importantly, you would think that putting a 3.5 litre engine into a car roughly the same size would make it faster, but the weight of AWD makes it slower than both 2nd and 3rd gen TL. So you don't get the extra size and you pay the extra weight penalty.
And finally, the RSX headlights on the RL are the deal killer for me. They should have kept closer to the TSX/TL family resemblance.
12-17-2005, 02:59 AM
#25
Racer
Originally Posted by vp911
I wouldn't say it is worthless, but I would like to know what you mean by that? How some of us feel that Lexus is better?
Now, if we only compare to Lexus (to make thing simple), for example, I want an V8 and can afford LS430. Then, which car can I compare to in Honda's line? None. So, even though I am Honda's fan, I have no choice but go with Lexus. Same thing applies to S2000 as well. Toyota has nothing to go against S2000, that's why S2000 is doing so well. So, Honda should have something to compete with GS, and LS V8. Honda is doing a good job at low-end like Civic-Corolla (I can't wait to see how new 2006 Civic Si doing
), Accord-Camry, Insight-Prius, Oddessy-Sienna, etc. As a result, if they don't want to lose customers, they should have something up to compete. (unless Honda comes up with extremely unique car such as S2000)Another advantage of Toyota over Honda is they design car for older people who have more money (I am sorry if I insult younger people who make a lot of money). So, they make cars that 2-5K more expensive is not a big deal to consumer.
Lexus quality is better than Acura, there is no doubt about that, but how much better is the "real" question? I think, not much. In other words, Lexus quality is not 2-5K more than Acura quality, hence Lexus is overpriced as Japanese car.
However, for older people they have more money and they are really picky about quality, -> Lexus is doing the right thing.
In regard of options, some like to have everything, while others don't, that's up to individual. However, it is extremely difficult for people who buy used car, because the value is not the same for the same model, not to mention the condition and the whole 9 yards of used car. But Toyota used car has better value because of Toyota quality is slightly better than Honda, and people overlook that there is a second option (Honda) is a tiny bit worse but cheaper. Sure, if you have money to spare then, why not go for better quality, but not everybody has money to spare.
Last point, the new top of the line Accord is a little more expensive than top of Camry, and have many cool features. I think Honda did a right thing. Then, people start complaining how Accord has most of TL features and cheaper. I think, Accord is still Accord even though it has everything TL has ( I am sorry again if I insult Accord owner). In the end, in order to win the race you have to take the lead, even if you are the target of criticism.
Well, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong, so don't hesitate to correct and have comments. Sorry for the long post, and I am not an economist either. By the way, I am engineering major
12-17-2005, 07:48 AM
#26
You make some damn good points. My only argument there is your comparison of Acura vs Lexus. On one hand, there isn't much of an argument, because Acura has been targeting the sporty side of luxury cars. Now, with the new GS and IS, we can compare. 5k more for a GS - you get more. The refinement is there. Quietness of the car is subjective, but lexus is silent. Some people want this, and will pay for it. IMO the leather is better in the GS. Everything lexus does for refinement of the interior makes their cars worth 5k more - but ONLY for those people who really want the additional work. The biggest factor is the level of service you rcv. Lexus will almost always take care of you whereas Acura will fight you or say its normal. E.g. My TL had a few rattles, the Acura dealer said too bad. Our RX300 had a rattle in the rear, they didn't bother making excuses, they took it, gave me a loaner, fixed the rattle and told me they put sound dampening material there to stop the rattle. No questions asked. Service loaners - some Acura dealers dont provide them at all, some provide it only for major services. My dealer will provide them for major services - ONLY if you schedule 2-3 weeks in advance. Lexus - for an oil change you have a loaner if you schedule 2 days in advance. They also give you the same car, e.g. if you drive an RX300, you get no more than a two year old RX (in this case RX330). Acura over here, you get a TSX - a lot of dealers will call a rental company and give you a taurus. 
IMO after dealing with Acura for so long, I will gladly pay $5k more for this level of refinement and service. And hell, the lexus dealer has a huge waiting area with plasma TVs, a food area with tons of snacks, fresh coffee (espresso, mocha, regular coffee, etc), muffins, cookies, crackers, fruit, etc.
IMO after dealing with Acura for so long, I will gladly pay $5k more for this level of refinement and service. And hell, the lexus dealer has a huge waiting area with plasma TVs, a food area with tons of snacks, fresh coffee (espresso, mocha, regular coffee, etc), muffins, cookies, crackers, fruit, etc.
12-17-2005, 08:48 AM
#27
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Those were some really good points!
12-17-2005, 11:12 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by invincible569
Maybe Acura would rather spend the extra cash on the car and not in marketing? Actions speak louder than words and therefore the Acura's sometimes get better reviews.
That's got to be poor marketing. Brand image and awareness helps bring customers into the door. Not all customers will buy the product, but you have to get people coming into the showrooms.
12-17-2005, 12:04 PM
#29
What Acura needs to do, is to improve it's image in terms of prestige and excitement.
The TSX and TL are wonderful cars. Great style, performance, and value are the main reasons that both cars have remained great sellers. As we move in the future (either after a redesign or perhaps sooner with a refresh), I expect the TL to get a SH-AWD option.
Obviously this may hurt the RL, but the RL will probably get its own major selling point (a V8 engine is almost assured for the next gen). The RL is truly a great car as well, but I think that they could have styled the car a little more aggressive. It's very unfortunate when some people mistake it for an Accord. As far as the changes to help the current model, it would be of great benefit to redesign the stock wheels and perhaps make slight exterior style changes in the form of a face lift that all cars undergo. The interior on the other hand, is amongst the best in class.
The new NSX (or equivalent) will sport a V10 and won't be as overpriced as the previous car. This car will be huge in terms of creating the halo effect that luxury brands need. Infiniti is getting with the picture as well, by bringing the Skyline GT-R over here as the Infiniti GT-R.
Also, Acura needs to drop the RSX. It's a great car, but it's too far down the price spectrum. Rumor is that this will indeed be the case in a year or so. Also, the canadian CSX is truly a joke. Neither Lexus nor Infiniti would be dumb enough to rebadge their Corolla or Sentra with their luxury badges....
Perhaps further great news for the brand is that Acura will launch in Japan in 2008. This means that the Brand will truly have the full support, resources, and goals to put it in more serious fighting with Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus.
Also, rumors down the line suggest that Acura will bring a coupe/convertible in the $40-45k range, perhaps a TSX coupe (this should be the next RSX imo), and a luxury car above the RL. With the redesigned MDX and new RDX on the way, the lineup is going to see big changes (and excitement) in these next few years. The major upheaval the lineup will see around the same time will also allow it to enter Japan without rebadging any of the cars they sell now under the "H".
The TSX and TL are wonderful cars. Great style, performance, and value are the main reasons that both cars have remained great sellers. As we move in the future (either after a redesign or perhaps sooner with a refresh), I expect the TL to get a SH-AWD option.
Obviously this may hurt the RL, but the RL will probably get its own major selling point (a V8 engine is almost assured for the next gen). The RL is truly a great car as well, but I think that they could have styled the car a little more aggressive. It's very unfortunate when some people mistake it for an Accord. As far as the changes to help the current model, it would be of great benefit to redesign the stock wheels and perhaps make slight exterior style changes in the form of a face lift that all cars undergo. The interior on the other hand, is amongst the best in class.
The new NSX (or equivalent) will sport a V10 and won't be as overpriced as the previous car. This car will be huge in terms of creating the halo effect that luxury brands need. Infiniti is getting with the picture as well, by bringing the Skyline GT-R over here as the Infiniti GT-R.
Also, Acura needs to drop the RSX. It's a great car, but it's too far down the price spectrum. Rumor is that this will indeed be the case in a year or so. Also, the canadian CSX is truly a joke. Neither Lexus nor Infiniti would be dumb enough to rebadge their Corolla or Sentra with their luxury badges....
Perhaps further great news for the brand is that Acura will launch in Japan in 2008. This means that the Brand will truly have the full support, resources, and goals to put it in more serious fighting with Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus.
Also, rumors down the line suggest that Acura will bring a coupe/convertible in the $40-45k range, perhaps a TSX coupe (this should be the next RSX imo), and a luxury car above the RL. With the redesigned MDX and new RDX on the way, the lineup is going to see big changes (and excitement) in these next few years. The major upheaval the lineup will see around the same time will also allow it to enter Japan without rebadging any of the cars they sell now under the "H".
12-18-2005, 02:48 AM
#30
Racer
Originally Posted by Guy Legend
What Acura needs to do, is to improve it's image in terms of prestige and excitement.
Also, Acura needs to drop the RSX. It's a great car, but it's too far down the price spectrum. Rumor is that this will indeed be the case in a year or so. Also, the canadian CSX is truly a joke. Neither Lexus nor Infiniti would be dumb enough to rebadge their Corolla or Sentra with their luxury badges....
Also, Acura needs to drop the RSX. It's a great car, but it's too far down the price spectrum. Rumor is that this will indeed be the case in a year or so. Also, the canadian CSX is truly a joke. Neither Lexus nor Infiniti would be dumb enough to rebadge their Corolla or Sentra with their luxury badges....
12-18-2005, 02:50 AM
#31
Racer
Originally Posted by vp911
You make some damn good points. My only argument there is your comparison of Acura vs Lexus. On one hand, there isn't much of an argument, because Acura has been targeting the sporty side of luxury cars. Now, with the new GS and IS, we can compare. 5k more for a GS - you get more. The refinement is there. Quietness of the car is subjective, but lexus is silent. Some people want this, and will pay for it. IMO the leather is better in the GS. Everything lexus does for refinement of the interior makes their cars worth 5k more - but ONLY for those people who really want the additional work. The biggest factor is the level of service you rcv. Lexus will almost always take care of you whereas Acura will fight you or say its normal. E.g. My TL had a few rattles, the Acura dealer said too bad. Our RX300 had a rattle in the rear, they didn't bother making excuses, they took it, gave me a loaner, fixed the rattle and told me they put sound dampening material there to stop the rattle. No questions asked. Service loaners - some Acura dealers dont provide them at all, some provide it only for major services. My dealer will provide them for major services - ONLY if you schedule 2-3 weeks in advance. Lexus - for an oil change you have a loaner if you schedule 2 days in advance. They also give you the same car, e.g. if you drive an RX300, you get no more than a two year old RX (in this case RX330). Acura over here, you get a TSX - a lot of dealers will call a rental company and give you a taurus.
IMO after dealing with Acura for so long, I will gladly pay $5k more for this level of refinement and service. And hell, the lexus dealer has a huge waiting area with plasma TVs, a food area with tons of snacks, fresh coffee (espresso, mocha, regular coffee, etc), muffins, cookies, crackers, fruit, etc.
IMO after dealing with Acura for so long, I will gladly pay $5k more for this level of refinement and service. And hell, the lexus dealer has a huge waiting area with plasma TVs, a food area with tons of snacks, fresh coffee (espresso, mocha, regular coffee, etc), muffins, cookies, crackers, fruit, etc.
12-18-2005, 01:54 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by khoifl
Hmm, you make Lexus dealership is sound so superior. If I have money for my next car, I would surely try out Lexus.
As for the new GS, he will be getting it soon, and we'll compare his GS to my RL and see how it varies. Their both great cars.
And you'd be surprised how well the CSX/EL(based on last gen civic) is doing well. Infact it's to the point for every Civic i see, i see a matching EL. Easy. It's a luxury civic, true, a joke perhaps, but wehn you get the Acura cornering, luxury and ride, that luxo civic becomes alot better then you think.
12-27-2005, 02:39 PM
#33
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Lexus vs. Acura
In previous posts I have been pretty vocal about the credibility gap bewteen Lexus and Acura services. But After driving the RL since Thanksgiving I have a few other insights. We had guests from out of the country staying with us through Christmas and I used my LS400 to drive them around. It just was roomier, quieter and much more comfortable for everyone. Here I am with a brand new car and I'm using the one with 85,000 miles on it. Weird. And I find it strange how hard it is for me to sell the LS. Don't get me wrong, I would much rather DRIVE the RL if it is just me in the car. But I will really miss the room and seats and serenity of the Lexus and the effortless power delivery of the V8. And, again - the SERVICE! And if I had to do it all over again I don't know if I wouldn't buy the GS300AWD (or GS430 if not living in the Rust Belt).
- But I really do love the RL: Its stereo is superb (and I have been in the audio industry for 25 years with many killer aftermarket systems along the way!), Nav is second to none, handling/grip tremendous, paddle shifters work great - and I really like the styling/stance...and even the smaller size of the vehicle for just my girlfreind and me in the car for usage.
12-27-2005, 06:40 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Sounds to me like you should keep both cars! The Lexus LS and the Acura RL are very different and are not meant to compete with each other, so why not enjoy both?
12-27-2005, 10:41 PM
#36
Originally Posted by Guy Legend
What Acura needs to do, is to improve it's image in terms of prestige and excitement.
The TSX and TL are wonderful cars. Great style, performance, and value are the main reasons that both cars have remained great sellers. As we move in the future (either after a redesign or perhaps sooner with a refresh), I expect the TL to get a SH-AWD option.
Obviously this may hurt the RL, but the RL will probably get its own major selling point (a V8 engine is almost assured for the next gen). The RL is truly a great car as well, but I think that they could have styled the car a little more aggressive. It's very unfortunate when some people mistake it for an Accord. As far as the changes to help the current model, it would be of great benefit to redesign the stock wheels and perhaps make slight exterior style changes in the form of a face lift that all cars undergo. The interior on the other hand, is amongst the best in class.
The new NSX (or equivalent) will sport a V10 and won't be as overpriced as the previous car. This car will be huge in terms of creating the halo effect that luxury brands need. Infiniti is getting with the picture as well, by bringing the Skyline GT-R over here as the Infiniti GT-R.
Also, Acura needs to drop the RSX. It's a great car, but it's too far down the price spectrum. Rumor is that this will indeed be the case in a year or so. Also, the canadian CSX is truly a joke. Neither Lexus nor Infiniti would be dumb enough to rebadge their Corolla or Sentra with their luxury badges....
Perhaps further great news for the brand is that Acura will launch in Japan in 2008. This means that the Brand will truly have the full support, resources, and goals to put it in more serious fighting with Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus.
Also, rumors down the line suggest that Acura will bring a coupe/convertible in the $40-45k range, perhaps a TSX coupe (this should be the next RSX imo), and a luxury car above the RL. With the redesigned MDX and new RDX on the way, the lineup is going to see big changes (and excitement) in these next few years. The major upheaval the lineup will see around the same time will also allow it to enter Japan without rebadging any of the cars they sell now under the "H".
The TSX and TL are wonderful cars. Great style, performance, and value are the main reasons that both cars have remained great sellers. As we move in the future (either after a redesign or perhaps sooner with a refresh), I expect the TL to get a SH-AWD option.
Obviously this may hurt the RL, but the RL will probably get its own major selling point (a V8 engine is almost assured for the next gen). The RL is truly a great car as well, but I think that they could have styled the car a little more aggressive. It's very unfortunate when some people mistake it for an Accord. As far as the changes to help the current model, it would be of great benefit to redesign the stock wheels and perhaps make slight exterior style changes in the form of a face lift that all cars undergo. The interior on the other hand, is amongst the best in class.
The new NSX (or equivalent) will sport a V10 and won't be as overpriced as the previous car. This car will be huge in terms of creating the halo effect that luxury brands need. Infiniti is getting with the picture as well, by bringing the Skyline GT-R over here as the Infiniti GT-R.
Also, Acura needs to drop the RSX. It's a great car, but it's too far down the price spectrum. Rumor is that this will indeed be the case in a year or so. Also, the canadian CSX is truly a joke. Neither Lexus nor Infiniti would be dumb enough to rebadge their Corolla or Sentra with their luxury badges....
Perhaps further great news for the brand is that Acura will launch in Japan in 2008. This means that the Brand will truly have the full support, resources, and goals to put it in more serious fighting with Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus.
Also, rumors down the line suggest that Acura will bring a coupe/convertible in the $40-45k range, perhaps a TSX coupe (this should be the next RSX imo), and a luxury car above the RL. With the redesigned MDX and new RDX on the way, the lineup is going to see big changes (and excitement) in these next few years. The major upheaval the lineup will see around the same time will also allow it to enter Japan without rebadging any of the cars they sell now under the "H".
You might also want to add that Honda should stop basing Acura cars on the Civic and Accord platforms, and make a true RWD platform with V8. Yes, it's been beaten to death but that doesn't make it any less true.
Just about all of Honda/Acura's lineup is based on the Civic and Accord, other than the S2k and NSX.
12-27-2005, 11:44 PM
#37
Product Positioning
Great discussion and thread. Just the stuff I love to sink my teeth into. Like may of you I enjoy speculating on marketing strategy and consumer behaivor when it comes to cars...so here is my two cents. I am a new Acura TL owner having previously grown up on Nissans all my life.
I believe that Acura suffers a bit in the "luxury line" mindshare over it's competitors becuase of confusion that occurs at the transition from their main line brand (Honda) and the luxury market. With the average price of a car being over 20K...I have some issues with a "luxury" nameplate offering vehicles priced in the mid-20's. When the Japanese makers were brilliant enough to develop their luxury brands 20 years ago...they recognized the importance of brand positioning. Now...over the past 20 years, the main line flagships have moved up along the way (20k+ for an Accord) and their luxury brands have tried to expand in both directions. This has resulted in more and more overlap between the brands in price, engine size, etc. Maxima/G35 is a good example.
I would look to recalibrate the Acura brand badge by trying to cut out some of the overlap (find a new place for the TSX) and make the TL the entry level "luxury" car. Drop any 4 cylinder luxury offerings...sorry but this just dillutes the brand a bit and makes that 50K price for the RL with the same nameplate a bit harder to capture.
We have seen struggles with brands that get to wide....VW's Phanton is a perfect example.
BMW is smart to not bring over to the US one of their sub 3-series European offerings...because I think they know it would begin to dillute the brand and would impact 5- and 7-series status over time. What did BMW do...it created a sub brand Mini to carefully capture this share without killing their image. I still have problems with the Mercedes 230 offering hovering at 30K. A 30K Jag...come on! These luxury brands need to carefully watch that low end creep...becuase once the damage is done it will take years to fix it.
So to sum it up....Acura should trim the bottom of their line a bit. Make the entry level Acura a 30K plus car. Then I would differentiate the luxury brand buy becoming the "advanced technology" leader. Acura's engineering could do well in this space and could differentiate it from the Driving Machine BMW....and the uber soft/plushness of the older demo Lexus brand.
I selected the Acura product over the Infiniti I was looking at (G35) becuase I liked the bells and whistles. The navigation, voice commands, BLuetooth and even DVD-A were are all cool and come standard....(obviously the non-navi being the exception). The RL should be a technology show case and it's marketing should hit this point home. It should be an experiential flagship that is first to market with at least 2 or 3 technologies with each model revision.
Of course it needs to be competitive for driving comfort, HP etc...but it doesn't have to WIN in these categories. It does need to WIN someplace, and this should be to provide the latest cutting edge techonologies in most all of their vehicles for an all inclusive package price that translates into value for the consumer.
I believe that Acura suffers a bit in the "luxury line" mindshare over it's competitors becuase of confusion that occurs at the transition from their main line brand (Honda) and the luxury market. With the average price of a car being over 20K...I have some issues with a "luxury" nameplate offering vehicles priced in the mid-20's. When the Japanese makers were brilliant enough to develop their luxury brands 20 years ago...they recognized the importance of brand positioning. Now...over the past 20 years, the main line flagships have moved up along the way (20k+ for an Accord) and their luxury brands have tried to expand in both directions. This has resulted in more and more overlap between the brands in price, engine size, etc. Maxima/G35 is a good example.
I would look to recalibrate the Acura brand badge by trying to cut out some of the overlap (find a new place for the TSX) and make the TL the entry level "luxury" car. Drop any 4 cylinder luxury offerings...sorry but this just dillutes the brand a bit and makes that 50K price for the RL with the same nameplate a bit harder to capture.
We have seen struggles with brands that get to wide....VW's Phanton is a perfect example.
BMW is smart to not bring over to the US one of their sub 3-series European offerings...because I think they know it would begin to dillute the brand and would impact 5- and 7-series status over time. What did BMW do...it created a sub brand Mini to carefully capture this share without killing their image. I still have problems with the Mercedes 230 offering hovering at 30K. A 30K Jag...come on! These luxury brands need to carefully watch that low end creep...becuase once the damage is done it will take years to fix it.
So to sum it up....Acura should trim the bottom of their line a bit. Make the entry level Acura a 30K plus car. Then I would differentiate the luxury brand buy becoming the "advanced technology" leader. Acura's engineering could do well in this space and could differentiate it from the Driving Machine BMW....and the uber soft/plushness of the older demo Lexus brand.
I selected the Acura product over the Infiniti I was looking at (G35) becuase I liked the bells and whistles. The navigation, voice commands, BLuetooth and even DVD-A were are all cool and come standard....(obviously the non-navi being the exception). The RL should be a technology show case and it's marketing should hit this point home. It should be an experiential flagship that is first to market with at least 2 or 3 technologies with each model revision.
Of course it needs to be competitive for driving comfort, HP etc...but it doesn't have to WIN in these categories. It does need to WIN someplace, and this should be to provide the latest cutting edge techonologies in most all of their vehicles for an all inclusive package price that translates into value for the consumer.
12-27-2005, 11:57 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
So here's the question: does Honda really want a "true" luxury brand or do they simply want an excuse to increase factory utilization (and increase economy of scale) by creating more cars based on the same platforms? I think it is the latter, which makes business since for a relatively small car company, but does not necessarily please the consumer. In other words, is Honda willingly giving up the true luxury buyer, someone who would buy an S-class Mercedes or Lexus LS, just so they can extend their platforms?
12-28-2005, 12:36 AM
#39
BOth
I don't think factory utlization rates and luxury brands are mutually exclusive. They can have both...and should strive for this with standardization, shared platforms etc.
Luxury cars do two important things...
1. Provide a step-up progression for their buyer base. If you don't extend up, you will loose that repeat buyer eventually.
2. Provide higher margin, lower volume offerings. The money made on one RL would probably be the same as selling 5 Accords.
Luxury cars do two important things...
1. Provide a step-up progression for their buyer base. If you don't extend up, you will loose that repeat buyer eventually.
2. Provide higher margin, lower volume offerings. The money made on one RL would probably be the same as selling 5 Accords.
12-28-2005, 06:41 AM
#40
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I think Acura should develop a rear drive V8 platform to compete with the Lexus LS and others, but should not elimate the RL. I personally like everything about the RL, including the V6, and would not consider an LS. I might consider an IS though.
Someone mentioned reducing the base price and making several option packages. That is one thing I have always liked about Acura - just about everything is standard.
I found this article about Acura in Forbes magazine. I think it was written in 2003, but has some pretty good points. http://www.forbes.com/2003/04/01/cz_jf_0401flint.html
Someone mentioned reducing the base price and making several option packages. That is one thing I have always liked about Acura - just about everything is standard.
I found this article about Acura in Forbes magazine. I think it was written in 2003, but has some pretty good points. http://www.forbes.com/2003/04/01/cz_jf_0401flint.html