Rexorg

[QUOTE=Chas2]FWIW, it did not specifically say fire...

QUOTE]

What is the reason for this notice?

Honda Motor Co., Ltd., has decided that a defect relating

to motor vehicle safety exists in certain 2005

year RL vehicles. Prolonged high under-hood

temperatures may cause the power steering hose to

deteriorate prematurely and may cause the hose to crack

and leak power steering oil. Oil leaking onto a hot catalytic

converter will generate smoke and possibly lead to an

under-hood fire.

kenny5

But isn't value one of the main reasons we bought an Acura? I don't think I am wrong in characterizing most Acura buyers as more value than brand oriented.

CL6

They have all the things that are great about Hondas but more so.

jhr3uva90

Yes, but once you get past a base price above $45K or so, you are no longer in a "value luxury" market. People who drive cars in that price range have very different criteria than your average Acura driver, which is why people in that price range generally don't consider the Acura brand at all. The mentality is, "You spent $45K on an Acura? Why? For that money, you could have had a Mercedes, or at least a Lexus!" I'm not saying these people are right to think that way, I'm just saying these are the people who drive the more expensive cars.

Mike_TX

I think the trouble is you can't get much of a Mercedes or Lexus for $45k anymore. What, maybe a stripped C-class, or a tarted-up Camry called an ES350?

"Luxury" class has been elevated to $60,000 and above, and Acura apparently is trying to slot in below that lofty level, while still serving up luxury accoutrements. I'm looking at an LS460, for example (not exactly a Bentley or Maybach), and the price of admission for one of those with my RL's equipment level is $72,000. Granted, it has MORE things than the RL, but the next level down doesn't. E-class can easily get into the high-$50's and an S-class is bumping up against $100k.

So maybe $45-50k IS "value luxury" territory now.

.
.

jhr3uva90

Last time I checked, the median household income in the US was less than $50K, so a $45K car is a luxury to them :-)

You're dealing with reality, which is a good thing. I, on the other hand, am dealing with perception. Once you get past a $45K base price, people generally don't perceive the Acura brand as being comparable to other brands. it is an unfair perception, but it does exist.

kirbyflorida

This hose recall is nothing, simple 1 hour replacement of a hose issue, please do not kill the brand for a small repair like this. Go read about MB issues, or maybe BMW issues on their forums, and see what real problems are. If I recall correctly Acura and Honda or at the top 5 for reliability.

CL6

BMWs and Lexus have steadily increased their prices over the years. If you look how much a 3 Series cost 10 years ago vs. today you'd be shocked. At the auto show the 1 Series BMW was selling for TL prices. Mercedes, on the other hand, has not increased prices very much and for 45k you can buy a fully loaded C Class or almost a completely stripped E Class (who would want that?). Pretty much the same for many years.

Still, with even Hyundais become so reliable and fully featured (ABS, ESP, airbags, V6, etc...) the real distinction between 'value luxury' and regular cars is not so much. For those companies that have not staked out a 'luxury' nameplate they're in for some tough times.

The commercial for the Hyundai Veracruz where the woman gets in one instead of her Lexus RX is not so far from the truth.

kenny5

"Value Luxury" -- sounds like an oxymoron to me It is amazing how some of us can come up with new lingo that seems to fit, but yet seems counter-intuitive at the same time. However, I like the "hybridized" term. I guess it is almost like mid-luxury, as opposed to entry luxury and top luxury, not to mention "obscene luxury", which is reserved for a Bentley or Maybach buyer.

DMZ

I'm not. Take a good look at the combination of available interior space, gas mileage, and sticker price. Is it any wonder why this vehicle isn't selling?

The Honda CRV may not have quite as many techno bells and whistles, but it is clearly a superior value. I see tons more 2007's of them on the road then RDX's. My friend's wife recently got a CRV 2007 leftover and it's terriffic. If I was looking for a small SUV, I'd probably choose the CRV over the RDX.

larrynimmo

don't kid yourself about the ES350...it is not a Camry...no more than the RL is an Accord.

While built on the same overall brand platforms so much is different from beginning to end. If you drive in the best Camry, it is not refined like the ES. Same with Honda. Drive in the best Accord and it wont hold a candle to the RL (I have not experienced the 08 Accord though)

To me based on selling prices, I put the ES & the RL in the same category...call it "value luxury"...or "mid-level luxury" Within its class I consider the RL to be best buy and value. Shame the rest of the country doesn't agree with me

DMZ

You got that right. The owners of the Japanese built ES350 aren't complaining anywhere near as much as owners the '07/8 Camry which is made in Kentucky. In fact, Consumer Reports says Toyota has officially fallen off the throne as the most trouble free brand with all the complaints pouring in about the new Camry, especially the V6 version.

geronimomoe

I'm curious to see as we approach model year 2009. If sales are this bad, especially for the RL, what are they going to do, discount $10K-12K (or more) just to move the cars off the lot?

Rexorg

Eventually all the cars are sold at whatever price the market will bear.

neuronbob

Acura's approach to the problem this year has, according to what I read here, has been to limit RL supply. Make sense. Since people aren't buying, why provide a car that's just going to sit on a dealer's lot for ages?

Is there a current incentive outside of the current lease deal?

I read recently that even sales of the BMW 7 series are down. The large car luxury market has certainly tanked in the last year if that's the case.

CL6

The 7 Series has always been a soft car. I think the styling of the current bodystyle, combined with the iDrive make it even worse. At that range the 7/A8/S Class/LS the market is fairly small anyway I think.

DMZ

Check out Consumer Reports frequency of repair history on the current 7 Series made over the last few years. Electrical issues galore!

geronimomoe

I believe there was a $2000 incentive to dealers starting Nov. 1.

geronimomoe

Agreed, which is why 2006 RLs being sold in Mar/April 07 were being priced in the mid-high 30's, if I recall correctly. That being said, a discount of $10-12K which I mentioned earlier is very possible given the past?

CL6

Yea that too. The Germans push the envelope on the electronics.

DMZ

It might help sales if they gave the RL the same night vision system they put in the Honda Japanese version of the car.

Fabvsix

We all know the Acura RL is a superb vehicle all the way around. The issue remains: USA vs. Japan (Acura RL vs. Honda Legend). Its commonly called a marketing CLUSTER FOOK! That's the issue. Corporate Japanese guys don't give a rats a$$ about the American counter part. They love their Legend in Japan and give it more attention than the model here. Its just fooked up.....till this day I still get folks saying how nice my MB or BMW 7 series is. I have an 04 Acura RL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! They NEVER knew Acura made that car! Go figure........Their marketing sucks in this country. Every ad is about the MDX and or the RDX.....To prove this, they are running the SAME tired Xmas ad from last year........

TSX69

Honda Targets 2008 Gains
DETROIT, Dec 13 - Honda Motor Co expects its U.S. sales to grow by 3 percent or more next year even as the overall market for new vehicles slumps in line with a slowing economy and increased consumer caution, a senior executive said on Thursday.

John Mendel, executive vice president in charge of Honda's U.S. operations, said he expected industry-wide sales to slip to between 15.5 million and 16 million vehicles in the United States next year.

That would mark a decline from an industry total near 16.1 million vehicles this year, the lowest tally since 1998.

"It's going to continue to slow," Mendel told Reuters in an interview. "I just don't know that we're going to get the big whack that doomsayers would predict."

Industry analysts and executives have grown increasingly worried in recent weeks about the risk that a housing downturn combined with a spike in mortgage defaults could undermine U.S. vehicle sales in 2008.

But Mendel said he expected both the vehicle market and the broader U.S. economy would both start to improve in the second half of next year, "short of some cataclysmic shock that no one has predicted."

Honda is projecting its own sales will grow by 3 percent to 4 percent, an extension of its recent performance. "I think next year is probably on target for that," he said.

Honda could even benefit if American consumers turn more cautious because its vehicle line-up leads in overall fuel economy and in maintaining resale values -- key considerations for shoppers who are looking to economize, Mendel said.

"It seems to me that if you look back at our history we've tended to prosper more than the rest when times were tough."

Honda's sales projections would put the Japanese automaker on track to claim more than a 10-percent market share in the United States and make it the second import brand after Toyota Motor Corp to cross that threshold in the world's largest market for cars and light trucks.

But Mendel said Honda was focused only on sustaining the steady growth that has taken it from a share of less than 7 percent of the U.S. market in 2000.

"Honda is an interesting place. I have yet to sit in on a business planning session where market share comes up," said Mendel, who joined Honda in 2004 from Mazda Motor Corp. "Market share is an outcome for us. It's not something we drive for."

ACURA IN 'TRANSITION'

Honda's sales growth this year has come from gains in its mainstay sedans -- the redesigned Accord and the smaller Civic -- combined with momentum that has made its CR-V the best-selling SUV in the U.S. market.

The weak link in the company's line-up has been its Acura luxury brand, where U.S. sales have dropped more than 10 percent through November.

Mendel said upcoming Acura product launches, including a revamped TL sedan, would show Honda's commitment to making Acura fully competitive with the best luxury offerings.

"Starting next fall, you'll start to see a new direction and a new course in terms of Acura," Mendel said. "This year has been kind of a transition year."

A more limited set of changes on Acura's RL due out next year is intended to address dealer complaints the sedan lacks distinctive styling or enough room for back-seat passengers.

"We've addressed both of those in this minor model change, but it won't be until the full model change where you see where we're going with the brand," he said.

Acura has faced some criticism for not offering a more powerful V-8 engine option. Mendel said that decision had cost the brand some "cachet" and could be reviewed in the future.

"We always evaluating -- especially with Acura -- where the brand is going," he said.

dwboston

Addressing "dealer complaints" is what got us the "base" RL. Look how much that did for the car's sales. It sounds like the dealers basically want an Infiniti M to sell. It also looks like the best the MMC RL can hope for is the 3.7L engine from the MDX.

jhr3uva90

I agree how dealer complaints resulted in the base RL that did not help RL sales. Personally, I don't think Acura dealers as a group generally know the luxury car market anyway. That's why Acura will continue to be perceived as one step below Lexus, even though we all know better.

neuronbob

"Could be reviewed in the future"?

Sigh. Oh, well. I agree, the best we can hope for is the J37 engine based on this report.

I guess Honda is thinking longer-term since the CAFE average is being increased. Its fleet is the most-fuel efficient and with more expensive gas, the market for V8 sedans will be limited to people like me with the means to pay for the gas.....I guess they feel that's a demographic not worth serving with their current technology.

CL6

Look if we take a 2007 Mercedes E350 and an E550 (V6 vs. V8) and compare them on www.fueleconomy.gov the difference in mileage is 3mpg for the 2007 model year.

How much extra is that 3mpg going to cost you on a yearly basis? The website says $482.00 per year (or $1.35 per day). Anyone can afford that pretty much.

Honda is philosophically opposed to V8s... it's ideology over sales.

neuronbob

That's exactly what I was trying to say, thank you! You cut to the quick.

static808

I hope they launch a V8 in the MMC RL. It would be a nice add-on and hopefully the beginning of newer, fresher products.

Still wondering if Honda is going to move towards actually outfitting Acura with diesels.

As CL6 said, a V6 or V8 are virtually the same in mpg, because you still need to feed the 300+ horsepower and it just depends on what level of torque you want. The fuel economy is within the engine management. Mercedes at least has 6 speeds and 7 speeds transmissions, hopefully Acura will follow with a 6 speed and get similar results. My

DMZ

And Lexus has an 8 speed transmission on the new LS460.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

The article sounds hopeful that the next TL will not be FWD. However I dont think AWD should be standard either because I truely think that hurt RL sales. I am not saying SH-AWD is bad but I bet a lot of people in Florida and Arizona see AWD and all they see is higher MRSP, more gas, and more service. I think they should do RWD with SHAWD an upgrade.

Next year is going to be a very big year for Acura.

CL6

Yeah but the 8 speed is really too much. Doesn't add anything. You gain a lot going from 5 to 6 and less from 6 to 7... 7 to 8 you gain boasting rights maybe.

I don't know why Honda doesn't go to at least 6 speeds... a VW Jetta has that.

VTEC Racer

Well, the article does give me the impression that there still is some hope with Acura.

On a side note, he mentions that the TL will give a strong hint towards Acura's new direction. Well, what about the new TSX that is supposed to be coming out a few months BEFORE the TL? Is its supposed to just suck or something? Acura's transition should be starting with the TSX, not the TL. IMO, the transition started with the new MDX. It's a good start but they still need to push farther. GO ACURA!!!

TampaRLX-SH

The TSX is a global car and not soley representative of Acura. The TL is an Acura vehicle and Acura can better assert its designs on the TL with less concern for markets outside of North America (Acura' s current base market).

The TSX, as is our RL are global Honda cars rebadged for Acura. Those designs must be tolerant for global market appeal and application.

VTEC Racer

Yeah, I know what you're saying. But, Acura keeps saying that they are serious about competing with the top luxury manufacturers. To achieve this goal, one of the things they need is to have control of their own cars. IMO, this is a must. Otherwise, were just going to continue to have a bunch of RL's. The current TSX sells well because it's a good car with a lot of tech for a cheap price. In the end though, it boils down to the fact that it is just a rebaged Euro Accord. The TSX needs to be know just as the TSX, and not anything else (i.e. Accord). Acura will never be able to compete with the top boys if they continue to give people the opportunity to call their cars rebaged Accords.

To make it simple, if Acura wants to transition, they need to do it with ALL the cars in their lineup, not just half (doing a half-ass job) because that won't take them much farther from where they are today.

TampaRLX-SH

Indeed. As Honda intends to bring Acura into the global market, I would expect there be more differentiation between Acura and Honda vehicles with less badging. I believe the current benchmark date to expand the Acura brand into more global markets is now 2010. Similarly Lexus and Infinity plan to expand more globally, and they too cross brand some models, typically sold as Toyotas and Nissans where the luxury marques have yet to be introduced.

The caveat is that the luxury market is shrinking, and the buyers seem to be polarizing into the traditional luxury marques of MB and BMW. The niche market may only perform where there are volume buyers....North America. The gamble right now for Acura is that they will get some volume from China too.

cai06

Acura desperately needs a full-blown flagship and a super halo sportscar. I think the problem with Acura is not necessarily their lineup, look at Lexus, their cars were/are also rebadges (Toyota Harrier, Altezza, Aristo, Camry, Land Cruiser, Prado) until 2005 and still with the same platforms. Same with Nissan and Infiniti (Skyline, Fuga, Titan) .

This has probably been discussed ad-nauseum: Acura's main problem is in the marketing and strategy department.
Honda has excellent engineering and design know-how to produce high performance cars (remember the McLaren-Honda F1 team, they set a record that nobody, not even Ferrari with Schumacher was/is able to beat) and has one of the best quality and reliability record in the industry to boot. They can easily produce a 3, 5, 7, IS, GS, and LS fighter-killers. The problem is they focus too much in efficiency, value, technology (Honda brand) etc instead of luxury, image, sportiness (Acura brand), not that these are mutually exclusive but I think the latter ones define a true luxury brand or one that is perceived as one (luxury means "excess", "indulgence"). Unfortunately people who buy a luxury brand in the States are more driven by image and keeping up with the Joneses. Few people (like in this forum) really appreciate their cars for what they are, excellent cars; however thats not enough to thrive and survive in the luxury market otherwise they should drop the line alltogether!

krio

Absol. 100% agree.
Another big, big plus of the PREMIUM segment of gerrman cars makers is the PERSONALISATION of a luxury car.
I want red leather, two colors interior, sportier look, dvd, wheels, engine: please, get what you want...
I saw yesterday an A8 6.0L... the interior was simply amazing...
For the Audi Q7 in 2 years Audi offered 18 different kind of wheels!!
An A4, or a BMW3 in Europe have base price 30.000 euro, "naked": with the optionals you can get 45-50.000 euro in a blink of the eyes.
The list of optionals in european Aud, BMW and Merc is HUGELY wider than the american Audis, BMWs and Merces ones... You can compare the site www.audiusa.com with the www.audi.de.
The BMW7 can get something like 80.000 euro of optionals up the base price of the car!!
It's great when you get a car like TL and RL "full optional", but for the TL Type-S for ex., a car that needs personalisation, Honda had to give us the chance to get our personal touch and tuning to the interior or exterior.... Remember the beutiful concept of the TL in Los Angeles 2005? The orange exterior with amazing red seats??
The first good step it seems to me the good list of exterior and interior optionals for the Honda Accord Coupe 2008... the next gen. TSX is not so far away.

CL6

Personalization is way overblown. There are so many options available that for most people you'll never find what you want or, if you do, it's in another state and would be a $1,200 shipping charge. Sure, you get a person every once in a while who wants this exact car, etc... but they are a small minority. Sales people don't want to sell that kind of a car. Just switch them to something in stock or, at worst, something you can trade for.

When I worked at Acura I thought the 'personalization' factor with MB or BMW was important. Now I don't think that. As a matter of fact, the trend at MB is to offer fewer options and to bundle more things together in premium packages.

I do think Acura should offer bolder interior colors.

Trust me, for the customer having so many options is frustrating. Perhaps doing what Scion does and being able to change trim pieces or add lighting would be the way to go.

neuronbob

It's interesting to hear you say this, CL6. It seems Acura can't win--it bundles everything together in a single package, and people complain, and if there are too many options, people complain. The middle ground appears to be bigger bundled packages.

I've been pricing the Caddy CTS, for example (even though what I really want for my next birthday, no. 40, is the 2009 CTS-V and I WILL test-drive it) and they just have too many bloody options with bizarre names like FE3 (the sport suspension package with summer tires) or Y22 or whatever. Folks on the Caddy boards are complaining about how the alphabet soup makes purchasing the car needlessly complicated.