GoHawks

Then who do you blame? $3K for a brake job on anything short of an exotic (i.e. Ferrari, Lambo, etc.) is ridiculous (IMHO).

I guess having grown up doing oil changes, tune-ups (when there was something to really tune) and brake jobs in my uncle's auto repair shop has taught me that anything that costs that much for something that is intended to be consumeable is absolutely insane.

Does the braking performance of the Benz outperform that of a Lexus or Acura THAT much that it justifies that kind of a premium?

For me at least, NO!

GoHawks

Let's face it though, Honda has typically been late to the cylinder wars. I remember when I bought my first brand new car in my adult life, a 1991 Camry V6 LE. Honda for years resisted coming out with a V6, claiming they could get just as much performance from a 4 banger than a V6.

They could have been a considered a serious luxury brand, but their choices prevented them from being one. Toyota/Lexus understood it from the beginning and they've differentiated the two brands so much that most Lexus owners don't even know that Toyota is the mother company.

CL6

On an AMG it can run double that. Mercedes does stuff with their brakes like brake dry assist which pumps the brakes when your wipers are on to keep them dry, the traction control also uses the brakes often as well as other things related to safety and you're paying more for labor because almost all of the mechanics are sent to an expensive school to learn how to fix the cars.

Nobody buys a Benz for inexpensive maintenance but it does not necessarily mean it is a bad brand.

On my CL I've had my rotors warp twice requiring them to be re-turned and new pads... that stuff happened out of warranty and I have to pay for it and it wasn't cheap either.

GoHawks

I would put AMG in the same class as an exotic, and I understand that people don't buy a Benz for cheap labor. My point is that a Benz would be a car that is within my means, although maybe not an S class (I'm talking about buying, not leasing), and if I knew that a brake job would cost me $3K, I would think twice about the purchase.

Go figure as I choked when I was quoted $700 for a 4-wheel brake job on my '01 TL. So what did I do? I bought the RL.

Then again, I had been considering a purchase.

I guess I don't understand a feature that pumps my brakes to keep them dry, when I've been driving for years through driving rainstorms and have never had to worry about my brakes getting wet. Having a feature that does that, which would exponentially drive up my maintenance costs to that level just doesn't make sense to me.

Then again I guess it's all relative. I'm sure that there are people out there that don't see the value of adaptive headlights or keyless entry door handles that become very expensive to fix, but that's the difference. It becomes expensive as a repair, and I can mitigate that with an extended warranty.

It's just that brake jobs are normal wear and tear, and $3K just seems insane to me.

Even when you factor in training and certification.

GoHawks

I also didn't imply that it was a bad brand. I just would think twice about ever purchasing one.

CL6

I sell MB but the cost of ownership keeps me away too! That and no stick shifts. The brake drying feature is for safety... something MB is very concerned with and the Germans over-engineer everything anyway. I'm sure this keeps many people away from the brand but I can honestly say that in 18 months I've only had a handful of people asking about upkeep costs... they know what it is before they walk through that door.

I think that if Acura takes a chance, widens their line-up, throws a V8 into the RL, puts some RWD cars out there and comes up with some crazy AMG-style cars (and make them look like that concept RL) instead of A-SPEC BS and invests money into leasing they could easily surpass Lexus. It is just so sad for me to know that in 2006 Acura sold, for the first time, 200,000+ cars and now they're on track to sell maybe 150,000. I'm upset they didn't go all the way with the RL... I car I love, and dropped the CL.

When I started with MB their navigation sucked but now it's as good as what's on the RL/TL and I just see Acura's advantages as eroded. I did not want to leave the brand but loyalty doesn't pay the bills.

3k would be a full brake job... not just pads, BTW.

I sat in on a few meetings with Honda execs from Japan on A-SPEC and the guys in America were all bitching that Honda would not give them the resources to make A-SPEC into M from BMW or AMG from Mercedes or F from Lexus. So bean counting is what's keeping that company from truly shining... IMO.

And the two companies I respect most from an engineering/safety perspective are Honda and Mercedes-Benz so it's not like I'm not a fan to begin with.

GoHawks

As is evident in my earlier post further up on this page, I agree with you in that Honda has always been conservative. That's unfortunate as it has kept Acura from being perceived as a luxury marque.

Having said that, I don't always buy into the branding. When introduced, the RL was a steal for what it offered. Today the competition has caught up and the RL is lame duck (it was always a bit gimpy though).

We'll see if they step up with the next gen RL, but somehow I have the feeling that Honda will use the latest gas prices as another excuse for not taking the plunge. Additionally, given the recent market meltdown, causing manufacturers to shy away from leases, I suspect it will be little incentive for Acura to offer aggressive leasing.

I have never been a big fan of leasing, but my company has gone away from company cars and provides me with a generous car allowance. If I could keep my miles under the cap (I generally average 17K a year), I might consider renting a car for a couple of years.

I was never a big fan of the Benz in the past, but I have to admit that they new styling trend strikes a chord with me, but the $3K brake jobs may continue to keep me away.

GoHawks

Looks like the Benz E-Class didn't fare well either in the latest CU report. It was ranked among the least reliable luxury cars.

other Bavarian models that didn't fare well.

Benz M-Class
BMW X-5
Audi Q7
Porsche Cayenne
Benz GL Class

lumpulus

I'm gonna have to disagree with this....I don't think they have the slightest idea what the projected costs would be, nor do they care. I think that the C class buyers just want their neighbors to see that they've "made it", and the S Class buyers light their Cigars with $100 bills anyway, so they couldn't care less if you charged them $5k for a brake job.

janghs80

I'd rather have turbo 3.7l v6 engine or supercharged 3.7l v6 engine.
If porsche can make more than 350+ hp with v6 engine, Honda can do that also. They don't need to produce v8 I think.

ssim3

For a flagship sedan you dont want a peaky turbo you want low end torque with a smooth power delivery.

TampaRLX-SH

I would agree. And I think the smooth refinement of the RL is evident, even if the torque, power or cylinders do not compete well for a flagship.

As Honda has been so resistant to cylinders this is a watershed step to recognize & respond to market demands. And though Honda has had 8 cylinder racing engines for decades, it has been a fundemental choice not to pursue V8s in passenger vehicles. But a luxury / premium marque and truck / utility vehicles have also been Honda watersheds based on market demands and outside the core Honda model.

Still I espect Honda's approach to apply efficent, clean and reliable attritubutes when entering these markets. Although often late to market, I am usually impressed with what they do present.

Turbocharging & Supercharging have also been technologies that Honda claims not to be in their philosophy. I do not know for certain, but perhaps there is difficulty harmonizing these technologies with VTEC, the hallmark of Honda engines? Just a niave speculation.

But as part of the Honda strategy, I expect a V8 will be the most power Honda can produce WHILE maintaining reasonable efficiency, emmisions and reliability. The current claim is they will bring to markey a calss leading V8. I look forward to see what they introduce to the V8 market.

RL06tech

Great!! A v8!!! Now that its ready, they can shelve it since V8's might as well have Herpes for the next few years. Back to the drawing board!!!! Sorry too late. I really wonder if Acura will survive this economic cycle. Honda surely will, however,I wouldn't be surprised if Acura is a casualty. The market for luxury cars will go back to the 80's a couple major manufacturing brands an a smattering of little specialty builders. The next five years or so will see the auto industry contract at best by 25%. The big three will fail unless the government bails them out. Honda and toyota will be the only "US" car manufacturers in the US and they will be forced to make bread and butter cars. Sorry folks but as in the 70's bigger, badder and faster is over for the foreseeable future. Last time it took 20 years to get back to real "hot" cars. If it takes 20 years this time the IC engine will be obsolete and we will raving about amps instead of HP.

DoctorTuna

Pessimism or realism?? Or both?? You paint a bleak picture which certainly has merit in the current economic climate. What I think we're really going to see change though is the unchecked credit industry, it is a cancer to this country. Buy now, pay later... or not pay at all. Our government does it very well. Fortunately, there are some of us that still pay cash for most things in life, live within our means, and actually have a net worth. There is still a great deal of wealth in this country and I think the luxury car market will be around for a long time to come, albeit with contracted sales and less profit. We won't see mainstream alternative fuel engines until there is a true oil crisis. I read today that with falling oil prices and average gasoline at ~$2.60 a gallon, down from a record $4.00, that OPEC is going to restrict supply by 1.5 million barrels per day. The oil is there, they just play with the supply to suit their fancy. I would love to see alternative vehicles, but as long as there's oil, the infrastructure just won't be built.

But getting back on topic, the V8 again is not the enemy. It will provide the exact same mileage that we're accustomed to out of most of our V6 engines, but it will provide greater torque and every day driving performance. Those who want an Acura V8 can actually get one if they choose, if not, they can choose something else. It's just an option and not mandatory. I bet you wouldn't find one S, 7, or LS owner who would trade their V8 for a V6, yet they keep on selling. We all need to be more financially responsible as a country, and maybe we'll be able to continue to enjoy the indulges life has to offer. For me, one of those would be an Acura V8, but I guess I'm an optimist.

GoHawks

IMHO I feel that the oil speculation (and greed behind it) accelerated this mess that we're in. While the real estate bubble burst quite some time ago, the oil prices from this summer was like (pardon the expression) fuel on a fire.

While there are people who lease vehicles for responsible reasons, there are a great many out there who leased their hi-lux SUVs so that they could afford the monthly payments. When it begain to cost $120 to fill up the Navigator/Hummer/Denali, people quickly began dumping them.

People couldn't afford to pay their bills, or stopped making purchases because of the higher cost of energy.

It began a domino effect. Banks/leasing companies were getting killed because of the diminished residual value.

The Detroit 3 who was hoping for a turnaround by this time. They had negotiated better UAW contracts and were going to begin hiring lower waged employees. Well due to their short-sightedness, they had really no product beyond their high margin SUVs, so when people abandoned the SUV, they had nothing else to sell the public. As the recent CU Report indicates, aside from some glimmers of hope coming from Ford, there really isn't much to cheer about from the US auto companies.

I read an article the other day spculating that the Big 3 might have been premature to dump the high margin SUVs now that the oil has come down. You can say it now, but it becomes a chicken/egg debate.

The economy is so bad now that even if you wanted to buy a car today, you'd be hard pressed to get a good loan. The funny thing is that everyone keeps saying you need credit in to 700s (like that is a suprise). I always maintained a credit rating in the upper 700s so it's nothing new to me, but apparantly not for the rest of the public.

As for me, our Land Cruiser has 91K miles. This is the time where I would think about trading it in. It's running strong, and with the early electronic gremlins addressed, I just bought a new set of tires for it, I'm going to sink some money into regular maintenance (i.e timing belt, etc.) and drive it for a while longer.

It's cheaper than taking on car payments.

RL06tech

I must confess its pessimistic but unfortunately I think its pretty darned close to reality. Though, as usual, we mostly focus on ourselves (US), if you think things are bad here just look elsewhere. The reason the europeans are being so eager for a fix is that the euro system market is close to collapse as are the asian markets, essentially all major economists and central bank chiefs in the world are in agreement that we are only in the beggining of what is promising to be not only a protracted but also a deep recesion. I wish I could find a silver lining but there is none.

CL6

I've not had problems getting people loans to buys cars unless their credit was in the 400s and I've had a few challenging customers in the past 6 weeks. It is tougher to get a loan but basically that means the basics of loaning money to people who can re-pay it is back in force and that's the way it should be.

I don't think Acura is going to go belly up... that wouldn't happen. I think Acura may see their sales contract even more as the RDX and MDX age.

The truth is the groundwork should have been set down years ago (like in 04 when the new TL/RL/TSX came out) and because it wasn't Acura will suffer.

GoHawks

Outside of a financial hardship like a job loss, I just don't get a credit score in the 400s. I take it back, I guess I do know, but I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around that.

Last year when I took my new job, I was carrying two large mortgages as I was waiting for my company to buy out my old house. That along with some moving expenses my credit dipped in the 720/730 range because of the debt I was carrying and I was concerned.

The house has since been sold and the mortgage is off my credit along with a few other items, and I believe it's back up to where it's historically been.

400s just seems unfathomable to me, and I question if anyone who has a credit score that low should be buying a Benz.

CL6

We sell off brands, too. I have seen worse than 400. Somebody with a 650 score can actually get a better rate than somebody with an 800 score depending upon what's going on with their credit.

DoctorTuna

This is exactly what I'm talking about, the V8 engine isn't the problem, its the financially irresponsible person trying to buy it....

neuronbob

Keep it on topic, please. We're talking V8s in the RL here.

DoctorTuna

I thought that was what we were talking about. We're exploring the good the bad and the ugly of the V8 for an Acura using other brands as the reference, we don't have a reference with Acura.... yet.

wstr75

I'm with RL06Tech on this one. I don't care what's under the hood cylinder-wise so long as:
1) The power is there when needed.
2) The car is smooth and tractable
3) It does not cost an arm and a leg to keep fueled or to maintain.

Supercharged, turbo, cylinder control, split-cycle engine, compression ignition, diesel, electric/combustion hybrid, whatever is fine with me so long as it is a GREAT car for the money. I am hoping Honda/Acura will roll out a new, great and generation-shaping new RL or RL replacement, i.e. surprise us much like the NSX and, to a lesser extent, original Legend broke new automotive ground. I think Honda has the technology what with all the racing, engine technologies and hybrid car production experience they have accumulated.

Here is hoping for a transformative new luxury car.
wstr75

TampaRLX-SH

Let's hope so. But I think Honda tried to transform what a luxury car should be with the RL / LEGEND, and the market did not bite. Instead, it was criticized for lack of V8, drive configuration and size.

All of the rumors are hinting that Honda is bowing to those market expectations with the next gen RL, which does not sound like an attempt to transform the market definition of what a luxury car should be.

Still, I have high expectations of what Honda would deliver with those benchmarks in mind. I am very confident that the V8 from Honda will be wel thought out, tried and true and possibly a class leader. But since Honda's philosophy includes efficiecy and enviromental impact, the resultant V8 may not be percieved as a class leader, as it may not be subjected to the market's demand for most power or most torque. When weighed in with efficiency and emissions the honda V8 may not produce the numbers the market expects.

I expect I will be impressed with the next Gen RL in engine, drivetrain, features and performance. Where I remain highly sceptical, and equally anticipatory is with the skin it will be wrapped in.

neuronbob

100%. PLEASE don't fuglify the RL, Acura! If you're gonna use the beak, at least integrate it better.

TampaRLX-SH

If you go to GOOGLE Images and SEARCH on the phrase 'ugly beak', the 4th image in the response is the 2009 Acura TL.

DoctorTuna

OK, I'm going to drift off topic here for just a second but I just wanted to make a general comment about Acurazine specifically as I continue to peruse this thread which has become thought provoking and a very cordial exchange of ideas. In comparison to the G37 forum which I have become accustomed to frequent, this forum has been the most enjoyable and intellectual of any. It's threads like these that keeps me coming back!! Kudos to all.

psheu

100%. I really think there is some kinda conspiracy on the new Acura line of fugly beak. I think someone got paid from the rival companies or spies from the rival company that created the fugly beak to drive the customers away. regardless of how good the car really perform. The consumer is looking for a total package. fugly good performer just doesn't cut it now a day . it's like having an ugly funny girl/dude... what are you gonna say to her/him?.... na, na... baby.... cover your face and just tell me some joke?

TampaRLX-SH

TOV is reporting the diesel intended for the TSX is on hold or may be cancelled as the automatic version is not meeting US emission requirements. The manual version of the engine, does meet emission requirements, but apparently a manual only version of the TSX would be too small a market to justify the US production of the diesel in the TSX?

Then they comment that a V6 version of the TSX may come online. Does this not create more redundancey and overlap between Acura models?

If there is no V8 RL, the TSX will steal TL sales, the SHAWD TL will all but kill the RL.

These model shifts are concerning me as to Acura's success. There is enough challenge to get past the fugly factor.

TSX69

Honda Planning v8 but Not Until 2015

November 26, 2008

By Peter Nunn

Maybe dreams do come true, after all. Americans who have long yearned for Honda to develop a production-car V8 engine may finally be getting their wish -- if recent comments made by Honda president Takeo Fukui are any guide.

In a recent media interview, Fukui was quoted as saying that Honda was now planning to strengthen the Acura brand with a production V8.

Why? Because the 3.7-liter V6 currently installed in the newly face-lifted RL, the range-topper for Honda's upscale Acura sales channel -- wasn't "sufficient" to compete with other premium brands, he said.

Just don't take it to mean a Honda V8 is around the corner.

Fukui seemed to be acknowledging what owners, media and dealers have been saying for years: that in a premium-market shoot-out with Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Lexus and others, Acura has long been hampered by sticking resolutely to a V6 for its flagship RL -- when eight-cylinder engines have long been deemed the minimum price of admission.

Well-placed Honda insiders, though, recommend a note of caution: There is no V8 in the immediate product-development pipeline, they insist, contradicting excited reports that Acura's first V8 would bow "within 18 months."

President Fukui, they say, was talking generally, more into the future with the V8, rather than about the near term. Indeed, the next redesign for the Acura RL, due around 2010 or 2011 will stick with a V6, according to a source familiar with the program, so it's the generation after that -- scheduled for around 2015 -- that will get the V8.

And something more.

History of Contrarianism

When it comes to engines, Honda may well be one of the world's leading-edge developers, but the company often has had a unique take on what it decides to serve up.

On one hand, American Honda was not intellectually opposed to developing a full-blooded, 3.5-liter V8, generating more than 650 horsepower, for the Indy Racing League (an engine so dominant it now powers every car in the series).

And next year, Acura also will pull covers on what's sure to be a superlative, clean-sheet V10 with rumored 5-liter capacity for the long-awaited replacement for Acura's NSX supercar.

With all this experience, Honda could easily design and build a world-beating V8, but many of the company's key engineers are ideologically against it, believing a V8 for production models to be too big, too heavy, and too wasteful -- simply unnecessary alongside their lighter, power-dense and more-economical V6s.

Honda iCTDI 2.2-liter diesel engine.jpgAmericans have seen this purist ideology in action before. Remember the first four-cylinder Odyssey minivan from the mid-'90s? Honda's logic was that four cylinders were "enough." The market thought otherwise -- and eventually Honda caved in. The same logic applies to the V8 that's yet to appear in the Ridgeline truck.

As Honda engineers see it, four cylinders are lighter, simpler, more efficient, more technologically ideal and better for economy. Never mind what the customer wants.

And given the frenetic surge in gas prices this year and economic turmoil, Honda would seem to have got that particular call about right.

A V8 -- If It Must Be

Toyota and Nissan have the market positioning and history to do V8s, but for Honda/Acura, it's a much tougher call. Honda, it is known, quietly developed a one-off, rear-wheel-drive Legend/RL with a V8 sometime back in the early 2000s, but the program ended up being axed.

First, because the V8 didn't offer that much of an advantage over Honda's existing V6, or so word has it.

Second, Honda reputedly looked at the sales numbers for Acura's main rivals, Lexus and Infiniti, and pondered if its car could do better in the same dogfight.

And third, emulating the others and being last to the party is not the Honda way.

So the company reconfigured the Legend/RL to be more of a European Audi-type competitor with strong technical emphasis on all-wheel drive. On paper, the Legend/Acura RL has plenty going for it but without the cachet of a V8 for the American market (and diesel in Europe), the car has always been a slow burn.

Still, engineers at Honda R&D stubbornly refused to countenance the V8 option. But now, recent comments by CEO Fukui finally indicate a change of tack.

The new V8, he said, would be completely different from conventional practice and have excellent fuel economy. Given Honda's stellar track record when it does commit to a new engine, the market surely would not expect anything less.

Equally Big News -- A New Rear-Drive Acura Lineup

The V8 is being readied for an all-new Acura flagship, an insider source says, adding that behind the scenes, Honda has secretly laid down the plans for a completely fresh range of cars -- using all-new, rear-drive architecture -- specifically to target the BMW 3, 5 and 7 Series.

The program reportedly still is at the basic planning stage. But following Honda's current new-model development schedule, the V8 would debut in an Acura flagship sedan targeted at the 7 Series and debuting in 2015.

One hurdle for Honda would seem to be the European Union, where carbon-dioxide regulations are rapidly reshaping demand for big luxury sedans.

As of today, Honda Europe has no interest in a V8. "Absolutely no plans to bring a V8 to Europe," a spokesman commented. "There would be no market for such a power unit in the current climate."

Still, Honda's Fukui, no stranger to bold pronouncements, nonetheless has set the V8 ball in motion. It's surely the engine Acura needs to cut it at the head table.

PHOTOS (courtesy Honda Motor Co. Ltd.):

1. Current Acura flagship, the RL, is a technical showcase but only a mild presence in the market, some believe, because it lacks V8 power.

2. Honda long was philosophically against diesel combustion, but eventually relented, tasking one of its most diesel-averse engineers with development of the company's first-ever diesel.

GoHawks

I am extremely saitisfied with my "technical showcase", even though most of the market doesn't recognize it as such. I finally got a chance to wash it today after enduring weeks of sloppy Michigan weather and I feell in love with it all over again.

I could care less if people view it as a competitor to a Lexus or a BMW. If that's what I cared about, I would have bought one of those (and I REALLY looked at a Lexus GS).

VTEC Racer

Considering that this "information" is being reported by only a couple websites, and both those websites having a respectability and credibility rating no better than Edmunds, I'm calling BS.

sadlerau

Unfortunately for us that want a V8, Peter Nunn is a well respected motoring journalist who lives in Japan. He has been reporting on the Japanese scene for ages.

On the positive side, it may be true of Japan, but maybe the Acura boys will finally gain their independance and have their own way. Lord knows they are doing it with their styling!

neuronbob

AAAAAAAAAAAAAGH. What. The Fsck. 2015? By then, It'll be too late. The market is moving toward hybrids, smaller cars, and maybe diesels, and will continue to.

Acura will continue to be taken as a lightweight in the luxury world with this news.

The only way they can redeem themselves as a "Tier 1" luxury company now is to market themselves as an environmentally friendly luxury car company that offers luxury without a huge carbon footprint.....which is how Honda markets itself. That could gain some sales as people are more environmentally conscious nowadays. Of course, Acura doesn't know how to market itself or understand what it stands for, so it'll never happen.