CL6

To think that poor little Honda cannot run ads for their products is silly. The RDX is out - where are the ads?? It takes money to make money and Honda always makes a profit. Toyota has more cash than anybody but that is no reason to say that Honda cannot spend proportionally the same amount to advertise. Advertising is how you build the brand.

Did you know that several years ago Toyota loaned all these Priuses to actors for the Oscars. Dozens of these cars showed up on national tv for free advertising. Honda was asked first but turned them down. This is the stupid mentality that keeps Acura the 'bargin' luxury brand.

mrdeeno

I think that Acura should employ more "brand" ads, advertising all their cars rather than just model by model. This will spread the advertising costs over several models as well as show off the brand name rather than a model.

concerning service at the dealerships, I think Acura corporate's problem is that the TL's are selling well, so corporate thinks that there's no problem with the dealerships. if people buy TL's from the dealership, there's nothing wrong with the dealership!

I think it's the right move to piss people who are used to "value" pricing Acuras...such as the TL-S's estimated $39k price. it may be perceived as too expensive for a TL by the people used to regular TL prices, but even if they don't sell that many because it's too expensive, when they next TL starts at around $39k, people won't be so shocked anymore (given that the product lives up to expectations).

The only reason for resistance that I can see is that Honda is so used to Acura making money off of volume. When they raise prices, they wont' be breaking sales records every month or increasing profit margins, which is what "business" people like to see. But is this "cost" worth it in the short term for a better image and potentially larger profits and sales in the long term? it's the guys in control that make the call.

jhr3uva90

CL6 gave us an EXCELLENT example of product placement! When Toyota loaned Prius cars to actors for the Oscars, that was product placement, not advertising, and it was far more effective. Also, putting Lexuses on TV shows are an effective means of promoting the product. Honda/Acura needs to take similar action. It is cheaper than TV advertising and tends to be more effective. People are reaching a point where they are either tuning out TV ads mentally or literally with Tivo-like devices. Sure, have some TV commercials, but don't rely on them exclusively.

Do you know how Cadillac saved its bacon? They made the Escalade and the hip hop community started putting them in videos and professional athletes (many of whom are arguably part of the same community) started driving them in public. That did more for the Escalade's image, and Cadillac's than any ad.

It seems to me that Acura is basically a marketing company (they don't have their engineers, they don't have their own manufacturing, and they won't have their own industrial designer until 2008). But they don't seem to be all that innovative at marketing. The TL has been a success since 1999 and the MDX since 2001, but they have yet to have "upscale" success. That's really a shame, since they have some impressive cars.

However, I do have hope for Acura going upscale. Acura executives have admitted that the car more cross-shopped with the TL is the Honda Accord, and they are going to change that situation. I guess we will just have to see what they do.

jhr3uva90

Oh, and one more thing: it isn't that Honda is "poor," it's just that I don't think Acura is their priority. Acura barely gets any mention in Honda literature, particularly their annual reports. Sure, they want to bring the brand name to Japan in 2008, but I think they are going to half-ass it. I think it is merely a response to Toyota finally bringing the Lexus brand to Japan.

johnnykuz

This discussion is rather ironic in that it was Acura who "invented" this market segment in 1986 with the introduction of the original Legend. Yet Lexus & Infiniti have greater market traction. I believe that 1) Acura doesn't market strongly enough, & 2)The RL really needs to have a V8 to compete in the higher end of the market.

I love the RL (have a 2004 TL myself) but I don't think it's powerful enough to compete in this segment. $50K car buyers want lots of power & sophistication. I think the RL is a great car for $40K but $50K is just too much. the RL needs to have about 330HP to attract buyer's attention in that $50K range.

I think that Honda's focus on efficiency (small displacement engines with innovative technology) is blinding them to market place needs.

For $40K, I'll own an RL in a heartbeat, and may well soon once I sell my TL.

JK

jhr3uva90

What power does the other cars have that the RL lacks? All the V8s I know of cost more than the RL with even remotely similar features.

Also, it is usually irrelevant who pioneers the business. Larger companies usually come in later to capitalize on what the pioneer did.

ISM Gray

Well this problem is being addressed, whichever side you wish to take, whether it be the sales staff, the dealers or the car. It is being handled.

We are getting rid of the RSX for a reason. Acura wishes to continue its distinction from Honda. Some believe that our volume will go down and its probably true but when you take the RSX buyer out of the equation you get rid of a lot of people that should be buying Hondas.

My dealership sells lots of RLs but we are a very high volume dealer. I sell maybe one or two of these cars a month. however I am the Internet Sales Manager so I sell more new cars than most.

I don't believe that it is the car, the dealerships, or the sales people. I believe that it is more about the fact that the RL is undermarketed to the wrong people. 55 year olds don't want one because its too sporty, 30 year olds don't want to pay $50,000.00 for a bunch of things they won't use. The RL is not intended to be a high volume unit anyway. Most of my RL customers have been cash buyers. Which tells me that they appeal to a more affluent market that doesn't hesitate to stroke out a check for 50k.

Take the RSX away and you are looking at the opportunity to reach out to a lot more of those buyers. Why do you think we are have introduced the RDX which competes against the X3. That is one of our biggest problems as well. The look how cheap they are approach to these cars makes it harder to hold gross profit.

They are also introducing more affordable versions of the RL in the near future. There will be a version without navigation which will save consumers some money, it will also be missing a few other things, not quite sure how it will turn out.

Enough with the novel. I hope you all understand what im trying to say.

I

jhr3uva90

MR. Gray, you're my hero!

CL6

ISM, you know that the RL is now sold from the bottom up. Well, $3,000 below the bottom and maybe down from there. Any car can be sold but these cars are now selling for an amazing $9,000.00 off of sticker! If you go into the holdback you can sell for $10,500.00 off of sticker. Even the TLs are not that far in the hole although they are getting there in terms of selling price discount. My point is that if I was able to go that far down I'd be moving many RLs per month. But I wonder what the image of this car is to the customers.

jhr3uva90

Here's the image to the customers: most potential customers have no idea that you can get an RL for $42K or less. Instead, they just see the MSRP and think, "Damn, this car is expensive!" and go buy a TL. Meanwhile, Mercedes fans continue to drive Mercedes exclusively, BMW fans don't even contemplate something other than a BMW, and Lexus fans think they are getting a lot of status for their overpriced Toyotas.

ISM Gray

I've never sold an RL to someone who didn't really want one. The problem is we accomodate to the kind of buyer that wants to pay 40,500.00 for one. I know they love the car. The buyer we market to is very intelligent, very very intelligent. They research every little in and out of this car, including the price and what we pay for them. They research non stop. Almost every single one of my customers knows what invoice is and unfortunately I have a dealership across town that likes to mess with me. So I sell lots of cars behind invoice, its unfortunate but its the only thing I can do to maintain business.

CL6

Well you spend more than 10 minutes online you will see. Edmunds.com or CarsDirect.com.

You do get the Lexus customers right though.

dwboston

The RDX ad campaign must have just started today. I've seen RDX ads about 10 times tonight during the Red Sox game on NESN. Typical Acura ads touting the tech in the car - SH-AWD, NavTraffic, etc.

lflorack

Although I'm currently 57, I bought one worrying that it wasn't sporty enough I came from an '03 TL-S and an '04 TL to buy my '05 RL. My situation is probably not standard however, so I agree with you that many (most?) people around my age will want something less sporty. So who IS the RL suppossedly marketed to?

Let me also say that the rest of your infromation was very interesting and enlightening. Thanks!

PS: I didn't pay cash for mine.

ISM Gray

I understand, my father is 65 and he realy wants one. But he isn't the average 65 year old. He is still very active and doesn't really look or act 65. I don't understand why Lexus holds such prestige either. All of their cars are boring. When I say all I really mean every single model they make. I drove the new IS 350. Loved it! until I turned off the traction control, tried to slide it around a corner and the traction control turned itself back on!!!!!

I was infuriated. What is the point of a rear wheel drive sedan with over 300 hp if you aren't allowed to liberate the rear end every now and then.

Have any of you take an RL down an off ramp? maybe 30 or 40 mph faster than recommended by the little yellow sign?

Thats why the RL appeals to me.

lflorack

Yes I have -- regularily!

jhr3uva90

I think that's something our TL brethren don't quite understand. Have you ever taken the RL on a CURVY off ramp 30 or 40 mph faster than the recommended speed? Now that's fun!

GoHawks

Lexus makes some damn fine cars. For me it was between the Lexus GS 300 AWD (I couldn't swing the 430) and the RL. THe RL won because of the better price, slightly better perfomance, and mostly because I loved the interior of the RL much more. That said I saw a black/black GS430 on the dealer lot that was absolutely wicked.

ISM Gray

they look good but even Car and Driver Say The pursuit of everything except passion...Just like the camry! The anti sport sedan.

ISM Gray

See thats it...You did what the RL buyer is supposed to do. None of my RL customers are doing that. They are usually underqualified and either not willing to pay the price we list them for, they did too much research and no more about the car than I do, or they are coming out of a cadillac and dont know anything except they bought the biggest damn acura they could because they have always bought the biggest cars ever.

I applaud you for comparing. I wish more people did, because yes hands down an Acura is more exciting to drive, comes with more features, and is probably the least expensive to operate of any luxury car on the market. IT all makes sense.

My customers are not concerned about those factors, they don't care. All they care about is that I'm not charging them one RED cent of profit because profit is evil!

Well I will come to their businesses and not pay them for their goods and services someday..

Ive had a bad day.

CL6

I took the VSA off on an RL and took an on-ramp too fast and the rear end popped right out but it wasn't an entirely pleasant experience. I have a CL which is not an NSX but I can take that ramp faster in that car than in an RL.

ISM - I hope you have a good pay plan. You are SOOO right about the RL.

Ibn Rushd

Honda/Acura has already stated that the next engine to go into their 2009/2010 Acura RL, Acura MDX, Honda Ridgeline and perhaps the Honda Pilot, will be a toned down version of the V10 powering the Acura NSX. It'll be a V8. No specs on it, however it should have a cylinder diactivation system, similar to that of the Honda Odyssey.


My uncle chose the Acura RL-Aspec over the GS300 AWD, Infiniti M35x, BMW M5 (He didn't like the salesman...so he walked out of BMW) as well as the 535xi i believe, the E500 and S550. I have no idea what he was thinking and where his mix was going..but hey, he liked the RL the best. He's switching up his Odyssey for an MDX now. Should look nice side by side!

Ken1997TL

Sounds like the V-10 will be a 90 degree design

CL6

V8? Provide the link where there is any information about that. I haven't seen/read/heard anything about that.

The 07 MDX launches in October and I'm 99.99% sure it is not a 'toned down V10.'

Precision Crafted

I was thinking the same thing. The last I read, Honda was backing off of the V8 route. But this too is the same company that said that they were not going the Type S route with the TL. Also the same company that said a performance hybrid was coming soon (comment was made last year).

The good/ bad thing about Acura is that they don't tell you anything and what they do tell is so small that it causes all of us to wonder what is going on.

I've read where the engine for the MDX would be either a 3.5 (revised version of the J35A) or something larger up to 3.8 liters.

On a side note you are so correct. I recently looked at a BMW and the lease rate is way better. I could put less mony down and have a better monthly payment then I could in an RL. As a side note the 5 with X-Drive is a dog to drive and not nearly as "lite" on it's feet as the RL.

What I think (not an expert here) is that the RL and TL should share a platform along with a new coupe. The TSX and the Accord can continue to be kissing cousins and the lite truck platform is fine the way it is.

With the RL and TL being based off of each other then the RL could be the longest and widest of the two as well as the tallest. Also, while I understand why Acura has a one size fits all mentality, when pricing out a 5 Series it was nice to not get somethings I could care less about while adding the things I would use. Acura should consider some FACTORY options besides what they are doing (dealers charge way too much).

CL6

The RL rides on its own unique platform (same was true on the NSX). While basing the RL/TL on the same platform when those vehicles are completely redesigned makes sense that would require Japan/US to work together on this one. I think it is a good idea in theory.

I have heard rumors of a 3.8 litre V6 for the MDX, too. Something like this seems likely.

ISM Gray

thats what I heard from my DM was 3.8

mrdeeno

the RL, TL, TSX, and Accord ARE currently based on the same platform (Global Midsize Platform).

CL6

I believe you are wrong. The RL has the ACE body structure while the TL, TSX, and Accord do not. Re-check your sources.

mrdeeno

No, you are wrong...you should check YOUR sources.

the RL may have ACE "body" structure, but it still has a chassis based on the global midsize platform...same as the TL, TSX, and Accord.

another example...Odyssey is a FWD minivan built on Honda's global light-truck platform and also has ACE "body" structure. the Pilot and Ridgeline are ALSO built on the global-light truck platform...but neither has ACE "body" structure.

Mike_TX

Just to clear up one misconception ... I had an '06 Infiniti M45, with Nav, backup camera, Bluetooth, power everything, air-conditioned seats, voice recognition, and on and on. The list price was $52,300. The RL, excluding the Tech Pkg version, lists for roughly $50,000.

I don't see that as a "huge difference" in price, and the M has a 325hp V-8 along with a raft of cool techie featues like the RL.

So I don't know why you guys keep saying the M45 is 'way more expensive than the RL. True, you can get an RL discounted all to hell, but the sticker shock is the same for both brands and the Infiniti offers a lot more under the hood!

mrdeeno

i think that's a huge contributor to the problem...

the MSRP turns off many potential customers who research on the internet that never make it through the door at an Acura dealership...

if acura MSRP'd this car at $45k, they'd get a LOT more people shopping for this car, not to mention people who end up purchasing it. Even if they sell at $42k, I'm sure they're making a small profit (considering the RL IS based on a common platform with other Hondas and Acuras, so it saves R&D/manufacturing/tooling costs)...so it just seems that Acura overestimated how the market would value the RL. But unfortunately they can't just lower the MSRP...that would be a major loss of face as well as pissing off early buyers who paid close to MSRP.

Ken1997TL

The RL, TL and Accord all share the same platform. The RL simply has an ACE front end. The SH-AWD program was all done using a modified Accord.

As for the V-8, its currently being tested in Ridgeline test mules. It will be around 4.2 liters and have VCM.

CL6

I stand corrected; thank you. The information I was provided was bad:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...40/ai_n7070864

"Based on the same global midsize sedan platform as the Honda Accord and Acura TSX and TL, the new RL represents vast improvements in steering, ride and handling."

mrdeeno

understandable...considering that during the RL intro, somone asked if the RL was based on the same platform as the Accord. Dick colliver answered that it's based on a separate platform.

i'm sure it's a marketing thing...they don't want people who are unfamiliar with platforms/chassis to think a $50k car is built on the same platform as an accord.

jhr3uva90

It might help the general public if someone would explain the concept of a "platform." To them. Most folks either don't know what a platform is, or they assume "platform" means "basically the same car." In actuality, there is quite a bit of flexibility within the platform to make a variety of cars. The biggest limitations are minimum overal size of the car, maximum overall size of the car, drivetrain configuration (can't put RWD on a FWD platform), and types of engines.

Wikipedia has an effective overall definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_platform

mrdeeno

^^ I think the problem is the general public doesn't even care what platform really means and are happy with their preconcieved notion of "badge engineering".

Rexorg

Having owned a '04 TL and now leasing a '06 RL, I can honestly say that the RL is a great car at $40, but I would not pay $50 for one. The TL is a super car for $35K and would have both another if it had the Bose 5.1 surround.

Acura made the RL too small, both in size and power. While I love all the high tech stuff, I could do without SH-AWD and some of the other gadgets. That said, I am going to love every day of the three years I lease the RL, until I can buy a RDX!!!

Precision Crafted

Your right in that the general public could care less or just don't know. If someone didn't mention that the Accord and TL share a similar floor plan, suspension connection points, etc then they would assume that they were distinct all the way around.

Yet my point is that we have all talked about what the RL is lacking and how much better a TL is. IMO, the RL's problem starts with it being related to the Accord. The RL is limited in size because the Midsize Global Platform has it's limits. I understand that the Accord is Hond's Bread and Butter sedan and all else revolves around it.

But if the RL were it's own car in everyway and if Japan would let NA designers and enginers have more control then I think we would have a killer flagship of a car. It could still be used to showcase the latest and greatest in tech while offering buyers an upscale sedan.

This would also allow the TL to move up market and way from the limits of the Accord. The RL could be big and sporty with all kinds of luxury and tech features while the TL could be smaller, sportier (due to being smaller), have some of the luxury features and some of the tech features offered on the RL.

jhr3uva90

Here's the problem: Acura needs a real flagship. Until then, people will put unfair expectations on the RL. The RL is too small? Have you checked the size of the BMW 5 series, Lexus GS, Infiniti M and other competitors? They are all roughly the same size (although the BMW and Lexus are slightly smaller). Not enough power? Do any of the competing V6's have more power?

If designers in North America designed the RL, it would sell very well -- IN NORTH AMERICA. Could someone please tell me what other North American-designed cars sell well overseas? Do Europeans, for example, really appreciate the American aesthetic when it comes to cars? Do the Japanese?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, people judge the RL unfairly because it is an ACURA. If it were another brand, particularly a brand with a true full-sized flagship, many of these negative comments would not be made.

And if a person can do without the SH-AWD or the gadgets, why did he get an RL? And if he got an RL, why complain about it after the fact? Gadgets and SH-AWD are the main reasons for driving the RL.