Regular or premium
#204
Well, the manual says anything under 91 can cause pinging and anything under 87 can cause engine damage. Here in Denver, stations usually have 85, 87 and 91, so I'd be hesitant to use anything under mid-grade.
There are a lot of messages on the forums saying that going with higher octane will give you better mileage, but I haven't seen it.
I run the 91 - I figure $0.20/gallon x 16 gallons... What's another $3.20/fill up after paying for a "premium" car? I gas up about every 10 days - 2 weeks, so I'm really looking at about $100/year difference between low grade and premium fuel. That's less than I spend on car washes, so why risk it?
There are a lot of messages on the forums saying that going with higher octane will give you better mileage, but I haven't seen it.
I run the 91 - I figure $0.20/gallon x 16 gallons... What's another $3.20/fill up after paying for a "premium" car? I gas up about every 10 days - 2 weeks, so I'm really looking at about $100/year difference between low grade and premium fuel. That's less than I spend on car washes, so why risk it?
#205
Whatever you put in will be fine as long as it's not diesel or E85.
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/dimcorner/rdx
I have put 87 in the last 4 tanks and it doesn't ping. I am planning to switch to 91 for 4 tanks to see if there is a difference but I doubt it. It is my personal belief that if they pulled the engine off an Accord that uses 87 and stick it in the RDX with no increase in power nor torque then the map is the same since and advance in timing would generate more power and also make premium a requirement instead of optional.
Here the difference between 87 and 91 is $.40/gal.
I fill up every 10 days so about 16,000 per year or so. Car gets average of 25mpg so 640 gallons of fuel a year.
87 octane is about 2.30 here so $1,472.
91 octane is about 2.70 here so $1,728.
$256 dollars difference per year, or basically 2/3 of a car payment for me. Not much but I rather use $256 for something else.
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/dimcorner/rdx
I have put 87 in the last 4 tanks and it doesn't ping. I am planning to switch to 91 for 4 tanks to see if there is a difference but I doubt it. It is my personal belief that if they pulled the engine off an Accord that uses 87 and stick it in the RDX with no increase in power nor torque then the map is the same since and advance in timing would generate more power and also make premium a requirement instead of optional.
Here the difference between 87 and 91 is $.40/gal.
I fill up every 10 days so about 16,000 per year or so. Car gets average of 25mpg so 640 gallons of fuel a year.
87 octane is about 2.30 here so $1,472.
91 octane is about 2.70 here so $1,728.
$256 dollars difference per year, or basically 2/3 of a car payment for me. Not much but I rather use $256 for something else.
#206
Premium doesn't seem to be helping
I recently switched back to premium hoping to improve my mpg and it seems the opposite has happened. I'm currently avg about 18 mpg in mainly city driving. My TL is at 82K so maybe I need a tune-up? I love this car but getting 16 mpg makes me think about getting a gas sipper.
#209
I think several discussions have been had and concluded that there are no damage risk of using regular octane gasoline in the 2013 RDX.
The 2013 RDX uses the same J35Z2 engine as the last gen Accord V6. The compression ratio value of 1:10.5, unlike other Acura engines, also indicate easy compatibility with regular grade gasoline
The real question up in the air is if this practice is worth while $$ savings if there is a mpg hit as well.
According to my experience (and several others) under light use there are no mpg penalties whatsoever.
Others have reported under heavier use (towing, mountain drives, aggressive driving) there is a slight mpg hit, some say not .. nothing conclusive yet.
#210
I recently switched back to premium hoping to improve my mpg and it seems the opposite has happened. I'm currently avg about 18 mpg in mainly city driving. My TL is at 82K so maybe I need a tune-up? I love this car but getting 16 mpg makes me think about getting a gas sipper.
Here's where to find stations near you:
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=TX
Good luck; let us know how it works out.
Edit: forgot to mention - at highway speeds (65-70 mph) I'm getting 30 mpg+.
#211
Use the fuel recommended by acura unless it is not available and you need gas then use highest grade available. While you can technically use lower grade fuel, you will get lower power and ironically lower gas milage....
#213
Engineers at Honda/Acura are smarter than you are. Now that we got that out of the way.....
sure you can run your engine on 87 octane but it is not recommended especially when the weather gets warm outside and the engine starts to ping.... the knock sensor only has so much control over the timing. (ask the 3rd gen TL guys about detonation in warm weather even with premium fuel)
19. Octane — RLX, TL, ILX, RDX, MDX, TSX V-6
Using gasoline with an octane lower than 91 octane may cause damage to the engine. Please consult the owner's manual for details.
so you pay $35 - 43K for a car and you are a cheapskate on gas? Do yourself a favor and buy a Honda accord or some other car that does not require premium fuel then you don't have to worry about it.
#214
Yawn...does this apply to our last two $49k Volvos that ran just peachy on 87 octane? Yes, 87 min required, max performance from high octane fuel...sounds familiar.
#215
#216
#217
Refueling
Fuel Information
■
Fuel recommendation
Unleaded premium gasoline, pump octane number 91 or higher
Use of lower octane gasoline can cause occasional metallic knocking noise in the engine and will result in decreased engine performance.
Use of gasoline with a pump octane less than 87 can lead to engine damage.
Can someone point out where in the above copied from the owner's manual where it says that 87 octane will damage the engine. My dealer's GM went to the RDX plant and was briefed by the actual engineers that 87 octane was just fine to run but COULD cause knocking and slightly less performance but would not hurt the engine. The GM stated this in a seminar for new owners at the dealership where there were many new RDX owners in attendance. Don't think he would say that if he wasn't sure about it. The engineers say it is ok to run regular as long as it's at least 87 octane. What part of that don't you understand. Are the engineers idiots too? After all, Acura warrantys the engines for 6yrs or 70k miles and I would think the engineers wouldn't have allowed that to be put in the owners manual if 87 octane would hurt the engine.
There is a big difference between "required" and "recommended" and auto manufacturers are very careful about the wording on these issues. Ford recommends premium for their ecoboost engines for top performance but clearly state that it is not required. Burn what you like as it's your choice but refrain from calling others names. It really makes you appear childish.
#218
Well, the manual says anything under 91 can cause pinging and anything under 87 can cause engine damage. Here in Denver, stations usually have 85, 87 and 91, so I'd be hesitant to use anything under mid-grade.
There are a lot of messages on the forums saying that going with higher octane will give you better mileage, but I haven't seen it.
I run the 91 - I figure $0.20/gallon x 16 gallons... What's another $3.20/fill up after paying for a "premium" car? I gas up about every 10 days - 2 weeks, so I'm really looking at about $100/year difference between low grade and premium fuel. That's less than I spend on car washes, so why risk it?
There are a lot of messages on the forums saying that going with higher octane will give you better mileage, but I haven't seen it.
I run the 91 - I figure $0.20/gallon x 16 gallons... What's another $3.20/fill up after paying for a "premium" car? I gas up about every 10 days - 2 weeks, so I'm really looking at about $100/year difference between low grade and premium fuel. That's less than I spend on car washes, so why risk it?
#219
1500 gallons/year for the two vehicles X $.40/gallon equals enough money to catch my attention...until EITHER vehicle shows any negative effects from running 87 almost full-time. Not gonna use crummy gas, not gonna use anything less than 87; but I got little reason to toss away $600 a year.
Doesn't matter how much the car cost...my $12,000 Miata wouldn't run worth a flip on 87, so it got the pricey stuff
#220
Engine knocking depends on many factors.
Reason why high altitude locations may sell 85 octane and no higher than 91 octane is because the air is thinner (lower pressure).
For NA enignes, the lower air pressure prevents knocking to some degree (also lower power) permitting an even lower octane than listed in the manual without making things worse.
Reason why high altitude locations may sell 85 octane and no higher than 91 octane is because the air is thinner (lower pressure).
For NA enignes, the lower air pressure prevents knocking to some degree (also lower power) permitting an even lower octane than listed in the manual without making things worse.
#221
RDX Premium fuel needed?
Looking at 2014 RDX. Reading post, I am looking at premuim vehicle because with 2015's being on dealer floors now the price isn't to bad and not much more than regular small suv's. But premium gas is anwhere from $.30 to $.60 a gallon more. Does RDX need/require the premium, what happens running regular 87 octane. (10% ethenol) What kind of real world MPG can expect with AWD model?
#222
I realize this thread has been around for awhile, but when I purchased my 2014 RDX in Feb 14, the dealer made a big deal that one can use regular in it. They stated that Acura recommends premium, but does not require it. My owners manual shows that premium is recommended, but it does not state that premium is required.
#223
I was nodding until that last line. These two cars are quite different, and I'll leave it at that.
One thing Id like to see in trying premium next tank, is if i get smoother idling. Currently, its not rock solid smooth at idle, a little vibration, with or without AC on.
One thing Id like to see in trying premium next tank, is if i get smoother idling. Currently, its not rock solid smooth at idle, a little vibration, with or without AC on.
they share the same AWD system
they share the same cassis
they share the same basic suspension setup
They are just like the Accord and TL, same platform..
#224
the reason the TL requires premium has to do with how aggressive the tune is on that motor. they even have issues with 91 and high temps (they can get pre detonation). The CL type S also requires premium fuel but does not suffer from pre detonation)
also getting 273hp out of .3 more liters is not that impressive considering that they are getting 258 out of 3.2. This means that the tune on the 3.5L is NOT NEARLY as aggressive as it was on the previous engine. the
HP/L for TL is 80.6 for the RDX it is 70.8 down almost 2hp a litre. it may not seem like much but it is the difference between pre detonation and none.
also getting 273hp out of .3 more liters is not that impressive considering that they are getting 258 out of 3.2. This means that the tune on the 3.5L is NOT NEARLY as aggressive as it was on the previous engine. the
HP/L for TL is 80.6 for the RDX it is 70.8 down almost 2hp a litre. it may not seem like much but it is the difference between pre detonation and none.
#225
I realize this thread has been around for awhile, but when I purchased my 2014 RDX in Feb 14, the dealer made a big deal that one can use regular in it. They stated that Acura recommends premium, but does not require it. My owners manual shows that premium is recommended, but it does not state that premium is required.
Also, I read the 2014 manual it says basically to use 91 otherwise if you use 87 your engine might get damaged...
#226
Like I mentioned before, the engine is the same as the previous gen Accord V6 with practically identical HP and TQ numbers and the Accord doesn't need premium.
I've had 16k miles mostly on 87 without any issues or knocking.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/acura/rdx/...mcorner/202971
I've had 16k miles mostly on 87 without any issues or knocking.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/acura/rdx/...mcorner/202971
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ARascal (07-19-2014)
#227
Nonetheless, the manufacturer states that we must use 91 octane. I'm pretty sure the people that designed the car know what they're talking about. So I'll take their word over an online forum regardless of how many PhDs any of us might have in engine combustion ....
#228
Because marketing department has nothing to do with the selling of the car and "Recommending" premium fuel in order to make the Acura brand feel more upscale...
Just saying, engine code is same, HP and TQ same, "Required" not stated in the manual.
Just saying, engine code is same, HP and TQ same, "Required" not stated in the manual.
#229
In my opinion do you have to use 91 octane or higher? No. Should you? Yes. I think the car is smart enough to adjust the timing in the event that you use 87 octane or 89 octane. Anything lower than 87 octane as shown below, and then you're asking for trouble. With this said, the car was designed to use 91 or higher, so in my opinion that's what you should be using.
This is kind of a touchy topic for me because I just don't understand the way some people think. Let's say premium gas is around .30 cents more expensive than regular unleaded, and you fill your car with around 15 gallons of fuel once per week. .30 x 15 = $4.50 more per week to run premium fuel over regular unleaded. In my opinion, if you're buying a 40k suv, you shouldn't complain about having to spend a little extra money on premium fuel.
Fuel recommendation
Unleaded premium gasoline, pump octane number 91 or higher
Use of lower octane gasoline can cause occasional metallic knocking noise in the engine and will result in decreased engine performance.
Use of gasoline with a pump octane less than 87 can lead to engine damage.
This is kind of a touchy topic for me because I just don't understand the way some people think. Let's say premium gas is around .30 cents more expensive than regular unleaded, and you fill your car with around 15 gallons of fuel once per week. .30 x 15 = $4.50 more per week to run premium fuel over regular unleaded. In my opinion, if you're buying a 40k suv, you shouldn't complain about having to spend a little extra money on premium fuel.
Fuel recommendation
Unleaded premium gasoline, pump octane number 91 or higher
Use of lower octane gasoline can cause occasional metallic knocking noise in the engine and will result in decreased engine performance.
Use of gasoline with a pump octane less than 87 can lead to engine damage.
The following users liked this post:
YeuEmMaiMai (07-19-2014)
#230
because you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
#231
In my opinion do you have to use 91 octane or higher? No. Should you? Yes. I think the car is smart enough to adjust the timing in the event that you use 87 octane or 89 octane. Anything lower than 87 octane as shown below, and then you're asking for trouble. With this said, the car was designed to use 91 or higher, so in my opinion that's what you should be using.
This is kind of a touchy topic for me because I just don't understand the way some people think. Let's say premium gas is around .30 cents more expensive than regular unleaded, and you fill your car with around 15 gallons of fuel once per week. .30 x 15 = $4.50 more per week to run premium fuel over regular unleaded. In my opinion, if you're buying a 40k suv, you shouldn't complain about having to spend a little extra money on premium fuel.
Fuel recommendation
Unleaded premium gasoline, pump octane number 91 or higher
Use of lower octane gasoline can cause occasional metallic knocking noise in the engine and will result in decreased engine performance.
Use of gasoline with a pump octane less than 87 can lead to engine damage.
This is kind of a touchy topic for me because I just don't understand the way some people think. Let's say premium gas is around .30 cents more expensive than regular unleaded, and you fill your car with around 15 gallons of fuel once per week. .30 x 15 = $4.50 more per week to run premium fuel over regular unleaded. In my opinion, if you're buying a 40k suv, you shouldn't complain about having to spend a little extra money on premium fuel.
Fuel recommendation
Unleaded premium gasoline, pump octane number 91 or higher
Use of lower octane gasoline can cause occasional metallic knocking noise in the engine and will result in decreased engine performance.
Use of gasoline with a pump octane less than 87 can lead to engine damage.
$600...more than a car payment. Until I notice a reason not to, I'll keep running mostly 87 octane top-tier fuel in both vehicles. Been doing that for years...and a couple of those vehicles were a lot closer to $50K than 40
Last edited by CoachRick; 07-20-2014 at 12:19 AM.
The following users liked this post:
ARascal (07-20-2014)
#232
There is a simple test. Run two or three tanks of 87 (to make sure that any higher octane is out of the system and keep track of "feel" and acceleration especially from traffic lights and on hills.
tank up with 93 once you are well below 1/4 tank and drive the same stretches. Take note of smoothness and that feel and acceleration.
If you note a difference then the 93 (or 91) is worth the difference. Note any differences in fuel economy too.
tank up with 93 once you are well below 1/4 tank and drive the same stretches. Take note of smoothness and that feel and acceleration.
If you note a difference then the 93 (or 91) is worth the difference. Note any differences in fuel economy too.
#233
This is posted elsewhere, just to get a range of responses/opinions.
Okay, had a weird experience. I was on the freeway doing something like 60--stuck behind a "slow" truck. I saw a gap in the next lane and moved over and gave it some gas. I didn't floor it by any means, and nothing I did was something that shouldn't be allowed or possible for any car. Anyway, the car started lurching in a weird way, like I was driving on marbles or even ABS kicking in. The engine light started flashing. I know now that this means a missfire and this makes sense. The manual says to turn the car off somewhere safe and let it cool for 10 minutes, then take it to a dealer. (I didn't see this until I got home.) I was close to my exit, and my house is just off the exit, so I drove it home. The whole while I could sense that it drove "off" and at the few stops on the way home, I felt like I had to put it in neutral and give it gas to keep it from stalling. I called roadside assistance and had it towed to the dealer the next morning.
The dealer took all day with it. But here's the weird part. The dealer called with the tech by the phone so they could ask some odd questions. What kind of gas do I put in it (supreme only, BTW)? Where do I get it (never thought of it, but usually wherever I am--most often at a chevron and a 76, the closest to my house)? When was the last time I got gas (about 3 days before)?
The second day, the dealer finally called to say that I could come get it. They said all of the codes were about fuel but they had no answers. It runs fine now, and it did the night of the problem when I started it to turn in around in my driveway. I asked about their odd questions, and the service advisor was adamant that it must be supreme. I told her that Acura "recommended" supreme but not required it. She "corrected" me to say that, no, it says "recommended" and that means required. See, I'm an English teacher and didn't want to get into a semantics argument with someone who was so convinced. Then the tech who worked on it happened along. He said it's well-known that Arco and Costco are not good quality and that Chevron is the best--the implication was that I need to stick with the more expensive chains. I guess that gas that costs less may be cheap in all kinds of ways, and I've heard plenty of "techron" commercials. But this was all news to me, and if it's that much of a problem, I think during the sales process it should come up. My car has 22K miles, but if it was just out of warranty, I wonder how much a day and a half of labor would have cost me. (And for the record, the last fill up was at a 76, and it was nearly a total tank of gas I got there. And it's extremely unlikely anyone was able to tamper with my gas cap and add something.)
Just food for thought.
Mike Todd
Okay, had a weird experience. I was on the freeway doing something like 60--stuck behind a "slow" truck. I saw a gap in the next lane and moved over and gave it some gas. I didn't floor it by any means, and nothing I did was something that shouldn't be allowed or possible for any car. Anyway, the car started lurching in a weird way, like I was driving on marbles or even ABS kicking in. The engine light started flashing. I know now that this means a missfire and this makes sense. The manual says to turn the car off somewhere safe and let it cool for 10 minutes, then take it to a dealer. (I didn't see this until I got home.) I was close to my exit, and my house is just off the exit, so I drove it home. The whole while I could sense that it drove "off" and at the few stops on the way home, I felt like I had to put it in neutral and give it gas to keep it from stalling. I called roadside assistance and had it towed to the dealer the next morning.
The dealer took all day with it. But here's the weird part. The dealer called with the tech by the phone so they could ask some odd questions. What kind of gas do I put in it (supreme only, BTW)? Where do I get it (never thought of it, but usually wherever I am--most often at a chevron and a 76, the closest to my house)? When was the last time I got gas (about 3 days before)?
The second day, the dealer finally called to say that I could come get it. They said all of the codes were about fuel but they had no answers. It runs fine now, and it did the night of the problem when I started it to turn in around in my driveway. I asked about their odd questions, and the service advisor was adamant that it must be supreme. I told her that Acura "recommended" supreme but not required it. She "corrected" me to say that, no, it says "recommended" and that means required. See, I'm an English teacher and didn't want to get into a semantics argument with someone who was so convinced. Then the tech who worked on it happened along. He said it's well-known that Arco and Costco are not good quality and that Chevron is the best--the implication was that I need to stick with the more expensive chains. I guess that gas that costs less may be cheap in all kinds of ways, and I've heard plenty of "techron" commercials. But this was all news to me, and if it's that much of a problem, I think during the sales process it should come up. My car has 22K miles, but if it was just out of warranty, I wonder how much a day and a half of labor would have cost me. (And for the record, the last fill up was at a 76, and it was nearly a total tank of gas I got there. And it's extremely unlikely anyone was able to tamper with my gas cap and add something.)
Just food for thought.
Mike Todd
#234
Regular or Premium
I was told by our salesperson that we could use regular for in town use, then switch to premium for road trips.
So that's what I've been doing since we purchased our 14 RDX AWD with tech.
In town there's plenty of ump and with the vcm I'm averaging 19mpg, when on a road trip and premium we achive 30-31 mpg.
If we need more giddy up I just select Sport mode in lieu of the normal D mode
So that's what I've been doing since we purchased our 14 RDX AWD with tech.
In town there's plenty of ump and with the vcm I'm averaging 19mpg, when on a road trip and premium we achive 30-31 mpg.
If we need more giddy up I just select Sport mode in lieu of the normal D mode
#236
#238
Joe, Joe, Joe...why should I throw away $6-700 a year for more expensive fuel when both vehicles run just fine on 87? I DO use Top Tier fuel, I've just never seen any benefit to running 93(no 91 around here) vs 87 or 89. I don't lug the engine, don't run fully loaded and don't climb mountains. There is a solid forty cents per gallon difference(often more) at most of the stations around here. I really don't mind saving a full car payment every year by running good quality, lower octane petrol. Carry on...
#240
This is posted elsewhere, just to get a range of responses/opinions.
Okay, had a weird experience. I was on the freeway doing something like 60--stuck behind a "slow" truck. I saw a gap in the next lane and moved over and gave it some gas. I didn't floor it by any means, and nothing I did was something that shouldn't be allowed or possible for any car. Anyway, the car started lurching in a weird way, like I was driving on marbles or even ABS kicking in. The engine light started flashing. I know now that this means a missfire and this makes sense. The manual says to turn the car off somewhere safe and let it cool for 10 minutes, then take it to a dealer. (I didn't see this until I got home.) I was close to my exit, and my house is just off the exit, so I drove it home. The whole while I could sense that it drove "off" and at the few stops on the way home, I felt like I had to put it in neutral and give it gas to keep it from stalling. I called roadside assistance and had it towed to the dealer the next morning.
The dealer took all day with it. But here's the weird part. The dealer called with the tech by the phone so they could ask some odd questions. What kind of gas do I put in it (supreme only, BTW)? Where do I get it (never thought of it, but usually wherever I am--most often at a chevron and a 76, the closest to my house)? When was the last time I got gas (about 3 days before)?
The second day, the dealer finally called to say that I could come get it. They said all of the codes were about fuel but they had no answers. It runs fine now, and it did the night of the problem when I started it to turn in around in my driveway. I asked about their odd questions, and the service advisor was adamant that it must be supreme. I told her that Acura "recommended" supreme but not required it. She "corrected" me to say that, no, it says "recommended" and that means required. See, I'm an English teacher and didn't want to get into a semantics argument with someone who was so convinced. Then the tech who worked on it happened along. He said it's well-known that Arco and Costco are not good quality and that Chevron is the best--the implication was that I need to stick with the more expensive chains. I guess that gas that costs less may be cheap in all kinds of ways, and I've heard plenty of "techron" commercials. But this was all news to me, and if it's that much of a problem, I think during the sales process it should come up. My car has 22K miles, but if it was just out of warranty, I wonder how much a day and a half of labor would have cost me. (And for the record, the last fill up was at a 76, and it was nearly a total tank of gas I got there. And it's extremely unlikely anyone was able to tamper with my gas cap and add something.)
Just food for thought.
Mike Todd
Okay, had a weird experience. I was on the freeway doing something like 60--stuck behind a "slow" truck. I saw a gap in the next lane and moved over and gave it some gas. I didn't floor it by any means, and nothing I did was something that shouldn't be allowed or possible for any car. Anyway, the car started lurching in a weird way, like I was driving on marbles or even ABS kicking in. The engine light started flashing. I know now that this means a missfire and this makes sense. The manual says to turn the car off somewhere safe and let it cool for 10 minutes, then take it to a dealer. (I didn't see this until I got home.) I was close to my exit, and my house is just off the exit, so I drove it home. The whole while I could sense that it drove "off" and at the few stops on the way home, I felt like I had to put it in neutral and give it gas to keep it from stalling. I called roadside assistance and had it towed to the dealer the next morning.
The dealer took all day with it. But here's the weird part. The dealer called with the tech by the phone so they could ask some odd questions. What kind of gas do I put in it (supreme only, BTW)? Where do I get it (never thought of it, but usually wherever I am--most often at a chevron and a 76, the closest to my house)? When was the last time I got gas (about 3 days before)?
The second day, the dealer finally called to say that I could come get it. They said all of the codes were about fuel but they had no answers. It runs fine now, and it did the night of the problem when I started it to turn in around in my driveway. I asked about their odd questions, and the service advisor was adamant that it must be supreme. I told her that Acura "recommended" supreme but not required it. She "corrected" me to say that, no, it says "recommended" and that means required. See, I'm an English teacher and didn't want to get into a semantics argument with someone who was so convinced. Then the tech who worked on it happened along. He said it's well-known that Arco and Costco are not good quality and that Chevron is the best--the implication was that I need to stick with the more expensive chains. I guess that gas that costs less may be cheap in all kinds of ways, and I've heard plenty of "techron" commercials. But this was all news to me, and if it's that much of a problem, I think during the sales process it should come up. My car has 22K miles, but if it was just out of warranty, I wonder how much a day and a half of labor would have cost me. (And for the record, the last fill up was at a 76, and it was nearly a total tank of gas I got there. And it's extremely unlikely anyone was able to tamper with my gas cap and add something.)
Just food for thought.
Mike Todd
2) The folks at Top Tier and Costco would like to have a talk with the tech supervisor at your dealer.(Can't speak about Arco...don't have those here).