AKuRaTeK

Oh I got pictures, but I need to host them somewhere, what does a picture of burned out fluid gonna do to ya ? U know what I have a tranny to do tomorrow in a 6spd CL-S and a 5AT, and I will show ya what the FLUSHED out at 30K fluid looks like- its pitch black within 3-4K miles at most. I don't think some of ya wanna see pictures of the new trannies, they sometimes look like they just pulled them out of a junked TL from a bone yard and shipped it to us. As far as the BS about PCM and trannies... the PCM is updated for the HOT SOAK problem, not the Tranny. The tranny has nothing to do with it. Honda is now got a recall for the PCM, and its got nothing to do with the tranny shifting. Best part comes- the new PCMs fail, and half the time U get the wrong PCM, and really I aint going to be checking every PCM that I get for a tranny- U know how many of them I have to install ? Listen I don't care if U wanna belive me or not, I just know every CL and TL on the road- (the old TLs-aka mini Acura Legends where bullet proof) , will need a few trannies installed in it to reach 100K miles. I have not seen a TL or CL with over 100K miles on it and OE tranny. PEACE.

AKuRaTeK

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/aku...TRANNY&.view=t Here ya go some links. these are 7 trannies, all inwithin 5 days... I couldn't get a group photo of all trannies, I only have so much space. I said I will have em, and I aint BSn no one. Like I own the car to BS someone....

123

Those pics look fake. Not to mention low quality. Include your dealership, some CLs and installation process photos. And where are pics of the fluid?

AKuRaTeK

they where taken on a camera phone, what do U want me to do hold the tranny in my hand and wave with the other one ? I am not that strong- it takes 2 strong people to lift one of em suckers. I'm not going to say which dealer I work at, come CLs ? what do U mean ? U want pics of me taking the tranny out ? Like I said anything to expose which one I work at will not be shown. I can tell U how to take it out in DETAILED process. I been doing about 6-8 of them a week on average- seems like durring the summer heat they puke out the most. On average I wanna say I do 500 trannies a year-alone.

123

Take some more convincing pictures. Include your dealership, garage, CLs with it. Tranny fluid? I think you are just here to waste everyone's time. If you're not, prove it.

AKuRaTeK

Do I wanna loose my job right now ? when I make soo much $$$ off it ? No, I am not that DUMB alright. I can take "more convincing" pictures with my regular camera. But everyone on the Nissan forums is laughing histerically when I tell them the stories of how U can blow a Brand new 04 TL up in 30 sec in the parking lot- yes its been done.

acuraboy_RENAMED

you mentioned that the 5AT can be blown without even moving out of park or something to that effect. you seem willing to divulge info like how to r&r trannies and such. i'm not asking you to post your shop's name or anything of the sort. just wondering what the procdure is by which you can blow the 5AT

AKuRaTeK

Brake torque it for about 1 min straight- U will blow the shit out of it with no problem. Especially when its hot outside. This will only damage the tranny. We where told to do that in the begining so that Acura wouldn't bounce back the trannies that had just slight slip into 3rd... so we made em not move at all.

AKuRaTeK

I wanna clariffy that we didn't have any tranny failures on the 04 TLs yet, 2 cases in the whole nation so far on a 04 TL tranny. And I didnt personally blow one up or no one that I know did. Someone on the West coast has thou.

EricL

IMO, a few "I don't knows" from you would help your cause... Unfortunately, comments made that are incorrect, tend to invalidate some possibly useful information. Here is an excerpt from the “condensation” I did on the report sent to the NHTSA from Honda/Acura (I excerpted and spent a lot of time digging around into the problems in the transmission and spoke at length with the NHTSA).

LINK to excerpt below: http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...hreadid=104677


"Notes about change to ECU to the hydraulic pressure characteristics. They changed the ECU for different shift characteristics during (1) low temp startup and (2) during repeated shifting in 3-2 kickdown and 2-3 upshift modes. The retard is increased by two degrees during the shift. The resulting plate temp is kept below 300 deg C or less [the old temps were > 360 degree C!].

“By changing ECU data setting for shift, the repeated shift mode and low water temp mode have become OK”

P788:

ECU change info (COLD):

Previous shift when cold was 6200 RPM on 2 to 3 shift. Modified (new) version is now shifting at 5700 RPM. (THIS IS FOR COLD OPERATION [ATF COLD])

G-force went from 0.100 (pre-mod) to 0.112 (post-mod)

ATF temps around 30 deg. C

P789:

ECU change info (WARM)


Previous shift, when warm, was 6426 RPM [measured] during 2 to 3 upshift. Modified ECU now has shift at 6369 RPM [measured] during same 2 to 3 upshift.

G-force went from 0.110 to 0.130.

ATF was 83 – 85 degrees C.


EricL note: I don’t think the figures point to a loss of power with the increased G-Force from the ECU replacement/mods! (YMMV)




If the ECU/PCM only had changes that were related to "Hot soak" issues, there would be NO CHANGE in shift schedule.


If you believe that a number of units are now being shipped that are incorrect and do NOT have the correct part numbers or software, I would hope that you would at least fill out a report for Acura to look at.

There have been more than a few members that were "concerned" about the changed shift operation of the "updated" transmissions and these would back the information reported to NHTSA by Acura.

As for the change in fluid: If you already have fluid that smells burnt, it's probably a sign that the 3rd gear clutch pack (and/or other clutch packs) have been pretty well damaged and will go sooner (rather than later). Depending on the duration of the “burn” event, it can extend the life of a transmission. (They all fail sooner or later. The very nature of the clutch packs will allow for wear and the debate is about HOW LONG they last – not if they last forever.) If a dealer wants to try putting in clean fluid to try, let ‘em do it. If the clutch packs are really burned, it will only go a few thousand more miles. I had a buddy get quite a few more miles of life out of a poorly behaving transmission by having a full flush done (this was before Acura “came clean” to the NHTSA).

Changing engine oil and transmission oil is important. Even if everything is going well, elevated temperatures degrade the fluid properties with time. If you want to help someone "void" their warranty, keep telling them to NOT change their ATF according to the minimum schedule listed in the owner’s manual.

BTW, regarding the CLS/TLS/TL car brake torque comment(s):
1. The ATF passages are already “marginal” in some locations.
2. The ATF intercooler is undersized.
3. Dumping a ton of HP into the transmission -- via a 30-second or longer stall torque test -- is a sure way to fry the transmission.


4. The bulk of the engine’s energy is being converted to heat and getting rid of the heat is a major problem. Outside of repeated 2-3/3-2 upshifts and downshifts (used by Acura to fry the clutches during their internal tests), a torque brake explosion test IS NOT RECOMMENDED!


Please check out page 14-127 of the 2001 Acura CL Service manual. That page is titled, “Stall Speed Test.”

It says:

Engage the parking brake

Connect a tach…

Make sure the A/C switch is OFF.

After the engine has warmed up to normal operating temperatures the radiator fan comes on, shift to 2 position.

Fully press the brake pedal, accelerate for 6 to 8 seconds, and note the engine speed.

Do not move the shift lever while raising engine speed.

Allow TWO minutes for cooling, then repeat the test in D5, 1, and R positions.


Please note that it says 6 to 8 seconds and it also says allow 2 minutes between tests for cooling. Is the factory manual clear enough?


If you looking to overheat the tranny's torque converter, that will do it (especially if repeated).

Look, the trannies are not bulletproof, and there are ways to keep them running longer. If you give me ANY automatic with clutch packs, I'll trash it for you... (And that's not to say that there are not a lot of build issues that Acura should have done a better job on...)

keith419

My tranny last until 107,000. I was lucky that Acura covered it under warranty. I do remember replacing my tran. fluid around 92K for the first time.

Amoeba

I cant believe it but I think this guy is right. I got my fluid changed cuz of the unnatural color in an 03 Cl-s at 10,000 miles. 8,000 miles later my tranny is shot.

acuraboy_RENAMED

WOW!!! talk about resurecting the dead...

think about what you just posted Renegade...

your tranny fluid had an "unnatural" color....this should indicate to you that there's something wrong internally. changing fluid never fixed an internal tranny failure. fluid never properly torqued a bolt and it never repaired a clutch pack and it never aligned spider gears. changing tranny fluid is only done as a maintenance practice OR as part of some other repair.....OR in your case the dealer who changer your fluid did it to buy some time and possibly make a few bucks.

cis989

I've been reading the tranny posts since I registered hoping above all hopes to never have to submit my own.

Guess what...here's mine:

Got the ATF replaced for my 30K service about 6 months ago and everything was going great. I passed 39K and thought to myself, hey I'm going to be one of the lucky SOBs. NOT!

Before I got to 39.5K, my 2-3 shift has gone crazy; sometimes it's fine and sometimes it hunts for 3rd. My first indictaion was last week when the tranny couldn't pick between 2nd and 3rd for about 10 seconds. I thought it was just a fluke; I should have know better. Yesterday 50% of my 2-3 shifts started puking.

Guess I will call the Acura Service Manager tomorror morning to schedule the tranny replacement and loaner vehicle.

I'm thankful for a place where I was able to learn so much and to get both informed and prepared of the tranny issue.

RUF87

Ok, did I understand this correctly in that the PCM change does not (should not) effect performance? If anything, it sounds like the change may potentially (or could) slightly improve performance. That is if I read the G-force is higher, meaning more power, and if the temps stay cooler, then that means less parasitic loss of HP from higher temps.

???

Ruf

EricL

It's Acura's data. I believe the data refers to the shift transitions. If you want to cut down on wear, you generally want to make a "jerky" transition between shifts. If Acura added "dead time" between shifts, the clutches are not being powered up/down (slipped/transitioned) at the same time; this means you get less wear. The downside is having a more abrupt shift -- it's not going to be as smooth, and the G-force would go up.

You could effectively end up losing a bit of power to the ground by leaving some "dead time" between the 2nd-to-3rd shifts. If you want power to be constantly transmitted to the front wheels, you would want the two adjacent gears to "slip" at the same time. 2nd is transitioning to "open" and 3rd is transitioning to "closed" during an upshift. You would perceive less G-force in the transition; would get more power down to the ground; would get smoother shifts; and would get a lot more wear. The two clutches would slip more and would “fight” each other -- in a kind of tug of war -- as they generated opposing forces into the other gear’s clutch disks. (Look at it this way: if you want a seamless transition, the 2nd and 3rd gears need to be simultaneously slipped and the transmission ends up "fighting" itself for a brief period. AKA: Dueling clutch packs.)

So, just because the transition is changed to reduce slippage, it doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't cut ignition timing and/or do something more drastic. (I'm not saying they did this. I’m only suggesting that I have yet to see solid data from any member showing dynos, track times/slips, and/or other data from before and after an exchange. BTW, I'm not talking about seat-of-the-pants impressions that, IMO, can be so deceptive and subjective.)

RUF87

EricL, very nicely explained.

Now that I understand this better, I'll see what I can discover from my tranny replace, which will be happening soon.

I don't have a current dyno with my current mods, but I do have some track times. And seeing that my runs are fairly consistent, any anomily should show up. That is depending on how much difference the change in tires might have. Either way I'll be sure and report my results. If it's just a few hundreths or even a 10th, I'm probabably not going to complain. However, if it's a couple of 10ths, then I'll be upset.

Ruf

Nevada3

I have 83k on my 01 type-S and expect to break 100k by the end of the year. How did you get the dealer to cover the tranny under warranty and does anyone know how much is it likely to cost me if mine goes afer 100k? I am very nervous.

Nevada3

I have 83k on my 01 type-S and expect to break 100k by the end of the year. I recently bought the car and have no idea if the transmission or even the fluid has been changed. How did you get the dealer to cover the tranny under warranty and does anyone know how much it is likely to cost me if mine goes after 100k? I am very nervous.

EricL

Well, I'm not exactly sure, but somewhere around 2K to 5K $$$.

If you got a one-time good will replacement, if could be free.

At that point, it might be worth checking into a "modified" box with stronger clutch packs, bearings, etc. I don't know how it's holding up, but...

LINK:
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...88#post1772788

SilverBullet_RENAMED

If the fluid is dirty, it has more dirt particles to help it get grip on the belts, etc. When clean fluid is put in, it smooths those out and it has less grippy surface. So in other words, he is right. It might not be a good idea to switch fluids. Leave the fluid alone. I had mine changed and it didn;t take long for the tranny to die afterwards. I did this also on a Maxima the tranny died immediately after the flush. Go figure.

SilverBullet_RENAMED

I would recommend HIM NOT to post his dealership or any personal information on him or where he works to anyone. I have seen in the past we have idiots that like to report people and get them fired.

Alot of you guys are making me laugh for the lack of common sense on how things work. lol

sadacuraboy

I have a 03 cl-s on it's second new tranny replaced at 75k. 3 trannys have been in the car. They replaced it two weeks ago, now an oil seal went that butts up to the tranny-and they say it's normal!!! I have called other acura dealers who say that "aint" so. Acura corporate said they may help me out with a "goodwill" proposal. I am filing lemon law suit too. What can I do with this car? I owe 24k and Kelly blue book says it's worth 14k I love the car but after 100k miles I am on my own with these trannys! Any sugestions appreciated...

sadacuraboy

I neglected to mention that they want me to pay for the seal at a cost of 800.00 and that I feel it's like getting a brake job and having the wheels falling off. It can't be a coincidence? I baby the car!

Badcls01

I Have 100,200 On The Original Tranny The Last Time It Was Serviced Was About 42,000 And I Don't Know What They Did. I've Tried To Make It Blow But It Hasn't. I've Pulled It Into Drive From Neutral At 5300 Rpm. Only Thing That Smoked Was The Tires. But It Will Probably Go Now That It Has Over 100,000 And No Warranty.

SilverBullet_RENAMED

OMG your dumb.

EricL

What belts? Are you sure you don't mean bands? Our transmission doesn't use bands (or belts). The friction material is in the clutch disks. There is a stack of clutch packs and interleaving disks inside of each gear. They don't like dirty fluid. The lower gears have more disks (more torque), and the higher gears have fewer (less torque).

The additives eventually wear out. If you want to insure that you are NOT giving the tranny a good start, avoid the factory recommended changes and hope for the best. If you don't change by the factory recommended interval, they now have an excuse to deny coverage. It really is that simple. (BTW, I'm not saying that they WILL deny coverage, but they certainly would be within their rights to make a very large issue of that.)

If you find some people that haven’t changed the fluid and are OK, great for them. One or two cases are statistically useless and drawing conclusions based on that kind of sparse data is akin to voodoo practice. IMO, you’d be better off using an Ouija board.

There are lots of morons out there. They work in many fields. An analogy: if I had a failed knee operation and I said, "My knee was never right after they operated on it", it would be silly and illogical to conclude that ALL people who get a similar procedure will be screwed. IOW, just because YOU had a bad experience with a flush, doesn't mean others will.

There are some idiots that use flushing gear that is not appropriate for the transmission. And, dealers are included in this group. There was one clown that wanted to "flush" my Maxima's tranny with some stuff that was not recommended. They wanted to put a harsh solvent through the tranny to clean it out. That would NOT have been good for it.

If you follow the Acura's manual and just exchange the ATF or change a few quarts, you are refreshing the additive package that is so critical for longevity.

EricL

IMO, it will probably go soon with your ongoing transmission abuse. I don't care who makes the transmission, if you move from neutral to drive at 5+K, you're abusing it.

RUPNOK

Tranny fluid changed @30K, no problem.

Tranny fluid changed @65K, no problems yet (now 66K).

I doubt the battery has ever been disconnected but can't be sure...

paulff3

6 miles!!!!! Funny!!!!!

leatherman

On my 2001 CL-S, had the first tranny replaced at 48 k. Actually, on instructions from Honda, they attempted to fix it first, and I made it about 10 miles.

Took the car in for 60 k service last Thursday, and the 60 k service includes tranny service. Thursday night I notice a high pitching whining sound. Called dealer and took car back Monday AM. The shop foreman said "maybe we should not have serviced it, as it only had 12,000 miles on it". They still have the car and are awaiting approval for new tranny from "techline"?

Question: What questions should I ask about this tranny that they are going to put in, to ensure that I get a good one, if that is remotely possible? The first one was replaced in August 03.

Thanks!

EricL

1. Ask them if you are getting a "rebuild" or a "new" one. They can tell you anthing, but, IMO, it couldn't hurt to ask for a new one. The reviews are mixed, but some members' problems stopped when they got a new one. (Well, at least it didn't fail a couple of miles down the road after repeated failures.)

2. See if they can change-out the torque converter, shift solenoids, and any other interface components. If you have a couple of "dud" solenoids and/or they are dirty, they can make a brand new tranny -- or a rebuild -- fail in a big hurry. The solenoids are "linear" and have the ability to control how the gears "shift." It is really important to have the transition from one gear to another done properly and the solenoids play an important part. If they are "sticky" or malfunctioning, you can have the clutchpacks, from two gears, engaged for too long a period during a shift. (They wear out rather quickly when that happens!)


The shop foreman's comment concerns me. If he is only using the factory procedure for a "change", there shouldn't be any problem.