JZ

Well, I've been pretty pissed about this whole tire thing for the majority of today. Acura has really stacked the odds against us by first building a car that requires XL-rated tires and secondly by having a 7" rim size.

Here's the story.

As many of you know I put on the Potenza RE730's in 225/45/17 a while ago and many have followed suit. I got 22K out of them and they are now completely worn down and the tread is chewed up pretty bad. Tires were rotated every 7500miles at least.

So, I ordered my Khumos on Friday and they should be here tomorrow. Just after I ordered them I came to notice that my drivers side front tire was completely flat. So, I've been driving around sparingly with my doughnut for the last couple of days.

Now, to the more serious part of the story.

Probably half-way through the life of the Potenzas I noticed that the road noise really increased. Being that they were Z-rated tires I just assumed this was the price I had to pay. Now, however, I feel that it may have been more due to the massive beating that our overweight car put on them making them very much "deformed". When I examined the tire I pulled closely after filling it back to 36psi with air I noticed that the sidewall of the tire was massively deformed and looked very, very unsafe. It was very much out of round on the inside tread! This leads me to believe that the Comptech springs are continuing to give substantial negative camber that may be very bad for overall tire life and safety.

Interestingly, the tread wore fairly evenly, suggesting that there was not a massive camber problem, but the look of the inside wall of the tire was very disconcerting.
(and yes, I had a re-alignment done at the time these tires were put on).

Now, the next problem is whether or not to have it re-aligned once again, the new problem being that I bet an alignment job is going to be a bitch with the new 235's on the car. On top of this, now I am more worried than ever about putting on the larger tires due to this issue.

In short, to those of you with 225 size tires I suggest you pull one of them and look for this issue, as it looked quite unsafe.

Where did those of you with the Toyo Proxies in 225 with the XL rating get them from and how much?

Any input would be appreciated.

Caddyİ

Interesting JZ. Are there any 225/45 or 235/45 ZR Rated Tires that met our Load Rating Requirements ? I've had decided on 235s when the time comes....

or maybe if others are having similiar issues: may need to Re-think !

JZ

As of checking tirerack and the toyo website there is not a single other tire in the EOM size that will fit our car (i.e. XL load rating).

Presently, I will be drafting a letter to Acura customer service bringing up this important issue. Heaven's forbid, what if Michelin stops making that tire we would all go shoeless or have to use out-of-spec tires which would be very bad.

I'll post a copy of the letter when it is done.

Man, I'm pissed!!!


Anyone have the address where they have sent complaints in the past?

Caddyİ

Corporate information is somewhere On their Website I believe.

Keep us posted

EricL

IMO -- Until Michelin stops making the OEM 215/50R17 XL 93V MXM4, you will probably be fighting an uphill battle.

The Toyo T1S in 225/45ZR17 94W (reinforced casing/XL) will fit happily on 7" through 8.5" rims. The 7.5" figure is the "measuring rim" size -- this is generally the optimum rim size. It is the rim size used to provide the specs shown in a tire's table (section width, etc).

Toyo stopped showing the "*" designation (that was included in the older table) -- it indicated that the tire had the reinforced casing (equivalent to an XL).

The Toyo 235/45-17 is a pain to align (on stock 7” wide rims), but has a 97 rating.



Comments on the RE-730:

Call Tire Rack and ask them to verify what I'm telling you. A number of people have complained about the tire's getting "harsh" near the end of tread life. Not all tires do this -- it just happens that the RE-730s seem to have this behavior.


Comments of Toyo purchase:

I got them from a local dealer, but he failed the customer service test on my SSRs.

I have seen the 235/45-17s available from "TreadDepot.com" and others for around $160.00.

The prices vary all over the place -- welcome to Toyo-land.

EricL

Toyo T1S proxies 225/45-17 & 235/45-17 with 94 and 97 load ratings and reinforced casings (XL equiv.).

moomaster_99

I have no problems....

Caddyİ

Eric

So based on the Load Ratings, fitment, alignment friendly, the 225/45-17 is a more "suitable" option than the 235/45 ? even if it isn't as close to SPEDO ?

Or would I be putting words in your mouth ?

JZ

Here is the text of the letter I will send to acura today:


Dear sir/madam:
I am writing to bring attention to a very important issue regarding the tires chosen to equip the 2001-2002 CL and TL-Type S automobiles. After searching for new tires to replace my factory originals a number of important findings have come to light that I think should be addressed and brought to the attention of your customers.
It was not long after purchasing my 2001 CL Types S that I realized the factory tires were inadequate for such a performance-oriented coupe and were poor performers in both dry and wet weather conditions. As a long-time member of Acura-CL.com, the online community for the Acura CL automobile home to more than 1000 CL owners, the poor performance of the factory tires has also been noted by the majority of members and many have opted to look for aftermarket tires to replace the originals. However, while I feel that the “under-tiring” of the CLS is quite disconcerting and seldom seen on other manufacturer’s sport package-equipped cars, even more disconcerting is the absolute lack of availability of suitable replacement tires for this car.
After searching available replacement tires at Tirerack.com and Toyo.com (encompassing tires from 15 separate manufacturers), there was but a single tire that was suitable for use on the CLS, that being the Michelin factory originals. Due to the relatively heavy curb weight of the CLS, a tire with an XL load rating is required for safe operation and in the 215/50/17 size there are no other options. In essence, we are confined to buying very costly Michelin tires that are poor performers and very unsatisfying for daily driving of such an automobile. It is unclear what would happen if this tire were ever to be discontinued, as all CLS and TLS owners would be unable to suitably equip our cars with safe tires meeting factory specifications.
Furthermore, because of the choice to use a 7 inch rim size, we are unable to upgrade to a 235/45/17 tire size (requires 7.5 inch rims) that would most closely match the OEM tire diameter, provide increased performance and be capable of handling such a heavy automobile. Lastly, while a 225/45/17 series tire would fit onto the 7 inch rim of the CLS, there are no such tires capable of handling the weight of the CLS in that size and a significant change in overall wheel/tire diameter would be observed in this instance, thus causing the speedometer/odometer to provide false readings.
In conclusion, I am very disappointed at the decision on the part of Acura to equip both the CLS and TLS with a wheel/tire combination that offers absolutely no flexibility in the choice of tires to be used. The Michelin tires that come standard with these cars are poor tires for a performance-oriented automobile and are also exceedingly expensive. With the lack of availability of tires in this size, however, the owners of the CLS and TLS have but two choices: to re-tire the car with the inadequate and costly factory Michelins or use a non-approved tire that could ultimately prove unsafe for driving. I truly hope that these comments are taken into consideration, as one would be unlikely to have ever predicted this scenario at the time of purchasing the car. If I can provide you with any additional information please do not hesitate to contact me.

EricL

Depends on tire -- however, based on the “alignment rubs the clear coat issue”; I would think the 225 in a Toyo might be less of a problem. (The speedo is off, but I don't see anyone complaining about VSA and NAVI issues) Then there is that issue of light scratching of the clear coat with the Toyo 235 + stock rim (I can't comment on any other brands/models).

If you were considering wider wheels, the 235/45-17 would be the way to go. Technique did say it did NOT rub when put on the 17x8 +48 offset SSR Competitions with Comptech springs.

JZ

The whole thing with the 225 size is that even in that size I think the Toyos are the only tires capable of handling the weight, and secondly you compromise the speedometer/odometer readings.

I think my message from above is pretty clear that while I am disappointed in the performance characteristics I am even more disappointed in the choice Acura made to equip the car with tires/rims of this size due to its weight restrictions.

I really don't know what to do right now. I guess when the Khumos come in I will see what he installer thinks about the fit. The reccommendations for rim size are not the Bible--very often people run on tires that are "unsuitbale" for their rim size.

What a PITA. Maybe I'll just get 4 doughnuts. Which also leads me t owonder how well that doughnut can hold up to Bertha's weight.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

I might add that the stock Micheling will bubble in no time once you hit a pothole....

Super easy to damage a stock tire....

JZ

I guess the only options there really are is to buy replacement OEM tires or buy a tire/wheel combo for mucho dinero that works or use out of spec tires.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

Worse.... there is no snow tires in 215/0/17..... NONE!!!

fast_daddy_car

I agree, our rim size stinks (215/50/17-93 on a 7 inch rim).

I checked several manufacturer's web sites, and the 235/17 tires ideally want an 8" rim, but can be downsized a bit to 7.5". Our 7" rims are too much a compromise for safety in our big heavy car, imho. Might as well just buy the manny/moe/jack $79 for 4 specials

I found an all-season tire, the Toyo FZ4 comes in a 225/45/17-94 that is sized for a 7" rim. Anyone try these in the snow??
But you still have the problems that the 225/45 is not a good size match to our stock tires for spedo and possible vsa issues.

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...threadid=54242

Looks like our only option is to get new rims

CO-CL-S

For snow tires your best off getting 16" rims and 205/60-16 tires.
In three years they pay for themselves. i.e. $850.00 wheels and tires. or $600.00 for 215/50-17's and six tire changes at app. $50.00 each. YMMV

JZ

I'll add that in as well, Nashua.

rockinTLS_RENAMED

Hey, I feel for you. If you think you have it bad, look at the TLS. We only have a 6.5" rim stock. Even the 225 Toyo's are not a legitimate option if you stick to the specs.

I did notice that the 225/45/17 Toyo's are the same circumference as the 215/50/17 Michelins, 819 Revs per mile. No speedo error there. They would be my choice as an aftermarket tire. They don't even lose that much in treadwear.

Fortunately, I am not too demanding on my tires and hope to keep the stocks alive for quite awhile. Were I in your shoes, I would feel just as frustrated. Good luck on your quest and keep us updated.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

For summer, Spring and Fall: I have 235/40/18 Nitto 555 on 18x7.5 Konig Imagine rim.

For the snow winter: I am ordering today 235/45/17 LM-22 for the stock 17x7 rims... This tire is compromise between ultra-high performance and the snow traction.... cost is $710.

But really, it's more wierd that the TL-S got a 17x6.5 rim why a narrower rim? to protect the rim from being scrtched?!!! The rim is already being redesigned to avoid that....

EricL

Tire pressure and load certainly will influence the way the tires will wear and function.

There are a few manufacturers that put tires on rims that are a 1/2" too narrow (BMW and GM for example).

BTW – the Toyo 235s on stock rims (7” wide) worked great (they never rolled over).

The 235 Toyos have a VERY thick rim protector. It is possible that another make will NOT have any alignment scratching issues on the stock rim.

IMO -- keeping a regular eye on tire pressure would be a very good idea to keep the tires in great shape! (I just had my slide tire gauge go wacko after a few years of use *and* am now using a LCD gauge for gas station stops.)

JZ

Funny thing about the 6.5" rim is that it really doesn't do jack to keep it from getting scratched. My freiend just got a TLS a few months ago and already he is in the scratched rim club.

JZ

EricL--is there any rule to tell whether a tire will be fine on a slightly too narrow rim while mounting it.

I.e. you say it never "rolled over"--is that somwting you can tell before mounting the tire? Also, you said you never had any problems with the 235 on stock rims--did you actually run this size for an appreciable amount of time?

Thanks.

JZ

Nope, the 235's are the same circumference as stock: 819revs/mile stock vs 819 revs/mile Toyo. The 225's are 828 revs/mile according to their website.

fast_daddy_car

But BMW and GM worked with the tire manufacturers directly before doing this.

From what I understand, a 235/45 wants a 8" rim. Some manufacturers, like Toyo, approved the tire down to a 7.5" rim. So the 7.5" rim is already 1/2 inch downsized. By putting this on our 7" rim, you are now a full inch downsized. Is this not why the Toyo 235/45 screw up the edge of our rims, as you are pushing the edge?????

fast_daddy_car

The michelin web site lists several alternatives for our cars, but most of them are foot-noted as needing new rims

But, the Pilot XGT Z4 in a 225/50/17 will fit on our stock rims, can handle the weight, and the revs are very close to stock at 813 (vs stock revs of 819)

The toyo T1-S are the closest in 235/45/17 at 818 revs, or the all season FZ4 are 822 revs, but both want a 7.5" rim.
The 225/45 are at 828 revs for the T1-s, and 835 revs for the all season FZ4.

EricL

When I mentioned "Rolled over", I was talking about the tire folding over after making brutal 90-degree turns at speed. I do run 40PSI/39PSI (front/rear).

I ran this combo for about 1000 miles of very hard mountain and canyon running (how I need to get to places) -- I never had a problem. The time was only a few months.

EricL

I don't know if there was some "official meeting" before they did this...

I did talk to the Toyo engineers about pressure, rim width, etc.

Here is the general impressions of what numerous conversations with Toyo engineers relayed to me:

1. The 235/45-17 is "measured" on an 8" rim -- the revs/mile, section width, and other data are determined by mounting the tire on a measuring rim. As far as inferring that the tire will always work best on an 8" rim, they did NOT want to imply that (it may or may not be so). If you look at a ton of different tires with varying section widths, you will generally see 8" used as the measuring width for a 235/45-17 tire.

2. As far as the Toyos "screwing-up" our rim. The Toyos are a pretty wide tire. The rim protector is very thick. The lip on the outside of our stock rims are not square; they get narrower where the tire meets the flange. I am pretty sure that some 7" rims would allow the alignment to be done without any problem. Since I haven't tried it -- this is only my opinion.

I have the stock rims up the street and they are not screwed-up; they are fine. I was rather fixated with lightweight rims and was asking about this topic early on. So, the rims are NOT damaged in day-to-day operation. The alignment is something that Technique was warned-off about *and* I went running around to alignment shops to see what the story was. (The, "We can do it, but we may scratch the clearcoat..." came from my 'quest'.)

JRock

Okay before I go reading through all these huge posts and try to understand them, I just have two questions:

If I'm not planning on running Z-rated tires, does anything said in this thread even apply to me?

If I'm planning on running slightly wider tires than stock and perhaps slightly lower profile, but of similar rating to the stock ones (V rated or whatever), do I have any concerns, or does this thread apply only to Z rated tire problems?

Thanks!

EricL

YES (Speed rating has nothing to do with load rating, just get V or higher (V,Z,Y,W)

YES (because, what is a similar rating???)

SatinCL

Noone has said boo about the 215/50 or 225/45 GoodYear RSA's in VR spec.

They're about par with the stock Michelins.

SinnedTL

I believe Tirerack has a Yokohama Avid T4 that has a load rating of 1433 lbs. which has pretty good dry and wet traction...in 215/50/17

EricL

Yes, par in more ways than one could imagine (mostly bad ways)…

Well, the load rating is still lousy -- in fact is a pathetic 90

Interesting -- they are the squealing piggies I just replaced on my wife's Altima. I put some Yoko AVS dBs on in 205/60-15 and the difference is day-and-night. (Although not as good as the Toyos, they are quiet, feel great and stick well in the dry and rain!)

EricL

A dog with different fleas -- although it is 93 rated, the tire is "T" rated for a max speed of 118 MPH

JZ

Well, my khumos will be here tomorrow and I'll fit them on an extra wheel I have and see how it turns out. If they are totally fubar I might just return them and shell out the cash for the Toyos (which, including shipping and return shipping of the Khumos and shipping for the Toyos will practically cost me as much as a set of Pilots). I'll keep my fingers crossed for the khumos.

NS_CLS_NAV

I thought that 118 was constant speed which means tire can go at 118mph for 15mins (that's what the tech told me!)
In my opinion you would not have much problem passing 118 but dont even think about maintaining it!!
NS

acura_service

your wasting your time, the michelin tire was designed for the Acura CL by a joint effort by Michelin and Acura engineers the tire may be replaced but a replacment tire would be available, those things are ironed out in the planning stages of a vehicle, anytime you oem tires are replaced, handing, anything could change - now i know most of you prefer other brands, but i have been happy with the michelin tires, i know mercedes benz has done extensive research and for the past serveral years issues an "approved" tire list for each and every model of there vehicles, i would assume it covers them legally also in some sort of way

load ratings are extremely important!

Caddyİ

They are just so BUTT Ugly ! They are nice and Quite on the Long Stretches, but they do nothing to Inspire the performance side of the Car.

I'm awful proud of my L O A D rating however

!

EricL

Well, it isn't XL rated and if someone is trying to "observe" the factory standard, the T speed rating is NOT going to meet it. Over 100MPH will get you into jail in California, but the car does hit 130 pretty quick with a few mods and if someone is so inclined, it will stay up there (I sure hope this isn’t taken as an endorsement for a debut on the high-speed pursuit channel).

Heck, even snow tires are available in HR ratings...

EricL

YES! And understanding what the downside of having a tire with less than 93 XL would be advisable.

fast_daddy_car

I liked the stock muchies at first, but in their first winter, they really didn't go well in the snow, they were adequate though. When I hit about 10,000 miles on them, both wet and dry traction is decreasing, especially the wet traction. I do not look forward to this winter in them at only 14,000 miles on them.

I am thinking of the michelin Pilot XGT Z4 in a 225/50/zr17. They will fit on our stock rims (6-8"), can handle the weight(93w), and the revs are very close to stock at 813. They are also all-season so should go well in the snow, at least they were rated decently for snow travel (just behind the dunlops)