richardparker

iTrader: (7)

Now that looks like a way to get some budget cam gears.
Who would be receiving parts/funds.
And is there going to be a hold till 10 people get funds in.

IDon'tKnow

I will collect the funds and handle part assembly and modifications on the OEM gears.

Based on the immediate response I think I will try any get a group of 15 or 20. That will drop the price of materials a bit.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

yea im down for a set

IDon'tKnow

I'm going to sit down with a CAD guy tomorrow and get some details worked out.

Since this forum won't let me keep an editable list of buyers I have the tally going over on J32a.com (http://www.j32a.com/showthread.php?t=1446)

Looks like this right now:
1. Me (J32A2 Auto)
2. HickamHatch
3. TLdream (J35A8)
4. TLdream
5. Nutnut
6. Rajca
7. richardparker
8. civicdrivr
9. Acidbath124
10. Virus
11. Jswapsedan
12. JCharged
13.
14.
15.

IDon'tKnow

OK, who wants to take a stab at this? I know the answer, this is just for fun.

Why aren't these two keyways the same in relation to the spokes?

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

One is for a base and one for type s ???
Or one is auto and one manual.
Looks like one has further advance timming marks than the other.

IDon'tKnow

They are both from the J32A2 Auto.

IDon'tKnow

One of them is advanced 3.5* to account for the width of the trigger tooth. The event that triggers the VR sensors is actually the end of the tooth, and since the teeth are on center with the spokes, to make the timing correct the keyway is advanced 3.5*.

Technical drawings are 90% finished. All I need to do now is get the keyway added in and then measure and implement the difference in relationship of keyway between the two gears. Instead of bothering to make the centers for each gear unique, I'll just introduce the variation with the reluctor wheel mounting points on the center.

Instead of using tiny screws I've decided to use tiny dowels, and to make their positioning non-symetrical to ensure that the reluctor wheel is mounted with the correct orientation in relation to the keyway.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

one is for the back bank and the other is for the front bank with as said the trigger wheel


and i also be down for a set, if i can get the funds together ; so MAYBE



also i posted in the other forum about a counter balanced trigger wheel
but one more thing i would also like to see is, some type of reference marks for adjusting them at least on one of the slots on each gear (especially for reference if they have slipped)

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

Some people know their shit and some think they know.
All I can say is.. wow.

IDon'tKnow

Did you see my response over there about the balance? I added the inner portion of the spokes to help balance it. I'm not too worried about the .53"x.1"x.125" pieces of mild steel: they'll only weigh .48 grams each. Whereas the out of balance portion of the OE pulley is at least 8 grams out of balance, and at a single point; not distributed across 180*.

Timing marks are definitely going to be there. A friend of mine will do the machining on those to keep cost down. They will be marked by .5* camshaft degrees and they will be on the far outer rim of the center piece, referencing the original tdc marks.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

just went over there



as far as the reference marks; i was not expecting anything to be exact, but more just for reference, but having them exact would be good too

IDon'tKnow

Unless I can get my brain properly wrapped around the concept of a vernier scale and implement it on the center, it looks like we will be limited to 1* cam angle marks. Doing them at .5* spacing is simply to close together for the margin of error on the CNC router.

A couple hundred dollars out of my own pocket and I will be ready to test a trigger wheel prototype in a few days.

-Prototype trigger wheel will be in the mail to me tomorrow.
-OE pulley is in a local machine shop right now being face-milled.
-Cap screws, dowel pins, and a thread tap are in the mail.
-Mock-up prototype of the aluminum center (in wax or mdf) is in the works.

The test piece is going to simply be an OEM pulley with the trigger teeth ground off and a seperate reluctor wheel; the goal is to verify the functionality of the external reluctor wheel. Once that is done an everything checks out, we'll start talking details of group buy guys!

The things we are going to have to work out that I can think of at the moment are:
1. 6061 or 7075 Aluminum? I think the 6061 version could be done for ~$180 per set, and the 7075 for ~$220.
2. Where are we going to source all of the donor cam gears? They're only $35 each from Honda, but the prices above assume we figure out a way to get them a bit cheaper than that.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

Will these be able to be taken apart after assembled ?
So that we might be able to paint or anodize the gear part so that we could make it look nice like the center section will.
Also witch aluminum is lighter ? Is lighter the beter with this or is durability best in your opinon ?
With the cheaper aluminum will the screws be more likely to get stripped?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

with the marks being too close for the margin of error



what would the weight difference be between the two? or would it be increased strength? (as parker kinda said, i want to MAKE SURE the screws NEVER strip)



i would say wholesale at the local dealer (considering you are buying multiples of the same thing, i think they be willing to though); but it looks like that might be the case already though






also considering that the fact that my car will be down for a couple of months , if needed i can send probably my gears to you; at least for mine


maybe do two batches of gears; first batch gets new gears, which then send in there old ones; then the second batch people get those modified gears, and the cost is split or so (or something along those lines to help cut costs)

IDon'tKnow

Q: Will these be able to be taken apart after assembled ?Q: .....so that we might be able to paint or anodize the gear part, so that we could make it look nice like the center section will.Q: Which aluminum is lighter ?Q: With the cheaper aluminum will the screws be more likely to get stripped?Q: with the marks being too close for the margin of error.Q: What is the strength difference between the two metals?Q: Maybe do two batches of gears; first batch gets new gears, those buyers then send in their old ones; then the second batch buyers get those modified gears, and the cost is split or so (or something along those lines to help cut costs)

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

My gears are off. If you need a set to get stuff figured.
like you need to get something figured,wtf was I thinking, you already have everything figured.
Let me know when everyones ready.

IDon'tKnow

Thanks for the offer, but I have three sets sitting around here.
EDIT: haha @ wtf are you thinking.

There are still two things I have to sort out; keyway and trigger relationship to keyway. I picked up an degree wheel to try and figure some things out, but I'm not happy with the resolution. I'll probably end up using my DSLR to take a very high res image from a perfect Z axis and then break the picture down in a vector editor to figure out exactly what's going on there.

CL-Future

Interested in seeing where this goes

IDon'tKnow

I think there are probably quite a few people who are interested but unable/unwilling to put money up front. To that end, I think I am going to end up financing additional gears out of my own pocket and selling them afterword.

I'll have quite an investment of time and resources in this project when it's all said and done, and I think it will be fair for me to at least recoup the value of my time.

Keep in mind though, these will be marked up to some extent over the group-buy price and I won't be able to discuss them in this forum since I am not a vendor.

CL-Future

I'm willing to put $$ forward, just not sure if it would benefit me at all or not. Either way, props for bringing more alternatives to the CL community.

IDon'tKnow

ANC297

iTrader: (2)

Sweet.
Benefits for a stock j32a2?

If any, I am definitely interested. And most definitely props to IDK, good work man!

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

^ you have the ability to adjust cam timming .advance/retard
Retard for more top end power,but will lose a little low end.Good for charged,boosted,nitrous
Advance for low end power,but will lose a little top end.Good for n/a
I could be wrong but,these are the flexibility reasons I want them.

IDon'tKnow

I'm actually scheming, at this very moment, to implement a feature on these that will actually yield Hp gains (not just move the powerband up or down the rpm range) on cars running factory electronics. More on that later.

The OE pulley has been face milled down 1/8" to make room for the 1/8" thick reluctor wheel:


and....... I went ahead and had one of the gears prepped for the non-existent prototype center hub which I will try to bring into existence in the next week or so; I'm tempted to have it done in the finish material (aluminum) but that will be quite pricey; $250 at least for a pair. More than likely, I will use the prototype trigger wheel to verify the sensor functionality, do a cutout of the center hub in wax just to make sure there aren't any dimensional problems, and then get ready to order the whole lot at once.

Anyway; picture:

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

i have bills and tickits to pay right now , so yeah money is tight right now (let alone waiting [pre-ordered] on excellerate's mounts )

so gotta get a little cash flow before i can put some money out

some, but more of a benefit for the modded cars though, and as parker said VVV i want them more for the adjustability factor of them, and being able to shift the power pand around some, to my likeing

(not toatally sure on the directions, but i have not looked into it recently; i think it may actually be reversed from what you are saying though )

at first i was think the reluctoir wheel was going to just bolt to the new center and stay attached to that, but i guess sandwitching it too would work (maybe put locktite on the cam bolt, to make sure it doe s not come undone unexpectedly, but that should be about it though)




and as far as ordering them all in one lot, very possible but as you said, you would at least do a wax one and such for dimension checks and such

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

same here. its a bitch

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

also on this....





are you ABSOLUTELY sure the magnetic field will be created at the some point on the new reluctor as it does on the stock ones, since they are tapered, and may make that magnetic field at a ever so slightly sooner point (and collapse at a slightly later time) due to the sloped part of the pickups, and putting that much more "mass" outside of where the machined flats are




about the only way i could see verifying that is putting them both on an oscilloscope and making sure the pattern rises and falls at the same time (and is the same width/number of degrees of "on" time)(maybe referenced to the crankshaft too)
(edit: i was thinking of mounting them on a common shaft, then measuring them, but you then introduce the variability of different sensors then, so maybe not)

also remember different distances from the sensors, can also vary the on and off times slight too, as one more thing to consider



"sorry" for asking the headache type of questions, just wanna make sure these will work absolutely no different then stock even in the smallest of details

IDon'tKnow

The trigger wheel won't just sandwich between the pulley and the cam gear; it will be keyed with stainless steel dowels.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

i was thinking the cam itself; and the pulley (since assuming that the new reluctor wheel will be waterjet, laser cut, or something along those lines, a keyway would not be too hard to put on it)

IDon'tKnow

I'm not sure. That's the reason for testing a prototype first. Also, I'm going to have a conversation with someone tomorrow who I think will have a good answer. If need be I will test rig both on an oscilloscope for testing. Worst case scenario; price jumps due to necessity of different machining process for more complicated reluctor wheel
design.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

you might also be able to just widen the pickup point itself on the new one to kinda compensate for the undefinitive point on the stock ones though (but more then likely will have to be tweaked to an average rpm though if needed)

IDon'tKnow

OK, good-ish news. This chart shows "typical" Variable Reluctance Sensor Output versus Air Gap:


And, .050" down on the tooth looks like this:


So, if these aren't putting out what they need to, I can simply go wider (that point is .15" instead of the .1" I had prototyped) on the teeth and set up an angle grinding jig to duplicate the slope.

I also found out the manufacturer for the sensors and will contact them tomorrow for a technical data sheet.

IDon'tKnow

I see what you meant now; the keyway tapers into the camshaft so the point at which this mounts is totally circular. There is no keyway to use.

IDon'tKnow

A few items for the gears showed up today:
The flange socket head cap screws; these are class 12.9.... the minimum tensile strength on them is 176,900 psi. No, that is not a typo.





And then the dowel pins that will keep the reluctor wheel properly aligned with the pulley. These are 18-8 stainless steel. Yes, that's the tip of a ball-point pen.





And just for good measure; I went ahead and tapped the threads for the cap screws into the OE pulley:

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

comming together quite well.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

and for taking suggestions on design improvements to help try and achieve a 100% working product

also as far a material choice with the center section of 6061 or 7075, i could really care less, since the weight difference is so minimal, hard to justify $40 for 0.3 ounces; but would be helpful to achieve the LAST bit of performance though )(and if anything the stock may actually be lighter, due to everything being integrated together, and not having additional fasteners and such on it for adjustability)

IDon'tKnow

The 6061 is cheaper and lighter. The 7075 is stronger. The keyway for the camshaft will be part of that aluminum section so I would be most comfortable using the 7075. I'm 99% sure that's what I will have it made from. For those interested in the best possible cam gear, we may try and get an order done of 7075 outer gears as well.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

also in this picture i see one thing (but considering it is just the prototype though, no worries)(might also just be the photo though) the top left bolt seems to be sticking over the edge a little compared to the others


also i would like to see, if possible, for the outer ring to actually be "hub centric" to the new inner section, so that it the gear itself/belt surface run perfectly true each and every time it is adjusted, and don't have any runout (so the timing stays exact; and the tensioner will not have to compensate for it AT all)(and the bolts only have to squeeze the two pieces together, and not carry any additional loads then needed)




ie: think about aftermarket rims that are not "hub centric"

IDon'tKnow

The tolerance to which the holes will be tapped into the OE gear will be .002" of an inch. The clearance for the through hole slots in the aluminum will be .004".

I think I understand your point though and agree that it would be the correct design.