types1967

would it help and what is stock thermostat temp?

Nashua_Night_Hawk

I may look into redline wett-water or whatever is called this stuff

Wires

The water wetter works, but it's only going to help if the engine temperature is running ABOVE the thermostat temp. Once the temp drops below the thermostat temp, then the thermostat closes, and holds water in the engine until it get's hot enough for the thermostat to open.

The water wetter will only help if the thermostat is open, and the rad still can't bring the water temp down.

According to the video on the vtec site, you'll gain 15HP with the colder thermostat. The only drawback is if you are in a really cold climate, then the heater doesn't blow as hot of air.

typeR

if you can find one i will take it BTW red line WW doesnt not only help when the stat is open...its enhanced cooling properties help reduce hot spots by increasing the temp at which water boils(also a hp rad cap does this ) see www.redline.com for more details

Wires

That's a good point. You're right, it does help prevent hot spots = detonation = lower HP.

But, for the most part, don't expect any miracles out of it under normal operating conditions.

I looked into thermostats, and the local parts store has ones (170-180F) for the 98-00 Honda Accord V6. Not sure if it's the same one as the 3.2 CL though. I'd assume so, since I can't see Honda building in different housings for different thermostats (that = more cost for them).

:P

allmotor_2000

Spoon makes them... Mugen makes them. Get the fan-switch as well (starts the fan at a lower temp). The stock thermostat is 88C. The aftermarket ones are 65C, I think.

Makes some wonderous differences!

EricL

You hit the mark -- you would definitly want the modified fan-switches (two of them)...

See page 10-15 2001 CL/CLS Service Manual (Helms).

(CL)

Switch A -- > closed above 199-degree F (93-degree C)
Switch B --> closed above 213-degree F (104-degree C)


(CLS) -- three switches
Switch A --> closed above 199F
Switch B --> closed above 219F
Switch C --> closed above 210F

Could also help the "wimp" water-to-ATF intercooler...

Possible downsides: You might have higher emissions and smog testing problems (I said "may" not "will")...

acuraboy_RENAMED

pertaining to northeastern US climates. would lower temp t-stats and/or switches basically be open like all the time? if u do lots of city driving - wouldn't the stat be open most of the time and not give the engine time to get up to optimal operating temp? and wouldn't the added load to the fans being on longer either affect battery life or fan motor life?

zippy1

I really dont see the need for a lower temp thermostat unless the car was pinging or a mod was added that advanced the timing.

Wires

From the 6 speed dyno MPEG on VTEC.NET, the 6 speed picked up 6 HP, 7 ft lb of torque by running 180F instead of 200F. If the engine is cooler, more air can get in, which increases the volumetric efficiency. That gives more HP.

This is guaranteed HP.

acuraboy_RENAMED

yes cooler air is more dense = more oxygen in the combustion chamber = more hutpa...but there has to be some maxima and minima to the effrctiveness of such an approach given stock conditions.


anyone ever drop down to a 160 degree t-stat?

scalbert

I've been looking at this for a while anyway to try out. I have always dropped a lower T-Stat in my vehicles but most have been domestics. I wasn't sure where to purchase the stat and switch for this car.

The nice part is that our cars is the use of a simple fan switch as opposed to the ECU controlling the turn-on point.

However, where can you purchase both the lower temp Stat and the Fan Switch?? I have an email into King Motorsports so I'll see how they respond...

scalbert

Not in this car, but I have on sveral other vehicles. I would though, if I could find one. Does Honda use a standard size Stat?? I guess I could pull it and go to the parts store for a look...

xenon7

I'm going to do a flush and the 160 thermo change over in the next week or 2 as soon as i'm in the new place.

I believe it's a 52mm thermo- it's hard to find these in 160 F
but found a local parts place that I think sells them.


I'll keep you guys updated.

scalbert

I thought it might be a standard size. But what will be really hard to find is the Fan Switch which IMO, is also needed.

acuraboy_RENAMED

thanks for testing xenon7,

r u mainly a highway driver or city?
and do u plan to change the fan switch too or just the t-stat?

typeR

i beat you to it...there response was they dont have a mugen t stat for my application...but what that really means is no one has told them it'll fit doesnt mean it wont...they also have fan switches

scalbert

Yep, got the response this morning. The Fan switch will work fine along with the T-Stat PN: 19301-XGMR-000. However, I question the $69 price for a T-Stat. If is is just a basic stat then it can be had for $15.

I'll be ordering the fan switch soon, once I determine if I can get the stat locally.

SilverBullet_RENAMED

Remember in the winter your car will not produce heat very well if you have a lower stat.

Zapata

Couldn't we just put in a bigger radiator with better fans?????

scalbert

Ah, the nice part of being in the south. My heat never gets put on high while I doubt typeR's ever gets used!!

scalbert

Nope, that only helps if the radiator can't keep up. If the T-Stat is closed there is no flow to the radiator.

acuraboy_RENAMED

this sounds like the way to go. changing the t-stat makes the cooling system operate/cycle more and make the engine operate at a lower temp. but i would think that changing the rad/fans would make the cooling system more efficient while maintaining the optimal operating temp.

in other words:

a lower t-stat taxes the system by requiring it to work harder to keep the temp down. thus a new rad and fan switch to help alleviate this greater load. but this may not be such a hot (pardon the pun) idea for those whole live n variable climates like the northern states.

a larger rad and fan (maybe a pusher and a puller combo) simply allows the system operate more efficiently w/o manipulating the operating temp of the engine.



i suppose there's a medium between lowering the operating temp just a smidge and bumping up the rad/fan for efficiency

scalbert

As previously stated, the radiator does nothing for you until the stat opens which is near 195 degrees F.

What the larger radiator and fans would do is cool the fluid faster thus closing the stat sooner and starting the whole cycle over again. This would potentially cause more cycling.

By going to a lower stat, provided the stock radiator can keep up which currently it can, you simply lower the operating temperature provided the fans also come on as needed.

Zapata

Right but for those of us who live in 4 season weather the 120 or 160 degree t-stat isn't viable. Is there a 180 t-stat?

scalbert

A 120 stat wouldn't be suggested. I beleive the stock unit is 195 and the Mugen one we are looking at is a 180 F. There is really no reason to go to a 160 due to the lack of a han switch in the same range. The Mugen Fan Switch to accompany the 180 F stat comes on at about the same operating range.

acuraboy_RENAMED

berry interesting point....


but by the same logic, wouldn't a lower t-stat cause more cycling as well? or just a longer pulse of open and close time?

xenon7

There is one other option here:

Recommending this for those who like to test stuff!

Take out the stock thermo and drill 2- 3/16" holes one either side
of the plate. This will let coolant bypass the thermo a bit and cool things off.

I'm just going to do the 160 F as I have done before on the RX-7's and test things out a bit. I think the interior heat issue will go down by taking a little bit longer to reach temp. Just turn on both
heated seats- problem cured!!

Would be good to get the fan in sync with temps

scalbert

It can actually end up cycling much less. If the load is too high for the cooling systems with a lower stat then it never closes.

However, I should have stated that I was refering to running a lower stat with the appropriate fan control. Running a lower stat only with factory fan limits will certainly cause your cooling system to cycle quite a bit.

JRock

That's actually something my tech mentioned people do.

It seems everything we can do to change the cooling of the engine/trans has a downside... except getting a trans cooler. I still have mine and as soon as my trans is replaced i'm having it put on the new one from day one.

allmotor_2000

You guys are quick...

Anyways, I got the same response for King (for Mugen) and I'll know today about the Spoon (think its $171 for both items). I also contacted TODA but they don't make it!

How about a group buy on the T-stat and fan-switch... even if its like 5x quantity... I am sure their margins are really high!

scalbert

I'd rather buy the Fan Switch and modify the stock T-Stat than pay anything over $25 for a T-Stat. But I am placing my order for the fan switch today or tomorrow.

allmotor_2000

Keep us posted on anything you might gather about the T-stat.

EricL

Some thoughts....

Actually, there are three switches for the CLS, and the dyno might not be a great way of knowing what's happing in the real world. The car is not moving and is totally reliant on the dyno operator’s "fans" (placement? how many? Where? Etc?) and the TWO electric fans in behind the radiator (one fan on, two fans on, high speed/ low speed ???).

It might be "useful" to just insure that you can get both fans to max speed on demand (in the hills or at the strip). A relay, switch, and a couple of diodes would do to insure that the fans were on doing a pre-cool (with or without a modified thermostat). (I’m not sure if all of the three temp switches need to be on to force both fans to MAX)

And, there might be a limit to how far the thermo temp can be dropped (it's hard to know for sure -- but, you guys check this out):


Helms 11-56 (DTC Troubleshooting):

Note: ECT == Engine Coolant Temperature sensor.

There is a reference to a DTC P0116 OBDII code: "Range Performance Problems in ECT Sensor Circuit"

1. Start the engine. Hold the engine at 3,000 rpm with no load (in Park or neutral) until the radiator fan comes on, then let it idle.

2. Check the ECT with the scan tool

is 176 - 200F (80 - 93C) or 0.4 - 0.7 V indicated?

YES -- Intermittent failure, system is OK at this time. Check the thermostat and the cooling system

NO -- Check the thermostat and the cooling system. IF they are OK, replace the ECT sensor.


So, I might be reading too much into this, but it looks like 176-200F (80-93C) is the "happy range" for the PGM-FI.


And -- all of this discussion seemed to get "relit" in a big way based on the Temple of VTEC dyno.... I'm not saying this isn't a good power maker, but, it might be "easy" for someone with a scan tool to just rig-up a few test clips to watch the coolant temp and see where it sits at speed (75 MPH+), and where it sits with the fans "pulled-up" to 12-14 volts (forced on under operator control – I used to have this setup on an older RWD car and pulled the engine fan and put in a thermo-controlled fan with a switch in the car for “forced cooling”…)


IMO, it might be worth the effort to figure out how to make sure that BOTH fans are operating at FULL speed when required…

$0.02...

EricL

I think the 180 you mentioned might be best....

Have a look at note above.

...

scalbert

Hello Eric, I certainly agree. One additional issue of running a 160 degree stat is that even if the fan switch was set for this range, it is nearly constantly running.

But still, $69 for a 180 stat, must be made out of Titanium.

I need to check the schematic tonight but what I recall we would probably just replace the low speed fand switch. Again, from what I recall there is another switch for high speed fans. But typically when it is hot enough I will have the AC on which triggers the high speed fans.

I will try to re-read the schematic to verify this.

typeR

EricS

Just a quick thought/question about the rad fans. Do they turn off when the car is up to speed?

EricL

IF you mean do they turn off when a particular speed is reached -- don't know (there is a hook up to the PCM).

If you mean will they probably turn off when a particular speed is reached -- probably depending on outside air temp. The ram air coming the car at 60+ MPH is so much greater than the fan output, that the airflow across the radiator should cause the fans to turn off.

On my previous car -- with the engine fan removed and replaced with an "override switch", thermo switch, and electric fan -- the car's electric fan would shut off if it was moving over 30MPH with the outside temp below 100-degrees. They would sometimes pop on when climbing up a very steep grade (regardless of speed) if it was hot enough outside. (I could keep the fans on with the override switch, but that was for "hot rodding" and traffic situations.)

Sorry for the long answer, but the answer is -- it depends...

P.S. -- if the fans were staying on in 50-degree F weather at 60MPH with minimal mods (H/I/P/E) I'd be concerned...

My opinions only...

Wires

Has anyone checked the stock thermostat temperature? I started looking around, and nobody here has a listing for a thermostat for a CL-S (no 2001+), so it's pretty much impossible to find out what is supposed to go in there (temperature wise) (Acura parts don't know as well).

Did some reaseach, found the AutoZone website, and found out the thermostat in a 98+ V6 Accord is the same for the CL-S. According to the Dyno video from VTEC.NET, the car ran at 200F, and then they dumped in a 180F thermostat, and she picked up 6HP, 7 lbft of torque.

Sounds cool, so I called around town, and found 170F and 180F thermostats at the regular parts stores (FYI: Motor Rad PN#302-170 and 302-180 for the 170F and 180F thermostats). I picked up a 180F since winter is coming.

So, I drained a bunch of antifreeze, and pulled out the OEM unit. The OEM unit is a waaaaayy better looking piece, and mine is stamped 78 degrees C. That works out to 172F?!?! WTF? I thought it was supposed to be 195ish? Long story short, I put the OEM back in.

Has anyone else (those who put in Spoons or Mugens) checked what they pulled out?

P.S. I have a '03 6 speed.
P.P.S. Honda Antifreeze is SUPER expensive shit! In Canada it's $18 for a pre-mixed gallon!!!!!!! :o :o