gavriil

General Motors is making a strong move to reinvigorated its product and image through the newly formed GM Performance Division. Based in Warren, Michigan, the team of 1000 engineers, designers, and technicians will develop and build performance variants of cars and trucks for the Cadillac, Chevrolet, and Pontiac brands.

"For the first time, all of the expertise will be harnessed within one passionate group," said Mark Reuss, GM Performance Division's executive director. "GM Performance Division is made up of a group of enthusiasts dedicated to delivering must-have vehicles." Reuss added, "Our mission is to bring back the GM nameplates around great performance and design."

The GM Performance Division purview includes developing second-stage and one-off production vehicles, concept vehicles, parts and accessories for automotive enthusiasts, and high-performance models to be sold through GM dealers. We anticipate seeing the initial products on the show circuit starting this fall.

Zapata

Yeah it's exciting to see that the domestics will be aggressive. However, rattles, reliability, and maintainence cost will be the deciding factor.

I had my heart set on the Forumla Firebird with the W-S6 Performance package coming out of college. I asked my friend who has a 1995 firebird and he said expect rattles.

My Acura CLS.....no rattles

Klamalama

They'll have to prove it to me.

Today I was watching Car & Driver TV. They were fawning over this new Pontiac show/sports car that was recently exhibited. Bob Lutz himself drove it in etc. Then he talked about how they're going in a new direction and how they always wanted a simple 4 cyl. sports car blah, blah.

Then I recalled that I actually owned one of these. They called it a Fiero. Yup, that was going to be a new direction for them, then. It was a piece of unreliable crap and then they totally abandoned it. They did offer a $500 discount to any fool willing to take a chance on another GM product: not me.

New ideas? Maybe, but it'll be the same old GM quality (lack of).

lou_RENAMED

We can send people to the moon, but we can't keep a bumper on a Buick, cause the money is in the medicine!!!!!

eclipse23

????????????????????

Yeah, and when I thought I bought a car without rattles, reliability and low maintenance costs I realized my car was no different. Can't wait to trade mine back in I don't trust these cars anymore.

BBsAcuraRacing

It still will be" UAW- built" trash.....

Scrib

I disagree...

6 months of grad. school left and I went out and bought an '01 Olds. Alero GLS. Built in Lansing, Michigan and to date the car has had ZERO problems. I drove it for the first 6 months, and now my wife drives it. We both like the car. No rattles, no tranny problems, the paint is SUPERIOR to the CL-S. Great factory stereo and the car has great acceleration.

Every car has its problems. BMW and engines blowing up. Acura and bad trannys. Jaguar and parts falling off during road tests. It happens to the best of every car...

To say UAW - built trash, is a bunch of bologna. Maybe domestic cars don't have the glamour and glitz that the imports do, but shit... If I had to do it all over and I only had $20,000 to spend, I wouldn't even think twice about looking at another Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Chevy etc. And a Z06 Vette??? Best $50,000 you can spend on a sports car...


To each his/her own...

IWannanS

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scrib


I disagree...

snip

To say UAW - built trash, is a bunch of bologna. Maybe domestic cars don't have the glamour and glitz that the imports do, but shit... If I had to do it all over and I only had $20,000 to spend, I wouldn't even think twice about looking at another Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Chevy etc. And a Z06 Vette??? Best $50,000 you can spend on a sports car...


To each his/her own... [/QUOTE

I must disagree with your disagree. My father has owned NOTHING but American cars. Not a single car lasted over 100K miles. He has taken good care of each of these cars. Oil changed regularly, tune ups (back in the day they happened much more often) and even washed them at least every other week… even in the winter. His first car was a 54 ford (used) , 67 vette, some Plymouth, a few Mercurys ,grand marquee station wagon, another 67 vette, he bought me an escort GT, My sister an escort and he now owns a Grand Prix GT.

Me on the other hand, I have owned a 91 CRX, Civic and the current Acura. I only have 5K on the Acura but 175K on the CRX (still have it) and 107K on the Civic and ... NO MAJOR PROBLEMS. Just normal wear and tear stuff like tires, oil, batteries, timing belts, and one head gasket. My sister has owned a Civic and Accord. Both cars have (or had) over 100K on them.

In my experience, Honda and Toyota products last. American cars do not. Could they have changed that? Sure... I just haven't experienced it.

Chief F1 Fan

Big problem is, is that whoever is in charge of styling at GM now has gotta be the same guy who was in charge of AMC's styling back in the 70's=== FUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGLLLLLLLY!!!
Their new trucks are fawkin' hideous (Suv's incl), as are the ugliest vehs on the planet EVER (Rendezvous/Aztec) and the current Monte (which I used to think in the 70's was one of the nicest looking cars around). So, no matter what they do, I'll bet $$ the result will still be aesthetically insulting.


:thumbsdn:

JRock

Exactly - it's still GM. No thanks.

My parents have almost always bought GM. I wouldn't buy that unless there was something super-special and worthwhile and right now I don't see anything worth putting myself out that much for.

Scrib

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IWannanS

Quote:

Originally posted by Scrib


I disagree...

snip

To say UAW - built trash, is a bunch of bologna. Maybe domestic cars don't have the glamour and glitz that the imports do, but shit... If I had to do it all over and I only had $20,000 to spend, I wouldn't even think twice about looking at another Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Chevy etc. And a Z06 Vette??? Best $50,000 you can spend on a sports car...


To each his/her own... [/QUOTE

I must disagree with your disagree. My father has owned NOTHING but American cars. Not a single car lasted over 100K miles. He has taken good care of each of these cars. Oil changed regularly, tune ups (back in the day they happened much more often) and even washed them at least every other week… even in the winter. His first car was a 54 ford (used) , 67 vette, some Plymouth, a few Mercurys ,grand marquee station wagon, another 67 vette, he bought me an escort GT, My sister an escort and he now owns a Grand Prix GT.

Me on the other hand, I have owned a 91 CRX, Civic and the current Acura. I only have 5K on the Acura but 175K on the CRX (still have it) and 107K on the Civic and ... NO MAJOR PROBLEMS. Just normal wear and tear stuff like tires, oil, batteries, timing belts, and one head gasket. My sister has owned a Civic and Accord. Both cars have (or had) over 100K on them.

In my experience, Honda and Toyota products last. American cars do not. Could they have changed that? Sure... I just haven't experienced it.

Fair enough...

But there are plenty of people that had had success wtih American cars and enjoy them. And cars built in the states within the few years should be able to get over the 100K barrier without problems. SHOULD, is the key word. Some cars have more issues than others. Just the nature of the beast.

eclipse23

Ok guys, I'm having a BIG laugh on this whole thing. I've owned the CL-S now for two years and it rattles like an american, it has problems just as big as american cars (aka: transmissions, brakes, Actuators), and if anything I bet it will be MUCH more expensive to fix out of warranty. Our cars are built here in america and the build quality shows (mis-aligned door panels, trunk pre-tensioners breaking, loose parts) so how is it that we are better?
I don't know why it seems that some of you think the CLS is soo far ahead of the American market on quality since they are built here. While the CL-S does have a ton of options and neat things I don't consider it any better than the average car for any of the above reasons, nothing special about it. The Legend and the NSX are cars that people can look at and say that OUR build quality sucks. I don't see ourselves above the domestic market anymore.

Zapata

Hey, speak for yourself. I don't have rattles. I drive about 23k miles a year. You must go off-roading or something

SiGGy

Hey be nice to AMC. They were Jeep you know AMC had some good designers. My 5.9L engine (80 wagoneer) has a high nickel content in the block. It was designed to go 200,000 back then. And it surely did. My 96 grand cherokee (chrysler) 5.2L 4WD was a POS (borke many times, traded it in). Granted their styling wasn't the best . They did have some smart people working on their drive trains.

Red Nj-s

I'm lookin forward to seeing, GM's performance cars, but the conversation here has seem to twisted. I beleive that GM cars in general have the hardware to keep up with imports (i.e engine, transmission), but what they are missing is the little quality stuff. If you sit in an Alero, you feel like you are in a cheap car. Everything looks cheap, and is not buttoned down tight. It does however do everything else well. I also know many people who have been driving GM cars for years that are tanks. I think GM is at least as good as imports as far as major repairs go. The only thing they lack in is material quality and assembly.

pcarigna

Do you enjoy the light grey plastic buttons in the interior of your Olds? I didn't think so. GM needs to stop using the cheap plastic junk in the interior of their cars.

The UAW has done nothing but hurt the American auto industry. $80-100K a year to work an assembly line with a high school education? Give me a break. The UAW wants only one thing..... more pay for less work. God forbid that anyone has to work a little or be accountable for what they do. American cars could be built and sold for a much lower price than the imports if they stopped pissing all their money away on paying the union guys so much.

The Acura plant in Ohio that builts the CL is a non union shop and ACURA oversees the production.

The Corvette is the only American car woth buying. I know that people will bitch that BMW and Mercedes have reliabilty problems too. However, you know this before you purchase one, and if you have enough money to buy one, you should be able to afford the repairs!

Stick with the Japanese imports.

*Jumps down off soapbox*

DeansblackCLS

It will definately be interesting to see what becomes of all this. We all know that Ford, god forgive me, has some pretty impressive things out there right now--look at the 03 Cobra and the upcoming GT-40. I think GM is now wondering what they can do to remain in the market since they have all but alienated a couple of generations and don't want to continue on that line. My parents were long time GM buyers and have jumped ship due to poor build quality and cheap looking interiors.

My first car was a Honda and I know I will stay within the family of Honda product for a LONG time. They are relatively cheap to buy, cheap to modify and reliable all day long.

*ok, I have said enough--my hands are tired!

Scrib

Well, for around $20,000 what do you expect??? I mean, that's still a lot of money but you certainly can't find a car that doesn't use grey plastic buttons for that price, can you? I personally don't mind the grey plastic button, as that is what you get for the price. Sad, but true...


I see your argument, but it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Zoot

The new corolla's interior is pretty fancy (for a cheap car). And I must mention the beetle and the golf's interior. (remember I am just talking about interiors...)

SiGGy

The new tibouron is pretty cool looking too. And it has a nice interior...

Hyundai is doing a good job of stepping up to the plate. GM is definetly in trouble. Gavrill keeps posting things saying "watch out for GM" But it's going to take more than a just a little redesign to change the minds of consumers. I for one will need some serious convincing.

I really think Gavrill has stock/investments in GM

gavriil

Was the Fiero a roadster? The Solstice is a roadster. Ala-S2000 philosophy (excluding the engine).

gavriil

It is not that bad. GM was now 3rd, after Honda and Toyota in the intial quality test from JD Power and Assoc. That is not easy to do for such a large company. GM is way larger than all of them the truth is.

gavriil

When measured as seperate brands, Lexus and Acura were 1st and 2nd in the 2002 initial quality survey from JD POwer and Assoc. That is pretty good for Acura.

And dont forget. The CL is not the car that helped Acura get that honor. It is the TL and MDX. The 2 cash cows and best seller models (for Acura that is).

gavriil

I have no rattle either. Excluding the roof which I have not fixed yet. DOnt wonna visit a dealer just for that.

gavriil

I dont have any stock in GM. Though I am convinced that these guys are on the right track for improving faster than the competition.

The difference today is that GM for the first time is going head-to-head with the European manufacturers in the USA and also in their own markets. That never happened before. GM was interested mainly in the USA market building American cars for Americans. Now they are putting a Eruopean flavor in them. That will result in big changes. Watch. Another 3 years and GM will be a different company with Pontiac and Cadillac being at the fore-front of that change.