I'm sure that the 2nd gear problem is being addressed. The TSB says so. They get you a gear sprayer if 2nd gear isn't already fried. If the gear is fried, they get you a new transmission (well rebuilt or new – so you have no guaranty of getting a new tranny for one that has a bad clutch or other Q/A problems.)


If you CAN CLEARLY see that the scope of the replacement is for wasted or soon-to-be wasted 2nd gears, why do people think the MAIN problem is solved? Why do people think that the quality control issues have been fixed? I haven’t seen a single word to imply this.

Is logic lost on people?

The majority of the problems we've been seeing have been clutch flare and slip problems. And, one of the problems is having to return again and again to get multiple replacement transmissions. I’d be rather excited if Acura said, “We have a fix for the clutch slip and quality control problems. Bring in your car for an inspection. If we determine that you transmission is from a suspect build lot, and doesn’t have updated parts to correct the clutch problems, we will install a new transmission with improved quality control and stronger clutch packs." (Hey, they can put in the 2nd gear sprayer too if they like.)

For those owners that trashed their 2nd gear, I think they are on the road to recovery. The TBS is clear about this and if it isn't -- well, Acura can go back to the drawing board. At least they can inspect the gear. Perhaps it would be nice to add an additional inspection to cars that get the mod to see if it actually works.

Analogy: If Acura issued a "transmission recall" that replaced a reverse solenoid that might cause an accident because they got a bad batch of them and the TBS says, "Recall authorized to correct possible problem," is everyone here going to just start saying "Recall == good." We've finally won! Hurray!

I've been as hopeful as anyone about getting a real beefed up transmission. I’ve also gone to bat with the NHTSA and the LA Times to let them know that people were really having a problem (others did too – so lets me clear about this.) And, the bulk of the failures and the bulk of the docs related to the CLS failures have been related to the clutch packs.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THIS RECALL THAT IS GOING TO HELP THE CLUTCH PROBLEMS -- PERIOD!

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET A NEW TRANSMISSION FOR YOUR CLS IF YOUR SECOND GEAR IS OK.

YOU WILL GET A TRANSMISSION IF YOUR CLUTCH PACKS ARE TRASHED -- AND THIS IS JUST AS IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN. NO CHANGE. REPEAT -- NO CHANGE.

You are STILL going to have to take in your slipping tranny to get it fixed. They are not saying, “we are going to replace the early 01 transmission if we think the clutches are screwed up.” Perhaps they plan on doing this; however, they are not doing this right now. The recall has nothing to due with the problem -- period!

There are many people that have been injured as a result of the fifth to second spontaneous downshift. This was NOT a result of the second gear. SO TELL ME HOW THIS HELPS the biggest problem that CL owners are having?.

IOW, nothing has changed except:

You get to take the car in and have them look at second gear. They do their thing, depending on mileage.

Now, if you clutch packs are 0.5mm shy of failing, you still get to drive away. They are going to do some inspection to look inside the clutch packs *or* even check the contents of a new fliter that they add to look for clutch particles. The clutch packs are still screwed up and Acura still seems to have trouble getting people replacment trannies that aren't worse than the originals.

And, when you get your replacement transmission, be sure to REQUEST A NEW -- NOT rebuilt tranny. And, even if you ask for it, you will still have the chance of getting a transmission that is still not sorted out. This is still the same.

-- NOTHING HAS CHANGED IF YOU AREN'T HAVING 2nd GEAR TOOTH PROBLEMS --


BTW, if anyone thinks that a 2nd gear oil jet is going to cool down the 3rd gear clutch packs -- or even the 2ng gear clutch packs, please explain their reasoning. There is a flood of ATF that is moving through the clutch packs and it gets into DIRECT contact with the clutch disks and carries away the heat caused by the friction during the shift transitions. The oil squirter is squirting the outside of a different gear and will do very little. The squirter is like the piston squirters in an engine's block, and saying this will correct an oil flow/temp problem that is tearing up crankshaft bearings is similar to the transmission analogy. A bit more oil will fall on the crankshaft, but its impact on a crankshaft's bearings reliablity would be minimal.

 

well that sucks.


btw, my 1st transmission was replaced because of a badly slipping 3rd gear.



so if they're spending 63 million to put another weak band-aid on the problem, how much would it cost to fix it the correct way?

 

Yes it does...

I'm not going to give any credit to Acura for covering their collective butts *and* NOT helping us with a serious and ongoing problem.

And, your guess is as good as mine about total cost for a new CLS transmission that has new friction material *or* more clutch disks in each gear *or* and electronic throttle kit that slams the throttle shut on each gear shift to allow for zero load on the clutch disks -- and so on.

Clutch disks: perhaps some like these would be a start:



link: http://virtualindian.org/4newsclutch.htm

I keep hearing about this "beefed-up" tranny that someone is making. So, what's the change?

What about ceramic material? What about carbon?


If they could fit more clutch disks into the clutch pack, and increase the fluid flow, and add a tranny cooler, that would be a start. Hopefully, the clutch disks would be from some high tech material that wouldn't fall apart. It would also be nice to have them alter the T-fitting, etc to allow a big filter that is easy to replace for the transmission. Perhaps if they had easy access to the filter and could send filter units back to the factory to allow them to check for ALL of the junk floating around in the system.

I don't know what they are going to do for us, since they now have the '04 TLs to move. Can't just explain away those problems with a 7yr/100k warranty -- and hope the earlier cars just "go away" with time. The newer TL has the electronic throttle to keep drop the load on the clutch disks during transitions.

I still think about the percent heat loss in the tranny. Add in a conversion to BTUs, and even with the heat transter from the case (by convection and radiator), and by conduction to the engine, they still are working with a pretty feeble intercooler to dump 10-20% of 300 HP. 30-60 HP of energy as heat is equivalent to 22- to 44-Kilowatts of heat energy.

You could cool or heat a good sized home with that amount of power. Tell me its ok to run that through a beer-can sized cooler.

Note: it's probably a bit less due to the problems with inertia, viscous losses, and other issues that related to conversion between a engine brake dyno and an inertial dyno, but there is still a lot of energy getting sucked up in that unit at WOT. And, the energy is neither created nor destroyed. It is being wasted as: heat, sound, light, whatever, and I don't see much light coming off it, and I don't hear that much sound coming off it when its working right.

BTW, an average 10,000 BTU air conditioner uses about 1KW of power. Think about running 20 of them...

Finally, if you aren't going to fix a problem through clever design, then they need to consider "brute-force" and they don't exactly make a ton of V8 transmission that take a huge amount of torque. I'm sure not familiar with any; so, much for that. And, it's interesting that they just limited the power on the NSX motors when used with the automatics. Hmmm... interesting -- hey?

 

wow that sux......well hopefully it keeps people safe

 

damn you, Eric, you ruined my good mood!

 

it seems that this isn't a complete fix for the trans problems. it looks like the same fix that was applied to the MDX/Pilots & Odessy transmissions in a recent honda sevice campaign. several owners of these problems weren't at all happy with the "inspection" & resulting "no problem found" diagnosis.

i think the only positive that can come out of this is that american honda is still addressing the problem. perhaps in time they will have it completely sorted out. until then you'll still have to suffer with the constant concern over trans failures and the inconvenience of waiting on replacements. bummer.

please keep in mind that honda/acura probably had nothing to do with the design of the trans. its most likely a sub-contractor who performed the design. the sub is also working on the fixes. at the subs expense. i'm also quite sure that the sub is bearing most, if not all, of the costs associated with replacing the failed units. not that this means much to you. just that honda/acura is waiting on the sub to sort out the problems and recommend fixes. since the 03-04 accords and the 04 TLs still suffer trans problems means honda hasn't dropped this supplier. yet. should honda drop the supplier that's when the trans problems will become a more significant problem for owners of affected transmissions.

 

It is true, and the problem extends into the 7th gen 5-speed AT V6 Accord.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Honda expands U.S. auto recall for transmission flaw


Bloomberg News

Honda Motor Co. is widening a recall of vehicles in the U.S. and Canada to 1.14 million units, among its largest, covering Accord and Acura cars that have the same transmission fault that triggered a light-truck recall this year.

Japan’s third-largest automaker is voluntarily recalling 536,950 vehicles, with V-6 engines and 5-speed automatic transmissions, in addition to those already announced in April. The company is also recalling 79,531 units in Japan to fix faulty transmissions and fuel tanks, starting tomorrow.

The inspections and repairs will cost Honda about $63 million, in addition to the $153 million being spent on the light- truck portion of the recall, spokesman Andy Boyd said. In Japan, Honda is spending about $8.5 million on its recall.

Honda was runner-up to Toyota Motor Co.p. in an annual reliability study of three-year-old cars and trucks by J.D. Power & Associates in the U.S. Honda, Toyota and Nissan Motor Co., benefited from consumer perceptions that they build better vehicles to increase their U.S. market share to 24.1 percent last year from 22.2 percent, according to Autodata Corp.

Honda’s North American recall includes 2003- and 2004-model Accords, 2000- through early 2004-model Acura TL sedans, and 2001- through 2003-model Acura CLs, Boyd said. In April, the company recalled 600,000 U.S. and Canadian Odyssey minivans, and Pilot and Acura MDX sport-utility vehicles with the same transmission.

Shares of Honda, which ranks fifth in U.S. sales, fell 0.6 percent to 5,260 yen in Tokyo.

Japanese Recall

The Japanese recall covers 68,000 vehicles with gearbox defects, including Odyssey and Lagreat minivans. The Tokyo-based carmaker will also take back 11,531 Inspire sedans with faulty fuel pumps, spokesman Kazuhiro Suda said. There have been no accidents reported in Japan, the company said in a statement.

The problem results from insufficient lubrication of a transmission shaft that can overheat, potentially damaging gear teeth or causing the gears to break, Honda said in a statement.

The U.S. unit of Tokyo-based Honda has had only one reported incident of a transmission failing in the car models recalled and no reported accidents or injuries, Boyd said.

“We are acting out of an abundance of caution to ensure that this doesn’t become an issue for our customers,” Tom Elliot, Honda’s U.S. executive vice president, said in a statement. Customers will be notified by letter starting mid-July.

In most cases, the gears will be inspected and the flow of transmission fluid will be modified, Honda said. If damage from insufficient lubrication is found, the transmission will be replaced, the company said. Recall repairs typically are paid for out of reserves set aside for that purpose.

The Accord is Honda’s best-selling model, with annual sales in the U.S. and Canada exceeding 400,000.

 

Anther link and article,
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1000?m...39497&mime=asc

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
American Honda Expands Voluntary Transmission Recall to Certain Honda and Acura Automobiles

Torrance, Calif. 06/29/2004 -- American Honda Motor Co., Inc. today announced that it will expand its existing voluntary recall of light truck models for a potential transmission defect to include certain Honda and Acura passenger cars. The voluntary action involves approximately 499,000 Honda and Acura passenger vehicles with V6 engines and 5-speed automatic transmissions. Affected models include certain 2003 and early 2004 model Accord V6 sedans and coupes, 2000-2003 and early 2004 Acura TL sedans, and 2001-2003 Acura CL coupes.

The company has found only one confirmed instance of a transmission failure related to this defect in its passenger cars, with no accidents or injuries. "We are acting out of an abundance of caution to ensure that this doesn't become an issue for our customers,'" said Tom Elliott, executive vice president of American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

The situation is created by insufficient lubrication of the transmission's secondary shaft second gear that can occur under certain driving conditions. Prolonged operation under these conditions can lead to heat build-up and under certain circumstances may eventually result in chipped or broken gear teeth or breakage of the gear. In the event of a chipped or broken tooth, the owner will likely experience abnormal noise from the transmission and seek repairs. In rare instances, this condition may lead to gear breakage and possible locking of the vehicle's transmission, creating a potential safety hazard.

Owners of affected vehicles will be contacted via mail and will be asked to take their vehicle to an authorized Honda or Acura dealer to be repaired free of charge. Customer mailings will begin in late July. In most cases, the repair involves a simple gear inspection, which is accomplished without removing or disassembling the transmission, and a modification to increase the flow of transmission fluid to the affected gear. If there is any indication of damage to the gear, the dealer will replace the complete transmission assembly. Customers concerned about the condition of their vehicle may visit Honda's Ownerlink website at www.ahm-ownerlink.com. Customers may also contact their local Honda or Acura dealer or call Honda customer service at 1-800-999-1009 or Acura customer service at 1-800-382-2238.

Editor's note: This information is being released in conjunction with an announcement concerning a related recall action for Honda models in Japan.

 

( hey EricL)I follow your failure falt tree thinking ,,, I just have a "feeling" that Honda has in-fact made design corrections in the new trans,,, the only way I can know for sure is see the detailed ECN's (Engineeering Change Notice) for this part number or familys of trans. Only Honda can release this info, similar to the failure analysis they submitted to NTSA. The detail of this report proves they have competent Reliability Engineers. Now I would believe that cost and marketing has gotten in the way of engineering. all IMO... Will the fix work ??? Yes it will last you until the warrenty ends,, I know BS...

 

"The detail of this report proves they have competent Reliability Engineers"

IMO, if you can't see what's wrong with the reasoning in that statement, all is lost.

 

I'll admit I'm a newb when it comes to inner car mechanics, but wouldn't improving the flow of ATF and thus reducing heat and friction decrease the risk of the transmission failing? Again don't hate if that's a stupid comment. It just seems simple to me, unless clutch packs disintegrating and gears breaking are completely unrelated by the heat buildup/stress buildup.

 

The problem is not dissipating the heat, it's the generation of the heat to begin with.

 

Come on, this problem has been known to both Honda and unfortunate buyers since probably 2000 when the 2nd gen CL came out, or before that when the 2000 TL came out.
Let's get real, this is a stonewalling cost issue for Honda. IMO it has NOT been approached as a customer service 'opportunity' by Honda. far from it.
If they can't fix the tranny in, what, 3 or 4 years now, they never will. They are taking the cheap way out and playing the numbers game. Most will not have the problem, but the problem is real and their 'fix' does not fix it.That's my opinion, and the facts seem to bear it out.
If they went back with the same supplier for the 04 Accord and TL then I have lost some trust in Honda, and I have been a HondAcura buyer for 15 years. I think they might just be covering their 04 Accord and TL a** now with the new models.
Luckily I mostly buy self-shifters. If Honda's trannies can't do it, I'll do it myself, thank you!
Maybe they should start using GM trannies. Marysville Ohio is not that far from Detroit...

 

1st ,, nice colors and font

2nd ,, the jest of my ramblings was defending the Honda engineers and blaming the lack of corrective actions on management.... they know how to fix the trans,, unfortunately field failures are the most important but almost impossible to get a fix in place due to production runs and next build designs.. read TO HIGH $$$$ ...

3rd ,, I just got of the phone and ordered new air bags for $1600,,, that's another story, but I told them I had a CL_S with 70 k miles and they asked how many transmissions have I had put in. Hummmmmmmmm

4th ,, we all have to live with this screw up and I too hope for a better design.. and I still like my car...

 

That's the bottom line, we're going to have to deal with the tranny issue for as long as we own the car. HoA will unlikely ever completely resolve the situation, just cover their ass. I like my car and plan to drive the hell out of it until the the extended warranty runs out. After that, no more Hondas/Acuras for me.

 

Sorry to say, in this case no. I'm referring to the clutch packs.

The ATF is used to pressurize and squeeze the disks together. The same fluid is used to carry out the heat. The fluid is in direct contact to the friction material.

To give you an idea for comparison purposed. The fluid INSIDE the clutch packs is in direct contact with the ATF and has NO heat barrier/insulation between it and the ATF. The heat on the disk is transferred to the fluid -- and there is no intervening metal. Steel is not exactly the best conductor of heat. The heat that is being produced in the clutch pack need to be removed "RIGHT NOW." If you get too little flow, you get enough of a heat rise to actually fry the clutch packs – and the ATF in the vicinity. Acura clearly showed how the lack of clearance due to quality control problems caused a direct correlation between burnt clutch faces and extremely high temperature rises.

If you take a piece of friction material on a lightweight piece of steel or other similar material, you can cool it down rather quickly with water (or with ATF). The total heat capacity of the disk is minimal, so the heat can be removed be direct contact with ATF (or other fluid). The thermal mass is very small when compared to the actual gear body.

Now, imagine the clutch disks -- there are a stack of them; they are contained inside a relatively thick hollowed-out gear. If you cut off the flow of ATF, and just sealed the cavity, and tried to cool the clutch packs with some kind of spray on the outside of the gear, you would have fried clutch packs within minutes. IOW, the amount of heat removed from the clutch packs by the ATF spray on the outside of the gear is minimal. It would be considered a second order effect.

Here are some heat flow diagrams

Clutch disk heat -- > ATF -> heat exchanger. (One path is direct; the fluid is in contact with the fluid.)

Clutch disk heat -- > ATF -> inside of gear body -> thermal resistance of the gear body -> outside of gear body --> ATF being sprayed. (You have to decide that the ATF will transfer a bit less heat due to the higher temp of the gear, but the difference is negligible. We're talking water pistol vs. fire hose.

If the ATF evaporated, exactly like water, the heat of evaporation (phase change) could remove a huge amount of heat on the gear.. But, even with that situation, you would have to account for the thermal inertia of the gear. Take a lump of steel, heat it up. Tell me how long it takes to heat it up -- and also cool it down. Ever see the carbon-carbon brake disks or the heat tiles on the shuttle? They heat up quickly and cool down quickly. This is similar to a clutch disk -- they heat up quickly and cool down quickly when in contact with a high pressure flow of ATF. (Unfortunately, the clutch disks are not made up of carbon material ) Now take a chunk or iron or steel. It will take a while to heat up, and a while to cool down. Its conductivity is not that great. Ever notice that the bottom of a top-quality stainless steel pan has copper on the bottom to spread the heat out; the copper conducts heat much better.

And, if the gear teeth are not getting sufficient lube, they could be failing simply because they do not have sufficient lubrication to prevent metal-to-metal contact (No one excluded that as a contributing factor – did they?). So, if someone decided that a sensor on the outside of the box was getting a bit to warm to function well, and a water line was added with a corresponding cooling jacket, should I opine about how the transmission should get rid of its heat much better *or* that it could hurt? Need I continue?


Here is my final analogy: you have some brakes that should be big enough to stop the car. You have a ton of air cooling down the body of the car. However, you don't have brake ducts direct air directly to the brake rotors, pads, calipers, and parts that are being heated. If you are moving through a ton of air, you are cooling down any excess heat on the car's body. (You are probably saying this is a ridiculous and extreme example. Yes, it is. I'm doing this on purpose). The brakes are transferring heat by conduction to the wheels, wheel bearings, suspension, and eventually to the body of the car. Each part has a particular heat capacity, and a particular thermal resistivity (the ability to move heat at a certain rate per unit time). (I’m not mentioning convection, forced cooling, and radiative heat issues.)

So, if you have a ton of freezing cold air over the car, why do some brakes boil the fluid and glow red if the body is being exposed to freezing air? The heat is taking a very long and "narrow" route to get to the brakes (the total aggregate thermal resistance is so high that it takes too long to move heat over a short period of time); it can't get rid of the amount of heat being generated PER UNIT TIME. IF enough time were given, the body will help to cool down the brakes, but the bulk of the cooling is coming from the DIRECT CONTACT OF AIR TO ROTOR. So, if someone added some different parts to the pieces connected to the brakes on a F1 car, don't be surprised to find that it's considered a second order effect. You want to change the size of the air duct. (I'm neglecting radiative heating.)

Does that make sense?

One of the reasons the transmission cooler will only get you so far is: the ATF will only move so much heat per unit time. And, if you only have a limited amount of ATF to move past those clutch packs PER UNIT TIME, you will still be able to increase the temperature to unacceptable limits irregardless of the ATF’s temperature. (Note: the ATF is going to turn to glue at a low enough temperature and the flow is reduced.)


Final notes:

I don't have an exact profile of the flow rate for every clutch pack. And, there isn't even a complete table or set of data that shows the amount of flow that is available at any given time -- and there are a number of differing states the transmission can be in depending on gear transition, gear selection, engine RPM, road speed, etc. If you didn't change the clutch material, one thing that you would want to consider is: increasing the flow directly to the clutch packs. Since the fluid is used to hold the clutch packs closed, it isn't moving during this phase. However, once the fluid is moving out of the clutch pack, during disengagement, it is taking the heat away (out). I don't have a profile that shows how the flow "continues" after the clutch is disengaged and how the flow is altered with varying parameters (RE: rpm, load, road speed, etc). So, if you want to go to the heart of the problem you:

1. Add more clutch disks.
2. Get more cooling where it needs to be -- right at the clutch disk faces.
3. Reduce the slip during transitions and reduce the very source of heat.
4. Change the friction material and backing plates to something that is more durable during high heat excursions.
5. Increase the flow during transitions and increase the flow to remove latent heat.

Your comment indirectly addresses #5 and I already mentioned the arduous flow path for the heat to take.

 

One fix, people bitch for a recall.
Now a recall, people still bitching...WTF?

You cannot speculate/guess on what ther "recall" fix is...It is TOO SOON to tell now. You cannot tell anything from those paragraphs...those are written by English/Communication majors trying to give a big pictures to the uneducated (automotive) masses out there. You need more concrete evidence of what the actual fix is to tell if it is the cure or not.

Unless you are a designing engineer working for Honda/Acura, nobody knows for sure now....just shut up and wait to find out.

 

IMO, you seem to be the biggest speculator around here.

So, clamp it.

I'll be thrilled if and when Acura tells the owners that they are fixing the clutch packs. Sit around and listen to the transmission problems and talk to some pretty smart people for a few years about the problems and then do some talking.

The current scope seems to be rather clear about what’s getting fixed. It clearly states that the second gear shaft and gear can have chipping problems.

And, then there is this. Feel free to call this speculation:

LINK to MDX fix (2nd gear squirter, 2nd gear, etc).

I found this posted by "Dan" in the recall link in the main forum and had an interesting discussion late today (it wasn't with Dan)...

http://www.smokinsales.com/HApdfs/a04-021.pdf



If they decide to EXTEND the scope of the transmission, and this is clearly NOT in the cards as of this minute, oh happy days. As for the current recall, I stand by my statements regarding the lack of a clutch pack robustness, quality control issues, and other matters.

If you’d like to share – fine. But, I think you should shut up, if you are just going to tell people with some interesting info to shut up.

BTW, if they offered a fix for a speedo cable and issued a recall, would you still tell people to stop bitching? Think man – think.

BTWII, there hasn’t been only one fix. There have been many. I’ve already said this a billion times. It’s not my fault that you’re too lazy to read up and want to dump here.

 

Eric, stop posting unless its enthusiastic news

 

Man, I love to get all this great knowledge since my expertise is in computers and not cars, but damn haha it is kinda depressing.

 

Well .. Eric is right .. this recall is bogus .. just because there is a recall does NOT mean you are getting a rebuild of a rebuilt tranny! Honda has claimed that there is no way could determine if a tranny was going to fail because of the clutch pack issue .. but changing out the solenoids would fix those that where shifting poorly .. opps .. still failing ... then Honda claims .. we still can't identify which will fail, but we have an clutch tollerance issue .. so replace the obviously failing ones with a rebuild .. opps .. still failing ... Honda claims that they have a lubricant issue .. so replace the obviously failing ones with another rebuild of a rebuilt unit .. opps .. STILL failing .. Honda claims that they have a programming issue .. so replace the ECU's on those that have rebuilt tranny's ... still failing ...

And NOW ..Honda claims that they have yet a different problem that warrants an inspection .. give me a break .. they are band-aiding this thing ... in 6 months there will be another problem with it that will require bubble gum on some du-dad ...

Glad I dumped my 02 for an 03-CLS6