Swapping RL 3.5 parts better than MDX parts?
10-18-2004, 06:11 PM
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Three Wheelin'
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Swapping RL 3.5 parts better than MDX parts?
My mechanic and I have been kicking around the idea of doing the 3.5L swap and I was wondering if the parts for the new 3.5L in the RL would be better than those of the MDX, it they are the same or if they are not interchangable.
The RL makes peak power at 6200rpm compared to 5800 for the MDX.
What are the differences and would the RL parts work as well or better than the MDX parts?
The RL makes peak power at 6200rpm compared to 5800 for the MDX.
What are the differences and would the RL parts work as well or better than the MDX parts?
10-18-2004, 07:20 PM
#2
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in my understanding we use the MDX block. pistons need to be custom, heads and rods are i believe the stock type s parts.
im not sure how much different the RL block opposed to the MDX block would be. after all, they're both J series 3.5 blocks, and its not the block size that determines peak power points on the powerband.
im going to do this mod very soon, im just looking for a cheap, used MDX block (new one is $1400, a little too much for me)
-rez
im not sure how much different the RL block opposed to the MDX block would be. after all, they're both J series 3.5 blocks, and its not the block size that determines peak power points on the powerband.
im going to do this mod very soon, im just looking for a cheap, used MDX block (new one is $1400, a little too much for me)
-rez
10-18-2004, 07:28 PM
#3
Bleed Honda Blue
I am pretty sure the RL 3.5L block will not fit in our car without serious mods. You should consider motor mounts, cylinder head and trans fitment. Why do you want a RL block? humm I guess you want to loose HP and torque! 
10-18-2004, 07:45 PM
#4
'Big Daddy Diggler'
Originally Posted by sgmotoring
I am pretty sure the RL 3.5L block will not fit in our car without serious mods. You should consider motor mounts, cylinder head and trans fitment. Why do you want a RL block? humm I guess you want to loose HP and torque!
10-18-2004, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bigman
You must have never seen the 3.5 hybrid Type S's running mid 13's all motor on a 3.5 bottom end.
You must not know that he has a supercharged 3.5L
10-18-2004, 09:36 PM
#6
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the new RL 3.5 is a J series and would be a direct fitememnt more than likely...and the best choice for the stroker...however it's not the block at all that's needed it's the crank and pistons and rods...with that in mind i have a slightly used J32A2 block for sale with new bearing on the crank ...the 2 center pistons and rings would need to be replaced...but since one might be putting in the RL crank piston and rod set that wouldnt matter much... 500 + ship p.s. the pistons can more than likely be used id say you just need the RL rods ...but alittle more investigating would be needed to know that for sure...any acura parts guys available?
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10-18-2004, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by typeR
the new RL 3.5 is a J series and would be a direct fitememnt more than likely...and the best choice for the stroker...however it's not the block at all that's needed it's the crank and pistons and rods...
Correct. So, would the rods, pistons etc. from the new RL engine be superior to those of the MDX for a swap or is the extra power made from the cams and VTEC profile only?
10-18-2004, 10:03 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by JZ
Correct. So, would the rods, pistons etc. from the new RL engine be superior to those of the MDX for a swap or is the extra power made from the cams and VTEC profile only?
10-18-2004, 10:15 PM
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I could've sworn I remembered reading somewhere that people were using the honda odyssey minivan for the 3.5L swap also?
typer .. what did they use for your swap? what parts were changed?
typer .. what did they use for your swap? what parts were changed?
10-18-2004, 11:41 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by blader
I could've sworn I remembered reading somewhere that people were using the honda odyssey minivan for the 3.5L swap also?
typer .. what did they use for your swap? what parts were changed?
typer .. what did they use for your swap? what parts were changed?
10-19-2004, 11:44 AM
#15
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So, does anyone know yet whether the RL engine is simply the MDX engine with a different VTEC or cam profile or if the internals are different that would make for a better swap?
10-19-2004, 02:44 PM
#16
Blown is Best
I think the preferred method is to use a MDX or Odyessey block and top end off of the Type S. As others have mentioned, compression is high unless you use different rods or pistons. Dean at Speed Distributors can build one up for you. If you want to do yourself, I think he has a source for thick head gaskets to lower compression to a livable level.
10-19-2004, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Allout
I think the preferred method is to use a MDX or Odyessey block and top end off of the Type S. As others have mentioned, compression is high unless you use different rods or pistons. Dean at Speed Distributors can build one up for you. If you want to do yourself, I think he has a source for thick head gaskets to lower compression to a livable level.
I guess I am not making my question clear.
I understand about using the MDX block--
my question re-stated is......drumroll please.......does anyone know if the RODS and PISTONS, or anything else for that matter, would be BETTER for this swap coming from the new RL than the aforementioned parts from the MDX undertanding that the RL produces higher horsepower at higher RPMs than the MDX.
10-19-2004, 08:45 PM
#18
Blown is Best
I kind of doubt that anyone around here has had their hands on the internals of the new RL motor let alone done an analysis of the difference in parts.
10-19-2004, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JZ
I guess I am not making my question clear.
I understand about using the MDX block--
my question re-stated is......drumroll please.......does anyone know if the RODS and PISTONS, or anything else for that matter, would be BETTER for this swap coming from the new RL than the aforementioned parts from the MDX undertanding that the RL produces higher horsepower at higher RPMs than the MDX.
I understand about using the MDX block--
my question re-stated is......drumroll please.......does anyone know if the RODS and PISTONS, or anything else for that matter, would be BETTER for this swap coming from the new RL than the aforementioned parts from the MDX undertanding that the RL produces higher horsepower at higher RPMs than the MDX.
You'll need custom pistions to keep your compression ratio safe
10-19-2004, 08:50 PM
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Regarding the 2005 RL's engine compared to the MDX, this is what Honda officially has to say:
The 60-degree aluminum-alloy 3.5-liter V-6 of the RL features architecture that's related to that of the powerplant in the 2004 MDX. Few parts are shared between the two engines, however; comprehensive changes give the RL powerplant an entirely different character than that of the MDX.
The forged crankshaft of the RL is similar to that of the MDX, but with revised counterweights to accommodate the weight of higher compression pistons. With their taller, reinforced crowns, these new pistons raise the compression ratio (relative to the MDX) from 10.0:1 to 11.0:1. The previous generation 3.5 RL had a compression ratio of 9.6:1. The elevated compression ratio is a key element in the horsepower gain compared to the previous generation engine. Part of the reason this elevated compression ratio is possible is an oil jet system that sprays cooling oil on the underside of the piston crowns to keep temperatures in check. New steel connecting rods are forged in one piece and then the crankshaft ends are broken , creating a lighter and stronger rod with a perfectly fitted bearing cap.
Like the MDX and the TL, the RL uses cast alloy single overhead camshaft cylinder heads that incorporate tuned exhaust manifolds as an integral part of the casting. Made of pressure-cast, low-porosity aluminum, these lightweight components improve overall packaging, enhance exhaust flow and allow the optimal positioning of a primary close-coupled catalytic converter on each cylinder bank. To ensure positive sealing, the RL has a three-layer type head gasket like that of the MDX, TL and NSX. A single Aramid-fiber reinforced belt drives the overhead camshafts. The RL cylinder heads have 36mm diameter intake valves and 30mm diameter exhaust valves. As a point of reference, the MDX has 35mm intake and 30mm exhaust valves.
Acura VTEC(TM) (Variable Timing and Lift Electronic Control) is a new addition to the RL, and is a major contributor to the engine's large gains in horsepower and torque. The system operates the 12 intake valves in two distinct modes, so that the operation of the intake valves changes to optimize both volumetric efficiency and combustion of the fuel-air mixture. At low engine speeds, the intake valves have low lift and are open a comparatively short period of time during cylinder filling. At high engine speeds where breathing is critical, the valves switch to high-lift, long duration mode to deliver the best volumetric efficiency. The VTEC(TM) changeover point is undetectable to the driver and occurs at 4950 rpm.
The RL uses a 3-rocker VTEC(TM) system similar to that of the MDX and TL. This configuration allows each of a given cylinder's intake valves to be controlled by its own low-speed cam lobe, allowing for staggered valve opening and lift. (By comparison, with 2-rocker VTEC, a single low-speed cam lobe controls both intake valves for each cylinder).
Better mixing in the cylinders improves both combustion speed and combustion stability. When the engine reaches 4950 rpm, the powertrain control module (PCM) triggers the opening of an electric spool valve that routes pressurized oil to small pistons in the intake valve rocker arms. These pistons slide into position to lock together the three intake rockers in a given cylinder, which then follow a single high-lift, long-duration cam lobe. The intake and exhaust valve timing and duration is unique to the RL.
The 2005 RL uses a new dual-stage intake manifold that is designed to deliver maximum airflow, and accounts for 15 percent of the horsepower (out of 75 horsepower total) gained over the previous-generation 3.5 RL. The 2-piece cast-aluminum manifold is also very light. Compared to the one-piece, dual-stage unit used on the MDX, the RL manifold saves 2.6 lb.
The 60-degree aluminum-alloy 3.5-liter V-6 of the RL features architecture that's related to that of the powerplant in the 2004 MDX. Few parts are shared between the two engines, however; comprehensive changes give the RL powerplant an entirely different character than that of the MDX.
The forged crankshaft of the RL is similar to that of the MDX, but with revised counterweights to accommodate the weight of higher compression pistons. With their taller, reinforced crowns, these new pistons raise the compression ratio (relative to the MDX) from 10.0:1 to 11.0:1. The previous generation 3.5 RL had a compression ratio of 9.6:1. The elevated compression ratio is a key element in the horsepower gain compared to the previous generation engine. Part of the reason this elevated compression ratio is possible is an oil jet system that sprays cooling oil on the underside of the piston crowns to keep temperatures in check. New steel connecting rods are forged in one piece and then the crankshaft ends are broken , creating a lighter and stronger rod with a perfectly fitted bearing cap.
Like the MDX and the TL, the RL uses cast alloy single overhead camshaft cylinder heads that incorporate tuned exhaust manifolds as an integral part of the casting. Made of pressure-cast, low-porosity aluminum, these lightweight components improve overall packaging, enhance exhaust flow and allow the optimal positioning of a primary close-coupled catalytic converter on each cylinder bank. To ensure positive sealing, the RL has a three-layer type head gasket like that of the MDX, TL and NSX. A single Aramid-fiber reinforced belt drives the overhead camshafts. The RL cylinder heads have 36mm diameter intake valves and 30mm diameter exhaust valves. As a point of reference, the MDX has 35mm intake and 30mm exhaust valves.
Acura VTEC(TM) (Variable Timing and Lift Electronic Control) is a new addition to the RL, and is a major contributor to the engine's large gains in horsepower and torque. The system operates the 12 intake valves in two distinct modes, so that the operation of the intake valves changes to optimize both volumetric efficiency and combustion of the fuel-air mixture. At low engine speeds, the intake valves have low lift and are open a comparatively short period of time during cylinder filling. At high engine speeds where breathing is critical, the valves switch to high-lift, long duration mode to deliver the best volumetric efficiency. The VTEC(TM) changeover point is undetectable to the driver and occurs at 4950 rpm.
The RL uses a 3-rocker VTEC(TM) system similar to that of the MDX and TL. This configuration allows each of a given cylinder's intake valves to be controlled by its own low-speed cam lobe, allowing for staggered valve opening and lift. (By comparison, with 2-rocker VTEC, a single low-speed cam lobe controls both intake valves for each cylinder).
Better mixing in the cylinders improves both combustion speed and combustion stability. When the engine reaches 4950 rpm, the powertrain control module (PCM) triggers the opening of an electric spool valve that routes pressurized oil to small pistons in the intake valve rocker arms. These pistons slide into position to lock together the three intake rockers in a given cylinder, which then follow a single high-lift, long-duration cam lobe. The intake and exhaust valve timing and duration is unique to the RL.
The 2005 RL uses a new dual-stage intake manifold that is designed to deliver maximum airflow, and accounts for 15 percent of the horsepower (out of 75 horsepower total) gained over the previous-generation 3.5 RL. The 2-piece cast-aluminum manifold is also very light. Compared to the one-piece, dual-stage unit used on the MDX, the RL manifold saves 2.6 lb.
10-19-2004, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mrsteve
Sounds like a revised MDX block with revised Type-S top half of the engine (heads, dual stage intake manifold ala Type-S)
10-19-2004, 11:36 PM
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had the shocker of my life
I just wanted to add a comment.... The best time i have ever run at the track was a 14.25 i have a cls6speed..... One night doing street racing around where i live i pulled up on a TL type s with 18inch rims on it... I thought to myself I am going to smoke this guy he does not even have exaust .... hahahah well little did I know that this guy out of 4 races beat me 2 times!!! So we pulled over and I talked to him about his car he told me that he had sent the motor down to Florida and got the bottom half of the MDX motor swapped on his car... this guy took me off the line twice and that was both times that he beat me.. I am a true beliver in the MDX swap with out a doubt.
10-20-2004, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 03cls6speed
I just wanted to add a comment.... The best time i have ever run at the track was a 14.25 i have a cls6speed..... One night doing street racing around where i live i pulled up on a TL type s with 18inch rims on it... I thought to myself I am going to smoke this guy he does not even have exaust .... hahahah well little did I know that this guy out of 4 races beat me 2 times!!! So we pulled over and I talked to him about his car he told me that he had sent the motor down to Florida and got the bottom half of the MDX motor swapped on his car... this guy took me off the line twice and that was both times that he beat me.. I am a true beliver in the MDX swap with out a doubt.
It was DEAD even in spite of my mods. He had a 3.5 swap as well and I bet he could have done better with some more work.
For what its worth, I've got 202 whp and have a 14.8 quarter mile. Not bad for a 4 speed auto
10-20-2004, 10:06 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
Yeah, went up against an '00 TL in my '97.
It was DEAD even in spite of my mods. He had a 3.5 swap as well and I bet he could have done better with some more work.
For what its worth, I've got 202 whp and have a 14.8 quarter mile. Not bad for a 4 speed auto
It was DEAD even in spite of my mods. He had a 3.5 swap as well and I bet he could have done better with some more work.
For what its worth, I've got 202 whp and have a 14.8 quarter mile. Not bad for a 4 speed auto
10-20-2004, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by typeR
doesnt sound right...do you know for sure he has a 3.5 atleast on the boards this is very rare...i think there are 3 that we know of
FYI, I own an '03 TL myself.
10-20-2004, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by typeR
doesnt sound right...do you know for sure he has a 3.5 atleast on the boards this is very rare...i think there are 3 that we know of
We do have alot of lurkers though
10-20-2004, 04:21 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
Quite sure. Looked more like an Odyssey engine.
FYI, I own an '03 TL myself.
FYI, I own an '03 TL myself.
10-20-2004, 04:23 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by mrsteve
He thought I was talking about him (typeR) not sgmotoring who infact has the supercharged 3.5LOWNED :ghey:
10-20-2004, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by typeR
an oddessey engine and a TL engine look exactly ALIKE...THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME EXTERNAL DIMENSIONS...its the internals that differ only alittle...
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