spiroh

http://www.bottlefedracing.com/ourcars/1998honda.htm

click on the denso iridium plugs. They dyno tested the plugs and gained almost 7hp. I dont know what plugs they were using before hand.

NOVAwhiteTypeS

OMG!!! you acutally got the mugen exhaust!! can you post some pics.

spiroh

Im still waiting for it to come in. When I do get it I will dyno test it. take pics, and record the sound =)

Spiro

Zapata

where did you get it from?

Infamuz

Yo SPiro, did you install your pulleys yet?

BNut

I wouldn't believe them...

After all, its impossible for a V6 Accord to gain 7ft/lbs of torque from just adding spark plugs.

Remember this graph? Run 22(Iridium) vs Run 20 (30k mile stock plugs)

spiroh

No, they are back ordered!! I cant wait to put them on though.
Spiro

Infamuz

Im getting my pulleys installed on Monday. Im probably going to install the power steering and not the alterntor one due to my system.

spiroh

Even though I have a system, I'm still installing the alternator pulley. I think a lot of this worrying is overhyped. I had the pulleys on my Integra with my system, and have had no probs.

Infamuz

Out of the 2 pulleys, you get the most benefit from the Power Steering one right? I mean worst comes to worst, I can always put a second battery to my car.

spiroh

You get the most power from the alterrnator. The pulley for the power steering will give you 1-2hp.

BusGradCLS

you cant click on the plugs it is the only one that isnt a link.../?

spiroh

http://www.bottlefedracing.com/image...a_shl-dyno.jpg

technoid

I'm a little about the Denso iridiums. I mean, the dyno on the V6 Accord is legit, right? It's not sci-fi?? Is there anyone out there who has these on their CL who can actually notice a difference in performance?

------------------------------------

2001 3.2 CL-S
NAVI
Satin Silver
-
Comptech Headers
H&R OE Sport Springs
Koni Yellows
Comptech Anti-sways
Neuspeed Upper Strut Tie Bar
-
JL Audio 300/4, 250/1 monoblock
JL Audio 10W6 sub in custom enclosure
Boston Acoustics ProSeries 6.5's
Boston Acoustics RM9's

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: technoid ]

BNut

I'd say 99.99% of the alternator problems were a result of a poor installation job. (Hint Hint, make sure yours are installed correctly)

As far as the alternator pulley I would have your battery and alternator tested at a car parts store that has a tester which measures the voltage and amperage. I had mine tested at AutoZone and when I'm at idle with all my accessories turned off, my alternator is generating about 6-9 amps of additional power. With headlights turned on, my available power drops to 1-2amps... with the AC turned on with the fan on the 2nd position my alternator no longer produced enough power and I was pulling 5-6 amps of power from the BATTERY. This was with my 590 watt stereo turned off, but from what I hear the amps draw a small amount of power even when your head unit is turned off.

When I raised the rpms to 1,250 my available amperage jumped up to 39amps.

Also I would say that 75% to 90% of the power gains come from the alternator pulley, but if nothing else the power steering pulley will at least look nice under the hood.

If you do install the alternator pulley... sitting at idle with your headlights on, AC blasting, stereo cranking, and rear window defroster on might not be a good idea for long periods of time.

spiroh

If you are doing those kinds of things at idle the only thing you would need to do is rev up your car a little bit, and you get the power back.

Spiro

BNut

Exactly, but most people will NOT do that since they don't know or realize that their alternator isn't producing enough power.

They dont find out until they go to start their car one morning and the battery is dead.

Some people will blast their stereo for an hour with the car turned OFF while they are washing/cleaning it.

Like I said, I have had the pulleys installed for about 9 months so far with a 350 watts sub amp and 240 watt stereo amp and I have had zero dead batteries. Typically if I got on a short trip to the grocery store or something, I will hold my rpms at 1,500 for half a minute before I turn the car of so the battery has a chance to charge up from the initial drain of starting the engine.

spiroh

U are the man. I know exactly what you are talking about, thats why I'm not worried about the pulleys.

Spiro

RAdams

Doesn't it stand to reason that if you're installing these pulleys to gain power (and not for aesthetic reasons) that having heavy stereo systems and adding [the weight of] additional batteries to compensate for the alternator being underdriven would more than kill the performance gain the pulleys would give you?

thholr

I have a hard time believeing this claim, maybe testing with ones that were almost dead and then the iridium , but there is no way the iridium plugs give the accord V6 6.9hp at the WHEELS.

spiroh

Thats two separate dynos that shwo the iridium plugs beat out the stock ones. I take Bnuts word. He is a trusted member on this forum. I can understand that the plugs were 30k miles old, but I'm sure some of that hp gain was because of the different plugs.

Spiro

EricL

As I've said about 30 times, I'm sure that the dynos are real and it is a worthy effort.

It would be nice to know what the gain is on a CLS (stock platinum vs. Denso). Don't forget, that depending on a lot of factors, the spark intensity is NOT the only issue that will be of interest. If you notice, the Denso has a thinner conduction area, and attention to heat range is very important. There is a smaller cross section to conduct heat away, and hot areas make for detonation. So, while the slender tip is a great idea with the U-groove for reducing the voltage required to "fire-off" the mixture, there is also issues related to detonation. (BTW -- before someone just suggests going to a colder plug, there is something called "heat-range" that gets involved in this...)

typeR

im told IK-20's for the cl-S is that correct

Nashua_Night_Hawk

More Info here http://www.acura-cl.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c&f=1&t=003298

Ik-20 is good for CL-S.

EricL

That's what is recommended. So, I have a question and some comments.

1. First everybody jumped all over SSMAN, but he knows his shit -- yes/no?

2. He claims to have detonation and added the VTEC early engagement switch to help him reduce timing retardation by the PGM-F1…


So, if it is possible that his TLS is having detonation, just 'cause Denso says the -20 is the correct plug. Is everyone so sure that

1. It is really making more power than a BRAND NEW Platinum plug?

2. That it doesn't exacerbate and timing retard issues in our PGM-F1?


Is the info from the old vs. new comparison done on a TL or Accord good enough to extrapolate to the CLS, when I’ve shown pictures of Platinum vs. Denso that only showed about 1 hp difference? The test was done with new plugs.

BNut

Somebody needs to "Just Do It"!

Buy a NEW set of platinum oem spec NGK's and compare them against the Denso Iridiums.

I live 200 miles from the nearest dyno so its not like I can do it easily.

EricL

Yep -- you nailed it!

technoid

O.K., rocket scientists , this comes DIRECTLY from Denso's web site:

"Q. What kind of performance will I get from this plug?"

"A. Generally, you do not purchase spark plugs for performance enhancement. While DENSO Iridium Power spark plugs have contributed to numerous accomplishments through dyno-testing and actual use, their true benefit lies in their efficiency, durability, and improved firing power. Serious tuners modify their vehicles by increasing boost through turbo-chargers, super-chargers, and Nitrous. They are also known to add high-energy ignition systems, tinker with timing, adjust fuel mixture ratios, and increase horsepower through other means. Putting these kinds of demands on their engine increases the need for an efficient, durable spark plug that can handle these kind of harsh environments. That’s where DENSO Iridium Power can make a major difference."

So, it seems to me that unless you modify your engine to "increase horsepower through some of the other means" described above, then you should NOT expect to gain HP simply by plopping in a set of Denso's. I don't think that my simply adding Comptech headers could create the "harsh environment" where "DENSO Iridium Power can make a major difference" over the OEM plugs.

Comments?

------------------------------------

2001 3.2 CL-S
NAVI
Satin Silver
OEM Spark Plugs
-
Comptech Headers
H&R OE Sport Springs
Koni Yellows
Comptech Anti-sways
Neuspeed Upper Strut Tie Bar
-
JL Audio 300/4 amp
JL Audio 250/1 monoblock amp
JL Audio 10W6 sub in custom enclosure
Boston Acoustics ProSeries 6.5's
Boston Acoustics RM9's

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: technoid ]

magnetic1

Guys... also realize... you can gain 6.9HP at the WHEELs just by running two seperate dyno runs and doing nothing to your car! You could slap a sticker on your car.. make a second run and have a HP gain.. does that mean the sticker gave you a gain? NO!

It is very hard to correlate plugs to HP gain... as there are so many factors involved here. Engine heat, fuel, humidity, etc etc etc.

A colder range plug only helps if you are running high compression, turbo, or SC where the intake air charge temps are really high...

I dont argue that these might be better in terms of a repliable spark.. but that isnt going to equate to 6.9HP

Not to mention they are trying to get you to buy the plugs from THEM:
"Call us on ordering these very impressive plugs. We were skeptics at first so we did our own test. Now we are believers. Contact us on ordering these plugs. "
Just my $0.02

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: magnetic1 ]

EricL

You are basically tracking one of the issues.

Some comments -- just to make things even messier....

On more than one occasion I've had the pleasure to turn one or the other spark plug off in a prop plane -- this is from years ago. You could hear the difference in the engine note when both plugs were running vs. one.

However, they even put two plugs in some very nice engines, and this helps 1) reliability (just like planes) and 2) helps spread out the flame front area (Can you say combustion dynamics?)

So, now your are saying so what -- I'm trying to relate that just kicking up a hotter spark is not the same as having 2 plugs -- this does help with a bit of HP, but it does really help with a steady idle and cruise. (Sound familiar from the Denso Literature.) They make it sound like the U-Groove is going to give you more sparks…

Now, we also are lucky enough to have coil-over-plug ignition. Unlike the poor folks who have to fight with nasty spark plug wires and distributors, we have some nice toroid coils that develop very fast rise-time sparks that are nice and hot. The plugs and coils were designed together and are leading edge.

In the past, I had older cars with high compression that lived on MSD multi-spark ignitions and had a constant fight to figure out the best distributor cap (from other model cars) and always came back to the stock wires. I did like the NGK copper plugs, even though they were in a German car (BIMMER) and I had to change them ever 6K miles for best performance.

The spark plug firing is NOT the only thing of importance going on in a combustion chamber. The actual tip of the plug needs to be hot, but not too hot. There is a term called heat-range, and some people forget (or never knew) that the term doesn't just refer to how cold or hot the plug is. The heat range is different for different plugs. Manufacturers don't give this info out at a drop of a hat. Different types of plugs (different materials, and constructions) change the "width" of the heat range and the amount of heat that the tip and electrode are able to "sink". With this in mind, I would hope that some people would realize that some very carefully run tests would really be important.

In fact, testing the Denso Iridium’s would probably be done justice by having 3 or more runs before and after they were replaced for the stock (and new) Platinum plugs. It would also be important to have some lousy fuel in the tank for one of the tests to see if the Denso's help the engine to detonate under adverse conditions. Hot weather and high loads (like going up a hill) will exacerbate this condition.

So, how about some really good tests?

There really is more to all of this, and this is getting too long...

so cal type s_RENAMED

are the bosch platinum +4 comparable to the our stock ngk's? i recall seeing a back to back dyno of new plugs where the iridium outperformed them very slightly.

has anybody with the iridium plugs seen an increase in fuel economy?

EricL

Yes, I think they +4 are very similar. The center electrode is very similar -- it just adds the additional four ground electrodes.

I was the one that posted that dyno, and there was only a 1 HP difference between the Bosch and the Iridium (The dyno below is between a Denso Iridium Race plugs and Bosch Platinum #4227).




Hang on...

link to primer on spark plugs:
http://www.oz-one.com.au/Spark%20Plugs.htm

so cal type s_RENAMED

thanks for the link. definate bookmark material.

technoid

WOW!

ERICL, you da "Spark Man" -- you definitely know your s@#t about this topic. I appreciate your taking the time and effort to articulate your thoughts, no matter how lengthy!

Thanks for your responses!
------------------------------------

2001 3.2 CL-S
NAVI
Satin Silver
OEM Spark Plugs
-
Comptech Headers
H&R OE Sport Springs
Koni Yellows
Comptech Anti-sways
Neuspeed Upper Strut Tie Bar
-
JL Audio 300/4 amp
JL Audio 250/1 monoblock amp
JL Audio 10W6 sub in custom enclosure
Boston Acoustics ProSeries 6.5's
Boston Acoustics RM9's

BNut

I have run a total of over 22 dyno runs on this car! My car was dyno'd TWICE before the plugs were put in to establish a reliable baseline for comparison purposes. The dyno runs were in line with my previous runs since my last mod had been performed so I didn't see the need for doing a third.

After the Denso plugs were installed, my car was then dyno'd THREE more times. The best run from the baseline (run 20) was compared with the best run after the plugs were installed (run 22).

If you live in Houston feel free to go to Carboys and view all my runs on the computer... Its under the V6 Accord directory in the folder named "Brian Berger"

P.S. The reason I had these plugs dyno'd was to PROVE that spark plugs DON'T give any substantial power gains. Oops, looks like I was wrong wasn't I?

P.P.S. Sorry for being an azz in my first reply.

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: BNut ]

magnetic1

Sorry BNut.. didnt know those were your charts From the dyno graph.. only looks like 7 runs...

I was just saying if 2 dyno runs are made.. 6.9HP can come from anywhere....

Cheer up.. not flaming you!

BNut

My bad... I took that as a flame... Sorry for the harsh repsonse. :\

I totally agree... if the engine over heats b/w runs you can have back to runs that are easily 5hp different. (In fact this happened after my intake was installed and dyno'd) Or if the engine isn't up to proper operating temp, a cold run followed by a warmer run can easily add 5hp.