NOVAwhiteTypeS:
I'm going to pass too. He was totally unconvincing and hasn't replied in 3 days. He didn't even address the refunds...and it not surprisingly sounds like they screwed up the fitment...but the pulley wears in over time...so rather than spend the money to make all the customers happy they figured that it'd just work out. It's a bad case of the business-not-remembering-when-they-were-a-customer...definitely gets my thumb's down.

Austin519

 

Now, where is the CLS Alt Pulley?

 

This thing smells bad to me :thumbsdn: :shakehd:

 

If they could, they wouldn't have put a harmonic dampener on the pulley then would they?

 

I would view the pulleys as one of those bad girls you meet while your out wasted. Sometimes it's better if you don't hear back from them, no matter how horny you are...

 

SiGGy:
Truer words were never spoken

Austin519

 

Witty analogy

 

I can hear your crank bearing saying thank you from here, lol. Good luck guys, glad to see you weren't as easily duped as us dudes at club 3G.

 

R those 2k Gt so fast.... with I/E and you are doing 14.6s that is decent! I thought the GT was 7s to 60, no?

 

i wonder what my crank bearings are saying, sitting there bathed in synthetic oil. if they are complaining, i'll just tell 'em to stfu and get back to work. spoiled little bastards. :o

 

This post is not meant to offend owners that use this type of forum for calm rumorless and flame free interaction and I also personally apologize for the rude action of a certain group of vehicle owners. I also have a business to run and don't have 24/7 to run around boards defending myself when the facts were posted numerous times. It almost seems like there is nothing else for me to say because some of you seem to not be able to read. I said that if the 3G Eclipse owners were that hard up to have the part fixed, although the part is already clearanced from use, we would be glad to do it, we would even pay for the freight back to us and the freight after the fix. We admit an initial design mistake but one that was self fixing, had it not been we would have taken them back immediately fixed them and returned them back to the owners. But the mistake was based on prior experience with warping timing covers on other Mitsubishi cars we have developed parts for. Some of you also don't seem to understand that harmonics have nothing to do with bearings at these power levels, under 4-5 times stock HP. This fact has been quoted by me numerous times. Lastly we told owners of the 2000-2002 CL/TL (including Type S w/auto) waiting for the new alternator pulley that we were still awaiting the sample alternator to complete the changes. We are expecting it tomorrow or monday of next week. Instead of reading this info some of you started to cry foul, talk about a few people with nothing better to do with their lives then cry about stuff that was already cleared up. We will have the new alternator for the 6spd Type S in about a week. Another point that some seemed to disregard is the fact that Honda used a solid crank pulley on many a 3.0/3.2L, we have the sample to prove it including and samples of many other solid factory crank pulleys, not just from Honda. The bottom line is that one group in very limited numbers had a problem that we feel is platform oriented. The real fact is that there have never been any problems with any other of the hundreds of pulley combinations we make from 70 HP street cars to 1000 HP race cars. We also have a flawless record for over 5+ years and 700+ million street miles. If you don't want the product fine we respect that but let others make there own decisions based upon the facts we provided, don't start ridiculous baseless rumors. We want to work with you all to creat more products including cam gears.

Respectfully,
Shawn

 

Thank you again for posting here.

I am glad that a President of Company that makes after market performance product for Accord V6 CL/TL is contributing to this open forum.

Moreover, I am very happy to hear that, after some 3 weeks, you are finally getting a sample 01-03 CL Alt. Hopeful, making the CLS ALt pulley would not take much longer.

Good luck for you and for my CLS engine!

Thanks again

 

unorthodox:
Hmm...so you're giving up? You must understand...we are a very large group of very informed consumers.

"I said that if the 3G Eclipse owners were that hard up to have the part fixed, although the part is already clearanced from use, we would be glad to do it, we would even pay for the freight back to us and the freight after the fix."

Wonderful...that solves that issue. I hope that all the 3G owners reading this will see that and send their product back and then they're done.

"We admit an initial design mistake but one that was self fixing, had it not been we would have taken them back immediately fixed them and returned them back to the owners."

Honestly Shawn...if I were your company...and for analogy's sake had sold say a set of headers that were bent too far out, and thus would burn away some piece of plastic that was in the way in the car (a self fixing issue)...I would have immediately ordered a recall and told all my customers about it. I wouldn't have just said oh it will change a piece of their car without them knowing. You say that it was just one model out of thousands...but it was still customers Shawn, and it was a mistake you guys found out about. Who knows...you could sell it to us and be saying "oh it was just two models" to others. The fact that your alternator pulley didn't even work when you brought it out plus this 3G thing does make us ancy...for obvious reasons.

"But the mistake was based on prior experience with warping timing covers on other Mitsubishi cars we have developed parts for."

But it still wasn't right Shawn. No matter the reason .

"It almost seems like there is nothing else for me to say because some of you seem to not be able to read."

I think this is where you at least have totally lost my faith Shawn...because I specifically asked you questions about the RMA to the 3Gers and this is the first post where you have been clear about it. Had you said that long ago I would have no issue with you. And I am glad to have you come here and post too. But what is more likely...that no one on the forum can read well and didn't understand a perfectly understandable post...or that you beat around the bush with your posts instead of answering and everyone noticed? That was my issue, and seeing you blame this on anyone but yourself is frustrating.

Austin519

 

Thank You Shawn, but I still dont understand why refunds were not offered to those whose CEL's were triggered after the installation of UR pullies???

You say the problem is their's since it's a problem with their platform. Many here feel that the problem is yours since you took money from owners and sold them a part for this supposed problematic platform. The mistake was on your end by releasing the product without the proper research and with some wrong assumptions, but you have left them to pay for your mistake. From the ethical viewpoint of so many, that is just wrong.

Its great you are trying to make parts for us, but I would never let a fear of offending a potential manufacturer prevent me from asking them provacative questions; questions that would remove all doubt from my mind about any possible ill effects from using their products on something I value so much. I hope you see and understand that because these boards (A-CL.com and A-TL.com) are made up of tons of people who feel the same way I do.

All members here like Eric (whose opinion here is well respected) are looking for is hard numbers and facts. Testimonials can only say so much as do statements like we have 700 million miles under our belts. They are hard to prove and dont offer much assurance. Watch any auto informercial about products like the "tornado" for example and you see the same thing, so its easy to understand why many dont place much weight in them

You say your tests etc show there is no need for TVD', etc, How about sharing that info with us. Either pics, posts, whatever.

You said you have solid pullies factory Honda 3.0/3.2L V-6's; since the TL-S/CL-S is using a variant of the 3.0 SOHC V-6 debuted in the previous Gen CL and has a TVD, I am assuming the only engine you are talking about is the 3.2 and 3.0 DOHC V-6's found in the NSX. Is that true?? If so can you post pics??

The members of both boards appreciate the extra efforts some people go to in assisting us, and believe me many members fight tooth and nail protecting their names afterwards if they come under any fire, so believe us we want to work with you, but at the same time, we want more than just statements or having another carrot dangled in front of us.

 

One thing to add... and I speak for myself...

So far, I have bought the UR Ultra SS kit and never installed it yet.

I am still debating installing the UR Utra SS kit (once the Alt pulley is shipped) or selling the Kit(with a disclaimer) or returning the the kit to UR and asking for a refund....

Now...

In the light of lack of definitive evidence that it's 100% safe mod to do on the CLS engine ...

If I installed the UR Ultra SS kit:

1) I will "feel good" if any seveer engine problems would not show up for the next 150,000 miles...
2) I will feel "very bad" that in 40k miles.. the engine is "fucked up"...no one to blame but myself!

In any case, it was my decision, I have to live with it...

But, for the obvious reason, I WILL NEVER RECOMEND THIS MOD for a car with a stock TVD... (a maxima has no TVD so why not get UR Kit!, others, I will just shut up!)

 

so, what's it gonna be, nashau?

i'm not sure what to believe myself. i hope everything works out, but if it doesn't i'll just build a 3.5 liter and use the UR crank pulley as a paper weight. time will reveal, as i'm not removing the pulley. i'll be the guinea pig. me, titan and typeR.

if things do turn bad, there will be some folks full of regret. and it won't be just me.

 

btw, a 3.2L short block is only $1500.

 

First off, thank you for spending some time coming on here and answering some questions that our members have asked. It shows that you at least put in more time than most other companies to talk it out.

Have you had time to test any 97-99 CL 3.0's? You mention 3.0L engines from honda/acura, but I am almost positive you mean the Accord 3.0 engine, which is the same as the CL 3.0 but sometimes things just don't fit well between the cars. Both use the j30 engine. Thank you.

 

To Summarize what I've heard so far:

3g Eclipse owners have a rubbing problem with the pulleys that apparently fixes itself. UR heard of this but did not offer a recall. Eclipse owners, according to Shawn, never asked for any kind of compensation for this. Is this correct?

 

FALSE - We did. If you read his earlier post, they did not offer a refund because it would indicate that they put out a bad part which in turn would ruin their reputation. So they pretty much said "screw you."

Now a couple of questions for Shawn:

1) What's your response to this article on harmonic vibrations?


2) You offered to exchange our old pulley for a new pulley. What happens if the new revised pulley STILL triggers the light? That would be $40 for my old install, $40 to remove it and send it back to you, and another $40 to install the new one. And if the new one STILL triggers the light, it's all a waste of time and money. Has it been TESTED and can you GUARANTEE that it will NOT set off the light? If not, will you offer a flat-out REFUND if we ship the old pulley back to you?

 

Don't belive the mag times, we have guys from 14.9 to 15.2 stock, I personally ran a 15.3 stock my first time at a track. All I have done is an AEM CAI, custom axle back exhaust, DM Racing motor mounts, Iridium Spark plugs, B&G 1.75 drop springs, KYB AGX rear struts(fronts aren't availible for the 3G yet), Axxiss Metal master brake pads, and a suspension techniques 22mm rear swaybar upgrade(made a VERY big difference in how this car handles). At the time of my 14.6 run I had all the suspension stuff but I was on OEM motor mounts and OEM NGK plugs. Last time I ran at the track after installing the motor mounts and Denso plugs I picked up 1.5MPH through the traps but I couldn't get the launch(my best time that night was a 14.81@96MPH with a BAD 2.34 second 60'), I can't belive how worn my stock plugs were at 40K miles. I got the launch figured out now, I just need to hit the track. I might just wait to get my catless downpipe installed(might break into the 14.3 range with this mod). Take care guys!


PS. My best time with the UR underdrive pulley installed was a 14.91@91MPH with a 2.16 60' time, the thing actually KILLED my top end but gave me slightly better low end. That and every once in a while on a run it would trip the SES light and I'd run a 15.4@88MPH, lol. I pulled it off and I instantly busted into the mid 14's.

 

I might be on the list too.. Ulless some Accord guy wanted the kit off my hand and he is dying for it..

How do you like the kit so far? how many miles on it? any negative effects like added vibrations that u can feel?

 

Did they not offer a refund or did you guys not ask one? Just wanted to know in case I have a problem.

 

They originally offered me a return, because there R&D car(or guinea pig), which was a Galant, not an Eclipse, came back in because of a constant SES light. Then Shawn made a wild guess that it was a "Platform Problem" and denied my return. Now he wants to make friends and give us another pulley that doesn't work, so far I know one Eclipse owner that has a freak car that it works well on, not exactly the scale he is claiming here. And as I said before, my car was slower with the pulley in place.

And to Shawn: I sold your piece of shit pulley to a 3K GT guy, no need for refund now, I held onto it for a year and finally gave up. Your not a very customer oriented person, I work for the 2nd largest telecommunications test company in the world and if one of our testers didn't work as specified, we would have refunded the money IMMEDIETLY.

 

so far so good. the car still runs very smoothly, w/ maybe a tad bit more vib. at the steering wheel. but i need to sit in a stock cl to really tell. i would guess i have put on at least a 1000mi. since the install, i have also won 2 drag races, back to back weekends since the install i don't credit all that to the pulleys.

hard facts. best 1/4 time before pulleys - 14.67 @ 97.48. after pulleys and new tires - 14.32 @ 98.09 and getting faster. that math is easy to do.

as you said nashau, i wouldn't reccomend the pulleys to anyone until we know hard facts about the effects on the engine. i'm going to talk to my friend at acura about how much it would cost to tear down the motor far enough to check for bearing wear. does anyone know how much of a job that would be? would other prospective pulley buyers be willing to help me foot the bill, if it's a reasonable do-able project?

 

you're talking 1K$ worht of labor. at standard rates...you need a friend in the business to even concider this....my self im not concerned...my car feels smoother than ever and gas milage has gone up.....

 

if it's going to cost a $1000 i wont do it. i'll find out.

like i said, my car feels smooth too. and faster.

my 1/8 mi. was 9.40 @ 77+mph.

 

what were the temps though???

 

78 degrees, 184 ft. altitude. and my car was getting faster.

 

Good to see you here TypeR. In case you forgot we briefly chatted in the FL room of AV6.

 

Any answers on the above?? Which 3/3.2 V-6 from Honda comes with a solid crankshaft? I am very curious

 

I'm pretty sure he meant that it came with a "solid" pulley -- this would be of great help in "making" a conclusion about any long time or short time problems. (I said help...)

If someone can go by and take a picture of it and verify that it is the "real" deal, that would be rather helpful..

 

A guy flaoting on the Accord V6 board the same what UR is saying. He claims he works for Honda assembly plant. He claims that the source of his information is from a engine plant manager/engineer. Here is his quote:


The remaing of the thread and a nice rebutal is here:

http://www.v6accord.com/forums/showt...threadid=10144

 

I was going to spare everyone, but....


Some additional notes:

I have the reference that was sited in the Dinan reference and I can say the following:

1. A crank in a v6 is generally "stronger" (rough guideline) than an I6 (inline 6). The V6 is more compact and has a shorter crankshaft. The I6 is smoother, but has a longer crank. The "violence" of a resonance is related to the length of a crankshaft (not totally, just a factor). (The materials properties and other factors come into play, so don't just go, "hey, V6 good, I6 bad with lightweight non-damped pulleys..." (People – rocking and shacking have nothing to due with torsional vibrations. This is not something for the technically challenged to make conclusions about and I would be willing to use it on a race car with an unlimited budget in a microsecond (hey, winning is the goal, and it would be worth the try…)

2. Torsional vibrations are a serious issue and the book I have (see Dinan link) is quite firm on how "resonance" can cause increased crank and bearing loads. The "flexing" is generally greater at the pulley end of the crank. There is no doubt that serious cracking and bearing damage can result. (Sorry, no free software and CLS crank specs included with book...)

3. There are many different types of "dampers" -- and it would surprise a lot of people to know how many "types" of dampers have been "invented" for engines. Rubber, when used for a particular "resonance" is the most effective elastomer available at this time. It absorbs a huge amount of destructive energy. If there is enough interest, there are some comments on how it compares to spring steel in the area of energy absorption. That rubber can absorb a huge amount of energy in at a given frequency. It would surprise a lot of people to know just how fragile some cranks are when torsional resonance starts-up. This is not “simple”…

4. So, I'm sure that bearings will get increased loading. I have no idea if the increase is like carrying an extra 10-lbs around (on a human) over a lifetime or if it is like carrying 200-lbs around (can you say heart attack/stroke/etc.) In one case, nothing happens of any significance, in the other, an engine can go "boom" and it would be hard to sort it out without a data-logger runing full-time. (Zero conclusions here -- your own your own)

<hr></hr>

My own comments:

1. I'm glad that at least some "offering" was made to the Eclipse folks, as to what this means -- who knows. Better to do a turn around than no turn around at all. However, there are some "Ironies" in rewarding someone who does something that, IMO, should have been done in the first place. Then, the matter returns about just what a warranty is -- in that regard, if the parts are sold, "as is", and no warranty outside of "fitment" is provided, I would think that more options are better than less options. In other words, if you want to win a race -- do you want more parts/options or less parts/options?

2. Some people have made comments about smoothness -- well, it turns out that the noise that might result from a resonance might need the engine turned off and dropped from a high rpm. Just running an engine and "thinking" its smoother is not a "proof". (It is nice that there isn't a vibration (tell me I'm wrong), as that would point to possible problems of a very large magnitude).

3. The rubber accessory belts themselves, while not documented or conventionally used as TVDs can help or hinder resonance -- so, one more variable to factor in.

4. Finally, there is one thing that has been bugging me. Manufacturers are notorious for cutting costs (oh, how we could site some examples here). It costs more money to make a pulley with rubber in it. This is a conjecture without any conclusion, but one would wonder why a manufacturer with a variant, would choose to use a TVD if it was 1) robbing free HP/TQ 2) cost more to make (I would accept the they have tons of them around, but I do believe that most of the parts are built in a “just in time” manner to reduce inventory costs.. (just an opinion here – feel free to disagree) There is also the issue of vibrations in the cabin, but, there are some very effective motor mounts and they would probably do a pretty good job of eliminating any noise. F

<hr></hr>

So, just more questions, and without the tests, the "mod" could run forever with minimal consequence *or* there could be serious problems.

If I were shopping for a used CLS, I would buy the one without pulleys until I heard more from those "testing" the pulleys (just my opinion and it's like the tranny -- maybe it works forever, maybe it doesn't...)

And, it is better in my opinion to at least have the parts available -- people do run NOx... (yes/no/obvious)?


Time should tell…

 

Does anyone want to contact the mod/admin from the Accord V6 board and find out what the guy's IP address is and compare it to the one that UR posted from on this board?

Just wanna make sure that the guy is really from Ohio. I've have never heard of an engine being so "perfected balanced". If it were, Honda wouldn't waste money by putting a dampener on the car.

 

 

As far as cutting corners is concerened .... aluminum pullies are always more expensive that factory pullies. The factory looks at cost etc... I am assuming the Unorthodox pullies would be of highter quality???

 

I need to re-read the comments over there. The cynic in me says, hey, it sure would be easy to have a "ringer" show up and be "friendly". OTOH, it sure would be nasty to turn away inside sources with valuable knowledge.. I would think that there would be a couple issues that relate to your concern (re: IP address/validation). I only have access to the IPs on the transmission forum, I certainly can ask about the IPs here, but that would require someone else to check on a "list" of “suspect” names. The other part of the “job” would be gathering the IPs and run nslookup on the IPs and see where they are physically located (well, at least the ISP).


<hr></hr>.

I'm going to quote from the book I've got on a 60-degree V-6 engine (Advanced Engine Technology). Note: it’s “involved” reading, but this should give some folks a “feel” for some of the technical issues that people who are “masters” are involved with.

"A 60-degree vee cylinder banked angle enables the width of an engine to be reduced by approximately 25% at the expense of something like a 20% increase in engine height, as compared with a 90-degree vee engine of the same capacity. Whereas the overall engine length is reduced by roughly 35% relative to a similar capacity straight six-cylinder engine, this reductions in crankshaft length considerable increases the rigidity of the crankshaft and, therefore, practically eliminates any torsional vibration.
The crankshaft has six separate big-end crankpins equally spaced at intervals of 60-degrees arranged in pairs between the four main journal bearings (Fig -- no scanner)
The centrifugal inertia forces of the crankpins and connecting-rod big-ends cancel out due to there being three diametrically opposing pairs of crankpins 1 and 6, 4 and 2, and 3 and 5, but these generate three longitudinally active couples which create a dynamic imbalance to the crankshaft. These three couple produce a resultant longitudinal couple in the plane of crankpins 1 and 6 and this in normally cancelled by providing balance weights directly opposite and on each side of crankpins 1 and 6 and this is normally cancelled by providing balance weights directly opposite and on each side of crankpin Nos. 1 and 6. In some long stroke engines a third additional pair of smaller balance weights are positioned in the same plane and direction as the other counterweights, but they are attached to the inner webs of crankpins 3 and 4 as this arrangement tests to relieve more of the load on the two inner main bearings."


Now moving to another section on a 60-degree 6-cylinder:

"...
With counterweights forming part of the fly wheel and rear three extended crank webs, and diagonally opposed counterweights imposed on the front pulley and first three extended crank webs, primary couple can be neutralized.

My comment on inline 6:
The summary on the 6-cylinder inline emphasizes the natural balance (think of two three cylinder engines that perfectly balance the forces from front and back sets of 3-cylinders but...

"...The generated couples act in the opposite sense to each other and therefore tend to become neutralized, but this is generally at the expense of the crankshaft bending in several places along its length, which can cause excessive main journal deflection and very high bearing loads..."

My comment on the above: There is a natural balance with a long crank that can exacerbate torsional vibrations (all things being equal). There is the issue of materials quality and construction, so someone could build an inline-6 that was ready for high-compression turbo work, and someone could build a v6 that failed at very low hp/tq (the materials and design are rather important).

AND

Let me quote the Critical Speeds section, in case you were thinking I'm telling you the "coast is clear"...

"When the shaft is revolving at such speed that the tangential torque frequency, or one of the harmonic sine wave frequencies (harmonic order number x crankshaft speed), synchronizes -- that is, coincided with the natural frequency of vibration of the shaft--resonance occurs. Thus, the crankshaft speed at which this resonance occurs is said to be a critical speed for that particular harmonic order. If the tangential torque or harmonic impulses are applied at the same number of times per minute as the natural frequency of the elastic system, the amplitude of the vibration will increase until eventually the crankshaft is destroyed by fatigue failure or the crankshaft speed moves out of phase with the harmonic frequencies . It therefore follows for a four-stroke cycle engine that there is a critical speed for every whole and half-order harmonic."

[i]"When a crankshaft is subjected to repeated cycles of torsional stress reversals the stress and strain do not obey Hooke's law; that is, the strain is not strictly proportional to the stresses within the elastic limit. There is, in fact, a very small lag of the strain during loading and unloading of the strain, so that a stress-strain graph encloses what is known as a hysteresis loop (fig not shown) the width of which at any given stress is the strain difference between the unloading and loading curves.
The lag in strain between cycles of fluctuating stresses may cause the material at comparatively low stresses to accumulate considerable local strains, which may eventually result in shaft failure. Thus, the energy dissipated in hysteresis at a critical speed due to stress reversals in the first instance may contribute to a small amount of damping of the vibration, but eventually it may lead to the rupture of the shaft at stresses far below the elastic limit of the material.

When the stress is low, the area, which represents the energy imparted by the hysteresis loop is small. However, as the stress range is increased, the area increases enormously; this is, the energy dissipated within the shaft material rises rapidly (fig not shown) and, if permitted to persist, will destroy the shaft even though the alternating stresses are relatively low.
Crankshaft torsional vibrations are inherently damped to a limited extent by either internal or external means; that is, within the engine or in the transmission and auxiliary drives. Internal engine damping is made up partially by energy losses due to hysteresis but more so by oil film viscous shear in the main and bind-end bearings. This damping is adequate to protect the shaft during minor criticals, but is NOT sufficient to cope with the more violent major criticals.”



Properties of rubber:

"Rubber stiffness decreases with high deformation while its damping ability remains constant or even decreases. Likewise, heat reduces both the stiffness and the damping ability. Rubber has the ability to store enormous amounts of energy and can release most of this energy on retraction. Thus, as a comparison, 1500 times as much energy can be absorbed by rubber than for tempered spring steel of a similar mass. Rubber also has the highest internal friction (hysteresis) of all the engineering materials.

Well, these are just a bare few of the details…


And, the fact that the rubber would be dissipating heat is a clue to a possible test that would need a donation of dyno time and a very accurate IR thermometer with laser pointer ($99).

 

Did you see the Maxima pulley -- it is solid, and I'm not too sure it's that expensive to produce. Have a look at the Acura pulley with the rubber in it -- that is not cheap and involved numerous process steps. So, in one case, a "special" CNC machine does a "special" one-off job for a part (the lighweight Aluminum), that when done right should be very nice indeed. OTOH, why bother with expensive bonding and other issues if a POS cast iron or steel pulley would do...

 

The Real and Only Eight-Page Thread About Unorthodox Racing Pulleys

Welcome to page nine, asshats!

(for future reference, this post was at the top of page nine until someone thought it would be funny to delete a previous post, bumping this back to page 8)