For the people that own sways.
06-28-2001, 01:20 AM
#41
Suzuka Master
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fast_daddy_car:
No problem, mail me your toyo's and I'll test them out!!
I am still thinking of getting them, but in NJ I would need a snow set also. If I get the toyo's, I would also get some new rims, haven't seen ones I like that would also be different than stock. Well, I should say I haven't seen ones I like that cost under 5k.
</font>
No problem, mail me your toyo's and I'll test them out!!
I am still thinking of getting them, but in NJ I would need a snow set also. If I get the toyo's, I would also get some new rims, haven't seen ones I like that would also be different than stock. Well, I should say I haven't seen ones I like that cost under 5k.
</font>
No, it is like one of those commercials where the guy keeps offering insane amounts of inducements to give something up.
(But, then there is always that comment on how every man has his price...)
------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI
- Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (50 lbs less than stock)
- Comptech headers & sways
- Silver AEM CAI
- 12 coats of Zaino magic
- NEUSPEED Upper Strut Tie Bar ordered
- Stainless Brake lines coming (Brembos?)
- V1 ordered
[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 06-27-2001).]
06-28-2001, 01:22 AM
#42
Drifting
Join Date: Mar 2001
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by so cal type s:
lowered springs that do not help cornering??? before making conclusions, i'd recomment riding in a car that is lowered and not lowered.
</font>
lowered springs that do not help cornering??? before making conclusions, i'd recomment riding in a car that is lowered and not lowered.
</font>
06-28-2001, 02:13 AM
#43
Racer
Join Date: Jan 2001
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rod:
Exactly, I read those posts that state that springs only help reduce brake dive and squating when accelerating, but don't do anything for side-to-side motion and now disagree. I definitely feel a difference in high-speed lane changes and curves with my Comptech springs. The steering is also tighter which gives you more confidence when going into turns.</font>
Exactly, I read those posts that state that springs only help reduce brake dive and squating when accelerating, but don't do anything for side-to-side motion and now disagree. I definitely feel a difference in high-speed lane changes and curves with my Comptech springs. The steering is also tighter which gives you more confidence when going into turns.</font>
the best way to beat this BS is to ride in the same car with the setup that you want, so you can make your own judgements and compare it to your own ride.
so, sways will improve your setup. how much and to what degree? ride in our car with sways and a car 1200 pounds lighter with just sways.
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LAKERS: BACK TO BACK!
[This message has been edited by so cal type s (edited 06-28-2001).]
06-28-2001, 04:25 AM
#45
Instructor
Join Date: Apr 2001
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It's all a matter of driving style.
Every suspension component mentioned in this topic (sways, springs, shocks and tires) makes a difference by itself and in combination.
IMO, changing lanes at 80 should not be part of the criteria to decide how big the change in handling is. If a car nowadays doesn't inspire confidence when changing lanes at 80, then there's a serious problem.
To test accurately, you need to do "before and after" tests in the twisties. You can even use a parking lot but there has to be some consistency.
There are numerous shock/spring/sway/tire combinations that can be tried to alleviate understeer but I think it'll be difficult to make the CLS neutral in a way that is comfortable in ride and safe for most drivers.
Most people can't handle oversteer, and most people that do have to work at it.
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2001 Silver CL-S
Every suspension component mentioned in this topic (sways, springs, shocks and tires) makes a difference by itself and in combination.
IMO, changing lanes at 80 should not be part of the criteria to decide how big the change in handling is. If a car nowadays doesn't inspire confidence when changing lanes at 80, then there's a serious problem.
To test accurately, you need to do "before and after" tests in the twisties. You can even use a parking lot but there has to be some consistency.
There are numerous shock/spring/sway/tire combinations that can be tried to alleviate understeer but I think it'll be difficult to make the CLS neutral in a way that is comfortable in ride and safe for most drivers.
Most people can't handle oversteer, and most people that do have to work at it.
------------------
2001 Silver CL-S
06-28-2001, 11:50 PM
#46
Suzuka Master
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Beach-CL:
It's all a matter of driving style.
Every suspension component mentioned in this topic (sways, springs, shocks and tires) makes a difference by itself and in combination.
IMO, changing lanes at 80 should not be part of the criteria to decide how big the change in handling is. If a car nowadays doesn't inspire confidence when changing lanes at 80, then there's a serious problem.
To test accurately, you need to do "before and after" tests in the twisties. You can even use a parking lot but there has to be some consistency.
There are numerous shock/spring/sway/tire combinations that can be tried to alleviate understeer but I think it'll be difficult to make the CLS neutral in a way that is comfortable in ride and safe for most drivers.
Most people can't handle oversteer, and most people that do have to work at it.
</font>
It's all a matter of driving style.
Every suspension component mentioned in this topic (sways, springs, shocks and tires) makes a difference by itself and in combination.
IMO, changing lanes at 80 should not be part of the criteria to decide how big the change in handling is. If a car nowadays doesn't inspire confidence when changing lanes at 80, then there's a serious problem.
To test accurately, you need to do "before and after" tests in the twisties. You can even use a parking lot but there has to be some consistency.
There are numerous shock/spring/sway/tire combinations that can be tried to alleviate understeer but I think it'll be difficult to make the CLS neutral in a way that is comfortable in ride and safe for most drivers.
Most people can't handle oversteer, and most people that do have to work at it.
</font>
2. Neutral handling is so subjective and has so many flavors that relate to the steady state and transient behavior, that this becomes a technical exercise. For example, I could put in way overdamped shocks in the rear to promote understear in transients, yet have heavy understear in steady state cornering.
3. Our particular car doesn't lend itself (in my opinion) to the particular trailing throttle oversteer that is so in fashion in the car mags). That type of behavior also lends itself to impressive displays. Perhaps I've just spent too much time in RWD cars relative to AWD and FWD, but I don't like "loose" cars in FWD. I never thought that our cars were meant to compete in SCCA competition, etc. I do like to haul ass, and I do like to have a safe car to aviod the bad drivers that infest the streets and freeways. The car CAN be made to handle in a neutral fashion (as can most cars).
4. You are correct in your assertion that most people can NOT handle oversteer. Until driving laws, testing, and training change in this country, you won't find too many "average" drivers that even know which way to turn in to a skid. That is one reason that everyone (car makers) dial in understeer (It also seems to be more politically correct to have some duffus just plow into someone in lieu of having them spin out into some school bus.)
It is nice to have a vehicle with sufficient mods that the car can handle fast evasive lane changes at 80 MPH (Saved my life many times -- thank you). It is also nice to have a car that is closer to neutral if the driver wants that (anything is possible).
I don't know what tires you have on the car, but I have almost neutral behavior, and the car is NOT lowered.
BTW -- I don't advocate removal of the front sway bar or tire pressure antics to introduce wild oversteer in our car. I also have been modifying cars for 25+ years.
------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI
- Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (50 lbs less than stock)
- Comptech headers & sways
- Silver AEM CAI
- 14 coats of Zaino magic
- NEUSPEED Upper Strut Tie Bar ordered
- Stainless Brake lines coming (Brembos?)
- V1 ordered
06-29-2001, 05:20 AM
#47
Instructor
Join Date: Apr 2001
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EricCL:
I have not tried to express any specific logic in my statement. By your response in #1 I guess you misunderstood or I was not very clear in my statement about changing lanes at 80 as a way to rate a difference in handling. Most cars (and SUVs) nowadays will inspire confidence when changing lanes at 80. That was my point. If some don't we need to really stay away from those.
I agree with you on 2 and 3. When I say "more neutral" I mean to reduce the heavy understeer we now have.
Also 4.
I've been modifying cars for only about 20 years myself. I have also raced high performance go-karts, IMSA and SCCA events.
(I am not much of a drag racer)
------------------
2001 Silver CL-S
I have not tried to express any specific logic in my statement. By your response in #1 I guess you misunderstood or I was not very clear in my statement about changing lanes at 80 as a way to rate a difference in handling. Most cars (and SUVs) nowadays will inspire confidence when changing lanes at 80. That was my point. If some don't we need to really stay away from those.
I agree with you on 2 and 3. When I say "more neutral" I mean to reduce the heavy understeer we now have.
Also 4.
I've been modifying cars for only about 20 years myself. I have also raced high performance go-karts, IMSA and SCCA events.
(I am not much of a drag racer)
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by EricL:
1. By your logic, most SUVs (that can not handle radical 80 MPH lane changes) should be banned outright. And the bulk of the non-performace cars should never be allowed to go over 80 MPH (they do tend to sway violently).
2. Neutral handling is so subjective and has so many flavors that relate to the steady state and transient behavior, that this becomes a technical exercise. For example, I could put in way overdamped shocks in the rear to promote understear in transients, yet have heavy understear in steady state cornering.
3. Our particular car doesn't lend itself (in my opinion) to the particular trailing throttle oversteer that is so in fashion in the car mags). That type of behavior also lends itself to impressive displays. Perhaps I've just spent too much time in RWD cars relative to AWD and FWD, but I don't like "loose" cars in FWD. I never thought that our cars were meant to compete in SCCA competition, etc. I do like to haul ass, and I do like to have a safe car to aviod the bad drivers that infest the streets and freeways. The car CAN be made to handle in a neutral fashion (as can most cars).
4. You are correct in your assertion that most people can NOT handle oversteer. Until driving laws, testing, and training change in this country, you won't find too many "average" drivers that even know which way to turn in to a skid. That is one reason that everyone (car makers) dial in understeer (It also seems to be more politically correct to have some duffus just plow into someone in lieu of having them spin out into some school bus.)
It is nice to have a vehicle with sufficient mods that the car can handle fast evasive lane changes at 80 MPH (Saved my life many times -- thank you). It is also nice to have a car that is closer to neutral if the driver wants that (anything is possible).
I don't know what tires you have on the car, but I have almost neutral behavior, and the car is NOT lowered.
BTW -- I don't advocate removal of the front sway bar or tire pressure antics to introduce wild oversteer in our car. I also have been modifying cars for 25+ years.
</font>
1. By your logic, most SUVs (that can not handle radical 80 MPH lane changes) should be banned outright. And the bulk of the non-performace cars should never be allowed to go over 80 MPH (they do tend to sway violently).
2. Neutral handling is so subjective and has so many flavors that relate to the steady state and transient behavior, that this becomes a technical exercise. For example, I could put in way overdamped shocks in the rear to promote understear in transients, yet have heavy understear in steady state cornering.
3. Our particular car doesn't lend itself (in my opinion) to the particular trailing throttle oversteer that is so in fashion in the car mags). That type of behavior also lends itself to impressive displays. Perhaps I've just spent too much time in RWD cars relative to AWD and FWD, but I don't like "loose" cars in FWD. I never thought that our cars were meant to compete in SCCA competition, etc. I do like to haul ass, and I do like to have a safe car to aviod the bad drivers that infest the streets and freeways. The car CAN be made to handle in a neutral fashion (as can most cars).
4. You are correct in your assertion that most people can NOT handle oversteer. Until driving laws, testing, and training change in this country, you won't find too many "average" drivers that even know which way to turn in to a skid. That is one reason that everyone (car makers) dial in understeer (It also seems to be more politically correct to have some duffus just plow into someone in lieu of having them spin out into some school bus.)
It is nice to have a vehicle with sufficient mods that the car can handle fast evasive lane changes at 80 MPH (Saved my life many times -- thank you). It is also nice to have a car that is closer to neutral if the driver wants that (anything is possible).
I don't know what tires you have on the car, but I have almost neutral behavior, and the car is NOT lowered.
BTW -- I don't advocate removal of the front sway bar or tire pressure antics to introduce wild oversteer in our car. I also have been modifying cars for 25+ years.
</font>
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2001 Silver CL-S
06-29-2001, 04:38 PM
#48
Suzuka Master
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
From BeachCL
EricCL [sic]:
I have not tried to express any specific logic in my statement. By your response in #1 I guess you misunderstood or I was not very clear in my statement about changing lanes at 80 as a way to rate a difference in handling. Most cars (and SUVs) nowadays will inspire confidence when changing lanes at 80. That was my point. If some don't we need to really stay away from those.
</font>
From BeachCL
EricCL [sic]:
I have not tried to express any specific logic in my statement. By your response in #1 I guess you misunderstood or I was not very clear in my statement about changing lanes at 80 as a way to rate a difference in handling. Most cars (and SUVs) nowadays will inspire confidence when changing lanes at 80. That was my point. If some don't we need to really stay away from those.
</font>
If you're talking about someone swerving into your lane at 80 MPH, and having the ability to do an instant and reflexive move to save your rear, a SUV, high CG, or other softly sprung and damped vehicle will be a handful to keep on the road.
So, are we talking "lane change" or evasive/panic maneuver here?
------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI
- Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (50 lbs less than stock)
- Comptech headers & sways
- Silver AEM CAI
- 14 coats of Zaino magic
- NEUSPEED Upper Strut Tie Bar ordered
- Stainless Brake lines coming (Brembos?)
- V1 ordered
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