someguy

Look at the JD power rankings for 2001, CL ranked 99th!!, but the TL is 3rd. That's messed up This seems belivable with all the problems we've been hearing about lateley.

J.D. Power 2001 Initial Quality Survey
Problems Per 100 Vehicles By Model
Total Industry 147

1 Lexus LS430 58
2 Lexus ES300 73
3 Acura TL 76
4 Jaguar XK Cpe/Conv 81
5 Lexus RX 300 85
6 Toyota Avalon 87
7 Toyota Tundra 91
8 BMW 7 Series 92
8 Saab 9-5 Sdn/Wgn 92
10 BMW 5 Series (Total) 94
11 Jaguar XJ Sedan 95
11 Mercedes-Benz E-Class 95
13 Lexus GS Sedan 96
14 Dodge Intrepid 99
15 BMW 3 Series (Total) 101
15 Chrysler LHS 101
15 Toyota Sienna 101
18 Lexus LX 470 102
19 Infiniti I30 103
20 Mercedes-Benz S-Class 104
20 Toyota Corolla 104


22 Cadillac DeVille 108
23 Honda Accord (Total) 109
23 Toyota Prius 109
25 Chevrolet Impala 110
25 Lexus IS 300 110
27 Chrysler Concorde 111
28 Nissan Maxima 113
28 Toyota Camry (Total) 113
30 Buick Regal 115
30 Chevrolet Corvette Cpe/Conv 115
30 Honda CR-V 115
33 Acura Integra (Total) 116
33 Chrysler Sebring Sdn/Conv (Total) 116
33 Lincoln Town Car 116
36 Buick Century 118
36 Buick LeSabre 118
38 Honda S2000 119
38 Porsche Boxster 119
38 Toyota ECHO Sdn/Cpe 119


41 Jaguar S-Type Sedan 121
42 Chevrolet Prizm 122
43 Audi A4/S4 Sdn/Avant 123
44 Chrysler PT Cruiser 124
45 Ford Expedition 129
45 Ford Taurus Sdn/Wgn 129
45 Saturn L Series (Total) 129
48 Nissan Altima 130
49 Honda Odyssey 132
49 Volvo S60 132
51 Nissan Pathfinder 133
52 Mercury Grand Marquis 134
53 Chevrolet Monte Carlo 135
53 Mercury Sable Sdn/Wgn 135
55 Chevrolet Suburban 136
55 Dodge Neon 136
57 Ford F-Series LD (Total) 137
57 Volvo S80 137
59 Jeep Grand Cherokee 138
59 Mazda Miata 138
59 Toyota 4Runner 138


63 Chevrolet Tahoe 139
64 Infiniti QX4 140
64 Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class 140
64 Mercury Mountaineer 140
64 Toyota Celica 140
68 Ford Crown Victoria 141
68 GMC Yukon 141
68 Saab 9-3 (Total) 141
68 Toyota Land Cruiser 141
72 Cadillac Catera 142
72 Toyota MR2 Spyder 142
72 Toyota Sequoia 142
75 Ford F-250 Super Duty 143
76 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD/3500 144
76 Jeep Wrangler 144
76 Saturn S Series (Total) 144
76 Subaru Outback Sport 144


80 BMW Z3 (Total) 145
80 Lincoln Navigator 145
80 Mercedes-Benz C-Class 145
80 Mitsubishi Mirage (Total) 145
84 Dodge Stratus Sedan 146
84 GMC Sonoma 146
84 Pontiac Grand Prix (Total) 146
87 GMC Sierra 2500HD/3500 147
87 Nissan Sentra 147
89 Audi A6 Sdn/Avant 148
89 Honda Prelude 148
89 Oldsmobile Alero Sdn/Cpe 148
92 Audi TT Cpe/Rdstr 149
92 Chrysler 300M 149
94 Chevrolet Blazer 150
94 Infiniti G20 150
94 Pontiac Grand Am (Total) 150
97 Plymouth Neon 151
97 Subaru Legacy Sdn/Wgn 151
99 Acura CL 152
99 Cadillac Seville 152
99 GMC Sierra 1500/2500 152
99 GMC Yukon XL 152
99 Volvo V70/V70 Cross Country 152

104 Chevrolet Silverado 1500/2500 153
104 Mercedes-Benz CLK-Class 153
104 Volkswagen Beetle 153
107 Chevrolet S-10 Pickup 154
107 Oldsmobile Bravada 154
107 Toyota Tacoma 154
110 Mazda 626 155
111 Ford Econoline/E-Series 156
112 Buick Park Avenue 158
112 Chevrolet Camaro Cpe/Conv 158
114 Acura MDX 160
114 GMC Jimmy 160
114 Mazda B-Series 160
114 Oldsmobile Intrigue 160
118 Audi allroad Quattro 161
118 Chrysler Voyager 161
118 Dodge Ram Pickup 2500/3500 161

121 Chevrolet Cavalier (Total) 162
122 Chrysler Town & Country 163
122 Dodge Durango 163
122 Mercedes-Benz M-Class 163
125 Ford Focus Sdn/Wgn/Hbk 164
125 Porsche 911 Cpe/Conv 164
125 Volkswagen Golf 164
128 Cadillac Eldorado 165
128 Dodge Caravan 165
128 Mitsubishi Galant 165
128 Volkswagen Jetta 165
132 Ford Excursion 166
132 Nissan Quest 166
134 Ford Mustang Cpe/Conv 167
134 Mitsubishi Montero 167
134 Pontiac Sunfire Sdn/Cpe 167
134 Volvo S40 167
138 Chrysler Sebring Coupe 168
138 Ford Ranger 168
138 Lincoln Continental 168
138 Lincoln LS 168
138 Mitsubishi Montero Sport 168
138 Volkswagen Passat 168

144 Dodge Stratus Coupe 169
145 Hyundai XG 300 172
146 Nissan Frontier 173
146 Oldsmobile Silhouette 173
148 Oldsmobile Aurora 174
148 Toyota RAV4 174
150 Ford Explorer (Total) 175
151 Chevrolet Tracker 178
151 Chevrolet Venture 178
151 Honda Civic (Total) 178
154 Mitsubishi Diamante 179
155 Hyundai Sonata 180
155 Jeep Cherokee 180
155 Nissan Xterra 180
158 Subaru Outback Sdn/Wgn 181
158 Volvo V40 181

160 Dodge Ram Pickup 1500 182
160 Pontiac Montana 182
162 Dodge Dakota 183
162 Pontiac Bonneville 183
164 Hyundai Accent (Total) 184
164 Mitsubishi Eclipse (Total) 184
166 Ford Windstar 185
167 BMW X5 186
168 Ford ZX2 Coupe 187
168 Hyundai Elantra Sdn/Wgn 187
170 Ford Explorer Sport Trac 188
171 Honda Passport 192
171 Subaru Forester 192
173 Isuzu Rodeo (Total) 192
174 Volkswagen Cabrio 195
175 Suzuki Esteem (Total) 200
176 Land Rover Discovery Series II 201
177 Hyundai Santa Fe 202
178 Chevrolet Astro 203
178 Dodge Ram Van 203
178 Pontiac Firebird Cpe/Conv 203

mrdeeno

but also notice how the top cars are usually sedans (and usually sell ALOT more than a cl).

so, for analogy only, if they sold 1000 tls, and 100 cls, and they surveyed 50 random owners of each, the chances that there are 50/100 cls with a lot of problems are a lot higher than 50/1000 tl's with problems.

and looking at the list, it does seem that the more popular/better selling cars did better (not counting high profile cars like the s2000, porsche boxters, jag xkr's, etc.).

that's my guess, and if anyone argues, i will pull more theoreticals out of my ass, just to justify that my car doesn't have more problems than a NEON!!!



[This message has been edited by mrdeeno (edited 05-21-2001).]

phinthesky

Ummmm...not to sound like an ass, but the problems taken are based on a percentage. So it doesn't matter if you sell 100, 1000 or 1 million cars. Also, these quality rankings are somewhat subjective. People who buy more expensive cars are more likely to complain about little problems, whereas people who buy less expensive cars will complain less. THis is fact.



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-Phin
www.generationinformation.com
AOL IM - paullanz01
CHECK IT OUT!!

droideka

BWAHHH! Now THAT'S some funny shit!

This list makes me sick. My wife's five-year old Civic has had ONE fucking problem. The driver's side window motor had to be replaced out of warranty, and even then I was able to negotiate a split of the cost with the dealer because of a TSB I found after the fact.

Rock Dog

The TL has had a few model years under it's belt.

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- The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.

01 Type-S
Satin Silver/Ebony
Dunlop SP5000 215/50/17
Navigation-Spoiler-Muds-Wheel locks-35% Tint-PIAA wedges-V1 and remote

WebToker

Test


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Mustang Killa

GoldTypeS_RENAMED

Yeah, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. For chrissakes, our car is simply a 2 door TL. We share so many parts with that car it's not funny. And yet it's 3rd???

This is one reason why I don't put much stock in these ratings. The other is that I haven't had any problems with my car other than the brakes which were arguably due to my aggressive driving.

mrdeeno

NONONONONONONONO!!!

my car is not worse than a neon!...neither of them!

whether it be based on percentage or not, it DOES matter if you sell 100, 1000, or 1 million!

let's for example say they poll 10% of cars of each model in bout the the first 3 months of ownership.

10% of 100 = 10
10% of 1000 = 100.

now let's say that both have the same probability of problems...let's say 10%.

so out of the 100 cars there is 10 that has a probability of problems
out of the 1000 cars, 100 has problems.

now statistics say that the chances of sampling 10% of each should produce the same results, given that they both have the same % of cars w/ problems...

BUT statistics don't apply here, 'cuz statistics is based on the sampling being done an infinite amount of times.

so for the 100 cars, they missed 90 cars if they checked 10%.

for the 1000 cars, they missed 900 cars!

let's say they find 1 problem out of the 10 for the 100, and they find 3 problems out of 100 for the 1000. now out of the 90 they didn't test, 9 are problem cars, but out of the 900, 7 are problem cars. so now, out of the 90, 9 are bad cars = 10%, but for the 900 cars, it's only about .8% (.0077777778)
and that's what the survey shows, problems FOUND, and then they average it for 100 cars. so this shows that even with the same % of problems for 2 cars, the chances that they missed something is greater for the one that they sold more of...which makes the average look better for that car.

now it just gets worse factoring in who they survey, 'cuz with less cars sold, the chances that more of those buyers are nitpicky or enthusiasts are higher than for more cars sold, and then factor in a coupe buyer vs. a sedan buyer and that adds to the problem.

so this shows how cars w/ the same amount of problems reflect worse on cars the sell less, simply 'cuz statistics DON'T apply unless they sample a gazillion times...which at most they do only several times, if not only once.

how do you explain that the plymouth neon is ranked much lower than the dodge neon? plymouth sells less neons than dodge for obvious reasons, and applying my theory, it should be ranked lower.

this applies to most general cars, but not all.

man, i used up a whole jar of vaseline pulling that one out of my ass!

gto2050

But we have to face up to it.... we have not exactly had a troublefree ownership have we?

1. Sunroof
2. Miss-aligned body panels
3. Right side mirror
4. IMRC actuator
5. Hairy seats (Yes, I still have them!)
6. Interior rear side window molding

Just to name a few. I, for one, am happy but as I said it hasn't exactly been trouble free. Mine has been in for warranty work three times. My previous two cars, 98 Maxima and 94 GS300 never had a problem.

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01 CL-S NightHawk Black/Ebony Bowling Ball Interior
Xephyr CAI
Polarg M6
Solaris 9005
Cupholder Ver 2.0 Part#77237-SOK-A02


gto2050 - The voice of absolutely no reason whatsoever!

fastdriver

While I consider the JD Power results to be more reliable then some other awards/surveys, I would look at the results as a "guide". My 1999 Chrysler 300M was "Motor Trend Car of the Year"!! Right! How much did Chrysler spend for advertising that year? How about this year with the PT Cruiser?

Just read all you can about the car you're interested in and ask questions at boards like this. I didn't with the 300. I fell in love with the looks and the color! Too bad the quality wasn't there to match the other two things or I'd probably be driving a 2001 300M. Then again, with all those "award winning 5-STAR" dealers, I probably wouldn't!

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fastdriver
2001 San Marino Red w/parchment interior. [*]Mudguards[*]Bra[*]No nav.[*]No spoiler.[*]Lojack[*]Four coats of Zaino Z2/Z6 and three of Z5/Z6 so far! That red is gleaming![*] Number 34331.[*]Built 3/01.[*]Bought 3/28/01
fastdriver's CL without Zaino!
fastdriver's CL with 3 coats of Zaino and the last two with 4 coats of Z-2/Z-6
Click here if Yahoo photos don't work.
fastdriver's previous cars. The 300M has Zaino.
Bra pics 5/13/01.


Accept mediocrity and that's all you'll ever get!

rsuzara

I knew I should have gotten a toyota echo instead of the CL-S, dammit

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2001 3.2CL-Type S, No Navig., Satin Silver, Spoiler, mudguards

MyBigBlack S

yeah, almost every driver has complained about the sunroof, so that's gonna jack up our numbers...

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---------
2001 Black CL-S Navi, spoiler, visor, PIAA 19169s

tel1sps

And that's a simple fix.....




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2001 Silver 3.2CLS
Muds, Spoiler, Hardwire 8500, Polarg M-6 lamps, K&N filter #33-2178,
Comptech Headers, Sways, mufflers
Planning: SSR 17X7.5 GT1 Wheels, Brembo Brakes.

cdsinger

The statistical stuff regarding 100 versus 1000 cars is called variance, and there's no question that a smaller population of owners (say, for the CL versus the TL) introduces more variance in the survey results. But variance can work either way -- in other words, cars that don't sell well might have better OR worse ratings that actual problems. So the CL might have just been unlucky due to variance. But I also agree with two other factors discussed here: (1) a lot of CL owners are probably more critical of small problems because our car is more of an enthusiast's car than the TL; and (2) the sunroof problem all by itself has probably dragged the CL ratings way down, even though it's an annoyance rather than a disabling problem (like, say, having your tire tread peel off).

On the other hand, can anyone explain to me why the TL hasn't also suffered from the sunroof problem?

tel1sps

The MDX did even worse 114....

The TL sunroof is a different design (and is able to fully open). The problem we have was due to the new design. I hope they fixed it in production at this point.

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2001 Silver 3.2CLS
Muds, Spoiler, Hardwire 8500, Polarg M-6 lamps, K&N filter #33-2178,
Comptech Headers, Sways, mufflers
Planning: SSR 17X7.5 GT1 Wheels, Brembo Brakes.

RandyMax

Exactly. The result seems fair to me. Honda/Acura could have done a better job on our cars.

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01' CL-S, Silver/Ebony

jojo

Well, I was one of the people who was in the JD Power survey. I gave high marks for the CL, except that I listed the obvious problem with the seat belt retractor and sun roof. My driver side window seal is bad, too, but I didn't know that when I answered the survey.

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2001 CL Type S
Silver
Just like it came from the dealer (except an ashtray)

gto2050

Dang I forgot about the freakin' seatbelt not retracting!

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01 CL-S NightHawk Black/Ebony Bowling Ball Interior
Xephyr CAI
Polarg M6
Solaris 9005
Cupholder Ver 2.0 Part#77237-SOK-A02


gto2050 - The voice of absolutely no reason whatsoever!

gavriil

I am very confused by these results. They dont make sense at all. TL at the top and CL so much worse when they share so many parts. Yes the TL has sold a lot more so the number of problems is more representative cos the population where the sample was derived from was much larget but still. Look at the LS 430. You cant tell me they have sold more of them than our cars at this point. Very weird.

As for the TL using a different sunroof. This is very interesting. Can anyone else confirm that?

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Gabriel
CL Type S
Mag Racer #1

RandyMax

The CLs and TLs are built on different assembly lines I assume? And thus the difference.

The sunroof squeaking problems applies to 00 TLs / 01 CLs / and 00 MDXes. Check the service bulletin.


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01' CL-S, Silver/Ebony

mrdeeno

i don't think it's the squeaking that's the problem here, it's the little visor thing that they ahve a service bulletin for...our sunroof can be the same size as the one on the tl, but ours doesn't open as far, and the size of the opening changes the air-dynamics over that visor, so the tl may not have this problem unless someone decides they want to poke fun at the cl and open their sunroofs only halfway.

i don't think it would be that big of a difference whether they were different lines or not...there would be some differences, but not that many.

but according to what gabe says about the 2 being built in the same plant makes it a little worse for the cl too:

say the rate of problems is 5% for the plant. now because the cl and tl lines are so much alike, it's 5% for the entire batch of cars.

let's say they produce 100 total cars for the day, 25% cls and 75% tls. now out of that 100, 5 are bad. that 5 doesn't differentiate between cls and tls as they are pretty much the same.

and that's where the problem arises, because let's say they produce 100 cars / month, and in month 1, the 5% is isolated in the cl. the chances of finding these is 20%, making it look like the cls are bad.

lets say month 2, the 5% is isolated in the tl, the chances are now only about 6.7% that these are found.

so the tl's don't look as bad as the cls, even though they are made in the same plant under the same rate of problems.


[This message has been edited by mrdeeno (edited 05-22-2001).]

Wyle E. Coyote

The Top 7 are a plain joke! Plus, how can most of these be lumped together in the first place?


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2001 Acura 3.2CL Type-S
Satin Silver/Ebony
No Navi/No Spoiler
Competch springs
35% tint
PIAA 19169 bulbs
K&N 33-2178 air filter

The Aviation Zone

moomaster_99

I guess that's what happens when I don't return that survey form.

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2001 Cl-S Black on Black with Navigation
Black Tint all around (15%~45%)
Weapon-R Dragon Filter
Weapon-R Coil-Overs
Koni Adjustable Struts
Comptech Sway Bars
Comptech Headers (hehehe...I got something for you drchang!!)
14.698 @95.977mph....Sears Point Raceway.I think I need a Level 10 Torque Converter!!
Yes, I know I'm going to hell for wasting gas on Civics....

SilverCL225hp

Based on this report, Toyota/Lexus are crazily reliable.

fastdriver

Some food for thought about cars built in the same plant. Look at the Chrysler LH cars- Intrepid, LHS, Concorde and 300M. They are ALL built in the SAME plant in Canada, with mostly all the SAME parts on the SAME assembly line by the SAME people! HOW can you account for the differences in their rankings?

Some of the CL problems mentioned above must have been addressed by Acura because I got my CL on 3/28/01 and I have no problem with the seat belts or the moonroof. As a matter of fact, no problems at all. I have close to 3,700 miles on the car. I NEVER drive this much, but I love this car! Time will tell how well it holds up. I know it's early, but after 2 months with the 300M that I had, it had already made SEVERAL visits to the dealer for various problems. NO visits yet with the Acura! That's the way I like it!

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fastdriver
2001 San Marino Red w/parchment interior. [*]Mudguards[*]Bra[*]No nav.[*]No spoiler.[*]Lojack[*]Four coats of Zaino Z2/Z6 and three of Z5/Z6 so far! That red is gleaming![*] Number 34331.[*]Built 3/01.[*]Bought 3/28/01
fastdriver's CL without Zaino!
fastdriver's CL with 3 coats of Zaino and the last two with 4 coats of Z-2/Z-6
Click here if Yahoo photos don't work.
fastdriver's previous cars. The 300M has Zaino.
Bra pics 5/13/01.


Accept mediocrity and that's all you'll ever get!

someguy

Why do you think that they are jokes? They have the 7 least amount of problems of all the cars sampled. I doesn't matter how different they are. Kinda funny though, I saw a brand new LS430 on a flatbed yesterday.

RandyMax

We should also take into account the CL is in its first year of production, whereas the TL has been out since 98(?). Most of the bugs should have been, or better be, flushed out by now...

This theory, btw, doesn't work with Lexus. Look at the LS430! It has just come out last year and it's No.1!

Hats of to Toyota / Lexus.

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01' CL-S, Silver/Ebony

Sypher

I filled out the survey, too. The only thing I listed was the seat belt. I haven't really noticed a problem with the moonroof, but I only open it with the windows down and the radio way up!

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Sypher (www.sypher.com)
'01 Black CL Type-S
Valentine-1

mrdeeno

if anyone is immune to first year productino problems, though, it would be lexus...although they do have problems, just not as many as others and especially not on their flagship.

i think most flagships from most better companies are gonna have very few problems though, i wouldn't doubt that the rl replacement would be up by the top in it's first year.

but again, most of those buyers are older (they can afford to pay for that) and don't notice that the trunk is 1/16" off alignment and wouldn't be revving the engine to 3800rpm while staring at the engine.