This came up in another thread, and I didnt want to take that one off topic as it was a pretty good thread

To catch up:



So, lets brain storm. What do we do about improving traction...

 

Get rid of the rubber Radius rod bushings for something solid like a Heim joint

 

Or fab something like they made for the prelude

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...d.php?t=329572

 

Thats what I want, but its difficult to incorporate that into the stock crossmember. Which is why I want to replace it entirely.

Thats what I was thinking of, just without the center brace (since we have two on each side instead). Thats an interesting motor mount too. I like it, but the welds have to be very strong. The rear mount would also have to be addressed to stop the engine from "squatting".

 

i think some should consider this and a tech at koni told me it could be done no prob... if you have KONI yellows they can adjust the front valving so that when they are adjusted to full stiff the front end would risist lifting as it is right now its only compression that adjusts we are reversing it

 

DIY http://dazed.home.bresnan.net/adjustable



Wonder if these will fit or if they make different sizes. http://www.itisevolving.com/clients/...oducts_id=1620

 

The Mustang mod is brilliant. The only complication is that our radius rods are bent to fit properly (pass side more extreme then driver). That would make it difficult for adjustments.

 

You should be able to make the oem radius rods solid mounting rods if that's all it is.

You would just need a perfect fiting spacer to to hold the rod threw the oem location that allows no movement and then add washers and nuts to each side to get adjustability.

Or am I missing more ?

 

That would cause binding. The radius rods function is to allow the suspension to move up and down while stopping it from traveling front/back. A traction bar setting still allows movement, but it is much more controlled.

 

I see.
You have to incorparate a solid pivot point.

Who's going to get to the fabbing ?

 

I would love to see a setup Like option 1. but not sure how realistic that would be to fab up. There are more piece's of the sub frame tied into the cross member, it's not going to be a bolt in like the EF or prelude. But that Mustang mod has some real promise for our setup. The hardest part will be matching the curves, unless you just try and modify the current radius rod and change to end to sleeve and heim joints.

 

This is exactly what Im thinking, I just need time to get under there are measure.

Its not like we need tons of adjustment, so Im thinking it will be perfectly fine to use sleeves and thread the stock radius rod.

 

That's probably the best and easiest way. The braking response will probably improve also. The rods look like they are bent to clear the engine components. It curves under, if it curved outward it appears it would be close to the tire at full lock. But it might not be a problem seeing that most people are running lower offset wheels than stock.

BTW, the lower arm and radius rod works the same as the upper A-arm. If you draw a line between the two upper A-arm bushing, the ball joint pivots about that axis. Same with the lower, draw a line between the front radius rod bushing and the lower control arm bushing, the lower ball joint will pivot about that axis.

Having said that, putting a solid mount on the front radius rod will help, but you'll put more stress on the upper A-arm and the bushings. When I did my upper ball joints, I noticed that the arm is just thin stamped steel. I could flex it in my hands. Using harder bushing and boxing the stock arm or getting a tubular arm will probably be a lot better than just the radius rod mod alone.

Another thing I see is the front beam has big bushings between it and the frame. #7,8 12 and 13. The rod end radius rod will help but the front beam will still move unless you replace the rubber bushings with something more solid, urethane, aluminum or steel.

Now the problem will be the vibration of the engine being transmitted to whole car and the harshness of the suspension.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Prelude traction bar front mount looks like it's mounts directly the frame rails with no bushings like the CL.

 

Correct, the aftermarket traction bar/front crossmember for the Civic/Prelude is bolted straight to the frame.

The stock arrangement is very similar to the CL, with a bulky, stamped steel crossmember with bushings for the radius rods.

I personally don't care about the vibrations. I care about getting power to the ground. Thank you for the additional info. It will come in handy. Building a tubular upper a-arm would be really nice, Ill have to look into that.

I wish it was simple enough to replace the entire stock front crossmember like the Civic/Prelude, but with the way it mounts and the arms that extend to the rear crossmember (along with the complex shape), thats not looking likely.

 

You could modify the stock radius rods to accommodate heim joints pretty easy.

 

Traction bars are just a band aid. In a perfect world the lower control arms would have to be redesigned a different way. I had a long discussion about this at my friends fabrication shop (rameybuilt) a couple months ago.

 

It may be considered a band-aid, but its one of the few real options.

 

For an independent, there is no "traction bars". The term is used because it prevented wheel hop and therefore helped traction. RWD traction bars actually use the rotational force of the axle to force the axle downward and puts more weight on the tires but this only works for solid axles.

I'd be curious as to how the lower control arm could be designed to achieve this. If it's the camber curve, that's not the problem. Every high HP car with an IRS at the drive end is plagued with wheel hop and traction issues and the only cure are band aids.

 

Waiting on this...

Don't know enough on suspension to contribute, but very interested.

 

Yes, traction bars on fwd cars are not for traction. They are to keep the suspension components in place. They help with wheel hop and torque steer.

 

My thoughts exactly! That's why I love to lurk around on here! Just a thought also if we need any parts for "testing" I'm sure we can get Henry to chip in some of his suspension parts at a reasonable price. His CLS6 is still sitting at his job, just drove by there yesterday.

 

This might help

 

Damn, I thought he got rid of it months ago. I miss that car

Those are decent but there is no adjustability for the radius rod. If you're lowered, the length of the rod doesnt change. But your caster does (it pushes the LCA towards the rear of the vehicle).

If I decide to keep the CL, I plan on actually testing some of ideas I have. But at this moment that is a very big if.

 

Now you are thinking of selling your cl also?

 

Someone mentioned this earlier, but you could take the radius rods to a machine shop and turn down an extra 1" or so and shim to the desired caster. Right now you can only adjust for less caster. Or instead of shims, have the rod machined down and threaded enough to use nuts to adjust.

 

I might be parting it out. But Im still on the fence. If I do, the engine is going in my Civic.

Thats another thing I was thinking of, I just have to find a machine shop I'd trust. I really wanted to go to a solid mount on then using heim joints though, but Ill take what I can get.

 

Sure there is with that design. 3 different ways infact.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

Sure. You could shim the actual mount to get the desired caster or you could shim the radius rods forward or back to get the desired caster. They are rigid and would keep caster where you wand it far better than stock. The only reason they use rubber for oem is for vibration isolation. Just like all the bushings on the car.

 

I can understand how you'd shim it back, but shimming it forward would be a bit difficult with the frame bracket. Taking the design of those solid bushings into consideration, you'd have to shim the bearing forward (since its a compression mount between the two halves) along with the front half of the bearing housing to bring the radius rod forward. But then you may run into interference issues during suspension travel, since the rod could come in contact with the back half of the housing. Its probably not likely aside from extreme situations, but not a risk Im willing to take.

Now, those solid bushing would be ideal if/when I find a machine shop I trust that can add more threads to the radius rod.

 

It would all depend on placement. If you placed it a little further forward it would allow you to shim it either way. As for the radius rod contacting anything, the radius rod doesn't move up or down much there. There is more than enough room. Go jack up the car once and look with the wheel hanging. With the car supported take the jack and lift up on the control arm look and see how much clearance you would need. It will probably surprise you

 

I've been under the car and have seen how much motion the stock bushings take (when I replaced them, I moved the rod around to see the range of motion). It was a lot but as you said, it depends how far forward you put the solid bushing.

The Prelude solid bushings that were once available are no longer, so Ive got to look around and see if any other applications will work.