Six Shifter

... and the answer to both were "no". Spoke to Craig (could have been Greg) and questioned about possible modifications/upgrades which would allow for EDFC use with the CL. He went and spoke to an R&D person and came back and stated that they were not going to come up with this item. Stated that you could make an effort to accomodate the fronts by cutting out some of the underside of the hood, but this could lead to other problems down the road (dents in hood etc). He also mentioned that a few local shops had tried to work this issue, but their responses were all no go (basically further confirmation of what blxmjx has already discovered). Then asked about a CL specific application, and was also told that they had made no decision to follow up on this either. Did mention the ability to upgrade the springs @ $50/$60 per, which is also consistent with everything that was mentioned in a thread that slyraskal started back in February. He stated that their research felt that the Accord part did work fine in our application, but again reverted back to the upgrade which is available.

If anybody (Rod, Eric L, etc) want to follow up on this with other people they have spoken within the company, please feel free, as I don't want to pass along inconsistent information. There are some other things I want to find out about this product, but will hold off on those questions for those of you who have purchased TEINs until the time gets closer to make the purchase.

peiqinglong

I'll be getting my upgraded springs soon...I'll tell u how it goes.

Six Shifter

please do ... believe somebody mentioned that you could go from the normal rates of 7k/4k front/rear to 9k/6k, but I asked this guy and he said you could also split the difference (also can get a weaker rate if you prefer, although I don't know why anyone would want to do that). one thing I forgot to mention, but I asked if the Accord kit was based on the 4 or 6 banger, and he told me the 6, and acknowledged the addit weight of the CL over the AV6.

liquid_x

if there are no CL specific springs then what the hell are they putting an application for it in their ad in magazines

Six Shifter

hence my suggestion that somebody who has this information contact them directly as I just did and question them on the inconsist data. not having seen the adds in the mags that you are talking about, I can't address your question. could be that they are talking about a CL application which happens to be the Accord kit (w/wo upgrade)? what mags are you seeing this in?

liquid_x

tein's ad in the lastest edition of super street

peiqinglong

They don't have a "specific" kit, but they figured since we shared parts with the Accord, they could make a few extra dollars by selling to the CL/TL people too. I'm hoping the upgraded springs (9k/6k) will be better. At the moment, I'm only getting the fronts for now since I have more problems in the front.

Six Shifter

Couldn't find a copy of SuperStreet, but did look thru an ImportTuner this afternoon and found a full page TEIN ad. Yes, they do list seperate applications for the Honda Accord and the CL, but as we all know by checking the TEIN website the "applications" are one in the same. One could choose to read the ad as 'unique' applications for each model, but that wouldn't be correct.

peiqinglong - the problems you're having in the fronts related to the bottoming out that I've seen you mention before?

LiLMaN

Thanks Y2K3CL for researching... b/c Im pretty close to purchasing the TEINS. Think I should hold off? b/c Mr. Big told me his coilovers are fine and nothing bad ever happened.. so far (knock on wood)

Six Shifter

Well ... after starting my conversation with Craig/Greg yesterday, the first question I asked him was why they don't answer their email since their website says any questions please ask - plus you get an automatic response saying will respond ASAP. After I post what this guy tells me after talking to the R&D guy, I just received the following email from TEIN:

"Sorry for the late reply. We are in plans in making a top mount that can be use along side with the EDFC but as of right now we do not have a release date.

Thank you for your interest in TEIN High Performance Suspension Products."

So, tomorrow I'll call again and ask whoever answers the phone WTFO! And since this information has been completely inconsistent, I'll press again about a CL specific application to see if they give the same answer twice.

Zapata

y3kcls,
I heard there was a CL specific kit coming out with the EDFC kit. Let's hope you get some better answers tomorrow.

showgunz

Anybody doing a GB on Tein's? Just wondering. Thanks.

Six Shifter

Update as of 5:51 EST ...

Just spoke to Collin - who as it turns out was the individual who forwarded me the email last night - The reason for the delay in responding to my email was that they had to go back to Japan with my questions. The current story is as follows:

1) No/NO intention of coming out with a CL specific SS application. The Accord/TL/CL platform will continue to be the only platform available for our cars. If one wants the upgraded spring rate (1 or 2k more than the standard 7/4 f/r), this will be available from $50/$60 per corner.

2) They are/ARE currently prototyping a CL specific EDFC application! What this is going to entail is replacing the OEM Upper Mount (rubber) with a steel unit which will allow for the front EDFC motors to be mounted and used on our cars. Apparently they think that by replacing the rubber mount with a thinner piece of steel, there will be enough of a recess at the top of the tower to allow for the motors to be mounted. I asked about possible metal on metal rubbing/grinding/etc, and he said probably so(?). Basically this is something that they are looking into due to queries (demand?), but there is no projected release date, as after TEIN Japan comes up with the design it will have to be tested etc. Guess we could enlist blxmjx to test this new fit once released like he did when he discovered that the current EDFC for the TL doesn't transfer. The "specific" application in this instance means that this unit will not/NOT work on the TL or the Accord platform, unlike the SS's which do move across platforms.

So, it appears that if anybody is wanting to get TEINs (like I will be shortly) the only thing you really have to decide at this time is whether or not you want/need to go for the addit spring rate. Greg told me on Tuesday that they 'normally' don't believe there is any need for increasing the spring rates on our cars despite the addit weight over the AV6. If the EDFC does come out, looks like the only addit work would be in removing the fronts to access the upper mounts and replace them with whatever TEIN is trying to develop to accomodate the EDFC front motor mounts.

Hope this helps anybody who has been following this topic since it was discussed back in February (and earlier I guess).

Zapata

y2k3cls,
Awesome thanks for the udpate!! Wow went to japan to ask your questions huh? Hmmm I'll compare the spring rates and decide, i really am not sure if i'll go with a higher rate or just stick with what they give.

lou_RENAMED

why not just go with Zeal are the Teins as good

peiqinglong

PM blxmjx.

peiqinglong

The Zeal b6 Function's spring rate is 12/9...compared to Tein's 7/4...that BIG difference in the spring rate means a much more bouncy and uncomfortable ride. The B6 is intended as a track only coilover and some people may not be able to handle that much more "stress".

lou_RENAMED

isn't it better to go with the upgraded spring setting to offset the additional weight of the CL-S compared to the accord V6 IMO

lou_RENAMED

what about the b2 I haven't seen anybody with one of those on

Six Shifter

I guess that depends on a number of factors - any of which are probably dependant upon your own particular situation. A couple of people have complained about bottoming out, but we really don't know if this is due to piss poor road conditions, "enthusiastic" driving habits (re-abusive), or a combination of both. TEIN offers the upgraded springs to those who want them, with the knowledge that there is a recommended upper limit in order to avoid having to re-valve the shock assembly(?). I think it also might depend on how low you are going to go. Mr. Big seems to have a somewhat more noticeable drop with his 19's, but I haven't seen anything from him about problems, so maybe he is more aware of road conditions and drives in those areas accordingly. Believe it was mattg who recently got some TEINs, but don't recall seeing anything from him one way or the other. I might consider getting a slightly upgraded setting for the rears only to offset the addit weight that my subbox has added, as evidenced by the current 60's Mustang look my car currently exhibits (gap = 3" up front, and 2" in back). It's for this reason, coupled with comments from both Dean and PAA that the Comptechs "may" level out the car, that I'm probably going to go the TEIN route, but need to get more input from the current group of owners before install.

mr. big

what kinda problems do u have in the fronts?? Mine seem to be just fine, unless there is something im overlooking???

moomaster_99

Since your springs aren't really stiff enough to compensate for the extra weight of the CL. The struts (which were valved for an AV^, read: 300lb. lighter car) will have to work harder. It's fine as long as the road is somewhat level. You tend to bottom out not from aggressive driving as much as from quick changes in the gradation of the road. Actually, from my experience, if you maintain a good amount of speed on the freeway(which will push down on the car...and make the spring start to work) the ride is actually smoother v. driving on the street.

Zapata

For the increased spring rate for the TeinSS.....are there increments?

Six Shifter

out of the box they are 7k front and 4k back (don't really know what unit of measure the "k" refers to, but may be kilogram). TEIN doesn't recommend going beyond 9k front and 6k back, as they believe this is the outside limit you can go to before you have to revalve the struts - but I asked and was told you can go with the intermediate 8/5, or any combo you want. You could also go with a weaker rate, but I wouldn't presume that this would be recommended since they are quasi borderline to begin with.

Rod

Plus the Zeals are quite a bit more expensive.

BTW, thanks for the update, Y2K3CL-S. So I guess if you're going to go with Teins there's no longer a reason to wait it out.

DtEW

That's an interesting declaration, not saying that its necessarily wrong...

To get a true grasp of your spring rates, you need to factor in the shock compression ratio, which is an extremely important consideration when calculating effectivespring rates for double-wishbone suspensions, which the car in question and my own car are both equipped with.

My effective ratio is ~3:2 both front and rear. Past Hondas that I have owned is around this too; there are common constraints to how double-wishbone suspension can be built on production cars.

I'm running 20k/17k for a ~3300lb car. My balance is 54/46, so I'm putting down ~1800lbs on the front axle and ~1500lbs on the rear axle. Considering that you guys have both a heavier car and more weight biased over a single axle, it would stand to reason that matching how I'm currently sprung, you guys would need something on the order of 24kg/mm on the front axle .

(Now, it does need to be admitted that my car is tuned past track use and the hard rates are for canyon running on irregular roads.)

The point I'm getting at is that spring rates in themselves aren't a final determinant in acceptable ride quality. In fact, much of the spring rates that we commonly encounter are way undersprung for real performance work. What is more important in determining ride quality than spring rates is the shocks' ability to cope with the high spring rates, IOW a rebound damping range high enough to control the rebound, and a compression damping range similarly high enough to control weight transfer-mediated compression.

So I'm saying, it is not a good idea to pigeonhole the Zeals as hard-riding based on spring specs alone.

Zapata

Y2K3CL-S,
Right now, I"m thinking to go with the 8/5 setup.

DTEW,
Well said.

Six Shifter

I'm thinking along the same lines, or maybe even a 7/5, since my major concern is the addit weight my sub is seemingly placing on my stock springs (3" gap front/2" gap back) after only 5 months of install. problem is that you have some users like peiqinglong who seems to be having problems with the fronts (bottoming out?) and then you have mr. big with a nice drop and 19's and absolutely no reported problems. that's one reason why, when I get closer to making the decision to purchase/install, I'm going to ask those with the TEIN's to provide info regarding settings, amount of drop, problems (if any), and if they had to do it over again whether or not they go with the increased spring rate. If you're close to doing it now, feel free to steal my questions and start gathering this info - unless you're already committed to going the 8/5 route.

Six Shifter

also just spent about 1/2 hour on the phone with the area rep from Speciality Products talking to him about the use of SPC camber kits. Very accomodating, and passed me info regarding sellers/installers in the area (no prices as of yet, but told me to call when I got closer to getting). Guy sounds like he knows his shit, which was appreciated. Checked them out because I saw Titand19 recommend these camber kits in another thread. fyi

Zapata

Y2K3CL-S,
Well i'm prolly a couple of months away from purchasing them. Just trying to sort out all the details so i'm not making a decision at the last minute. Perhaps we could meet up after you get yours installed so i can see how the install went? Will you be getting the EDFC for the rear? I will for sure as taking out the back seat is not something I want to do often.

Zapata

I think the comptech springs are about 9.3f/7.3r. I think I'll go with a 8/6. That'll be a nice setup i think. The stock tein setup can't be enough i can see why people are bottoming out.

Six Shifter

I'm in somewhat the same situation as I'll probably wait until late spring/early summer b4 I get mine, unless I stop giving my winnings in AC back to the casino. Looks like peiqinglong will be able to give us the first review of the upgraded springs, at least for the fronts, if he follows thru. Just got my sways, so have to decide if I want to get tires now or wait until I get the TEINs. This is based on the recommendation of the Speciality Products guy I mentioned earlier as he recommended setting everything to zero after the coilovers/camber kits are installed and then running the car for about 1k miles to see where the wear may appear - and then getting new rubber on the rims as opposed to what I was going to do which was install sways and new rubber and then get the TEINs. If you think about it, it does make sense in as much as you probably won't have to replace the new tires as soon, and since the stock Michelins are garbage anyway, why not use them as the baseline for your final alignment settings? Besides, it'll only take me 2 weeks or less to put 1K miles on the car, so no real loss there.

EricL

I would hope that front/rear scaling might be taken "too far." Handling dynamics are not just a matter of static front-rear weight distribution.

I don't know why a "stab" at the factory spring rates (about a linearized point) might not be a good place to start (if it is true that the springs are indeed progressive on the stock CLS).

There are at least TWO people that are hitting the bump stops that are using the Teins with the current factory stock springs.

IMO, the general rule-of-thumb is: the springs/shocks are designed for the Accord. If the spring rate is just too low, especially with a bit of lowering, the "easy" fix is a dose of overkill compression and rebound. This probably feels and works great on smooth roads (and follows general track practice of designing cars with very high damping for track/super-street application). However, there is a point where someone might want to walk through the arithmetic on the Teins (as made for the Accord) vs. the Teins (as made for the CLS) to get a better feel of the MATH.

Some cars that are “under-springed” are also “underdamped”.

IMO, it "seems" that there are a few Tein people who are having problems that might be helped with a mild boost in spring rate. (I don’t think the wheel-to-spring ratio is too different between the Accord and the CLS/TL).

AS for the effective spring rate, it might be useful to measure the wheel displacement vs. spring displacement using a sand bag or heavy butt located on the front and/or rear of the car... This would provide an exact ratio to work with and could allow some comparison relative to the Accord.

Now, toss in some lowering (we discussed this) and the roll couple could also get involved in this…

You point out the need for a little fact finding. Perhaps a few pencil, paper, and calculator expeditions wouldn’t hurt before spending some money?

Zapata

Y2K3CL-S,
EricL is refering to the STOCK TEINSS SPRING RATE

Six Shifter

tks Zapata - thought that was the case, but wanted to be sure that there wasn't something I didn't totally understand.

EricL

I CALLED TEIN TODAY AND SPOKE WITH GREG (at length).

I also asked if he could talk to the R&D folks.


1. They ARE STILL PLANING ON coming out with a EDFC version of the setup for the CL/CLS (they said this was “confirmed”)

2. The date is NOT set and it would be late summer at the earliest.

3. Existing SS shocks would not be able to work with the EDFC setup.


I called and prefaced the conversation by mentioning that I had called a number of times previously and asked if the information I had was still "good." The answer was YES.

I mentioned that some members had called and were told that they were told that EDFC was not going to be available for the CL/CLS. I spent about 40 minutes on the phone. I think there may be some confusion about what “available” means (the EDFC will NOT be able to fit on the current SS shocks when used on the CL/CLS [well, at least in the front of the car]).


I was definitely told that the current SS shocks will not work with the steppers without hitting the hood. I didn't get into any long discussion about the rears.

At first, Greg said that they were going to have to make a "Flex Kit" (one specific for the CL). After asking about spring rates and other issues I asked if he could talk to the R&D guys for some info. I was told that there was one R&D guy for the US and he is pretty busy. He said that they were going to change the setup used for the CL. The current system is basically an Accord setup. The spring rates are designed for an Accord. The updated design – that is not in production -- is supposed to be designed specifically for the CL/CLS. The change in design is supposed to allow the stepper motors to fit. They ARE STILL PLANNING on working on other import and domestic cars BEFORE working on the CLS. I asked if this was "iffy" and was told that they were fuzzy on the date, but they were planning on building a kit for the CLS. They used the word: “confirmed.”

Some comments/notes:

1. The shocks as they come could probably use slightly beefier springs. 8/5 vs. the current 7/4 spring rates (front/rear) would not require a re-valving of the shocks. The springs cost $50 each and are available. (The stock spring rate used in the “stock” Teins for the CLS, in lbs/in, is: 392 front/ 224 rear).

2. If someone is hoping or planning on adding EDFC, don't buy the current SS setup (that is what I was told over and over again). (Someone may be very talented and figure out how to machine and/or adapt the system. I sure don’t.)

3. There is no firm date for the updated EDFC compatible coilovers. I could not get a date outside of the "late summer" (and that is not etched in stone).

4. The shock's rebound and compression characteristics can only be modified to a limited extent in the US. I was told that they do not have a shock dyno and/or the parts to change the valuing to alter some of the more subtle and advanced characteristics of the shocks. However, with enough money and time, anything is possible (this is a very, very long story). They can modify the shocks to compensate for even larger springs.

5. I was told that the updated Teins would have a shorter body/longer stroke that the current shocks and along with other changes would allow for the inclusion of the steppers.

Six Shifter

EricL -
Thanks for following up on my request to you to talk to these people. I've come to the conclusion that these (apparently young) Japanese American's don't really know a hell of a lot about their product, as each successive conversation with them seems to result in a complete 180 from the previous conversation - and now I see that Greg has reversed both what he told me and what Collin told me on some of these issues. Greg said definitely 'no' to the EDFC for the CL, which Collin reversed and Greg now agrees with ... Colling told me that the new EDFC which was being prototyped would only require the replacement of the OEM Upper mount, and now Greg says that the current SS fronts won't work with whatever they're working on ... Collin told me that the only thing 'specific' to the CL application was the replacement upper mount and the fact that this would not have any applications to either the TL or the Accord platforms ... both Greg and Collin told me there was no intention of creating a specific CL kit as they felt the AV6 kit was sufficient ...
I am unfortunately of the opinion that they get a sense for what the customer knows about the subject matter and adapt their responses accordingly, which doesn't really give me a whole lot of confidence. If it wasn't for the reviews that have been provided by the people on this site who have commented on these I'd have serious doubts about looking into this product, however I have specific reasons for not believing that the Comptechs will address my specific concerns, and I don't really feel like paying up to 2x more to go the Zeal route. Now it looks like you either have the choice of waiting to see if they ever come out with something in the summer - either an EDFC application, a CL specific "kit", or a combination of both - or just get what is currently available, upgrade accordingly as indicated, and be happy that you have something which is better than what you're currently riding on with the knowledge that you may have been able to do better if only you just waited ...
Anyway, props for helping out a novice in this arena.

anthony chirico

i am looking to put a drop on my car in the next month or so but the comptechs aren't enough of a drop for me plus i also have the added weight in my trunk of stereo equipment so i want an even look front to rear.i was thinking about the teins because of their adjustability,but dont know now.
any other options or should i try the teins.