Jet ECU upgrade
07-31-2001, 01:12 PM
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Jet ECU upgrade
Just got off the phone with Jet and they offer to reprogram your ECU for $299 with a claim of 9-11 hp at the wheels without voiding the warranty. Opinions?
07-31-2001, 02:25 PM
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There are a few things about this that disturb me:
1. The ECU is not programmable. If there is a software issue, the dealer replaces the ECU. The only 2 vehicles in the Honda family that have ECU's with "write" capability are the RSX and 2001 Civic. Without "write" capability, how is Jet changing the factory parameters?
2. ECU's modified by Jet are not covered by the factory warranty. If the altered values in the ECU can be attributed to the failure of any other part, that repair will also not be covered.
3. What is the impact to OBD II systems and emissions? Is Jet marketing this modification for "off road use only"?
4. What changes are being made to the factory parameters? Increasing peak hp and torque #'s is wonderful, but the single biggest performance gain to be made is in timing control. In stock form the ECU retards the timing between gears. This is to smooth the shift (the general public doesn't care for hard shifts), and extend transmission life.
1. The ECU is not programmable. If there is a software issue, the dealer replaces the ECU. The only 2 vehicles in the Honda family that have ECU's with "write" capability are the RSX and 2001 Civic. Without "write" capability, how is Jet changing the factory parameters?
2. ECU's modified by Jet are not covered by the factory warranty. If the altered values in the ECU can be attributed to the failure of any other part, that repair will also not be covered.
3. What is the impact to OBD II systems and emissions? Is Jet marketing this modification for "off road use only"?
4. What changes are being made to the factory parameters? Increasing peak hp and torque #'s is wonderful, but the single biggest performance gain to be made is in timing control. In stock form the ECU retards the timing between gears. This is to smooth the shift (the general public doesn't care for hard shifts), and extend transmission life.
07-31-2001, 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by SSMAN:
In stock form the ECU retards the timing between gears. This is to smooth the shift (the general public doesn't care for hard shifts), and <STRONG>extend transmission life.</STRONG>
In stock form the ECU retards the timing between gears. This is to smooth the shift (the general public doesn't care for hard shifts), and <STRONG>extend transmission life.</STRONG>
07-31-2001, 02:32 PM
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hes got a point. plus, when i think ogolden1's ecu screws up everytime the dealer tries to plug into it. i dont really know, u should ask him, just trying to help
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07-31-2001, 02:37 PM
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I also remember people posting that the upgrade gave them no performance gains whatsoever on the CL. I think some people even had their money returned. I beleive only people that live close to JET were able to go in and actually have them re-tune/reprogram the chip to actually gain some power.
07-31-2001, 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by SSMAN:
<STRONG>There are a few things about this that disturb me:
1. The ECU is not programmable. If there is a software issue, the dealer replaces the ECU. The only 2 vehicles in the Honda family that have ECU's with "write" capability are the RSX and 2001 Civic. Without "write" capability, how is Jet changing the factory parameters?
</STRONG>
<STRONG>There are a few things about this that disturb me:
1. The ECU is not programmable. If there is a software issue, the dealer replaces the ECU. The only 2 vehicles in the Honda family that have ECU's with "write" capability are the RSX and 2001 Civic. Without "write" capability, how is Jet changing the factory parameters?
</STRONG>
07-31-2001, 03:08 PM
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Our ECU's in our cars have two chips: one for the transmission and the other for engine performance. Neither of these chips can be altered period. Once a chip is burned, it can not be reprogrammed. A new chip (which are unattainable at this time)must be burned with a hi-po program to increase power at all. Honda has gone through many lengths so that the chip could not be tampered with. If anyone can do it...it will be G-Force or Hondata. They have done many chips for differents cars with Dyno Sheets to prove performance. Don't belive me call them. Speak with Tadashi at G-Force 1-310-782-8278. Their in Torrance, California.
Don't waste your money on the Jet Chip, rather buy sway bars and springs and enjoy the limits of your car on the road.
BLOWN 331
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]
Don't waste your money on the Jet Chip, rather buy sway bars and springs and enjoy the limits of your car on the road.
BLOWN 331
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]
07-31-2001, 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by gavriil:
<STRONG>
Nice job with this post. Do you work at a dealer. How do you know about the write capabilities of the ECUs at Hondas? Very interesting chief
</STRONG>
<STRONG>
Nice job with this post. Do you work at a dealer. How do you know about the write capabilities of the ECUs at Hondas? Very interesting chief
</STRONG>
07-31-2001, 03:22 PM
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Blown,
Have you talked to Hondata recently? What is their progress? I remember you talking to them a couple of months back, and they said they would have something in a few months. Any word?
Thanks,
Spiro
Have you talked to Hondata recently? What is their progress? I remember you talking to them a couple of months back, and they said they would have something in a few months. Any word?
Thanks,
Spiro
Originally posted by BLOWN 331:
<STRONG>Our ECU's in our cars have two chips: one for the transmission and the other for engine performance. Neither of these chips can be altered period. Once a chip is burned, it can not be reprogrammed. A new chip (which are unattainable at this time)must be burned with a hi-po program to increase power at all. Honda has gone through many lengths so that the chip could not be tampered with. If anyone can do it...it will be G-Force or Hondata. They have done many chips for differents cars with Dyno Sheets to prove performance. Don't belive me call them. Speak with Tadashi at G-Force 1-310-782-8278. Their in Torrance, California.
Don't waste your money on the Jet Chip, rather buy sway bars and springs and enjoy the limits of your car on the road.
BLOWN 331
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>Our ECU's in our cars have two chips: one for the transmission and the other for engine performance. Neither of these chips can be altered period. Once a chip is burned, it can not be reprogrammed. A new chip (which are unattainable at this time)must be burned with a hi-po program to increase power at all. Honda has gone through many lengths so that the chip could not be tampered with. If anyone can do it...it will be G-Force or Hondata. They have done many chips for differents cars with Dyno Sheets to prove performance. Don't belive me call them. Speak with Tadashi at G-Force 1-310-782-8278. Their in Torrance, California.
Don't waste your money on the Jet Chip, rather buy sway bars and springs and enjoy the limits of your car on the road.
BLOWN 331
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]</STRONG>
07-31-2001, 05:04 PM
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E1828 is correct....I work for Honda Motor Company
From my experience there are only 2 methods for improving performance through computer controls:
1. Create your own hybrid ECU by incorporating a programmable chip to control engine dynamics. This would require that you have the factory ECU program on your PC/laptop, a PGM-FI tester, AIM (Acura Interface Module), and extensive experience in programming engine dynamics.
2. Utilize an after-market system to manage engine controls. I installed the Accel DFI (digital fuel injection) system for a friend, and it seems to work very well. You'll have complete control over fuel and timing.
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: SSMAN ]
From my experience there are only 2 methods for improving performance through computer controls:
1. Create your own hybrid ECU by incorporating a programmable chip to control engine dynamics. This would require that you have the factory ECU program on your PC/laptop, a PGM-FI tester, AIM (Acura Interface Module), and extensive experience in programming engine dynamics.
2. Utilize an after-market system to manage engine controls. I installed the Accel DFI (digital fuel injection) system for a friend, and it seems to work very well. You'll have complete control over fuel and timing.
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: SSMAN ]
07-31-2001, 09:24 PM
#18
Oh...Behave!
WOOOOHOOOO! Wait a minute! I can speak from experience, IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!
And NO, I don't have a Dyno sheet to show you, so don't ask! ...But, my "butt dyno" feels the difference, and my G-Tech showed a 4/10 sec difference in 0-60 time, and I raced Blown 331 to 80 MPH (he had headers, I didn't) I pulled him off the line at low to mid-range, he THEN pulled on me as we got into the higher RPM's because he had headers! And I only lost by 1 car length! Also, my car was FASTER than the other stock/CAI cars!
Obviously, I am slightly biased, as I PAID $$$$ for the mod; however, IF it where a waste of $$$$, I WOULD BE THE FIRST ONE TO TELL YOU!
SSMAN, I truely respect your knowledge, and the fact that you work for Honda. HOWEVER, why do you call our "PCM", an "ECU"??? (Please, I DON'T mean to offend, but it doesn't show much credibility!) And why do you guys say that the chip is NON-programmable, when I HAD MINE REPROGRAMMED AND REMAPPED by Jet!!!
There is alot of misinformation regarding this topic (ie.) warranty, emissions, CARB, approval, how it works, etc...
Please read the following!!!
(Flame on!)
FAQ
Will JET Performance tuning void my warranty?
No. Federal law prohibits a dealer from voiding your warranty just because you are using aftermarket speed equipment, with only two exceptions: the warranty can be voided if the aftermarket part causes damage or adversely affects the emissions or the emissions system. In recent documents produced by the SEMA (Specialty Equipment Market Association), a trade association-representing specialty automotive parts manufacturers, and the following quotes have been extracted:
"The vehicle manufacturer is not allowed to void the vehicle warranty just because aftermarket equipment is installed on the vehicle. This protection for consumers is the result of a parts self-certification program developed by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA).
"Under the program, if a parts maker completes the EPA process of self-certifying its parts, the vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty even if the certified part has failed and is directly responsible for the warranty claim. In cases where such a failed aftermarket part is responsible for a warranty claim, the manufacturer must arrange a settlement with the part manufacturer, but the new vehicle warrant is not void under the law.
"If the failure to honor a claim involves the new-vehicle warranty, and it appears that the manufacturer is improperly denying a claim, the incident should be reported to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The FTC is responsible for monitoring compliance with the warranty law; the agency's telephone number is 202/326-3128."
IS JET Performance Power Tuning emissions legal?
Yes. All JET Performance Power Tuning products are 50 state emissions legal. They do not change the emissions at all from the stock tuning chip for any Federal or local emissions test. C.A.R.B. (California Air Resources Board) has issued Executive Order numbers D-234 through D-234-4 covering all JET Performance Power Chips, making JET Performance chips the most complete line of high-performance chips that can legally be sold, installed, and driven in the state of California. Because of C.A.R.B.'s very rigid rules concerning exhaust emissions, the Environmental Protection Agency ( E.P.A. ) accepts C.A.R.B. approval as evidence that an aftermarket part is clean and suitable for use in all other states.
What performance increase can I expect from JET Performance Tuning?
At JET Performance, we carefully dyno and track test every product we sell...in fact, it is these tests that tell us when we have the best possible tuning. Of course, the power gains are different for each engine family. However, power gains range from about 10 Horsepower to over 50 H.P. on supercharged or turbocharged engines, resulting in a 2 to 7 car length improvements in the quarter mile. Zero to 60 M.P.H. improvements are typically about 1/2 second.
What's the difference between Stage 1 and Stage 2 Power Tuning?
JET Performance has two types of tuning available for some vehicles depending on the modifications to the vehicle vehicle. The JET stage 1 is programmed for maximum power increases on a stock vehicle. The JET stage 2 is designed for peak horsepower in cases where the engine has been modified to run cooler and the exhaust system is less restrictive than stock,
If JET Performance Power Tuning is so great, why didn't the factories do it that way?
The factory program is designed for the average driver and is set to take a wide variety of operating conditions and driving styles into consideration. Consequently, stock calibrations aren't set to provide maximum power because they have to accommodate drivers who may use poor quality gasoline. For a real hi-performance person, premium is all they put in their vehicle. At JET Performance, we optimize the spark and fuel curves over the entire RPM band from just off idle right up to the redline for maximum power and performance from the best gasoline.
Can I run regular gasoline?
No. All tuning is designed and calibrated for 91 or higher-octane fuel. In some cases 89 octane may be used
Will Power Tuning hurt my engine in any way?
No. Best power is always made when air/fuel ratio and the spark tuning has been optimized for maximum power, meaning maximum "push" on the piston during each power stroke. Damage occurs if the air/fuel mixture is too lean, meaning that there is not enough fuel for the amount of air in the cylinder. This results in excess super heated air, which can cause burning of valves and pistons and will also induce detonation (which can break pistons, etc.) Relative to spark timing, too much "advance" will cause detonation, which reduces power and can also damage parts exactly as a lean mixture does. When you finish installing JET Performance on your vehicle, your engine will run at maximum efficiency yet safely distanced from possible damage due to leanness or excessive spark advance.
What happens if I have or plan to install other aftermarket equipment?
Custom Programs are available if you have installed headers, intake manifolds, camshafts, large mass-flow sensors, nitrous oxide systems, or any type supercharger. You absolutely need JET Performance Custom Programs with these modifications for both tremendous power gains over stock tuning, as well as to eliminate the probability of lean air/fuel ratios and excessive spark advance which are death to modified engines. Just call JET Performance and tell us all of your modifications. You do not need a Custom Program for engines that are stock or mildly modified. For example, high-flow air filters, cat back systems, or ram air scoops work perfectly with our Stage 1 or Stage 2 Power Tuning. If you suspect that your modifications would benefit from custom JET Performance tuning, call our customer service department at 800-535-1161 or email at jetchip@aol.com .
How does JET Performance Power Tuning change the way my engine performs?
JET Performance tuning replaces stock computer tuning inside the vehicle computer to give maximum power and torque. The tuning can be delivered in the form of a chip that replaces the stock computer chip, a chip that piggy-backs the stock computer chip, a chip that plugs into the back of the stock computer, or a module that intercepts and modifies the signals from the stock computer with JET Performance Power Tuning. The type of computer in your vehicle dictates the type of device needed. The tuning information is stored in the computer chip which controls all of the engine's characteristics like air/fuel ratio, spark advance, shift firmness, shift points, top speed, rev limit, and axle ratio. Sensors monitor many engine and transmission parameters like RPM, manifold air pressure, mass air flow, coolant temperature, intake air temperature and many more. These sensors send this information to the computer. The computer uses this information delivered from the sensors along with the information stored on the chip to deliver the optimum air/fuel ratio, spark timing, shift firmness, etc. for this set of operating conditions at that instant in time. JET Performance can tune a vehicle for the conditions by using a dynamometer to measure horsepower output while altering the information stored on the chip. This is how JET Performance maximizes your vehicle's power output!
How will JET Performance Power Tuning affect my gas mileage?
JET Performance Power Tuning does not alter your vehicles calibrations in any way that would hurt fuel economy. Fuel economy will remain virtually the same or may even improve (depending upon specific driving patterns) unless the vehicle is driven in a spirited manner(lead foot). For trucks that tow, JET Performance's Power Tuning is generally closer to the better fuel economy than the stock tuning. So in addition to power gains, a vehicle that tows with JET Performance installed will often exhibit better mileage than one with stock tuning.
Does JET Performance remove the speed and rev limiters?
It depends on the specific vehicle. On most chips, we eliminate the top speed limiter. The rev limiter is raised when possible and is completely dependent on the application. The SCU 2000, available for 1996-2000 GM cars and trucks (see catalog for specific vehicles) allows the user to remove the top speed limit It will also allow the user to calibrate the speedometer for any changes made in tire size and/or gear ratio.
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[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
And NO, I don't have a Dyno sheet to show you, so don't ask! ...But, my "butt dyno" feels the difference, and my G-Tech showed a 4/10 sec difference in 0-60 time, and I raced Blown 331 to 80 MPH (he had headers, I didn't) I pulled him off the line at low to mid-range, he THEN pulled on me as we got into the higher RPM's because he had headers! And I only lost by 1 car length! Also, my car was FASTER than the other stock/CAI cars!
Obviously, I am slightly biased, as I PAID $$$$ for the mod; however, IF it where a waste of $$$$, I WOULD BE THE FIRST ONE TO TELL YOU!
SSMAN, I truely respect your knowledge, and the fact that you work for Honda. HOWEVER, why do you call our "PCM", an "ECU"??? (Please, I DON'T mean to offend, but it doesn't show much credibility!) And why do you guys say that the chip is NON-programmable, when I HAD MINE REPROGRAMMED AND REMAPPED by Jet!!!
There is alot of misinformation regarding this topic (ie.) warranty, emissions, CARB, approval, how it works, etc...
Please read the following!!!
(Flame on!)
FAQ
Will JET Performance tuning void my warranty?
No. Federal law prohibits a dealer from voiding your warranty just because you are using aftermarket speed equipment, with only two exceptions: the warranty can be voided if the aftermarket part causes damage or adversely affects the emissions or the emissions system. In recent documents produced by the SEMA (Specialty Equipment Market Association), a trade association-representing specialty automotive parts manufacturers, and the following quotes have been extracted:
"The vehicle manufacturer is not allowed to void the vehicle warranty just because aftermarket equipment is installed on the vehicle. This protection for consumers is the result of a parts self-certification program developed by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA).
"Under the program, if a parts maker completes the EPA process of self-certifying its parts, the vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty even if the certified part has failed and is directly responsible for the warranty claim. In cases where such a failed aftermarket part is responsible for a warranty claim, the manufacturer must arrange a settlement with the part manufacturer, but the new vehicle warrant is not void under the law.
"If the failure to honor a claim involves the new-vehicle warranty, and it appears that the manufacturer is improperly denying a claim, the incident should be reported to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The FTC is responsible for monitoring compliance with the warranty law; the agency's telephone number is 202/326-3128."
IS JET Performance Power Tuning emissions legal?
Yes. All JET Performance Power Tuning products are 50 state emissions legal. They do not change the emissions at all from the stock tuning chip for any Federal or local emissions test. C.A.R.B. (California Air Resources Board) has issued Executive Order numbers D-234 through D-234-4 covering all JET Performance Power Chips, making JET Performance chips the most complete line of high-performance chips that can legally be sold, installed, and driven in the state of California. Because of C.A.R.B.'s very rigid rules concerning exhaust emissions, the Environmental Protection Agency ( E.P.A. ) accepts C.A.R.B. approval as evidence that an aftermarket part is clean and suitable for use in all other states.
What performance increase can I expect from JET Performance Tuning?
At JET Performance, we carefully dyno and track test every product we sell...in fact, it is these tests that tell us when we have the best possible tuning. Of course, the power gains are different for each engine family. However, power gains range from about 10 Horsepower to over 50 H.P. on supercharged or turbocharged engines, resulting in a 2 to 7 car length improvements in the quarter mile. Zero to 60 M.P.H. improvements are typically about 1/2 second.
What's the difference between Stage 1 and Stage 2 Power Tuning?
JET Performance has two types of tuning available for some vehicles depending on the modifications to the vehicle vehicle. The JET stage 1 is programmed for maximum power increases on a stock vehicle. The JET stage 2 is designed for peak horsepower in cases where the engine has been modified to run cooler and the exhaust system is less restrictive than stock,
If JET Performance Power Tuning is so great, why didn't the factories do it that way?
The factory program is designed for the average driver and is set to take a wide variety of operating conditions and driving styles into consideration. Consequently, stock calibrations aren't set to provide maximum power because they have to accommodate drivers who may use poor quality gasoline. For a real hi-performance person, premium is all they put in their vehicle. At JET Performance, we optimize the spark and fuel curves over the entire RPM band from just off idle right up to the redline for maximum power and performance from the best gasoline.
Can I run regular gasoline?
No. All tuning is designed and calibrated for 91 or higher-octane fuel. In some cases 89 octane may be used
Will Power Tuning hurt my engine in any way?
No. Best power is always made when air/fuel ratio and the spark tuning has been optimized for maximum power, meaning maximum "push" on the piston during each power stroke. Damage occurs if the air/fuel mixture is too lean, meaning that there is not enough fuel for the amount of air in the cylinder. This results in excess super heated air, which can cause burning of valves and pistons and will also induce detonation (which can break pistons, etc.) Relative to spark timing, too much "advance" will cause detonation, which reduces power and can also damage parts exactly as a lean mixture does. When you finish installing JET Performance on your vehicle, your engine will run at maximum efficiency yet safely distanced from possible damage due to leanness or excessive spark advance.
What happens if I have or plan to install other aftermarket equipment?
Custom Programs are available if you have installed headers, intake manifolds, camshafts, large mass-flow sensors, nitrous oxide systems, or any type supercharger. You absolutely need JET Performance Custom Programs with these modifications for both tremendous power gains over stock tuning, as well as to eliminate the probability of lean air/fuel ratios and excessive spark advance which are death to modified engines. Just call JET Performance and tell us all of your modifications. You do not need a Custom Program for engines that are stock or mildly modified. For example, high-flow air filters, cat back systems, or ram air scoops work perfectly with our Stage 1 or Stage 2 Power Tuning. If you suspect that your modifications would benefit from custom JET Performance tuning, call our customer service department at 800-535-1161 or email at jetchip@aol.com .
How does JET Performance Power Tuning change the way my engine performs?
JET Performance tuning replaces stock computer tuning inside the vehicle computer to give maximum power and torque. The tuning can be delivered in the form of a chip that replaces the stock computer chip, a chip that piggy-backs the stock computer chip, a chip that plugs into the back of the stock computer, or a module that intercepts and modifies the signals from the stock computer with JET Performance Power Tuning. The type of computer in your vehicle dictates the type of device needed. The tuning information is stored in the computer chip which controls all of the engine's characteristics like air/fuel ratio, spark advance, shift firmness, shift points, top speed, rev limit, and axle ratio. Sensors monitor many engine and transmission parameters like RPM, manifold air pressure, mass air flow, coolant temperature, intake air temperature and many more. These sensors send this information to the computer. The computer uses this information delivered from the sensors along with the information stored on the chip to deliver the optimum air/fuel ratio, spark timing, shift firmness, etc. for this set of operating conditions at that instant in time. JET Performance can tune a vehicle for the conditions by using a dynamometer to measure horsepower output while altering the information stored on the chip. This is how JET Performance maximizes your vehicle's power output!
How will JET Performance Power Tuning affect my gas mileage?
JET Performance Power Tuning does not alter your vehicles calibrations in any way that would hurt fuel economy. Fuel economy will remain virtually the same or may even improve (depending upon specific driving patterns) unless the vehicle is driven in a spirited manner(lead foot). For trucks that tow, JET Performance's Power Tuning is generally closer to the better fuel economy than the stock tuning. So in addition to power gains, a vehicle that tows with JET Performance installed will often exhibit better mileage than one with stock tuning.
Does JET Performance remove the speed and rev limiters?
It depends on the specific vehicle. On most chips, we eliminate the top speed limiter. The rev limiter is raised when possible and is completely dependent on the application. The SCU 2000, available for 1996-2000 GM cars and trucks (see catalog for specific vehicles) allows the user to remove the top speed limit It will also allow the user to calibrate the speedometer for any changes made in tire size and/or gear ratio.
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©1997-2001 Jet Performance Products
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[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
07-31-2001, 09:59 PM
#20
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Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>SSMAN, I truely respect your knowledge, and the fact that you work for Honda. HOWEVER, why do you call our "PCM", an "ECU"??? (Please, I DON'T mean to offend, but it doesn't show much credibility!) And why do you guys say that the chip is NON-programmable, when I HAD MINE REPROGRAMMED AND REMAPPED by Jet!!!</STRONG>
<STRONG>SSMAN, I truely respect your knowledge, and the fact that you work for Honda. HOWEVER, why do you call our "PCM", an "ECU"??? (Please, I DON'T mean to offend, but it doesn't show much credibility!) And why do you guys say that the chip is NON-programmable, when I HAD MINE REPROGRAMMED AND REMAPPED by Jet!!!</STRONG>
ECU - electronic control unit
ECM - electronic control module
PCM - powertrain control module
Each of the above names refers to the same part. The parts catalog refers to the control unit as "ECM". The TL Service Manual refers to it as "PCM". Internal documents often use "ECU". All are correct, so you're comment about credibility is wwwaaayyy off base.
Again, the factory control unit (use any abbreviation of your choice) IS NOT PROGRAMMABLE! If it was, as you've implied, why would AHM replace them for software problems, rather than simply reprogram? The only programmable control unit in any Honda product is the RSX and 2001 Civic.
Also, a modified control unit is not covered by the factory warranty. The manufacturer cannot deny all powertrain claims unless it is determined that the ECU was the cause of failure. If you have your ECU modified and the check engine light comes on with DTC P0700 you're on the hook for a $600 ECU plus labor.
Ogolden1 - I'm not trying to offend you, but you're not building much credibility by citing the figures of your "butt dyno" and simply regurgitating the warranty disclaimer of an after market tuner.
07-31-2001, 10:01 PM
#21
Suzuka Master
Does anyone have the part # of the ECU -- the actual computer chip?
1. Is the firmware completely contained on the chip. (If it is non-volatile and can only be burned once, it would limit programming options)
2. If the firmware (code and data) for the chip resided off-chip, would it not be possible to setup a piggyback chip with address decode to allow a code/data overlay or other trick to be used with this chip?
I heard about OUR chip being non-programmable, but the minute any memory is off-chip, the door is wide open...
(BTW -- I'm not talking about scratch pad memory, etc)
1. Is the firmware completely contained on the chip. (If it is non-volatile and can only be burned once, it would limit programming options)
2. If the firmware (code and data) for the chip resided off-chip, would it not be possible to setup a piggyback chip with address decode to allow a code/data overlay or other trick to be used with this chip?
I heard about OUR chip being non-programmable, but the minute any memory is off-chip, the door is wide open...
(BTW -- I'm not talking about scratch pad memory, etc)
07-31-2001, 10:59 PM
#22
Oh...Behave!
Originally posted by SSMAN:
The control unit can correctly be called:
ECU - electronic control unit
ECM - electronic control module
PCM - powertrain control module
Each of the above names refers to the same part. The parts catalog refers to the control unit as "ECM". The TL Service Manual refers to it as "PCM". Internal documents often use "ECU". All are correct, so you're comment about credibility is wwwaaayyy off base.
SSMAN, I STAND CORRECTED!!!
Again, the factory control unit (use any abbreviation of your choice) IS NOT PROGRAMMABLE!
I am not a computer wizard, so I only know what I was told by Jet. - They said that they "REPROGRAM" the factory settings to advance the timing, and the fuel/air ratios thru the entire RPM range! If it is NOT programmable, then would you have ANY idea HOW they did/do it???
Trust me, I can feel the difference!
(And I am not a "snot-nosed" kid! I'm 41 yrs old, I has raised in a family of stock-car racers and tuners. I have raced and rebuilt cars and motorcycles since I was a teenager. I have an Automotive Mechanics Certification [two years technical college training]).
Also, a modified control unit is not covered by the factory warranty. The manufacturer cannot deny all powertrain claims unless it is determined that the ECU was the cause of failure. If you have your ECU modified and the check engine light comes on with DTC P0700 you're on the hook for a $600 ECU plus labor.
Is a P0700 DTC an indication of a defective PCM? In that case, Jet would be replacing it! They have a Lifetime Defect Warranty!
Ogolden1 - I'm not trying to offend you, but you're not building much credibility by citing the figures of your "butt dyno" and simply regurgitating the warranty disclaimer of an after market tuner.
In addition to "butt dyno", I also said that I had a "Street Run" comparison, and a G-Tech comparison!
Please understand that I am mearly trying to get to the bottom of this, and you obviously have a greater deal of insider knowledge regarding this. Maybe you could talk to a tech at Jet and find out how they "remap" the factory settings, since you are so much more well versed in this!
Please accept my appologies if I offended you!
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
The control unit can correctly be called:
ECU - electronic control unit
ECM - electronic control module
PCM - powertrain control module
Each of the above names refers to the same part. The parts catalog refers to the control unit as "ECM". The TL Service Manual refers to it as "PCM". Internal documents often use "ECU". All are correct, so you're comment about credibility is wwwaaayyy off base.
SSMAN, I STAND CORRECTED!!!
Again, the factory control unit (use any abbreviation of your choice) IS NOT PROGRAMMABLE!
I am not a computer wizard, so I only know what I was told by Jet. - They said that they "REPROGRAM" the factory settings to advance the timing, and the fuel/air ratios thru the entire RPM range! If it is NOT programmable, then would you have ANY idea HOW they did/do it???
Trust me, I can feel the difference!
(And I am not a "snot-nosed" kid! I'm 41 yrs old, I has raised in a family of stock-car racers and tuners. I have raced and rebuilt cars and motorcycles since I was a teenager. I have an Automotive Mechanics Certification [two years technical college training]).
Also, a modified control unit is not covered by the factory warranty. The manufacturer cannot deny all powertrain claims unless it is determined that the ECU was the cause of failure. If you have your ECU modified and the check engine light comes on with DTC P0700 you're on the hook for a $600 ECU plus labor.
Is a P0700 DTC an indication of a defective PCM? In that case, Jet would be replacing it! They have a Lifetime Defect Warranty!
Ogolden1 - I'm not trying to offend you, but you're not building much credibility by citing the figures of your "butt dyno" and simply regurgitating the warranty disclaimer of an after market tuner.
In addition to "butt dyno", I also said that I had a "Street Run" comparison, and a G-Tech comparison!
Please understand that I am mearly trying to get to the bottom of this, and you obviously have a greater deal of insider knowledge regarding this. Maybe you could talk to a tech at Jet and find out how they "remap" the factory settings, since you are so much more well versed in this!
Please accept my appologies if I offended you!
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
07-31-2001, 11:13 PM
#23
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>Originally posted by SSMAN:
The control unit can correctly be called:
ECU - electronic control unit
ECM - electronic control module
PCM - powertrain control module
Each of the above names refers to the same part. The parts catalog refers to the control unit as "ECM". The TL Service Manual refers to it as "PCM". Internal documents often use "ECU". All are correct, so you're comment about credibility is wwwaaayyy off base.
SSMAN, I STAND CORRECTED!!!
Again, the factory control unit (use any abbreviation of your choice) IS NOT PROGRAMMABLE!
I am not a computer wizard, so I only know what I was told by Jet. - They said that they "REPROGRAM" the factory settings to advance the timing, and the fuel/air ratios thru the entire RPM range! If it is NOT programmable, then would you have ANY idea HOW they did/do it???
Trust me, I can feel the difference!
(And I am not a "snot-nosed" kid! I'm 41 yrs old, I has raised in a family of stock-car racers and tuners. I have raced and rebuilt cars and motorcycles since I was a teenager. I have an Automotive Mechanics Certification [two years technical college training]).
Also, a modified control unit is not covered by the factory warranty. The manufacturer cannot deny all powertrain claims unless it is determined that the ECU was the cause of failure. If you have your ECU modified and the check engine light comes on with DTC P0700 you're on the hook for a $600 ECU plus labor.
Is a P0700 DTC an indication of a defective PCM? In that case, Jet would be replacing it! They have a Lifetime Defect Warranty!
Ogolden1 - I'm not trying to offend you, but you're not building much credibility by citing the figures of your "butt dyno" and simply regurgitating the warranty disclaimer of an after market tuner.
In addition to "butt dyno", I also said that I had a "Street Run" comparison, and a G-Tech comparison!
Please understand that I am mearly trying to get to the bottom of this, and you obviously have a greater deal of insider knowledge regarding this. Maybe you could talk to a tech at Jet and find out how they "remap" the factory settings, since you are so much more well versed in this!
Please accept my appologies if I offended you!
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>Originally posted by SSMAN:
The control unit can correctly be called:
ECU - electronic control unit
ECM - electronic control module
PCM - powertrain control module
Each of the above names refers to the same part. The parts catalog refers to the control unit as "ECM". The TL Service Manual refers to it as "PCM". Internal documents often use "ECU". All are correct, so you're comment about credibility is wwwaaayyy off base.
SSMAN, I STAND CORRECTED!!!
Again, the factory control unit (use any abbreviation of your choice) IS NOT PROGRAMMABLE!
I am not a computer wizard, so I only know what I was told by Jet. - They said that they "REPROGRAM" the factory settings to advance the timing, and the fuel/air ratios thru the entire RPM range! If it is NOT programmable, then would you have ANY idea HOW they did/do it???
Trust me, I can feel the difference!
(And I am not a "snot-nosed" kid! I'm 41 yrs old, I has raised in a family of stock-car racers and tuners. I have raced and rebuilt cars and motorcycles since I was a teenager. I have an Automotive Mechanics Certification [two years technical college training]).
Also, a modified control unit is not covered by the factory warranty. The manufacturer cannot deny all powertrain claims unless it is determined that the ECU was the cause of failure. If you have your ECU modified and the check engine light comes on with DTC P0700 you're on the hook for a $600 ECU plus labor.
Is a P0700 DTC an indication of a defective PCM? In that case, Jet would be replacing it! They have a Lifetime Defect Warranty!
Ogolden1 - I'm not trying to offend you, but you're not building much credibility by citing the figures of your "butt dyno" and simply regurgitating the warranty disclaimer of an after market tuner.
In addition to "butt dyno", I also said that I had a "Street Run" comparison, and a G-Tech comparison!
Please understand that I am mearly trying to get to the bottom of this, and you obviously have a greater deal of insider knowledge regarding this. Maybe you could talk to a tech at Jet and find out how they "remap" the factory settings, since you are so much more well versed in this!
Please accept my appologies if I offended you!
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
I was kind of tangentially getting my nose in this -- not in a one side vs. another way either.
I was interested in if JET had made any comments, or if you had a chance to compare the ECU (whatever acronym you like [PGM-F1, etc, etc]) that they modified to the original.
Granted this is a "novel" request, but perhaps this would allow "us" to figure out what the heck is going on.
If they gave you back a "dummy" box and charged you for it -- this would constitute fraud. I doubt that "Jet" is on this track...
07-31-2001, 11:26 PM
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EricL - There is no part # listing for anything internal to the control unit. The parts catalog only has a listing for the complete unit.
I have seen the engineering drawings for the control unit, and each internal component is assigned a part # for purchasing. The chip is burned in Japan, and it is not programmable (it can be burned only once).
Ogolden1 - I'm not putting the validity of your claims on trial, but I am questioning exactly what Jet is doing.
For years control units have been a source of frustration for AHM and it's dealer body. Each model and engine family has multiple ECU applications. This requires an incredible amount of space in the parts centers, and dealers can't possibly stock enough to cover every application. If AHM had the capability to reprogram the ECU for software problems, they would be doing it.
The introduction of the 2001 Civic was the first step, and now the RSX carries 1 part # that applies to all models. The software is simply installed using the "AIM" (Acura Interface Module).
I will call Jet tomorrow and do some investigation. I'll let you know what I find.
I have seen the engineering drawings for the control unit, and each internal component is assigned a part # for purchasing. The chip is burned in Japan, and it is not programmable (it can be burned only once).
Ogolden1 - I'm not putting the validity of your claims on trial, but I am questioning exactly what Jet is doing.
For years control units have been a source of frustration for AHM and it's dealer body. Each model and engine family has multiple ECU applications. This requires an incredible amount of space in the parts centers, and dealers can't possibly stock enough to cover every application. If AHM had the capability to reprogram the ECU for software problems, they would be doing it.
The introduction of the 2001 Civic was the first step, and now the RSX carries 1 part # that applies to all models. The software is simply installed using the "AIM" (Acura Interface Module).
I will call Jet tomorrow and do some investigation. I'll let you know what I find.
07-31-2001, 11:37 PM
#25
Oh...Behave!
Ok, here's what I know:
It IS the same PCM BOX! (I scribed my initials on the corner) I took out the box in their parking lot. They took it upstairs, and brought it back in about 10 minutes. It has "Jet Performance" seal-stickers over the cover seams which say, "Removal of this seal VOIDS the warranty"! So, even though I wanted to open it up a look inside to see IF there was any soldering done, I didn't!
I was told that they plug it into a computer that has a remapped software program that changes the factory settings to increase the timing curve and the fuel/air ratios.
I seem to remember that they said that they weren't resoldering any chips. ...And, it would have been hard to do that in less that 10 minutes, wouldn't it???
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
It IS the same PCM BOX! (I scribed my initials on the corner) I took out the box in their parking lot. They took it upstairs, and brought it back in about 10 minutes. It has "Jet Performance" seal-stickers over the cover seams which say, "Removal of this seal VOIDS the warranty"! So, even though I wanted to open it up a look inside to see IF there was any soldering done, I didn't!
I was told that they plug it into a computer that has a remapped software program that changes the factory settings to increase the timing curve and the fuel/air ratios.
I seem to remember that they said that they weren't resoldering any chips. ...And, it would have been hard to do that in less that 10 minutes, wouldn't it???
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
07-31-2001, 11:58 PM
#26
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After I install my mods I might try Jet out. If they give me a guarantee that I lose performance I can get a full refund I will do it. I will dyno test before and after.
Spiro
Spiro
08-01-2001, 10:28 AM
#27
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AcuraKid: While I'm not in Tallahassee right now, I did spend 4 of the best years of my life at FAMU...making the occasional..okay everyday...forays to FSU (hey, man's gotta catch the ferry behind Doak!)
dee
dee
08-01-2001, 07:13 PM
#28
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>Ok, here's what I know:
It IS the same PCM BOX! (I scribed my initials on the corner) I took out the box in their parking lot. They took it upstairs, and brought it back in about 10 minutes. It has "Jet Performance" seal-stickers over the cover seams which say, "Removal of this seal VOIDS the warranty"! So, even though I wanted to open it up a look inside to see IF there was any soldering done, I didn't!
I was told that they plug it into a computer that has a remapped software program that changes the factory settings to increase the timing curve and the fuel/air ratios.
I seem to remember that they said that they weren't resoldering any chips. ...And, it would have been hard to do that in less that 10 minutes, wouldn't it???
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>Ok, here's what I know:
It IS the same PCM BOX! (I scribed my initials on the corner) I took out the box in their parking lot. They took it upstairs, and brought it back in about 10 minutes. It has "Jet Performance" seal-stickers over the cover seams which say, "Removal of this seal VOIDS the warranty"! So, even though I wanted to open it up a look inside to see IF there was any soldering done, I didn't!
I was told that they plug it into a computer that has a remapped software program that changes the factory settings to increase the timing curve and the fuel/air ratios.
I seem to remember that they said that they weren't resoldering any chips. ...And, it would have been hard to do that in less that 10 minutes, wouldn't it???
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]</STRONG>
Boy, I know SSMAN knows his stuff. I also heard that the chips were "special order" -- in other words, Joe Blow couldn't just get one off the street and burn a fresh unit.
I would love to find one at a junkyard and look the guts over.
Maybe there is an area of scratch pad NVRAM that can store data table values -- too bad they wont say what they are doing...
08-01-2001, 07:48 PM
#29
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spiro,
Sorry for getting back to you so late. Tadashi at G-force has not been able to attain the chips within our ECU's. AHM is making it virtually impossibe to get blank chips.
As for Jet chip, G-Force and Hondata have actually tested Jet chip's CL type S chip and found out on all occasions that all it was was just a sticker on top of stock chip.
Ogolgen1,
Now your stating that you beat me out of the hole when we were racing. Bullshit! You even stated on another post that when we raced that we were dead even from the start until we hit 80MPH. Like I said...now that you have headers and smaller tires to get the jump at the start I'll still beat you with stock tires on.
So what if you have been building mopeds, scooters, an associated with NASCAR while you were younger. Does that constitute what your talking about. i.e. BUTT DYNO That's some funny shit! I have been drag racing cars for 10 years plus... what kind of credibility does that state on this forum. That I know everthing about drag racing. I don't think so.
Also, you state it took Jet Chip to reprogram your chip in 10 minutes...Wow, I wish I could make $250.00 in ten minutes by just putting a sticker on a stock chip. YOU GOT SCREWED BIG TIME!!! Plain and simple. I know people who had the stage two done to their ECU like you did and they all got their money back because they proved it did nothing for performance using a dyno. On the other hand, your BUTT DYNO could be accurate...yeah right.
BRING IT ON RON!!!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]
Sorry for getting back to you so late. Tadashi at G-force has not been able to attain the chips within our ECU's. AHM is making it virtually impossibe to get blank chips.
As for Jet chip, G-Force and Hondata have actually tested Jet chip's CL type S chip and found out on all occasions that all it was was just a sticker on top of stock chip.
Ogolgen1,
Now your stating that you beat me out of the hole when we were racing. Bullshit! You even stated on another post that when we raced that we were dead even from the start until we hit 80MPH. Like I said...now that you have headers and smaller tires to get the jump at the start I'll still beat you with stock tires on.
So what if you have been building mopeds, scooters, an associated with NASCAR while you were younger. Does that constitute what your talking about. i.e. BUTT DYNO That's some funny shit! I have been drag racing cars for 10 years plus... what kind of credibility does that state on this forum. That I know everthing about drag racing. I don't think so.
Also, you state it took Jet Chip to reprogram your chip in 10 minutes...Wow, I wish I could make $250.00 in ten minutes by just putting a sticker on a stock chip. YOU GOT SCREWED BIG TIME!!! Plain and simple. I know people who had the stage two done to their ECU like you did and they all got their money back because they proved it did nothing for performance using a dyno. On the other hand, your BUTT DYNO could be accurate...yeah right.
BRING IT ON RON!!!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]
08-01-2001, 08:50 PM
#30
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by BLOWN 331:
<STRONG>spiro,
Sorry for getting back to you so late. Tadashi at G-force has not been able to attain the chips within our ECU's. AHM is making it virtually impossibe to get blank chips.
As for Jet chip, G-Force and Hondata have actually tested Jet chip's CL type S chip and found out on all occasions that all it was was just a sticker on top of stock chip.
Ogolgen1,
Now your stating that you beat me out of the hole when we were racing. Bullshit! You even stated on another post that when we raced that we were dead even from the start until we hit 80MPH. Like I said...now that you have headers and smaller tires to get the jump at the start I'll still beat you with stock tires on.
So what if you have been building mopeds, scooters, an associated with NASCAR while you were younger. Does that constitute what your talking about. i.e. BUTT DYNO That's some funny shit! I have been drag racing cars for 10 years plus... what kind of credibility does that state on this forum. That I know everthing about drag racing. I don't think so.
Also, you state it took Jet Chip to reprogram your chip in 10 minutes...Wow, I wish I could make $250.00 in ten minutes by just putting a sticker on a stock chip. YOU GOT SCREWED BIG TIME!!! Plain and simple. I know people who had the stage two done to their ECU like you did and they all got their money back because they proved it did nothing for performance using a dyno. On the other hand, your BUTT DYNO could be accurate...yeah right.
BRING IT ON RON!!!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]</STRONG>
<STRONG>spiro,
Sorry for getting back to you so late. Tadashi at G-force has not been able to attain the chips within our ECU's. AHM is making it virtually impossibe to get blank chips.
As for Jet chip, G-Force and Hondata have actually tested Jet chip's CL type S chip and found out on all occasions that all it was was just a sticker on top of stock chip.
Ogolgen1,
Now your stating that you beat me out of the hole when we were racing. Bullshit! You even stated on another post that when we raced that we were dead even from the start until we hit 80MPH. Like I said...now that you have headers and smaller tires to get the jump at the start I'll still beat you with stock tires on.
So what if you have been building mopeds, scooters, an associated with NASCAR while you were younger. Does that constitute what your talking about. i.e. BUTT DYNO That's some funny shit! I have been drag racing cars for 10 years plus... what kind of credibility does that state on this forum. That I know everthing about drag racing. I don't think so.
Also, you state it took Jet Chip to reprogram your chip in 10 minutes...Wow, I wish I could make $250.00 in ten minutes by just putting a sticker on a stock chip. YOU GOT SCREWED BIG TIME!!! Plain and simple. I know people who had the stage two done to their ECU like you did and they all got their money back because they proved it did nothing for performance using a dyno. On the other hand, your BUTT DYNO could be accurate...yeah right.
BRING IT ON RON!!!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: BLOWN 331 ]</STRONG>
You realize that if you're correct, then "Jet" is guilty of fraud!
The only other possibility is walking some marketing "fine line" -- like changing some data value that is stored in "scratchpad" ram. For example, they could alter a timing parameter, then the CPU could do a little correction and put the value back to the value that it was at previously. A possible effect would be to “train” the unit in a temporary fashion, then have the unit regress/return the timing values back to their “nominal” values. (Sorry, I don’t have the code listings and schematics)
Does anyone kinow if the chip is custom LSI, or who makes it? If someone could get me the manufacturer's name, I would be happy to do some digging around (I realize that this is probably a path with plenty of tread marks...)
08-01-2001, 09:10 PM
#31
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EricL,
Yes I know. Many people have got their money back form Jet Chip because their product did not perform as what it had stated. I have heard of companies soldering resistors to certain components in the ECU to alter the engines parameters, but that takes way more than 10 minutes. Jet Chip has other products that work, but as for these CL type S chips I think they are bogus.
Yes I know. Many people have got their money back form Jet Chip because their product did not perform as what it had stated. I have heard of companies soldering resistors to certain components in the ECU to alter the engines parameters, but that takes way more than 10 minutes. Jet Chip has other products that work, but as for these CL type S chips I think they are bogus.
08-01-2001, 09:16 PM
#32
Suzuka Master
I called "Mike" at Jet and I am just going to repeat what he told me.
Preface:
I told "Mike" – at Jet Performance Products -- that we were having an "interesting" discussion about the Jet upgrade over at the acura-cl.com forum. I mentioned the "can't flash the chip" issue to him and asked him to describe what they do.
Reply:
1. He said that they unsolder/re-program/solder the existing chip (CPU) -- he said that the chip IS reprogrammed (remember I'm just the messenger).
Notes:
I mentioned that some very "smart" people insisted that the chip could NOT be reprogrammed. I asked if they were using any kind of piggyback device -- he said NO. I asked if there was a dyno for the chip -- he said NO.
I asked him if he would let me get a 3 way average dyno down in the area, then bring the car to their shop for a "brain-update", and then have the results validated. I asked Mike if they would refund my money if I returned with a dyno that showed no improvement. He said that they would not refund any money as they had labor involved in the upgrade (approx. 2 hours) and that they would just try to have the after dyno checked-out.
I was told that they would try to fax me a dyno of before and after results.
That's all I know for now...
Preface:
I told "Mike" – at Jet Performance Products -- that we were having an "interesting" discussion about the Jet upgrade over at the acura-cl.com forum. I mentioned the "can't flash the chip" issue to him and asked him to describe what they do.
Reply:
1. He said that they unsolder/re-program/solder the existing chip (CPU) -- he said that the chip IS reprogrammed (remember I'm just the messenger).
Notes:
I mentioned that some very "smart" people insisted that the chip could NOT be reprogrammed. I asked if they were using any kind of piggyback device -- he said NO. I asked if there was a dyno for the chip -- he said NO.
I asked him if he would let me get a 3 way average dyno down in the area, then bring the car to their shop for a "brain-update", and then have the results validated. I asked Mike if they would refund my money if I returned with a dyno that showed no improvement. He said that they would not refund any money as they had labor involved in the upgrade (approx. 2 hours) and that they would just try to have the after dyno checked-out.
I was told that they would try to fax me a dyno of before and after results.
That's all I know for now...
08-01-2001, 09:22 PM
#33
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Sounds very fishy to me, 10 minutes to reprogram? Even if it were reprogrammable which I'm kinda believing SSMAN on this, wouldn't it take longer than 10 minutes? And slapping the stickers on with the "Take me off and it voids the warranty" just sounds even more bad! I hope you're right Ron, because we could all use more horsepower cheaply, but I still can't believe it without some hard proof.
08-01-2001, 09:33 PM
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EricL,
When I asked for Dyno sheets for their CL type S chip, they said that it gives you about 9 HP. That was it. He said nothing more except price.
I can't wait to see their dyno sheets. Even then they have to have similar varibles when dynoing to have an accurate comparison. I'm still not convinced about their reprograming (burning)the existing chip. As told by many Honda Mech. it can not be reprogrammed. Period. When you speak to them again ask them which parameters are reprogrammed within the chip in enhance performance. Thanks for taking the time to research.
BLOWN 331
When I asked for Dyno sheets for their CL type S chip, they said that it gives you about 9 HP. That was it. He said nothing more except price.
I can't wait to see their dyno sheets. Even then they have to have similar varibles when dynoing to have an accurate comparison. I'm still not convinced about their reprograming (burning)the existing chip. As told by many Honda Mech. it can not be reprogrammed. Period. When you speak to them again ask them which parameters are reprogrammed within the chip in enhance performance. Thanks for taking the time to research.
BLOWN 331
08-01-2001, 09:56 PM
#35
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by BLOWN 331:
<STRONG>EricL,
When I asked for Dyno sheets for their CL type S chip, they said that it gives you about 9 HP. That was it. He said nothing more except price.
I can't wait to see their dyno sheets. Even then they have to have similar varibles when dynoing to have an accurate comparison. I'm still not convinced about their reprograming (burning)the existing chip. As told by many Honda Mech. it can not be reprogrammed. Period. When you speak to them again ask them which parameters are reprogrammed within the chip in enhance performance. Thanks for taking the time to research.
BLOWN 331</STRONG>
<STRONG>EricL,
When I asked for Dyno sheets for their CL type S chip, they said that it gives you about 9 HP. That was it. He said nothing more except price.
I can't wait to see their dyno sheets. Even then they have to have similar varibles when dynoing to have an accurate comparison. I'm still not convinced about their reprograming (burning)the existing chip. As told by many Honda Mech. it can not be reprogrammed. Period. When you speak to them again ask them which parameters are reprogrammed within the chip in enhance performance. Thanks for taking the time to research.
BLOWN 331</STRONG>
Well, my fax machine is quiet... I'm going to try one more time and see if "Mike" can get fax out.
I'm sorry, I did ask about what was changed and "Mike" said that the timing and fuel-air was changed (as I said -- just the messenger).
Just called again -- the engineer is gone, but they said they would fax the dyno tommorow -- I'll see...
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: EricL ]
08-01-2001, 10:03 PM
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EricL,
Sorry, I didn't mean any harm in regards to "period". At least your getting a response from someone over at Jet. I give them a call tommorow and see what they say to me. Thanks again for being an excellent messenger.
BLOWN 331
Sorry, I didn't mean any harm in regards to "period". At least your getting a response from someone over at Jet. I give them a call tommorow and see what they say to me. Thanks again for being an excellent messenger.
BLOWN 331
08-01-2001, 10:40 PM
#37
Oh...Behave!
BLOWN 331:
First off, I DON'T want to get into a "pissing match" with you over this! You are a fellow enthusiast, and I respect you!
(BTW- Did you get my emails regarding the Super Drager exhaust? ...I was hoping you'd give me some feedback!)
I'm telling the way I remember it happening!
1)I DID beat you out of the hole! ...If you remember, YOU even made a comment about my tires really grabbed well, and that you had to start at 1/4 throttle so you didn't spin so much with your SHITTY stock tires! ...Remember!(?) Granted, one could then say it was the TIRES that made the difference, not the chip! ...and I acknowledge that!
2) I have NEVER said that we were "dead even" at 80 mph!!! ...NEVER!!! I have only said that I was 1 car length behind! Show me where I said that and I will pay you $1,000 !!!
Believe me, IF I WAS RIPPED OFF, I want my money back! I just may confront them with this, make them open my "box", and show me where they "supposedly" removed the chip! Because, you can certainly tell IF it has been resoldered!
I was under the impression that they just plugged a wire harness into one of the plug-ins, and preprogrammed it that way. (Like I said before, I AM NO COMPUTER WIZ!)
I too was wondering about the sticker seal- "Voids warranty if removed" over the PCM cover lid seam. ...What are they trying to hide inside? They said it was to prevent someone from stealing their program, or doing something different that would make them liable.
But, I REALLY did FEEL an immediate difference in the "pulling" g-force, and the acceleration! (That was the POINT of my explaining that I have an automotive background, and I'm not a snot-nosed kid that doesn't know what a ratchet is!) Sorry, Amir!
The dyno sheet I saw was for a Legend or Vigor! They DO NOT have one for the CL-S.
I even volunteered my car to be the first one for them to dyno; they told me it would be similar results to the dyno they already had! BTW: It took MANY calls and emails to finally get that dyno sheet. And, NO, I don't still have it!
Please understand that I am not coming from an "opposition" standpoint, as I just want to get to the bottom of this too! It's been based upon what I was told by Jet, and the difference in the feeling that the car "pulls" harder than before!
PS - I REALLY want to go down and OPEN that box right now!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
First off, I DON'T want to get into a "pissing match" with you over this! You are a fellow enthusiast, and I respect you!
(BTW- Did you get my emails regarding the Super Drager exhaust? ...I was hoping you'd give me some feedback!)
I'm telling the way I remember it happening!
1)I DID beat you out of the hole! ...If you remember, YOU even made a comment about my tires really grabbed well, and that you had to start at 1/4 throttle so you didn't spin so much with your SHITTY stock tires! ...Remember!(?) Granted, one could then say it was the TIRES that made the difference, not the chip! ...and I acknowledge that!
2) I have NEVER said that we were "dead even" at 80 mph!!! ...NEVER!!! I have only said that I was 1 car length behind! Show me where I said that and I will pay you $1,000 !!!
Believe me, IF I WAS RIPPED OFF, I want my money back! I just may confront them with this, make them open my "box", and show me where they "supposedly" removed the chip! Because, you can certainly tell IF it has been resoldered!
I was under the impression that they just plugged a wire harness into one of the plug-ins, and preprogrammed it that way. (Like I said before, I AM NO COMPUTER WIZ!)
I too was wondering about the sticker seal- "Voids warranty if removed" over the PCM cover lid seam. ...What are they trying to hide inside? They said it was to prevent someone from stealing their program, or doing something different that would make them liable.
But, I REALLY did FEEL an immediate difference in the "pulling" g-force, and the acceleration! (That was the POINT of my explaining that I have an automotive background, and I'm not a snot-nosed kid that doesn't know what a ratchet is!) Sorry, Amir!
The dyno sheet I saw was for a Legend or Vigor! They DO NOT have one for the CL-S.
I even volunteered my car to be the first one for them to dyno; they told me it would be similar results to the dyno they already had! BTW: It took MANY calls and emails to finally get that dyno sheet. And, NO, I don't still have it!
Please understand that I am not coming from an "opposition" standpoint, as I just want to get to the bottom of this too! It's been based upon what I was told by Jet, and the difference in the feeling that the car "pulls" harder than before!
PS - I REALLY want to go down and OPEN that box right now!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
08-01-2001, 11:20 PM
#38
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Ogolden1,
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, but your weren't out of the whole by a car length. Let's ask Nick (Type S Smokes All). He was there. Granted stock tires are SHITTY but at 1/4 to 1/2 trottle they come out of the whole well.
As for Jet Chip telling you that they have dyno sheets for the Vigor and Legend that will be the same for our CL type S. Tell them to eat it! The Vigor which is a inline 5 cylinder engine and the Legends were built back in the mid 90's. I'm not sure about this and I may be incorrect, but I would think that they ran off a different ECU back then, which could be modified. The cars we have run off a more advanced and tamper proof ECU.
As for the exhaust, it is awesome. So is BLXMJX's car. Real sweet ride! The sound is not that loud and looks great. It doesn't hang low and fills up the cut outs some what well. I heard arnold rip in and out of the parking lot and it sounded good.
Well, gotta find that post so I can collet my $1,000. J/K
Our server was done in New York, so maybe thats why I didn't get your e-mails. Sorry. If you have any other questions just shoot them again. I'll be happy to try and help you out.
BLOWN 331
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, but your weren't out of the whole by a car length. Let's ask Nick (Type S Smokes All). He was there. Granted stock tires are SHITTY but at 1/4 to 1/2 trottle they come out of the whole well.
As for Jet Chip telling you that they have dyno sheets for the Vigor and Legend that will be the same for our CL type S. Tell them to eat it! The Vigor which is a inline 5 cylinder engine and the Legends were built back in the mid 90's. I'm not sure about this and I may be incorrect, but I would think that they ran off a different ECU back then, which could be modified. The cars we have run off a more advanced and tamper proof ECU.
As for the exhaust, it is awesome. So is BLXMJX's car. Real sweet ride! The sound is not that loud and looks great. It doesn't hang low and fills up the cut outs some what well. I heard arnold rip in and out of the parking lot and it sounded good.
Well, gotta find that post so I can collet my $1,000. J/K
Our server was done in New York, so maybe thats why I didn't get your e-mails. Sorry. If you have any other questions just shoot them again. I'll be happy to try and help you out.
BLOWN 331
08-01-2001, 11:25 PM
#39
I am Jack's need 4 SPEED!
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Originally posted by Ogolden1:
<STRONG>... I REALLY want to go down and OPEN that box right now!</STRONG>
<STRONG>... I REALLY want to go down and OPEN that box right now!
</STRONG>
if you CAN actually tell whether or not something has been resoldered, then it should be worth a shot. if the thing isn't really different and cannot really be 'reprogrammed'-you win...and are a hero!
maybe take it to a acura dealer mech that would know whether or not it has been altered, also providing you with a credible witness if you need it.
if it does look like something was changed, then it's just up to you to be honest about the sticker if you run into 'warranty' problems later--of course, if it breaks under warranty, where's the guilt??
if this sounds like a stupid idea, can someone else expound on it? i'm just 'rambling' here.
my 2¢
08-01-2001, 11:35 PM
#40
Oh...Behave!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BLOWN 331:
Ogolden1,
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, but your weren't out of the whole by a car length
I never said I was!!! [by a car length - no distance mentioned!]
I stated: "I pulled him off the line at low to mid-range, he THEN pulled on me as we got into the higher RPM's because he had headers! And I only lost by 1 car length!" Also, my car was FASTER than the other stock/CAI cars!
Well, gotta find that post so I can collect my $1,000. J/K
HA! HA! ....GOOD LUCK!!!
:p
Hey, thanks for the info on the exhaust!
I can't wait to get'um on!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]
Ogolden1,
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, but your weren't out of the whole by a car length
I never said I was!!! [by a car length - no distance mentioned!]
I stated: "I pulled him off the line at low to mid-range, he THEN pulled on me as we got into the higher RPM's because he had headers! And I only lost by 1 car length!" Also, my car was FASTER than the other stock/CAI cars!
Well, gotta find that post so I can collect my $1,000. J/K
HA! HA! ....GOOD LUCK!!!
:p Hey, thanks for the info on the exhaust!
I can't wait to get'um on!
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Ogolden1 ]