anyone here lemon their CL or other acura/honda product? i;m looking to lemon my cl and was curious to learn of other's experiences in dealing with honda in this manner. i know every manufacturer is different. some will just rollover and take the hit and others will go the distance through a trial.

 

why are you calling it a lemon?

 

because the transmission performs like a erratic machinegun!!

 

i'd actually like some info on this matter also.

 

in jersey, u just have to have 3 repair attempts for the same concern for something to be a lemon or it has to be in the shop for like 20(?) consecutive days for a repair.

the items that fall into this category are:

moonroof creak
pass side seatbelt retract
VSA light "glow"
pass seat occupied creak
driver side belt molding warp

i think that's all off the top of my head. the car is barely 18 months old. had less problems with my bronco in 92 and i didn't pay over $30K for it.


SilverBulletCLS,

these laws do change somewhat from state to state. the only other issue i am not 100% certain about is the resolution. the two options are either a brand new model of ur car, in this case a 2003 cl-s, or a refund of the purchase price. trying to find out to whose discretion is the decision left.

 

Rattles and Creaks can be used to "lemon" a car? What the hell?
I think you listed only one slightly serious problem, acuraboy.
Lemon Laws will be stated on your State's Web-site somewhere.

OT: My dad had a '90 Bronco, that thing was a POS. I think he spent over $4K to keep it running to 100K miles... It also creaked and rattled like an arthritic asthmatic.

 

Lemon laws are designed to help people with SAFETY problems with a car that keep it off the roads.
Items like Engine, Transmission, Brakes, Steering & Electronic failures.

Your list of complaints seems PETTY at best.
It sounds like you’re trying to get rid of the car for other reasons and blaming it on the squeaks, rattles & loose molding.

GET REAL !!!!

Shawn S

 

im with shawn S on this one, that list of complaints is a joke. they will laugh in your face...your car has no REAL safety defects or mechanical failures....you cant lemon law a car for that stuff....dont even waste your time....we all hate the rattles and so forth but we cant lemon law the car for it..if we could, acura would have HUNDREDS of lemon CL's sitting at their factory because of squeaks and rattles..

 

I wish I could lemon my car for the shit-ass paint job...

 

from http://www.lemonlaw.com/njstatute.html

The New Jersey Lemon Law applies to new cars, both purchased and leased, which suffer a nonconformity; a defect or condition, which substantially impairs the use, value or safety; that cannot be repaired after three attempts by an authorized manufacturer's dealership. This nonconformity must first occur within the first 24 months or 18,000 miles, whichever comes first. The New Jersey Lemon Law also applies to vehicles that are in the shop for repair twenty (20) or more calendar days during the first year.


the VSA light issue involves the breakdown in the integrity of the IP assembly under normal operating tempertures. if the seat belt does not retract properly it cannot be presumer to be a fully functional seat belt. a creaking seat exhibits lack of integrity in the construction of the seat - and logically a possible reduction in the performance of the seat in a crash situation. likewise, a creak in the moonroof assembly exhibits some compromised structure or mechanism in it which may also prove to be dangerous in a crash situation.

it may "sound like i'm trying to get rid of the car for other reasons and blaming it on the squeaks, rattles & loose molding" because a car with this poor a build a quality for this price has to be indicative of some other areas of poor manufacture. look how long it took for honda to admit the transmission issue. the last time i went in for a seat belt retract issue, the service writer flat out told me that "it's normal" for these cars. all of the above concerns are legit because they do involve safety. it isn't as immediate as a transmission or brake but consider what else in the IP breaks down under normal operating temps; what happens when my kid slams into the seat belt that decides to retract late (if at all) in an accident; when seat has too much play in it from all that creaking and doesn't perform as expected in an accident; when the glass gets too lose.

i don't know how u guys don't see things like seats, glass and stuff basically melting in ur IP as safety issues.

 

http://mylemon.com/NJ_Lemon_Law_Statute.html

 

i thought the only chance i had of declaring my car a lemon would be if the tranny went 3 times...hmm....those situations you described seem a little..umm...what's the word...BUT..it could happen...good luck with it...i have most of the problems you described too, what dealership in Jersey did you get your car from?

 

acuraboy,

Good luck with that.
The only item REMOTELY safety related on your list is the seatbelt issue.

And if you’re talking about them not retracting when you get OUT of the car then THAT item is moot too.
It’s your responsibility to adjust the seatbelt so it fits properly before you pull out on the road.
As long as this can be done it doesn’t matter how it “hangs” when the car is OFF.

Shawn S

 

I'm lemon lawing my CLS. My arbitration is in December. It's been in the shop (i.e. out of service) for 1.5 months this year, and therefore qualifies for the PA State Lemon Law.

I do regret doing this however. I like my car alot, but I had just unloaded a 1999 Chevy Tahoe that was a lemon before I got my Acura, so it was a knee jerk reaction when my tranny went. I thought oh great, another American made POS. The problem is, once you set a lawsuit in motion, the only way to stop it is to pay off the lawyers out of your own pocket (which I'm not about to do). They typically get thier money from the settlement, and if you lose, they get nothing...so if I continue, there is no cost to me...but honestly...unless they offer me a trade on a six speed...I don't mind if I lose.

 

yes but the mechanism that retracts it when one leaves the car is the same mechanism that retracts the belt when one enters the car and is a part of the same mechanism that retracts the belt in a collision. i don't think the mechanism knows to work properly when someone is sitting in the seat and then slack off (pun intended) when someone is not sitting in the seat.


as for which dealer i purchased it from...uhm...errr...ehhh....my legal advisor has suggested against divulging any such information....seriously SicK TypeS....i'm just too paranoid about talking about it before its over. no offense

 

good luck with all that...keep us updated...i would lemon my CL and trade for a 6 spd. without even thinking about it...unless, that AWD 280 HP CL-type-S comes out soon...

 

i bought my 03CLS6MT july 31st of 2002. it is now october 21st and on my third clutch assembly. this damn car has had a transmission issue for a while now, my first clutch went out when i was driving, it wouldn't shift. it was a serious issue because i could have forseeably seen the junk-end of a mack truck. now, about a week ago, i noticed my clutch was turning into shit. i couldn't shift into gears easily and the clutch pressure was inconsistant...so it's being replaced. if my shit goes out again, i'm getting a new CLS6MT

 

Guys don't forget that it is not a simple Lemon Lawing ur car and get a new one just like that. I once thought that it was that simple. There is a usage fee that is taxed on the MSRP (I could be wrong and it could be the purchase price) of the car.

Example a 2001 that has 40K on the odometer.

( 120,000 / $30,000 ) x 40,000


120,000 miles is given to assume the max life of a vehicle.

$30,000 is given to assume that the MSRP of the car/vehicle.

40,000 is given for the miles on the odometer.

Calculated that is $10,000 that u would owe the manufacture if u wished to Lemon Law the 2001 and purchase a 2003.

But there are a few questions that I would like to ask all of u that either are or have Lemon Lawed ur vehicle:

Do u have to hire an attouney?

Why would a Lemon Law suit go before a board?

If the Lemon Lawsuit goes before a board can u also ask for
reimbursement for the usage fee to purchase the same car?


Tnx


Juker008

 

i'm basing my answers as per NJ Law:

56:12-32. Refunds

a. If, during the period specified in section 3 of this act, the manufacturer or its dealer is unable to repair or correct a nonconformity within a reasonable time, the manufacturer shall accept return of the motor vehicle from the consumer. The manufacturer shall provide the consumer with a full refund of the purchase price of the original motor vehicle including any stated credit or allowance for the consumer's used motor vehicle, the cost of any options or other modifications arranged, installed, or made by the manufacturer or its dealer within 30 days after the date of original delivery, and any other charges or fees including, but not limited to, sales tax, license and registration fees, finance charges, reimbursement for towing and reimbursement for actual expenses incurred by the consumer for the rental of a motor vehicle equivalent to the consumer's motor vehicle and limited to the period during which the consumer's motor vehicle was out of service due to a nonconformity, less a reasonable allowance for vehicle use. Nothing herein shall be construed to preclude a manufacturer from making an offer to replace the vehicle in lieu of a refund; except that the consumer may, in any case, reject a manufacturer's offer of replacement and demand a refund. Refunds shall be made to the consumer and lienholder, if any, as their interests appear on the records of ownership maintained by the Director of the Division of Motor Vehicles. In the event that the consumer accepts an offer to replace the motor vehicle in lieu of a refund, it shall be the manufacturer's responsibility to insure that any lien on the returned motor vehicle is transferred to the replacement vehicle.



so no usage fees here in jersey...accoding to this, if u had CT stuff installed within a month of purchase by the dealer u get reimbursed for that as well.



typically yes. from the sheer nature of the case matter, these cases don't qualify for small claims court which i believe is the only place u can "safely" represent urself. also, much of consumer protection laws include in them stipulations that the offending party (if found guilty) must cover all court and attorney fees. basically, in jersey, it costs u nothing to lemon a car.


most lemon cases in jersey don't go before a judge. more often than not these cases are resolved out of court. this may be the board u r speaking of...some type of mediation board.


well again, i don't think that there's a usage fee in jersey so i am not familiar with it.

 

i hope those NJ laws are similar to CA law... acuraboy: thanx for the info, you're well informed

 

Yeah, well I hope Acura replaces that trim before it causes a major accident on the freeway.
I know if they hadn't fixed my rattling sunroof I could've been driven to distraction and gone off the side of the road.

 

CLSter: hey those were valid points, his logic is strong... mocking's funny tho =P

 

so i guess u've never had u're windshield hit by anything at 80+ mph on the freeway. FYI, these explanations were the ones used by my friend's lawyer when he lemoned his Jag (i forget the model - the V12 just prior to the current body style). his main complaints were a peice of molding and rear window rattle. the molding eventually came flying off on the highway. the best part was that as the case was in mediation his rear window had shattered and blew out of the rear of the car while he was driving a client home from a dinner.

as a footnote, lemon laws are no intended solely for "safety" defects. they are laws offering car buyers relief (as by repair, replacement, or refund) for defects detected during a specified period after purchase.

 

this is true....seriously...its kinda sad because as soon as the pass seat starts to creak it gets dead silent in my car cause my friends realize how aggravating itis to me and they get scared to say anything which is pretty stupid because that makes the creaking seem that much louder. i need to find noisier friends.

 

acuraboy: i find 3 15" subs in the trunk bumpin very effective =D

 

LOL...thanks. and if the amp ever blows out there's always the foolproof: one hungry baby

 

U know I thought of the same thing when I started looking into teh Lemon Law. I thought that the seller would have to refund teh full purchase price of the vehicle. And when I looked into it I read the same thing for Fla. law, that there is no usage fee. But futher investigation showed that there is a usage fee, and I do believe that there is one is every state. The only reason why I believe this is because it just wouldn't make sense to the manufacturer to allow 'no usage fee' in a couple of states. It just sounds odd to me on how they would be able to justify which state does and which one doesn't. I am not tyring to disprove u at all, but possibly u might be mistaken. If u every have the time call up the NJ Lemon Law hotline and speak with a representitive, or PM me the # and I'll call. Like I said I am not tring to discredit u, I just want to disprove myself and question why NJ is left out.


But the question that I want to ask u that u sort-of answered before is, what make a Lemon Lawsuit go before a hearing board? Does that only happen if the manufacturer feels that the car that u are tying to Lemon Law is not justified? I mean the car clearly follows Lemon Law guidlines, so why would the manufacture want to contest that?

Also do u know or can u find out if it is possible to have the manufacture cover the cost of the usage fee (takign my state for example).

About the parts, true if parts were installed (I believe) a month after purchase of the vehicle, manufacture must reimburse the buyer. But do remember that the manufacturer, not only coveres the cost of the aftermarket parts, but also buys them off of the buyer of the car. Sry not a win win situation.

About the attourney, someone would only have to hire one if the manufacture decided that this should be resolved in a court of law?


Tnx

Juker008

 

Damn Juker....
looks like u really did ur homework. spoke to a lawyer about the points u raised and she was like. "WOW! how do u know this stuff?"

so here's the deal. u r absolutely correct about usage fees. in cases where there are "serious problems" with an engine or tranny then the fee is usually waived. it seems that this fee is waived for the most extreme of cases. in those cases where usage fees are applied it is typically minimal at best. its basically a depreciation according to mileage, accidents and such. sounds rather fair but it doesn't account for the frustration in dealing with the POS car in the first place. u cannot sue for the recovery of a usage fee. imagine if every lemon law resulted in full refund of purchase price. probably cause lots of manufacturers to go broke....probably make lots of manufacturers be a lot more exacting in their engineering too. basically, lawmakers deemed it unfair to give someone a "free" car if they won a lemon law case and had put 10's of thousands of miles and not maintained the vehicle and been in several accidents.

i don't think u can file a lemon w/o a lawyer. it susually not sound to do so in a case with such a considerable financial claim. there are lots of firms out ther that specialize in this stuff. like most consumer law matters, lemon law includes verbiage to include in the claim the payment by the manufacturer (if u do win ur case) of all court and attorney fees. again, if u don't win ur case, most of these lemon law specialists don't charge u anything. typically they won' take ur case if they don't think they'll win it anyway.

as for the board u spoke of, this is how i understand it. the lawyer takes ur case. s/he writes a letter to the manufacturer with their intent to file and states the concerns that the case is based in. the manufacturer then has like 2 weeks to review/remedy the concern(s). if nothing is done, then the case goes before a mediation board in an effort to not tie up the courts. this board does lots of back and forth between the lawyer and the manufacturer. MORE TIME THAN NOT, the manufacturer will not take the course to court and the case will be settled out of court.


let me know if this helps or if i missed anything.

 

I lemon law'd a car here in florida in 90. I had driven the car for 16 months and over 20k miles. The AC never worked right, the lights would flash on there own, etc. A real POS. I filed the lemon law against the dealer. I had to go before an arbitration board. The dealer was there with a lawyer, I had none. I presented my case along with all the repair attempts. Members of the board wanted to go for a ride and see for themselves. I took them for a ride. We got back, they ruled in my favor. I received 16 months x monthly payment back plus all my expenses for filing. No usage fees or anything. The dealer got the car back and I got a nice fat check. The car went to auction and was sold to another dealer, who in turn sold it to an unsuspecting buyer. The car was ultimately involved in some drug related activity several years later. I know this as I had the sheriff calling me asking questions.

At any rate, if you have a strong case and the problem is repeatable it should be a slam dunk.

 

Usage Waved??? I never heard of the usage fee being waved even in the case of a serious problem. I figured out that all the Lemon Law allows is for the user to get out of a lemon. In other words if everyone knew that the CLSs had serious tranny problems no one would even think of purchasing a CLS. So in that case u would never be able to trade in ur car. So what the Lemon Law allows is for the car to be "maditorily traded in".

What I would like to know is how is that usage fee waved? It would sound fair to have the full purchase price refunded if the engine keeps going, the car catches fire (BMW), brakes fail (CLS), or even the tranny going. Because those things can either leave u stranded on I-666, loss of life due to fire, or in my case (it could have happened) having the tranny down shift into 1st gear on the freeway, doing 60mph and have an 18 wheeler 5 cars behind me doing 80. But also in the same case is there are people out there that would never change their oil, beat the living FK out of their cars and Lemon Law it. Now that is BS and unfair.

So hit me back.


Juker008

 

Have you all really had many problems with your CL's? I'm thinking of buying a 03 6spd. Partly because I trust the Honda/Acura reliability. I'd heard about the automatic tranny problems, but hoped the new manual would be fine.

But as far as rattles and general build issues, does it seem to be a general problem? (more so than other new cars?)

 

depends what u'r willing to deal with for X amount of money. ur rear deck will rattle. ur seat belts willnot always retract fully. ur moonroof will rattle. this is just an average, there are plenty of other issues out there. some are just more tolerant than others.

 

See if the dealer will repaint. Just got mine back last week. Raise some hell and they may do it

 

What about the rest of you? Do you have chronic reliability or rattling issues?

The CL would be my first new car. I got my current car with 50k miles on it, so I wasn't nitpicky about any little things wrong with it. But if I'm paying $30k for a new car, I'd expect a little more from it.

 

All in all its still a pretty good car. I had a 97 benz I bought brand new that ended up being a piece of shit, and they are expensive as hell to fix. You won't find another car that has as much as this one does for the price. Besides, every car has some flaws. Even the most expensive.

 

Despite all the bitching these cars do have above average build quality and reliability. Take a look at sites like MSNs car site, Consumer Reports, etc etc.
Even the tranny problem affects only 2% of us; according to Honda.

 

It will be real interesting to see just how that % climbs after these cars all start getting 60k or so miles on them. Think about it, if the 3rd gear clutch packs are bad, they are likely all going to be bad. Especially if they have been bad for 3 years (01, 02, 03). Sounds more like a matter of when, not if it will take a dump.

 

Does that just apply to the automatics?