BlackV62K2

For the last while I've been trying to get my daily drivibility back with my 440cc RC injectors, Aeromotive 1:1 FPR & Emanage setup. I've had next to little success trying to do so. I'm running version 1.49/1.49 on the Emanage. I've tried the version that Serge (02AV6) and it didn't change anything. I know some of you guys are running similar setups so maybe you can help. Keep in mind I own an Accord and not a CL-S

Currently I have all my Emanage maps zero'd out and the injector correction ratio set to 300/440, fuel pressure @ idle is set to 42psi.

Here are some problems I'm experiencing with the setup above:

- When I let off the throttle while crusing the AFR will go from 14.7 to 10.5-11.0. It will take a few seconds for it to slowly climb back to 14.7. Is this normal?

- When I'm crusing at low speeds and I have my foot on the throttle < 5-10% and apply a little more throttle, the AFR will go really lean (17.0s to -- -- -- on my AEM wideband).

- Under quick acceleration but keeping the RPM under 3K, I see the AFR lean out to mid 15s

Some might suggest that I set the fuel pressure to 38-40 psi. I've tried that and the car doesn't seem to like it. It would always throw a CEL during cold startups. It will throw random misfire codes in almost all the cylinders.

Another suggestion might to increase the injector correction ratio closer to 1. I've ran 320/440 and it was too rich I think. On the highway, the AFR was all over the place. It would start @ 14.7, then richen up to 12.0-12.5 and then go super lean (17.0 to -- -- --) to the point where the car bucks. This happens while my foot is steady on the throttle @ cruising speeds on the highway.

Another problem I've seen when I set my fuel pressure to 45psi is the car will go really lean and buck when cruising @ 37MPH (around 1500 RPM). This only occurs when I drive the car after a cold startup and it'll only happen for a little while. Once I drive long enough, that problem goes away.

It seems no matter what I do, the car doesn't want to drive right with this setup. Any of you have any other ideas that might help?

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

does your FPR have different size orifices, the AEMs come with 3 sizes, and they are there for almost exactly what your talking about, when you let off the throttle, the fpr will either be outflowing or underflowing, so it causes weird conditions.

BlackV62K2

http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/pdetail.php?prod=10

That's what I have and it doesn't have different orifices.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

that FPR may be a bit overkill...

here is a quote from the AEM instructions:
"A unique feature of the AEM adjustable pressure regulator is that the discharge port in the regular is changeable. This allows the user to tailor the regulator return volume to match their fuel pump. A common problem that occurs when using a fixed orifice in a "universal" regulator is that the fuel pressure cannot be effectively controlled when the fuel pump volume is significantly higher than stock. In the case of too small of a discharge orifice, there is large pressure spike associated with rapid deceleration because the orifice cannot flow enough fuel when the diaphragm is fully deflected to the open position. This causes a momentary rich condition, which may lead to a rough idle quality until the pressure stabilizes. Conversely if the discharge orifice is too large the adjustment is difficult because the response of the fuel flow out of the orifice is too rapid which makes the adjustment screw too sensitive."

BlackV62K2

Hmm Serge runs that FPR without any issues. My tuner also recommended that FPR to me.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

that was my only suggestion. lol. good luck.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

What do your data logs show?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Serge is running that same 1:1 FPR? He isn't using a rising rate regulator?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

How much boost are you running?

BlackV62K2

No, he's running the same 1:1 FPR. I asked him what he was running before I got mine. I'm boosting about 8.5psi with the CL-S HBP + smaller SC shaft pulley (3.5). I'll have to record the real-time data from Emanage to find out. Any initial ideas of what the problems could be though?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Your emanage tables are completely zero'd out? Meaning you aren't adding any additional pulse width other than what the factory ECU programs?

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

i thought you needed rising rate FPR for boosted applications...

Allout

The rising rate FPR is to artificially increase the size/flow of the stock injectors - not necessary with the larger injectors.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

You don't need it if you can control pulse width and have larger injectors.

For example. I believe the stock FPR on a N/A car hits 55psi at WOT.

The rising rate unit from Comptech adjusted properly hits 100psi at WOT

A 240cc injector at 100psi is the equivalent of a 324cc injector.

With control over pulse width you should be able to supply enough fuel at redline at WOT with a 1:1 FPR and 440cc injectors.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Why do you have the injector size set to 300/440? Stock injectors aren't 300

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

I'm assuming that the figures you are posting as to where you are setting fuel pressure are w/o vacuum?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

All these recent threads really make me want to pull the trigger on starting up a project.

BlackV62K2

Yes, all my Emanage maps are zero'd out and it's just using the factory settings from the ECU. I haven't and don't plan on boosting till I get good daily drivibility. I keep the car under 3K for now. The injector correction size needs to be played around with. Having the injection size @ 240/440 (Accord stock size) will cause the car to run really lean. I've played with settings from 260->320. Anything below 300 will throw a CEL (misfire codes) during cold startups. Anything above 310 makes the car runs really rich. I've checked the coil packs and those are fine. I'm going to replace the spark plugs and do a leak-down test while the blower is out.

Thimjin was running his RC 440cc injectors CF @ 340/440 even though stock CL-S injectors are 250cc claimed by RC (270cc). Even Serge was running his CF @ 310/370 with his S2K injectors. For some reason, if I go pass 310, the car will just drive even worst. Letting off the throttle will drop the AFR to flat 10's.

Plus this problem:
"I've ran 320/440 and it was too rich I think. On the highway, the AFR was all over the place. It would start @ 14.7, then richen up to 12.0-12.5 and then go super lean (17.0 to -- -- --) to the point where the car bucks. This happens while my foot is steady on the throttle @ cruising speeds on the highway."

I'm not exactly sure how they're running such high injector CF ratio without daily drivibility issues. Thimjin is running 40psi FP and Serge is running 38psi though. I've tried FP from 38-45psi and can't find a happy spot for the car.

That's correct, rising rate FPR is used for stock injectors but having larger injectors and 1:1 FPR will keep the fuel pressure @ a safe place under boost. I believe when I was using the CT FPR, the FP was as high as 100psi.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Sounds to me like you need to tune the car.

Just programming the correction factor isn't going to get the car to run smoothly with injectors that are 75+% larger

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

I don't know why you're going rich when you let off the throttle. It's usually the exact opposite. You go lean.

BlackV62K2

The 42psi FP @ idle is with the vac hose connected to the FPR.

BlackV62K2

I've already tuned had the car tuned on the dyno so the car is great under WOT conditions. Dyno tuning is only good for 3K -> redline. I had one session of street tuning to get good daily drivibility with no luck. So I've been keeping the car below 3K to try and figure out how to get my car to drive like it used to.

I've messed with the airflow map to try and prevent the car from pissing out fuel when I let off the throttle. It didn't seem to help off throttle much and made accelerating from a stop more lean.



I've played with all the cells with -5. I kept the first 3 cells at zero because I was trying to get rid of the cold start misfires. I've tried numbers from -1 to -8 within those cells.

I've wonder if my RC injectors are somehow messed up. I asked my tuner if that could be the case and he said RC test all the injectors before sending them out. So maybe the FPR is faulty? The FP seem to hold up fine though. I can set it to whatever FP drive around (to and from work) and the FP will still be the same at idle. I only have a FP gauge under the hood so I cant see what it's doing while driving.

I'm running out of ideas

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

am i the only one that thinks 440cc injectors are overkill for your application? from what i gather your just a regular 3.0 accord w/ a blower kit?

BlackV62K2

We used the injector size calculator on RC's site and 440cc seems to be the right size for 280-300whp. I thought it was too big at first and the Emanage should be able to handle it. Now I kinda wish I went with 370's.

ThinJim

iTrader: (3)

440's are fine and the aeromotive fpr that you are using is fine as well. For my car, I idle at 40-42psi fuel pressure and at wot at 10lbs boost i see 58-60 total fuel pressure with 11.8 afr give or take a little depending on climate conditions. I'm also using the Greddy pressure sensor. at idle my afr is about 14.2 and fluctuates. I also get a code and just reset the ecu every couple weeks, it's gonna happen you have to live with it. it's the trade off when using the pressure sensor as there are not enough tables to finely tune to a flat ratio and also the 440's will charateristically just run a little richer. My correction table is set to 0.591, for some reason it doesn't show the before and after for the ratio.

what fuel pump are you using?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

I made 300whp on stock injectors and ran rich as hell.

How much boost are you seeing?

BlackV62K2

^ But you were also using a rising rate FPR and probably had a really high FP to make it run like large injectors. The beauty of this setup is to reduce the FP back to a safe level and use less injector duty cycle. Like Thinjim said, he was only seeing a max of 60psi FP. My max boost of 8.5psi.

Thinjim, I'm using the fuel pump that comes with the CT SC kit.

BlackV62K2

Here's a chart I made for myself so I can document my progress when I make changes. The top half is keeping the before injector size the stock size (240cc) the same and playing with the after injector size. The bottom half is the opposite. Look @ a CF factor of 0.75 for both, the injector size difference is different. Now I'm wondering if the Emanage uses that size difference to calculate the injector latency from larger injectors.

Here's a list of fixes for Emanage software/hardware:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/.../message/12324

1.49 Injector injection ratio indication correction Correcting the timing
which recognizes the injection period of the injector.

The Emanage software/hardware version you're using doesn't show the before/after size when download the data back to your PC. I was using that version for awhile too but now I'm using 1.49/1.49.

0.591 injector CF is pretty low, for me anyways. As you can see in the chart above that's would be running 260/440. When I try to run anything below 300/440 (0.68 CF), my car will throw misfire codes during cold startups. The AFR initially be around 14's then drop to 16's and slowly climb to 14.7 but you can hear (thumping or misfire). It will drive fine though once it's warmed up. I can see having a lower injector CF will probably fix my issue of the car pissing fuel when I let off the throttle but then what do I do about the cold start misfires?

BlackV62K2

Thinjim, just out of curiosity, with such a low injector correction factor, did you have to add fuel with the airflow map in the 0-25% TP & 0-3000RPM ranges? I thought I remember you running 340/440 when you first got your 440cc injectors installed. I was reading some thread you posted and how to you had that "fuel cutting out" feeling with a low injector CF.

My airflow map is throttle position on the Y-axis and RPM on the X-axis. For my Additional Injection Map, it's Pressure Sensor (V) on the Y-axis (starting @ 2.00) and RPM on the X-axis. I'm using the stock pressure sensor btw. I'm not sure if that makes a difference since you're using the Greddy pressure sensor.

I don't start to add fuel in the injection map until 2.60 V.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

The beauty of my setup was that it was simple and it worked.

ThinJim

iTrader: (3)

The tuner I used did use the 260/440 correction numbers, I did have a different set of number in before I went to him because of surging etc. Every number I tried I still got surging to some degree, some more than others.

I get the rough start occasionally, one thing I found that helped is to prime the system several times by turning the key on and off. You can hear the fuel pump on when you turn the ignition key to the on position but only for a few sec, I turn it on and off several times and on cold starts it seems to help. Also on those cold starts after priming a few time, be sure to tap the gas pedal slightly when the car first starts, this eleminates that rough misfire that your talking about.

I have the greddy pressure sensor, it allows you to adjust the injection cycle while the motor sees vacuum, pretty much idle speed to the onset of boost.

how do I make a screen shot of my settings and I'll try to host them.

It's so hard to find a tuner who understands the emanage, but one very popular place to look is to the dodge srt boys. they like the emanage and possibly in your area you could find a good tuner from one of them.

ThinJim

iTrader: (3)

figured it out, here is a timing map that shows additional cells.

ThinJim

iTrader: (3)

here is a shot of the parameter settings i use. I no longer use the sub injector map although it's checked.

BlackV62K2

Are you adding any fuel at idle or are you just using the factory ECU setting + injector CF? If you are adding fuel, are you using the Airflow Map or Additional Injection Map? I'm assuming the Greddy Pressure Sensor allows you to add fuel in the Additional Injection Map even @ idle (VAC) -> WOT.

Are you still experiencing surging issues with 260/440? Here my settings at the moment. I changed it today, resetted the ECU and took it for a spin. It doesn't seem to be dumping fuel when I let off the throttle now. I know it'll throw a CEL (misfire) tomorrow morning when I start the car though. I'll try priming the car like you said. Do you experience rough idles and misfires during cold startups if you don't prime as well?

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Is there a reason why your voltage clamp is set at 2.7? With the standard Comptech kit you should be at 2.84

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Doesn't the e-manage have the ability to increase the idle RPM? Maybe bumping it up a few hundred RPM would help your rough idle problems?

BlackV62K2

2.7 voltage clamp is what Serge told me to use. I believe there was a dicussion about why the voltage clamp is different than what Comptech uses on this forum. I forgot who was testing the different voltage settings. I'm not aware of any settings in the Emanage program that would allow me to bump up the idle RPM.

Forgot those that are wondering why all my maps are zero'd out, it's b/c I'm just staying under 3K to try and get good drivibility from the daily driving ranges. I have another map from when I dyno tuned the car.

ThinJim

iTrader: (3)

Yes, fuel is being added across the board and the airflow adjustment map has been worked over and that cost me so have to keep it close to the vest.


Are you using the emanage blue or ultimate? Your parameter setting window has an acceleration map and mine does not, or is this an upgrade with the new firmware?

BlackV62K2

Yeah, that's with 1.49/1.49 (firmware/software) and I'm using Emanage blue. The acceleration map supposedly helps with the lean spikes under quick acceleration. That's what I got from reading the Emanage thread from srtforums.com. I've never tried it myself though.

So when say you're adding fuel across the map, you mean even at idle (0% throttle) in the airflow map? The only time I add fuel is in the additional injection map and that's only under boost conditions. I use the airflow map to take out fuel in the mid-range under WOT. I'm just kind of confused since you have the ability to add fuel at idle (0% throttle) in both airflow and additional injection map.

Oh, don't worry about not sharing your maps. I didn't come here expecting someone to just give me there map settings. I know how expensive tuning cost. I've already spent a lot on dyno tuning and street tuning on this setup and I wouldnt want to just "give" them away.

ThinJim

iTrader: (3)

From about 1500rpm and up the airflow map increases with throttle. you have to remember that although your boost guage may be indicating a vacuum condition, while your accelerating, your motor is seeing the onset of boost. So with mine, the numbers go up at throttle position and rpm increase.

The tuning aspect of this is well beyond my scope of understanding. I have fiddled with it before this tune and figured out with some sucess on making some fuel adjustments. I was having a slight problem on vtec changeover, a lean condition for a brief second, so i added fuel about 300rpm before the changeover point. Lets say you see a lean spot at 5800rpm, you don't just add fuel to the map at 5800, you have to lead into it. the exhaust gases travel quite a distance from the clyinders to the 02sensor, so the lean condition occurred before the info was sent. Just something to think about.

I think you should find a good tuner and let it be set and leave it alone once your happy with it. I did see that your using a 50/50 mix, that will surely show a rich condition. If you tune with the 50/50 mix, be sure to never turn it off or bad things may happen.