headers
03-23-2002, 07:30 PM
#2
Team Owner
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I myself wouldn’t pay more then 750-800 for headers.
If you want the Comptech ones, your gonna pay about 1250 PLUS installed.
Just not worth it in MY book and we don’t have any other options right now.
Shawn S
If you want the Comptech ones, your gonna pay about 1250 PLUS installed.
Just not worth it in MY book and we don’t have any other options right now.
Shawn S
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03-23-2002, 09:59 PM
#8
Originally posted by Shawn S
I myself wouldn’t pay more then 750-800 for headers.
If you want the Comptech ones, your gonna pay about 1250 PLUS installed.
Just not worth it in MY book and we don’t have any other options right now.
Shawn S
I myself wouldn’t pay more then 750-800 for headers.
If you want the Comptech ones, your gonna pay about 1250 PLUS installed.
Just not worth it in MY book and we don’t have any other options right now.
Shawn S
03-23-2002, 11:52 PM
#9
Suzuka Master
I paid around $1100 and I've never regretted it. If you have ever suffered from poorly made headers, you will appreciate these.
The quality is excellent and the "you get what you pay for" applies for this item.
A comparison of torque curves is all that is required to determine your need. The stock rolls off towards 6K and drops like a rock. The Comptech header's keep and increase the torque curve across the range (in dynojet sessions), and the new torque peak is sitting around 6K.
In a stock car -- despite claims and butt dyno comments to the contrary -- the acceleration is greatest in the 3.5-5K range. With the headers, the acceleration is maintained from 3.5- to 6.5K-rpms; that's a 1.5K usable torque/acceleration band (stock) compared to a 3K usable torque/acceleration band after the headers.
IMO, the CAI also works well with the headers and light wheels.
I had no trouble noticing the difference in the car’s performance and really shows its merit in fourth gear and in quarter mile runs.
Dyno Graph included:
The quality is excellent and the "you get what you pay for" applies for this item.
A comparison of torque curves is all that is required to determine your need. The stock rolls off towards 6K and drops like a rock. The Comptech header's keep and increase the torque curve across the range (in dynojet sessions), and the new torque peak is sitting around 6K.
In a stock car -- despite claims and butt dyno comments to the contrary -- the acceleration is greatest in the 3.5-5K range. With the headers, the acceleration is maintained from 3.5- to 6.5K-rpms; that's a 1.5K usable torque/acceleration band (stock) compared to a 3K usable torque/acceleration band after the headers.
IMO, the CAI also works well with the headers and light wheels.
I had no trouble noticing the difference in the car’s performance and really shows its merit in fourth gear and in quarter mile runs.
Dyno Graph included:
03-24-2002, 07:19 AM
#10
Just as a counter point, here's the data directly from Comptech which proves you aren't getting any real gains except for the very top of VTEC range.
The one difference being if you look at EricL's dyno graph,you can see he's getting about 10-15 additional torque throughout the rev band and that is what he's feeling when he tells you it accelerates better "from 3.5- to 6.5K-rpms". 10-15 torque is a good amount for our low-torque and low-displacement car. It's up to you whether or not you see $1200 worth of performance there, though.
What comptech should have done is posted another graph showing the torque gains, because judging by horsepower alone, you REALLY look like you're wasting your money. Considering the torque also, it's up in the air.
The one difference being if you look at EricL's dyno graph,you can see he's getting about 10-15 additional torque throughout the rev band and that is what he's feeling when he tells you it accelerates better "from 3.5- to 6.5K-rpms". 10-15 torque is a good amount for our low-torque and low-displacement car. It's up to you whether or not you see $1200 worth of performance there, though.
What comptech should have done is posted another graph showing the torque gains, because judging by horsepower alone, you REALLY look like you're wasting your money. Considering the torque also, it's up in the air.
03-24-2002, 02:02 PM
#11
Happy CL-S Pilot
The dman thing about headers, is that Mike Dyno shown above is the best Dyno I ever saw for Comptech Headers. 
Why is he getting an extra 10-15 lbft all across? While comptech shows Nothing, nada!
It seems that Mike got a "Free RES"with his headers.
Just look at Mike 4500 rpm. There is 15 HP gaing compared to just 5.5 HP from Comptech 's graph. That is at least 3X gains over comptechs claim.
Any other Headers' Dyno we can can compare?
Why is he getting an extra 10-15 lbft all across? While comptech shows Nothing, nada!
It seems that Mike got a "Free RES"with his headers.
Just look at Mike 4500 rpm. There is 15 HP gaing compared to just 5.5 HP from Comptech 's graph. That is at least 3X gains over comptechs claim.
Any other Headers' Dyno we can can compare?
03-24-2002, 03:32 PM
#12
Cost Drivers!!!!
Originally posted by Nashua_Night_Hawk
The dman thing about headers, is that Mike Dyno shown above is the best Dyno I ever saw for Comptech Headers.
Why is he getting an extra 10-15 lbft all across? While comptech shows Nothing, nada!
It seems that Mike got a "Free RES"with his headers.
Just look at Mike 4500 rpm. There is 15 HP gaing compared to just 5.5 HP from Comptech 's graph. That is at least 3X gains over comptechs claim.
Any other Headers' Dyno we can can compare?
The dman thing about headers, is that Mike Dyno shown above is the best Dyno I ever saw for Comptech Headers.
Why is he getting an extra 10-15 lbft all across? While comptech shows Nothing, nada!
It seems that Mike got a "Free RES"with his headers.
Just look at Mike 4500 rpm. There is 15 HP gaing compared to just 5.5 HP from Comptech 's graph. That is at least 3X gains over comptechs claim.
Any other Headers' Dyno we can can compare?
03-24-2002, 04:30 PM
#13
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Re: headers
Originally posted by typeS
how much should i pay for headers, the most anyone on here would pay
how much should i pay for headers, the most anyone on here would pay
I paid $800 INSTALLED, and thats what they are worth.
They are TOTALLY WORTH EVERY PENNY of that $800!!!
03-24-2002, 04:44 PM
#14
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by Nashua_Night_Hawk
The dman thing about headers, is that Mike Dyno shown above is the best Dyno I ever saw for Comptech Headers.
Why is he getting an extra 10-15 lbft all across? While comptech shows Nothing, nada!
It seems that Mike got a "Free RES"with his headers.
Just look at Mike 4500 rpm. There is 15 HP gaing compared to just 5.5 HP from Comptech 's graph. That is at least 3X gains over comptechs claim.
Any other Headers' Dyno we can can compare?
The dman thing about headers, is that Mike Dyno shown above is the best Dyno I ever saw for Comptech Headers.
Why is he getting an extra 10-15 lbft all across? While comptech shows Nothing, nada!
It seems that Mike got a "Free RES"with his headers.
Just look at Mike 4500 rpm. There is 15 HP gaing compared to just 5.5 HP from Comptech 's graph. That is at least 3X gains over comptechs claim.
Any other Headers' Dyno we can can compare?
03-24-2002, 06:50 PM
#15
Originally posted by EricL
I had no trouble noticing the difference in the car’s performance and really shows its merit in fourth gear and in quarter mile runs.
I had no trouble noticing the difference in the car’s performance and really shows its merit in fourth gear and in quarter mile runs.
Eric, you ever taken your car to the track ??
I'd sure like to see what you can run the 1/4 in.
I plan on modeling my car after yours.
--------------------------------------------------------------
as far as headers & the cost/benefit analysis.....
25-30hp extra peak HP is not insignificant in this car
When I bought my car a CL-S was $2250 more than a CL-P
That gets 35hp & 15 lb-ft as well as bigger wheels/tires
firmer shocks/springs & rear anti-roll bar.
VTEC kicks in at 4800rpm right ? 6800rpm redline so right
there the real zingy part of the powerband is in a 2k band
260hp at 6100rpm (vs. 225HP @ 5600rpm)
idle is 1000rpm & just tooling around is about 2000rpm
So VTEC is the last 2000rpms when peak HP is made
& 800-1000rpm is idle , that's a 5800rpm powerband with
no major power below 2k so now a 4800rpm powerband
with a 25-30hp peak HP boost above 5000rpm
What's fuel cut off ? 7100rpm
So headers provide a significant boost in 35-40% of the
powerband I'm using 90% of the time I'm driving the car ??
Not a bad deal I think !!
Headers essentially enhance the VTEC & short runner mode which is why most of us bought the Types S anyway , right ???
I dunno, did that rationalization make any sense ???????
03-24-2002, 06:53 PM
#16
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by JRock
Just as a counter point, here's the data directly from Comptech which proves you aren't getting any real gains except for the very top of VTEC range.
What comptech should have done is posted another graph showing the torque gains, because judging by horsepower alone, you REALLY look like you're wasting your money. Considering the torque also, it's up in the air.
Just as a counter point, here's the data directly from Comptech which proves you aren't getting any real gains except for the very top of VTEC range.
What comptech should have done is posted another graph showing the torque gains, because judging by horsepower alone, you REALLY look like you're wasting your money. Considering the torque also, it's up in the air.
The acceleration is directly related to torque and the gear the car is in (with some minor exceptions).
The Comptech folks use a different dyno than the Dynojet -- what this changes, perhaps they know.
A run with a GTECH will show the instantaneous acceleration at any given RPM (so, one can check on where their peak torque is in their current setup).
With the stock car, the "flat part" of the acceleration is from "around" 3.5K to 5K.
With the addition of the headers, that curve is "flattened" and runs from 3.5K to 6.5K
A doubling of the accleration from 5-3.5 = 1.5 vs. 6.5-3.5 = 3 implies that the meaty part of the toque curve is extended from a 1500 rev band to double that (and, yes, it is not perfectly straight -- so that is not what I'm saying).
Here is the torque graph as posted on the Comptech site (in their .pdf file):
03-24-2002, 07:08 PM
#18
Which once again, much like the horsepower chart, looks NOTHING like the gains you get. You're an anomaly as far as we should be concerned. Comptech would obviously not post data that is less than the best they can achieve with their product, therefore your data has to be considered unusual since even they don't see the gains you do with their product.
03-24-2002, 08:02 PM
#19
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by JRock
Which once again, much like the horsepower chart, looks NOTHING like the gains you get. You're an anomaly as far as we should be concerned. Comptech would obviously not post data that is less than the best they can achieve with their product, therefore your data has to be considered unusual since even they don't see the gains you do with their product.
Which once again, much like the horsepower chart, looks NOTHING like the gains you get. You're an anomaly as far as we should be concerned. Comptech would obviously not post data that is less than the best they can achieve with their product, therefore your data has to be considered unusual since even they don't see the gains you do with their product.
BTW -- Mike's car does a 14.2 in the quarter mile with headers, CAI, light wheels, and Toyos. That time is in 70-degree weather (not 20-degree weather). I'll take anomalies like that any day!
03-24-2002, 08:06 PM
#20
Happy CL-S Pilot
Again, we need a another Dyno, CT vs Stock on a broken-in CLS to better judge CT heraders value.
Also, with CAI ($200) + RES ($400) [If an only if it is ever mass produced] most will get better results than the CT headers for less money.
Once another competitor headers being sold at $750-$800, then once again one could think about getting headers.
Still in the waiting game.
Also, with CAI ($200) + RES ($400) [If an only if it is ever mass produced] most will get better results than the CT headers for less money.
Once another competitor headers being sold at $750-$800, then once again one could think about getting headers.
Still in the waiting game.
03-24-2002, 08:22 PM
#21
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Nashua_Night_Hawk
Again, we need a another Dyno, CT vs Stock on a broken-in CLS to better judge CT heraders value.
Also, with CAI ($200) + RES ($400) [If an only if it is ever mass produced] most will get better results than the CT headers for less money.
Once another competitor headers being sold at $750-$800, then once again one could think about getting headers.
Still in the waiting game.
Again, we need a another Dyno, CT vs Stock on a broken-in CLS to better judge CT heraders value.
Also, with CAI ($200) + RES ($400) [If an only if it is ever mass produced] most will get better results than the CT headers for less money.
Once another competitor headers being sold at $750-$800, then once again one could think about getting headers.
Still in the waiting game.
There were quite a few (before and after header dynos), but most of the links are now gone or broken...
You might have luck asking Doug (syncivic) for a graph or two. The only stuff I have on file is the I/H/E vs. I/H/E + MM.
03-25-2002, 02:18 AM
#22
Suzuka Master
Attached find spliced and commented graph -- I used syncivic's two graphs and removed the HP and other "confusing" lines.
The dynos were done in the 90-degree F range with horrible humidity.
The lower graph is a stock TLS torque curve and the blue line above it is the Comptech header equipped car.
I believe that air density is having a large effect on the gains of the headers. The typical gains shown on the 92-degree dyno (presented here), is in the 8 lb-ft (5%) torque improvement area from 3K to 5.5K. The improvement at 6K rpms is close to 17 lb-ft of torque.
I examined Mike's dyno curves and looked at the torque gains with the headers alone. Those torque gains in the same 3k to 5.5K area are closer to 11 lb-ft (6%) torque improvement. The improvement at 6K rpms is close to 20 lb-ft of torque.
Given the results and the difference in air density (due to temperature and humidity, there is a small variation in gains between the two graph sets [Mike’s dynos were done in the 60-70 degree F range and syncivic’s were done in the 90-degree range])
IMO, the gains are more similar than different, and feel free to judge if Mike's graph is that far off (8% vs. 6% and 20 lb-ft vs. 17 lb-ft
The links to previous dynos are not working, but I did find set of dynos from the recent RES work and "spliced" the curves; the tilt, rotation, and scaling are close enough to insure that the data is within at least a few percent (if not better).
A visit to the Comptech site for comparison to gains of the CLS/TLS to CL/TL and Accord will demonstrate that the need for high volume gas flow increases the relative gain of the headers with the more powerful engines...
If any of you have CLS/TLS before and after graphs of Comptech header installs, please post them to the forum. The forum is considering adding a “dyno graph” section, and hopefully, if they are stored at the site, there will be fewer problems with “missing” graphs. At one time we had 3-5 graphs with before and after data – and these are now missing (links are dead).
The dynos were done in the 90-degree F range with horrible humidity.
The lower graph is a stock TLS torque curve and the blue line above it is the Comptech header equipped car.
I believe that air density is having a large effect on the gains of the headers. The typical gains shown on the 92-degree dyno (presented here), is in the 8 lb-ft (5%) torque improvement area from 3K to 5.5K. The improvement at 6K rpms is close to 17 lb-ft of torque.
I examined Mike's dyno curves and looked at the torque gains with the headers alone. Those torque gains in the same 3k to 5.5K area are closer to 11 lb-ft (6%) torque improvement. The improvement at 6K rpms is close to 20 lb-ft of torque.
Given the results and the difference in air density (due to temperature and humidity, there is a small variation in gains between the two graph sets [Mike’s dynos were done in the 60-70 degree F range and syncivic’s were done in the 90-degree range])
IMO, the gains are more similar than different, and feel free to judge if Mike's graph is that far off (8% vs. 6% and 20 lb-ft vs. 17 lb-ft
The links to previous dynos are not working, but I did find set of dynos from the recent RES work and "spliced" the curves; the tilt, rotation, and scaling are close enough to insure that the data is within at least a few percent (if not better).
A visit to the Comptech site for comparison to gains of the CLS/TLS to CL/TL and Accord will demonstrate that the need for high volume gas flow increases the relative gain of the headers with the more powerful engines...
If any of you have CLS/TLS before and after graphs of Comptech header installs, please post them to the forum. The forum is considering adding a “dyno graph” section, and hopefully, if they are stored at the site, there will be fewer problems with “missing” graphs. At one time we had 3-5 graphs with before and after data – and these are now missing (links are dead).
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